Final GT500 production numbers Covert/Coupe

[68fastback]

Ford has said the Boss was going to be 09 model. I read here from posts saying it was being pushed back to 2010 now. I think because of issues over a motor.

 

Where did any official word from Ford come from saying the Boss mustang will not come out in 09? I have not seen anything from Ford on this. The only thing I ever heard was 09 which came from Ford. I have not seen anything about it since.

 

Is there any source from Ford stating they will not have the Boss in 09?

 

I don't recall Ford ever actually saying anything on a Boss date, but an 'MY10 available summer '09 are the rumors I've heard lately.

 

I remember the talk of the iron 5.4 iron-block Boss as an '09 (count me out), but never thought that was actually communicated by Ford.

 

Dan

[ShelbyDude]

Ford never said anthing about the GT500 being rare (car mag spin?).

 

What I recall from Ford Media was 7,000 '07 GT500s, which was later upped to 9,000 last summer ...I never heard any '08 nums stated back then. In June '06 at least three separate car journalists reported (after the GT500 touchy-feely Ford did in April '06), that the GT500 would be made for three years. At the time Ford had only talked about '07 and '08, but never stated in anything I read that it would be made for only those two years.

 

Dan

 

 

At the Chicago auto show before the car came out Ford sat right there announcing to the general public that they would build between 8K - 10K each year for two years only. Specifically stated a two year run only!

 

Ford has repeated this several times to all their dealers via Ford television that they give live broadcasts to their dealers.

 

The enrollment form every dealer has to sign stated two years only.

 

What the media and magazines say I don't put much weight into. They are all to well known for misquoting things.

 

The 9K - 10K was upped back in April of 2006 via Ford television to all the dealers. I remember it well. I watched it. I was at the Chicago auto show when they said two years only. Approx. 8K - 10K each year. They had a white coupe with blue stripes on display. Sitting up on a turn table.

[ShelbyDude]

I don't recall Ford ever actually saying anything on a Boss date, but an 'MY10 available summer '09 are the rumors I've heard lately.

 

I remember the talk of the iron 5.4 iron-block Boss as an '09 (count me out), but never thought that was actually communicated by Ford.

 

Dan

 

 

I was told by Ford that the Boss was going to be MY09. Come out in 08 as a MY09. That this will be next right after the GT500.

 

The only thing I heard from Ford about a Boss motor was a new motor for the F-150 that was suppose to be coming.

[68fastback]

At the Chicago auto show before the car came out Ford sat right there announcing to the general public that they would build between 8K - 10K each year for two years only. Specifically stated a two year run only!

 

Ford has repeated this several times to all their dealers via Ford television that they give live broadcasts to their dealers.

 

The enrollment form every dealer has to sign stated two years only.

 

What the media and magazines say I don't put much weight into. They are all to well known for misquoting things.

 

The 9K - 10K was upped back in April of 2006 via Ford television to all the dealers. I remember it well. I watched it. I was at the Chicago auto show when they said two years only. Approx. 8K - 10K each year. They had a white coupe with blue stripes on display. Sitting up on a turn table.

Interesting... I can't bridge the two-year/three-year thing. Sure wish I know what they had in mind when telling dealers 2 years only and mags 3-years. Can you seen any context in which the agreement for was for two years only (but somehow did not exclude a 3rd year?) I'm sure the reporters didn't make it up and I'm sure what your say about the agreement are both true, so I'm trying to find a valid interpretation that embraces both.

 

I was told by Ford that the Boss was going to be MY09. Come out in 08 as a MY09. That this will be next right after the GT500.

 

The only thing I heard from Ford about a Boss motor was a new motor for the F-150 that was suppose to be coming.

It would be great if it was MY'09 and based on the new F-150 motor (in alloy :hyper: <lol>) ...do you recall the approx vintage of that? Also, have you heard anything further on Ford's Engine-branding media release (from last fall/winter??) ...that was back about 30 days after Ford registered the Boss trademark (after working out the details with the Shinoda family/estate).

 

If that's the track the Boss is still on, SEMA this fall has got to show something, real or stealth. I was expecting that last SEMA, but the whole Ford tent was 'unusual' -- strangely smaller, no crate motors, big Volvo section (in the Ford area!!!), unusual one-offs that were lackluster (imo) -- the only real "meat" was the Shelby GT500 (old) and 40th (new) and the 75th '32 Deuce-related stuff. Most disappointing Ford SEMA I'd seen.

 

Also, Ford has 2 SVT vehicles in active development (can and truck) -- both those have to be at SEMA in some form (unless Ford is repurposing/reducing its participation in SEMA -- and they are now the only auto manufacturer with a SEMA board rep!).

