CSX-VNT #414 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Billy Back in 1994 when the Newport Beach auction took place Shelby really had no Dodge people with him and the folks he did have working for him wouldn't know a T-1 head from a T-II head. They were Ford guys or tire guys and just didn't have the knowledge of the Dodge cars. I've talked to another prototype car buyer and he too got a "prototype" head in the hatch of his CSX. His conclusion was the same as mine that it was nothing special. Our best guess is that they threw a spare cylinder head into the hatch to "fluff" the car up a little before the Newport Beach auction. To furthur expand on this, when I purchased the last of the Shelby Dodge inventory a few years after that auction there were about a dozen 8v heads included. Not one of them was any sort of prototype 8v head. If there were ever any prototype 8v heads made they certainly would have had a different part number cast into them. So far we haven't seen one. As you can see by the paperwork there are plenty of errors. Things like using the name Chrysler instead of Dodge, using the wrong year of 1987, the mis-spelling of Carrolls name, etc. What I'm trying to point out is that the people writing the descriptions had no clue what they were writing about so the info went uncorrected. Now will I put my life on the line saying 100% no way was there a 16v head in the hatch back in 1994? Nope sure won't but because of another CSX getting a 8v head and because of the heads I got I will stay with I doubt this car came with one. Steve Gotcha. I noticed those mistakes as well. It really appears they did not know what they were doing having even mispelled Carroll's name! lol... Can you talk a bit more about the 94 auction? I was only 9 at the time so a) didn't know anything about it and B) haven't really ever heard much about it since getting into the hobby. Met one guy or so at conventions last few years who went but that is about it. Were you interested in buying any of those prototypes at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSX-VNT #414 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Just realized that when discussing the selling price we were using the gavel price and not the price the buyer is actually writing Barrett Jackson a check for. The gavel price was $8500 but the buyer will be writing BJ a check for $10,098 before he is handed the keys to the car. The additional $1598 is the BJ buyers fee and the AZ tax. Steve It's not too bad of a price for a prototype car though. The only downfall is that it is not street legal, but even in that case, you still have a piece of Shelby Dodge history to restore and make a trailer queen in the worst case, ya know? I also wanted to ask if anyone, especially you Steve, see this car going through BJ as opening the door to further Shelby Dodge vehicles in the next couple of years? Will there be a sharp influx in buyers becoming interested in them/sellers looking to part with them, or will we still just see one maybe in three years, then another a couple after that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StokedShelbyOwner Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 The 'other' CSX Protos' I saw at the 94 auction had some decidedly non-factory stuff going on with them. One black CSX had proably 20 or so thermocouple probes pluged into different places on the motor, at least 3 that I remember had 16V motors (all Lotus based, no Hans Herman headed cars FS that I recall though Carroll's #001 Omni GLHS was there with such but not for sale) This one is pretty generic but if I am following you gib ShelbyMotorsports, that's your point... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 The 'other' CSX Protos' I saw at the 94 auction had some decidedly non-factory stuff going on with them. One black CSX had proably 20 or so thermocouple probes pluged into different places on the motor, at least 3 that I remember had 16V motors (all Lotus based, no Hans Herman headed cars FS that I recall though Carroll's #001 Omni GLHS was there with such but not for sale) This one is pretty generic but if I am following you gib ShelbyMotorsports, that's your point... Alan Alan IIRC most of the 16v prototypes were 1987 CSX's. The CSX you are specifically referring to is still sitting in a garage in the San Fernando Valley last time I saw it. The point I'm probably trying to make is that this BJ CSX sits on the fence. Because it is so generic compared to the 500 CSX cars for 1989 one could say it's more of a pre-production car than p-type. But on the other hand because it was a white 1988 Shadow T-I then upgraded to 89 specs it can also be considered a p-type. I just realized I should have looked for the fuel pump block off plate to see if it was the 88 T-I block or if Shelby changed it to a T-II block. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 It's not too bad of a price for a prototype car though. The only downfall is that it is not street legal, but even in that case, you still have a piece of Shelby Dodge history to restore and make a trailer queen in the worst case, ya know? Billy the problem is that you can't restore it without hurting its value. The crappy red paint job is from Shelby and that is how it must remain to stay original. Besides a repaint would take away the Shelby autograph on the hood. How many Mustang owners would let Carroll etch his signature into the paint? I did see signs that this BJ CSX was taken to at least one car show in 1997. I also noticed that most people at BJ walked right by this car. The only time I saw people stop and look is when I was taking pics and inspecting it. And of course the first question was "What model Ford is this?" And when I say Dodge they just give me the usual deer in the headlights look of "Dodge"??? I also wanted to ask if anyone, especially you Steve, see this car going through BJ as opening the door to further Shelby Dodge vehicles in the next couple of years? Will there be a sharp influx in buyers becoming interested in them/sellers looking to part with them, or will we still just see one maybe in three years, then another a couple after that? Hard to say Billy. My first thoughts are that they guy who sold the Birthday Car on ebay last year should have sold it at BJ going by the price paid for this CSX and the Maserati TC. As for opening the doors? Well I guess so since I'm already thinking about the idea of putting one of my cars at the Vegas BJ event this October. Please don't ask which one as its not for sale right now. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Just realized that when discussing the selling price we were using the gavel price and not the price the buyer is actually writing Barrett Jackson a check for. The gavel price was $8500 but the buyer will be writing BJ a check for $10,098 before he is handed the keys to the car. The additional $1598 is the BJ buyers fee and the AZ tax. Another thought concerning the price. That $10,098 price is only if the buyer was at BJ. If the buyer was an absentee bidder like I was the check he would be writing would be $10,282 Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86glhs76 Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 The Shelby CSX was the first varible vain or varible nozzle turbo charged production car ever. Some clowns think the 911 a couple years ago was. But the red one here had a VNT, and that was about the most spiecal thing about it. Shelby also took a red prototype to Motor Trend with a spiecal LMAO head and went 148 MPH on the closed track for MT. This is most likely the car they were talking about. They said it had big valves in rumor. I have always been a non believer that anything real was going on with this head. The reason is the well known too small of size VNT shelby used. You stick a ported stock valve head on one and the car will overboost out of control. Big valves maybe in a stock unported head? That would flow terrible, maybe worse than stock and would explain running a big valve on a VNT car. My CSX with a brand new VNT has a 2.5L in it with everything stock. Just going to a 2.5L makes the turbo spike boost so hard there is no control. Years ago on the 16v front Shelbys group raced the 16v 86 GLHS in a car craft event, but it wasn't running right. Then later in a Mopar mag they published Shelbys 16v GLHS with 495 WHP, a welded diff and claim it ran 12.05 on street tires. The HH head and over the valve cover intake. We have also heard rumors in the Dodge group that Shelby had 20 of these units left and was considering selling a package. Thats my favorite rumor of course lol. The rumor a prototype Shelby CSX "needed" a spiecal head to go 150 MPH is a joke. But I live a block from Montana and there is just too much room to open these cars. ANY intercooled 2.2 car can run 150. The Omni version of course leaves the ground and the front tires spin that fast, and I'll never do it again in that car, but it'll do it. The 87 Daytona Shelby adds claimed 148 MPH stock for the Daytona, then Shelby says 135 for a 87 GLHS? You bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted January 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Then later in a Mopar mag they published Shelbys 16v GLHS with 495 WHP, a welded diff and claim it ran 12.05 on street tires. The HH head and over the valve cover intake. I've driven Carrolls HH GLHS many times and while I don't recall that article with those numbers lets just say some creative marketing/editing was going on with the car. It was a very good set-up 20+ years ago. Fortunately we have many other ways of making a superior 2.2 engine today. Both 8v & 16v. But there will always be a place for Carrolls one of one HH 'S' car. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordes Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Thanks Steve, and those that also contributed to this thread. It was a great read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadAssPerformance Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Forgot to post these before... more pics a friend of mine took at the auction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadAssPerformance Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greaser Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 man i cant wait to get mine done and looking half that good lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted April 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2008 Forgot to post these before... more pics a friend of mine took at the auction. JT cool pics. Too bad he didn't get video so we could have heard what the auctioneer was saying about the car. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadAssPerformance Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 JT cool pics. Too bad he didn't get video so we could have heard what the auctioneer was saying about the car. Steve That would have been really cool! I'm glad he was able to get what he got, he only stopped by the auction for a stort time and got lucky it was the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Mosley Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 I didn't realize this thread was going on. I have a bit more insight to this car. This car has some Thrifty history as well. Some that were on the SDML a few years back may remember my post. Its kinda funny I got a few emails from my post back then calling me a bluff. I guess i was a few steps ahead of the crew. Here is a copy of my email to the SDML back in 2002: Flag this messageRed/Gray CSX-T Development Car?Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:51 PM From: "Rick Mosley" <shelbyglhs826@yahoo.com>Add sender to Contacts To: shelby-dodge@imagicomm.comSomething to ponder: I heard today from a very reliable source that the Exec. V.P. of Thrifty(who was also head of Marketing) had serial no #1, an non licensable development car, that was red/gray and the hood was signed with a nail by Carroll Shelby. So I ask: Has anyone heard of this car before? Any pictures? Rick Mosley Umatilla, FL 1987 GLHS 826 1988 CSX-T 700 I can't recall the VP's name I had contacted but It wouldn't be too hard to come up with this guys name again. I had called Thrifty corporate and spoke with someone and asked who was the President and VP back in the mid to late 80's. They gave me their names and I did a Google which came up with the Exe VP's name. he was involved with some internet company and he quickly answered my email. I sure wish I still had those emails. Unfortuantly my original emails to the VP were lost on my old computers hard drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Mosley Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 Digging though my old email I have saved on Yahoo I found this one Brett & I had exchanged: Flag this messageRE: Red/Gray CSX-T Development Car?Saturday, December 21, 2002 6:07 PM From: "Rick Mosley" <shelbyglhs826@yahoo.com>Add sender to Contacts To: xxxxxxx@juno.comBrett: I have quite a bit of info to follow up with on this car. My source, who is the former VP of Thrifty at the time of the CSX-T's, has been very helpful in getting me some "names & numbers" to aid in finding more info on the 2 that went to the President and "his" Red/Gray car. In one of his emails to me he had this to say: "The red/gray car was never driven again after we received it, We where going to race it and never did. It was a fast son of a gun. But not street legal." I'm on vacation right now and plan to follow up with my new leads sometime after the holiday. -Rick Mosley --- xxxxxxxxxxxxxx@juno.com wrote: > Rick, > > While visiting Shelby Automobiles in around 1991 I > saw a red shadow with black 89 CSX grounds > effects(have pictures somewhere) that I was told was > the car they used to certify the TII for emissions. > It was not a CSX-T more of a 89 CSX but it had > Shelby Lancer wheels on it. It just disappeared, > the other cars I saw with the exception of the #1 > showed up at the Shelby Garage sale a few years > later (where I purchased the Birthday Car). But > that is the closet thing I've been aware of to what > your talking about. I own CSX-T #2 and I would be > curious if your source ever has a chance to get > pictures of CSX-T #1 because there is some unique > striping on my car that wasn't production CSX-T and > it was supposedly done by Shelby's company. > > Brett > > > > >Rick writes: > >I heard today from a very reliable source that the > >Exec. V.P. of Thrifty(who was also head of > Marketing) > >had serial no #1, an non licensable development > car, > >that was red/gray and the hood was signed with a > nail > >by Carroll Shelby. > > > > > Shelby Lancer #800 for Sale see web page for details > http://www.geocities.com/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/Bretts.html > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 Rick I'm not sure this is the same car you're thinking of. The seller of this car is a Barrett Jackson employee and he purchased it at the 1994 Newport Beach Auction here in SoCal. This auction car is also prototype X7 which doesn't match your emails. The drivetrain appeared to be 100% stock as used in the production cars. I'm not saying that someone at Thrifty didn't get ahold of a 1989 prototype I just don't think it was this particular car they owned. If you have more details let us know. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Mosley Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 What makes me think its one in the same is the Sig on the hood. My info came from the VP who was running on his memory from 15 years prior. Easy thing to do is for someone get in touch with him again and point him to the pics to see if it refreshes his memory. I recall him saying he was heavy into racing and I think he mentioned he was into Shelby Mustangs or Cobras. I got a feeling were talking about the same car. Rick I'm not sure this is the same car you're thinking of. The seller of this car is a Barrett Jackson employee and he purchased it at the 1994 Newport Beach Auction here in SoCal. This auction car is also prototype X7 which doesn't match your emails. The drivetrain appeared to be 100% stock as used in the production cars. I'm not saying that someone at Thrifty didn't get ahold of a 1989 prototype I just don't think it was this particular car they owned. If you have more details let us know. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 What makes me think its one in the same is the Sig on the hood. My info came from the VP who was running on his memory from 15 years prior. Easy thing to do is for someone get in touch with him again and point him to the pics to see if it refreshes his memory. I recall him saying he was heavy into racing and I think he mentioned he was into Shelby Mustangs or Cobras. I got a feeling were talking about the same car. I have to agree with you on the hood part. How many 89 prototypes have Carroll's autograph scratched into the paint. If it is the same car then this Thrifty person was misled like others that the car had a prototype head because everything I saw was pretty much spot on production pieces although they may be early pieces. But then again if he's comparing a stock 89 CSX to a stock 88 CSX-T I guess he would think that the 89 CSX was super fast. I can't recall the BJ owners name off the top of my head. Maybe back in 1994 he worked for Thrifty. All I know is that the BJ seller said he bought the car at the Newport Beach auction and he had enough paperwork that backed that up. I'm not sure if I listed the cars mileage in this thread but the car has been driven quite a bit. Inside the car were several car show flyers were the owner had taken the car for showing. So it appears that the car did get out and was driven somewhat but to what extent who knows. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdac guy Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 ....... Maybe back in 1994 he worked for Thrifty. All I know is that the BJ seller said he bought the car at the Newport Beach auction and he had enough paperwork that backed that up. .....After reading all this I'm inclined to agree with Steve that the car mentioned on the SDML postings is not the same car as the one currently for sale (the BJ owner car). And the main reason would be what is said above which agrees with the current ad for the car. That it was bought at the Shelby Garage Sale Auction in 1994. From what I've come to understand about that auction, it was all cars that Carroll had left in his possession after the Whittier facility was closed. It would be very unusual for a car that had already been in private hands (the Thrifty exec) to return to Whittier to be sold at auction by Carroll a few years later. As far as the autographed hood, there certainly could be more than one car like that. But all the info from those old posts sure make interesting reading and add to what little we know about some of the prototype or pre-production cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 But all the info from those old posts sure make interesting reading and add to what little we know about some of the prototype or pre-production cars. Barry Do you recall what date(s) for the SDML thread? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdac guy Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Barry Do you recall what date(s) for the SDML thread? Steve December 21, 2002 from post #47 above. I looked at Message Tracker for that date and for the thread mentioned above and there were only two posts. The one quoted by Rick (which started the thread) and a reply from Brett Lindsey. The Message Tracker I have ends early in 2003, so I can't search beyond that date. I have all the digests since then (so in effect I have the entire SDML to date archived) but no way to search them. They are just stored as text files and then compressed into zips. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StokedShelbyOwner Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Take a close look of the hood signature pic, it may be my imagination or the lighting or wahtever, but the paint color looks different on the fender than the hood. Is it possible the hood was sold for the sig value somewhere along the way and was transferred to this car? Or it's possible Mr Shelby did the 'deep signature' thing more than once... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted August 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 Take a close look of the hood signature pic, it may be my imagination or the lighting or wahtever, but the paint color looks different on the fender than the hood. Is it possible the hood was sold for the sig value somewhere along the way and was transferred to this car? Or it's possible Mr Shelby did the 'deep signature' thing more than once... Alan Alan, I'm thinking the signature thing was done more than once. I'm pretty sure the hood was not changed. Carroll's signature went thru the red repaint coat but stopped at the factory white paint underneath. Remember this car was orginally a bright white painted car from Chrysler. Also if you look at the auction description window sticker from 1994 it says that the buyer will receive photos of Carroll signing the hood. Does that mean Carroll signed the hood before the auction and one of the auction workers took pics or does that mean that the buyer of the car had Carroll sign the hood after he bought it and he took some pics. I guess some questions will go unknown until the new owner of this car surfaces and fills us in on what he received from the previous owner. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Mosley Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 The simple thing to do is get in touch with the Thrifty exe I had contacted, forward him the pics and see what he says. or We can sit here and speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 The simple thing to do is get in touch with the Thrifty exe I had contacted, forward him the pics and see what he says. or We can sit here and speculate. Ahh speculating can be so fun especailly when its so easy to go down the wrong road. Rick you would probably be the best person to follow up with the Thrifty exec. Let us know if you have any luck as its only going to get harder and harder to document these prototypes. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Well time to do some possible flip flopping here. Look what I found in the October 1994 SDAC newsletter about the 1989 CSX X7 car. Notice where they say the auction winner lives. Yup same city and state as corporate headquarters for Thrifty Rental. This newsletter article was talking about the CS Newport Beach Auction and gave a brief description of some of the Dodge prototypes that were sold. If I ever come across some auction paperwork we can solve the mystery for sure but now I'm thinking there is only one 1989 CSX with Carrolls autograph scratched into the hood. Now this isn't proof of anything and the info can be wrong just like where they call it a T-III motor but I think Rick may have added another piece to the puzzle. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdac guy Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Well time to do some possible flip flopping here. Look what I found in the October 1994 SDAC newsletter about the 1989 CSX X7 car. Notice where they say the auction winner lives. Yup same city and state as corporate headquarters for Thrifty Rental. This newsletter article was talking about the CS Newport Beach Auction and gave a brief description of some of the Dodge prototypes that were sold. If I ever come across some auction paperwork we can solve the mystery for sure but now I'm thinking there is only one 1989 CSX with Carrolls autograph scratched into the hood. Now this isn't proof of anything and the info can be wrong just like where they call it a T-III motor but I think Rick may have added another piece to the puzzle. Steve Looks to me like the T3 reference was just a typo, as it says T3-VNT instead of the proper T4-VNT designation. But overall, point well taken and I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Mosley Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anderson Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Did anyone in the Turbo Dodge circle buy X7,from the BJ auction? Would be cool to have the new owners reside in the Seattle Wa area,then I would get to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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