 

I guess this is what keeps it exciting ;-)

[VNMOUS1]

Interesting... I can't bridge the two-year/three-year thing. Sure wish I know what they had in mind when telling dealers 2 years only and mags 3-years. Can you seen any context in which the agreement for was for two years only (but somehow did not exclude a 3rd year?) I'm sure the reporters didn't make it up and I'm sure what your say about the agreement are both true, so I'm trying to find a valid interpretation that embraces both.

It would be great if it was MY'09 and based on the new F-150 motor (in alloy :hyper: <lol>) ...do you recall the approx vintage of that? Also, have you heard anything further on Ford's Engine-branding media release (from last fall/winter??) ...that was back about 30 days after Ford registered the Boss trademark (after working out the details with the Shinoda family/estate).

 

If that's the track the Boss is still on, SEMA this fall has got to show something, real or stealth. I was expecting that last SEMA, but the whole Ford tent was 'unusual' -- strangely smaller, no crate motors, big Volvo section (in the Ford area!!!), unusual one-offs that were lackluster (imo) -- the only real "meat" was the Shelby GT500 (old) and 40th (new) and the 75th '32 Deuce-related stuff. Most disappointing Ford SEMA I'd seen.

 

Also, Ford has 2 SVT vehicles in active development (can and truck) -- both those have to be at SEMA in some form (unless Ford is repurposing/reducing its participation in SEMA -- and they are now the only auto manufacturer with a SEMA board rep!).

 

I guess this is what keeps it exciting ;-)

 

When I was in Romeo a few weeks ago they told us that the "Hurricane" engine (BOSS) was going to come to market in a truck first. And, there were no plans on paper to bring it to a car, but he was sure they would. They also said they renamed it after Katrina.

 

 

bj

[mustang crazy]

When I was in Romeo a few weeks ago they told us that the "Hurricane" engine (BOSS) was going to come to market in a truck first. And, there were no plans on paper to bring it to a car, but he was sure they would. They also said they renamed it after Katrina.

bj

hi there guys I head no 09 gt 500 .SAI may do a gt 350 in 09 make a new shelby for that year!!!!!!

[mobeydick]

Do some math. the Romeo Plant builds about 40 SC 5.4s a day, 250 working days.

[kstrong]

It is time I repeated what I said months ago.

 

At Airventure 2006 at Oshkosh Carroll Shelby and Ford Representatives announced before approximately 20,000 or so people the numbers.

 

Carroll said "Together we will make 50,000 Shelby Mustangs."

 

Add up the numbers.

 

GTH

GTS

GT500

GT500KR

GT500SS

GT500XXXXXX

 

Anyone have all the numbers?

[kstrong]

It is time I repeated what I said months ago.

 

At Airventure 2006 at Oshkosh Carroll Shelby and Ford Representatives announced before approximately 20,000 or so people the numbers.

 

Carroll said "Together we will make 50,000 Shelby Mustangs."

 

Add up the numbers.

 

GTH

GTS

GT500

GT500KR

GT500SS

GT500XXXXXX

 

Anyone have all the numbers?

Does anyone have the numbers?

[mach1fever]

This is the info I have been told thus far.

 

Couple of months ago from a reliable source: the contract was recently inked for a 2009 my shelby gt500.

 

Boss will be in the 2010 body style as a 2010 my.

 

The f150 is still on track to get the twin force motor, with a 6.2 block base for the larger versions. There is an svt f150 in the works utilizing some form of the 6.2L. The hurricane program is still going on. The f150 vairant will have boss in the name whether its the name of the motor etc. This info is from a ford truck engineer I worked with less than 3 days ago.

 

Roger

[68fastback]

Does anyone have the numbers?

 

Just from memory:

GT-H 6K

S-GT 10K

GT-SC small nums?

GT500 10K + 10K (for round nums)

GT500KR 1K

GT500SS 1K

<edit:> see ShelbyDude's production nums in post#80 below

 

 

Looks to leave room for about 12K more in '09 ...or sometime after '08. Then again, that could have just been the 'official' words for the ears of the great unwashed ...back then.

 

It is also possible that the Boss could be a Shelby Boss... shipped as a stripper to SA. When I mentioned a long time ago that SA doing a serious build including engines wasn't a good fit for their capabilities, I believe Amy said I should not asume that -- they have the engineering skills and dynos, etc. (can't remember her exact words or if it was here or elsewhere, but that was the spirit of it).

 

At the time I doubt that was realistic but after the GT-H SGT SS and KR, if Ford were to do a killer Romeo NA motor in the S197, SA probably could do an effective build completion on the car. The union likely would not balk as long as the base car came thru busines-as-usual. Just a thought... a Boss Shelby 5.0 does have an awesome ring to it and it could slot in to keep the SA wheels greased post KR.

 

Of course that means Ford engineering has some work to do on a cost-performing DOHC intake and alloy block updating for cooling and to accomodate the DOHC Ford GT heads on the alloy block, etc. If a H/Boss derivative (makes more sense to Ford, I would guess, if performance factory cars will live a while longer) there's still major development to be done, most of which would have to be written off against the 'stang (alloy block, better (3V) heads, etc), imo. Of course I'm assuming it's a real Boss (car) in both cases (mod, H/Boss) -- iron blocks need not apply unless they're lightweight CGI variations which might be almost as light and super strong.

 

I believe Cosworth has been doing lightweight compacted graphite impregnated blocks for the Focus racers for some time and I see World is now offering CGI Hemi remakes -- so the tech is rapidly going mainline in the aftermarket. Who knows? Maybe a CGI Boss is strong enough for a truck and light enough to git 'er done for us alloy freaks (certainly that World Hemi block does not look like weight savings was a design goal ).

 

---

 

Coldy thanks for the plant feedback... hopefully they heard that more recently than when it was the hot rumor (late fall/winter '06?). It's a real dilemma for Ford, imo... if muscle cars in any form are goint to live for a while yet, they must be realtively clean, profitable and competitive! Investing a bunch in the modular (even if it did not have it's small bore spacing legacy) could be throw-away money; if the peak factory performance years are NOW, then stretching the life of the mod may make sense. Either way, they need the H/Boss barrel loaded (as the plant guy said, not the paper plan but he thinks it will happen) or Ford risks getting 'embarrassed' once again -- something Ford has sworn will not happen this time around ...but words are cheap. Somewhere, somehow Ford will need a killer NA motor to go against the NA hi-po version of the Camaro, which is likely to be 400-450HP depending how much of the respun LS3 C6 pieces make the cut. And I fully expect the 505HP current Z06 motor to make it to the Camaro by the end of the first model year.

 

The modular has proven to be an extraordinary motor, especially in S/C trim, but won't be long before GM will be greasing the aftermarket and/or will offer similar S/C kits themselves for the LSx Camaro (and new vette!). The aftermarket already does! The old saying "there's no substitute for cubic inches" applies here, but to win the clean, profitable, competitive trophy is substantially more involved and is likely an engineering competition only the factories can effectively take on for those who want the factory brand.

 

<I think I'l go weed the walkway now -- it feels like a 105 out! -- that always resets my Boss anxieties - lol>

[carnut]

Imagine a 429 Boss in a 2009 Lightweight Mustang.

 

I could wet myself. :happy feet:

[68fastback]

This is the info I have been told thus far.

 

Couple of months ago from a reliable source: the contract was recently inked for a 2009 my shelby gt500.

 

Boss will be in the 2010 body style as a 2010 my.

 

The f150 is still on track to get the twin force motor, with a 6.2 block base for the larger versions. There is an svt f150 in the works utilizing some form of the 6.2L. The hurricane program is still going on. The f150 vairant will have boss in the name whether its the name of the motor etc. This info is from a ford truck engineer I worked with less than 3 days ago.

 

Roger

 

Mach1fever, are you saying the SVT F150 H/Boss 6.2 and the Sperduty twin-force TT diesel will share the same block somehow? I'd heard rumors of that on another board some time ago but dismissed it as impractical, so I'm very interested in that.

 

I like that the SVT F150 could take some the development cost off a hi-po mustang motor. Surely the truck would be the iron block ...still, any development that's reuseable is goodness. Hopefuly it's more than just an S/C'd version of the 2V H/Boss 6.2 (whether block-sharing or not).

 

Anyone with any insight on this?

 

 

 

Dan

[SLB8SNK]

It will sure be nice when this gets settled. From one reliable source to another, this is still all over the place. I still hold hope on no 2009, and in my mind think it will be so. I think there is MORE evidence that statges no 2009 as well. Everything that states there is going to be a 2009 is by a single source or friend of a friend. Just my hopeful .02

[68fastback]

Imagine a 429 Boss in a 2009 Lightweight Mustang.

 

I could wet myself. :happy feet:

 

Exactly! the rumored bore-spacing and deck height of the H/Boss would permit 429cid as a modestly oversquare design even if we asume the square-point is 7.0L, a 5.8 or 6.2L version for TransAm would make for one rev-happy NA motor -- especially with siamesed liners, etc! This is why I would so love to hear form anyone who knows how the TransAm class CID boundaries may be shaping up. If it's 5.8 or larger, I think Ford must do a serious (3V, alloy) H/Boss. If it's 5.0, GM needs a modern engine. If it's 6.2, GM has an easy ride -- which is why I feel the 6.2 H/Boss is a best-kept secret and a done deal since the TransAm is not going to tread on GrandAm turf (5.0) and even 5.7/5.8 is too much of a stretch for the mod, even with spray bore. So, if the TransAm is a 'go' the H/Boss needs to be a 'go.' At least that's my logic and I'm sticking to it.

[ShelbyDude]

Just from memory:

GT-H 6K

S-GT 10K

GT-SC small nums?

GT500 10K + 10K (for round nums)

GT500KR 1K

GT500SS 1K

Looks to leave room for about 12K more in '09 ...or sometime after '08. Then again, that could have just been the 'official' words for the ears of the great unwashed ...back then.

 

It is also possible that the Boss could be a Shelby Boss... shipped as a stripper to SA. When I mentioned a long time ago that SA doing a serious build including engines wasn't a good fit for their capabilities, I believe Amy said I should not asume that -- they have the engineering skills and dynos, etc. (can't remember her exact words or if it was here or elsewhere, but that was the spirit of it).

 

At the time I doubt that was realistic but after the GT-H SGT SS and KR, if Ford were to do a killer Romeo NA motor in the S197, SA probably could do an effective build completion on the car. The union likely would not balk as long as the base car came thru busines-as-usual. Just a thought... a Boss Shelby 5.0 does have an awesome ring to it and it could slot in to keep the SA wheels greased post KR.

 

Of course that means Ford engineering has some work to do on a cost-performing DOHC intake and alloy block updating for cooling and to accomodate the DOHC Ford GT heads on the alloy block, etc. If a H/Boss derivative (makes more sense to Ford, I would guess, if performance factory cars will live a while longer) there's still major development to be done, most of which would have to be written off against the 'stang (alloy block, better (3V) heads, etc), imo. Of course I'm assuming it's a real Boss (car) in both cases (mod, H/Boss) -- iron blocks need not apply unless they're lightweight CGI variations which might be almost as light and super strong.

 

I believe Cosworth has been doing lightweight compacted graphite impregnated blocks for the Focus racers for some time and I see World is now offering CGI Hemi remakes -- so the tech is rapidly going mainline in the aftermarket. Who knows? Maybe a CGI Boss is strong enough for a truck and light enough to git 'er done for us alloy freaks (certainly that World Hemi block does not look like weight savings was a design goal ).

 

---

 

Coldy thanks for the plant feedback... hopefully they heard that more recently than when it was the hot rumor (late fall/winter '06?). It's a real dilemma for Ford, imo... if muscle cars in any form are goint to live for a while yet, they must be realtively clean, profitable and competitive! Investing a bunch in the modular (even if it did not have it's small bore spacing legacy) could be throw-away money; if the peak factory performance years are NOW, then stretching the life of the mod may make sense. Either way, they need the H/Boss barrel loaded (as the plant guy said, not the paper plan but he thinks it will happen) or Ford risks getting 'embarrassed' once again -- something Ford has sworn will not happen this time around ...but words are cheap. Somewhere, somehow Ford will need a killer NA motor to go against the NA hi-po version of the Camaro, which is likely to be 400-450HP depending how much of the respun LS3 C6 pieces make the cut. And I fully expect the 505HP current Z06 motor to make it to the Camaro by the end of the first model year.

 

The modular has proven to be an extraordinary motor, especially in S/C trim, but won't be long before GM will be greasing the aftermarket and/or will offer similar S/C kits themselves for the LSx Camaro (and new vette!). The aftermarket already does! The old saying "there's no substitute for cubic inches" applies here, but to win the clean, profitable, competitive trophy is substantially more involved and is likely an engineering competition only the factories can effectively take on for those who want the factory brand.

 

<I think I'l go weed the walkway now -- it feels like a 105 out! -- that always resets my Boss anxieties - lol>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GT-H 500 2006 + 500 2008 = 1,000

S-GT 6K 2007 + 2,200 2008 = 8,200

GT-SC small nums?

GT500 10,864 2007 + 8,000 2008 = 18,864

GT500KR 1,000 2008

GT500SS 500 - 1,000 2007 & 2008

 

Of course, any Super Snakes and 40th editions will take away from regular 2007 & 2008 production numbers since those will part of those cars converted.

 

So there is approx 29,000 Shelbys over two years!

 

Perhaps another 18K or so GT350's yet to come???? Plus some special editions off those models done up at SAI??? This would put it close to the 50K mark for total Shelby Mustangs!

[mach1fever]

Hey guys we already have a 5.0 aka boss 329 Its the Saleen Parnelli Jones engine. Reliability is there and we know Saleen and Roushe do R&D. You can reuse most of the 4.6 3-v, its high reving, 400 hp, and reliable.

 

I remember talking to the same source about the 2009 gt500 and I think he said it would be a boss 329.

 

The twin force I was referring to is the TT v-6 for the f150. The Svt f150 is supposed to be based off of the 6.2L architecture. Think about it. The tranny is there and the cubes are there to move it which the 5.4L didn't provide. Now the 6.2 will not make it into a mustang, but a 5.8 Liter might.

[SLB8SNK]

And there you have it!!

[kstrong]

And there you have it!!

So you folks see my point? Ford and Shelby are on track. Ford and Shelby were upfront about the number of vehicles, they just did not have exact numbers on each model. They could still produce another 18,00 or so vehicles and not be misleading anyone.

 

When you think that only about 500 of those vehicles have been sold to Canada ( 32 plus million people) then there is a huge market for the vehicles here. Also only about 30,000 vehicles to the U.S.? With 300 plus million people in the U.S. I hardly think these cars are being overproduced. :happy feet:

[ShelbyDude]

So you folks see my point? Ford and Shelby are on track. Ford and Shelby were upfront about the number of vehicles, they just did not have exact numbers on each model. They could still produce another 18,00 or so vehicles and not be misleading anyone.

 

When you think that only about 500 of those vehicles have been sold to Canada ( 32 plus million people) then there is a huge market for the vehicles here. Also only about 30,000 vehicles to the U.S.? With 300 plus million people in the U.S. I hardly think these cars are being overproduced. :happy feet:

 

 

Correct! As long as they keep within the numbers of each Shelby MODEL they said they will only build then they are not misleading anyone or anything.

 

Build 30K - 50K GT500's or more than 6K SGT's for 07 or more than 1000 GT500KR's for 08, then they would have mislead everyone.

 

They said 500 G-TH, then another 500 GT-H Convertibles for another year, then only 6K Shelby GT's for 07, and that is all they built! They said 8K - 10K GT500's each year for two years, so staying within 20K over two years they will have stuck with what they said.

 

They never said any particular Shelby they build would be the ONLY Shelby MODEL they will build. They only said how many of each particular model they would build!

 

So they could build 500K Shelbys if they wanted too, just by building a different model! They could come out and say we are building 100K Shelby GT350's if they wanted. That has nothing to do with a Shelby GT, GT500, GT500KR.

[68fastback]

Not to beat this to death, but I don't think any of those numbers were/are commitments. The S-GT's were being considered for 10K and then moved back to 6K (from what I'd heard). Nor is the 1000KRs a hard and fast number, imo. Maybe they'll do 862 or 1,497KRs if, for some reason, that makes sens for Ford.

 

I think all these numbers are production planning numbers -- nothing more. I'd love to see something that says they're commitments, but Ford just doesn't sign production contracts with its dealers that I'm aware of.

 

Ford's judgement and the marketplace determine actual production -- advance nums are planning estimates necessarily based on the windage du jour.

 

Imo, Ford could make arrangements with Saleen to re-start production of the Ford GT in '09 if they feel that makes sense for some reason (and it were good for Saleen, etc).

 

Even Carrol Shelby's "50K" number is just good PR-speak based on how big the "bread-box" might be -- I doubt that anyone, including Ford, had a hard and fast number for total Shelby's to be built (especially back then)... just my business opinion, nothing more.

[mach1fever]

Remember they did it with the mach 1's and more recently the california special has made a re-appearance.

 

Roger

[ingram4868]

You can bet that Ford is paying Mr. Shelby a big hunk of change for every Shelby name plate that goes on a Mustang. The history of Ford and Shelby also includes the not so nice legal battles from the first ventures. You can bet Mr. Shelby has great lawyers and multiple contracts stating limited terms and conditions that will prohibit Ford from making unilateral decision about the number of Mustangs that can be produced with the Shelby name.

[ShelbyDude]

Not to beat this to death, but I don't think any of those numbers were/are commitments. The S-GT's were being considered for 10K and then moved back to 6K (from what I'd heard). Nor is the 1000KRs a hard and fast number, imo. Maybe they'll do 862 or 1,497KRs if, for some reason, that makes sens for Ford.

 

I think all these numbers are production planning numbers -- nothing more. I'd love to see something that says they're commitments, but Ford just doesn't sign production contracts with its dealers that I'm aware of.

 

Ford's judgement and the marketplace determine actual production -- advance nums are planning estimates necessarily based on the windage du jour.

 

Imo, Ford could make arrangements with Saleen to re-start production of the Ford GT in '09 if they feel that makes sense for some reason (and it were good for Saleen, etc).

 

Even Carrol Shelby's "50K" number is just good PR-speak based on how big the "bread-box" might be -- I doubt that anyone, including Ford, had a hard and fast number for total Shelby's to be built (especially back then)... just my business opinion, nothing more.

 

 

The Shelby GT was announced as a LIMITED EDITION.

 

Here is specific wording pertaining to this from Ford:

 

December 4th, 2006

 

The following information outlines the 2007 Shelby GT Mustang program, which begins production as a limited edition this month. It includes details of the: product, allocation and production timing, ordering and billing process, delivery, and warranty policy.

 

2007 Shelby GT Mustang

 

Question: What is a Shelby GT Mustang?

Answer- Product Description

The 2007 Shelby GT is collaboration between the Ford Mustang program team, Ford Racing, and Shelby Automobiles Inc. (SAI). The vehicle will be produced at the Mustang factory (Auto Alliance Inc - AAI) as a Mustang GT and be modified into a Shelby GT at Shelby Automobiles in Las Vegas, using Ford Racing and Shelby components. This vehicle will be:

 

A special edition produced at limited volume

Available in both manual and automatic transmission

Limited to two exterior colors: Performance White and Black (Both colors include silver stripes)

 

Timing/Volume/Price

• Timing: 2007 MY Job #2 – 12/4/2006

• Volume: limited - to be announced

• Pricing: to be announced

 

 

2007 Ford Shelby GT

Type: Rear-wheel drive sports coupe

Retail price: $36,970-$42.350

Models: One, but two colors, black or white

Engine: 4.6-liter V-8 producing 319-horsepower, 330-pound-feet torque

Transmission: 5-speed manual with Hurst shifter or 5-speed automatic

EPA mileage: 16 mpg city / 23 mpg highway

 

What makes it Shelby GT?

All Mustangs are built in Flat Rock, but only 6,000 became 2007 Shelby GTs. It starts as a regular GT before heading to Las Vegas where Carroll Shelby’s team changes the car. The revised sports coupes include:

A new front and rear fascia

An air scoop on the hood and side scoops on each side in front of the rear wheel well

A Hurst short-throw shifter

A high-flow exhaust system boosts power to 319 horses.

Specially tuned dampers and Ford’s race handling package

Special branding: The name Shelby across the trunk and a nameplate on the dash with the car’s VIN and Carroll Shelby’s signature.

Source: Ford Motor Co.

[68fastback]

You can bet that Ford is paying Mr. Shelby a big hunk of change for every Shelby name plate that goes on a Mustang. The history of Ford and Shelby also includes the not so nice legal battles from the first ventures. You can bet Mr. Shelby has great lawyers and multiple contracts stating limited terms and conditions that will prohibit Ford from making unilateral decision about the number of Mustangs that can be produced with the Shelby name.

 

As I understand it, Shelby Autos was some $10M in debt and virtually DOA. The blue-oval angel started courting CS some 6-7 years ago -- when the Ford GT was just a gleam in Ford's eye. I don't think there's any lasting animosity whatsoever... in fact I think it's a genuine love-fest. Ford gave SA a financial way back from the brink in a mutually beneficial arrangement and Carroll has said he will take his relationship with Ford to the grave.

 

Amy has managed the company through what was essentially start-up cycle into the growing pains of aviable and vibrant aftermarket business because of that 'bluebird' opportunity Ford instigated. I suspect both Ford and SA is quite happy with the relationship.

 

I think I calculated the per-car GT500 'royalty' to Shelby at $250/unit, if I recall. I had expected it to be a bit more, but for 20K units would still be $5M -- for some name licensing and some 'consulting' services -- not too bad a deal, eh?

 

Btw, Ford likely has several-fold more lawyers in-house and actively on-call than all SA employees combined, but I don't think they're spending much time on the Ford-SA relationship.

[ShelbyDude]

Not to beat this to death, but I don't think any of those numbers were/are commitments. The S-GT's were being considered for 10K and then moved back to 6K (from what I'd heard). Nor is the 1000KRs a hard and fast number, imo. Maybe they'll do 862 or 1,497KRs if, for some reason, that makes sens for Ford.

 

I think all these numbers are production planning numbers -- nothing more. I'd love to see something that says they're commitments, but Ford just doesn't sign production contracts with its dealers that I'm aware of.

 

Ford's judgement and the marketplace determine actual production -- advance nums are planning estimates necessarily based on the windage du jour.

 

Imo, Ford could make arrangements with Saleen to re-start production of the Ford GT in '09 if they feel that makes sense for some reason (and it were good for Saleen, etc).

 

Even Carrol Shelby's "50K" number is just good PR-speak based on how big the "bread-box" might be -- I doubt that anyone, including Ford, had a hard and fast number for total Shelby's to be built (especially back then)... just my business opinion, nothing more.

 

 

Here is the problem as I would see it.

 

Ford comes out and makes a public announcement clearly telling the world and their dealers that the Shelby GT500 will be a 2 year production.

 

In the beginning approx a year before going into production they started with saying only 7,000 for 2007. Later they up that number, but still before it goes into production. At the 2006 Chicago Auto Show in Feb of 2006, still months before they start production.....Ford announces publically that this will be a two year production model and only 8K - 9K per year will be built.

 

Later around April of 2006 still before it goes into production Ford tells all their dealers it will more like 9K units per year for two years only. Specially 2007 and 2008. Could be closer to 19K units total over two years.

 

The key thing here is TWO YEARS being stated and limited to approx 19K units total over the two years!

 

Ford is a publically owned company. Their dealers rely on any information they are provided from Ford which they in turn tell the consumers that same information.

 

Consumers now have been lead to believe that this car is going to be a limited production of approx 18K - 20K units total over a two year period and they are lead to believe this will be built for two years only.

 

As a result of all this information being furnished by Ford and by their dealers which information they got came from Ford.....this creates a huge demand for this product. Mostly all because they have been lead to believe the number of GT500's will be limited to 18K - 20K units over two years only and will only be built for those two years. Because of this and because of the demand it created from that, this was a direct cause of causing the market to explode to where it created such a demand that buyers were paying $5K - $30K + over MSRP for this car.

 

Now had Ford never said this would be a two year production only and had Ford never told their dealers this, the inflated prices that this car has created would have never gotten to the point of $20K + over MSRP!

 

Now assuming Ford never announces a GT500 for 09 and between now and then, should the market crash where these start selling for MSRP and the ADM's go away at some point on the 08 models, then naturally it would not matter how many they build after 08 or how many more years they decided to build it after that. It wouldn't matter because the market crashed anyway before they ever announced anything pertaining to building it another year.

 

But assuming the market holds strong throughout 2008 where ADM's remain strong and Ford then announces they will build this again for 2009, and whereby that then causes the market to crash on these where ADM's suddenly vanish because of that, then that is where I see a problem!

 

They would have basically created a false market by misleading the public and their dealers into believing this was only going to be a limited production of 18K - 20K units over two years only.

 

Where do you think all the dealers got that information from? They all just made it up and they all just happened to make up the same story coming up with the same numbers and same two year time frame??? That all came from Ford!

 

So it isn't the dealers that would bare any liability from this. It is all on Ford because the dealers were merely relaying to the public the information they were given by Ford. The public was reacting and over paying because of that information.

 

Had Ford never said any of this and said they would or even may consider extending another year or years, a lot of those buyers would have never given into paying the higher ADM's they ended up paying because of that!

 

So the bottom line is, Ford gave out specific information as to this being limited to two years only and limited to approx 8K - 10K each year! THAT is what created such an inflated market on these cars. Period!

 

Sure, even if Ford never said any of that, buyers would have still most likely paid some form of ADM on this car, at least in the beginning just like any other new hot car that first comes out. But it would have never hit the high amounts it did in the $20K + over range and it would have never lasted half as long as it did and the ADM's would have pretty much dried up a long time ago. But they haven't and they are still holding strong to this day. All because everyone buying one believes the information they were are given about this only being a two year production and being limited to 18K - 20K units over that two year period!

 

Now, does Ford really care about any of this? Probably not! They obviously didn't care about breaching their agreements they had with their dealers when they said whatever allocation you get for 2007 you will get the same allocation for 2008. This was an agreement for both model years.

 

But for 2008 they decided to cut out all the SVT Dealers from getting their 2008 allocation. They claim it is because they cut production back for 2008 which is being cut back to 8,000 umits. The funny thing is that the 2007 allocation and 2008 allocation were both based on a production of only 8K units each year to begin with. But they ended up building approx 2,864 extra units in 2007. So rather than take those 2,864 extra units away from the big dealers that got 7 - 15 extra cars anyway in 2007, they decided it was better to just take away the 1 and 2 extra units from all their SVT Dealers. And this car is SVT! Plus, there are approx 1,000 less dealers now then there was when this program began back in early 2006. We had over 4,600 dealers then. Now we have 3,645 dealers today! So that is a minimum of 1,000 units that wouldn't need to be distributed to those dealers that out of business.

 

So would I be surprised if Ford ends up building this again for 09? Nope! Nothing surprises me any more when it comes to Ford doing things!

 

The good thing for me though, is I was lucky and didn't have to pay a huge ADM. So either way it won't affect me if they do it or not. But I'm sure there are a lot of people that did pay huge ADM's that would not have paid it had they were not mislead into being told this was for two years only. It would also piss me off just because we as a dealer were told the same thing and that is what we have always told everyone because that is what we were always told from Ford. To this day they are still telling us no for 09! But if they are going to build it for 09 then they should have told us and the public this from the beginning. Even if it was uncertain and only a maybe for 09. They should have told us that!

 

So you tell me. Is there potential damages here if by announcing an 09 it causes the market to basically crash on these as a result of that? At least for those that were mislead into believing this was for two years only which is why they paid the $20K + ADM in the first place? Dunno. It doesn't affect me personally because I didn't pay a huge ADM. It only affects me knowing I was mislead like everyone else and means I was giving out false information to consumers that I was given by Ford since the beginning of this project! That I don't like! They never said, maybe, or might, or even we don't know because it hasn't been decided yet. Nothing at all to lead anyone to believe this could go on for more years than they announced!

 

What ever happens will happen and there won't be anything I can do about it other than understand and know the pain those that paid because of it are feeling and going through. So hopefully Ford stays true to their word and does not extend it for 09!

[carrera]

Here is the problem as I would see it.

 

Ford comes out and makes a public announcement clearly telling the world and their dealers that the Shelby GT500 will be a 2 year production.

 

In the beginning approx a year before going into production they started with saying only 7,000 for 2007. Later they up that number, but still before it goes into production. At the 2006 Chicago Auto Show in Feb of 2006, still months before they start production.....Ford announces publically that this will be a two year production model and only 8K - 9K per year will be built.

 

Later around April of 2006 still before it goes into production Ford tells all their dealers it will more like 9K units per year for two years only. Specially 2007 and 2008. Could be closer to 19K units total over two years.

 

The key thing here is TWO YEARS being stated and limited to approx 19K units total over the two years!

 

Ford is a publically owned company. Their dealers rely on any information they are provided from Ford which they in turn tell the consumers that same information.

 

Consumers now have been lead to believe that this car is going to be a limited production of approx 18K - 20K units total over a two year period and they are lead to believe this will be built for two years only.

 

As a result of all this information being furnished by Ford and by their dealers which information they got came from Ford.....this creates a huge demand for this product. Mostly all because they have been lead to believe the number of GT500's will be limited to 18K - 20K units over two years only and will only be built for those two years. Because of this and because of the demand it created from that, this was a direct cause of causing the market to explode to where it created such a demand that buyers were paying $5K - $30K + over MSRP for this car.

 

Now had Ford never said this would be a two year production only and had Ford never told their dealers this, the inflated prices that this car has created would have never gotten to the point of $20K + over MSRP!

 

Now assuming Ford never announces a GT500 for 09 and between now and then, should the market crash where these start selling for MSRP and the ADM's go away at some point on the 08 models, then naturally it would not matter how many they build after 08 or how many more years they decided to build it after that. It wouldn't matter because the market crashed anyway before they ever announced anything pertaining to building it another year.

 

But assuming the market holds strong throughout 2008 where ADM's remain strong and Ford then announces they will build this again for 2009, and whereby that then causes the market to crash on these where ADM's suddenly vanish because of that, then that is where I see a problem!

 

They would have basically created a false market by misleading the public and their dealers into believing this was only going to be a limited production of 18K - 20K units over two years only.

 

Where do you think all the dealers got that information from? They all just made it up and they all just happened to make up the same story coming up with the same numbers and same two year time frame??? That all came from Ford!

 

So it isn't the dealers that would bare any liability from this. It is all on Ford because the dealers were merely relaying to the public the information they were given by Ford. The public was reacting and over paying because of that information.

 

Had Ford never said any of this and said they would or even may consider extending another year or years, a lot of those buyers would have never given into paying the higher ADM's they ended up paying because of that!

 

So the bottom line is, Ford gave out specific information as to this being limited to two years only and limited to approx 8K - 10K each year! THAT is what created such an inflated market on these cars. Period!

 

Sure, even if Ford never said any of that, buyers would have still most likely paid some form of ADM on this car, at least in the beginning just like any other new hot car that first comes out. But it would have never hit the high amounts it did in the $20K + over range and it would have never lasted half as long as it did and the ADM's would have pretty much dried up a long time ago. But they haven't and they are still holding strong to this day. All because everyone buying one believes the information they were are given about this only being a two year production and being limited to 18K - 20K units over that two year period!

 

Now, does Ford really care about any of this? Probably not! They obviously didn't care about breaching their agreements they had with their dealers when they said whatever allocation you get for 2007 you will get the same allocation for 2008. This was an agreement for both model years.

 

But for 2008 they decided to cut out all the SVT Dealers from getting their 2008 allocation. They claim it is because they cut production back for 2008 which is being cut back to 8,000 umits. The funny thing is that the 2007 allocation and 2008 allocation were both based on a production of only 8K units each year to begin with. But they ended up building approx 2,864 extra units in 2007. So rather than take those 2,864 extra units away from the big dealers that got 7 - 15 extra cars anyway in 2007, they decided it was better to just take away the 1 and 2 extra units from all their SVT Dealers. And this car is SVT! Plus, there are approx 1,000 less dealers now then there was when this program began back in early 2006. We had over 4,600 dealers then. Now we have 3,645 dealers today! So that is a minimum of 1,000 units that wouldn't need to be distributed to those dealers that out of business.

 

So would I be surprised if Ford ends up building this again for 09? Nope! Nothing surprises me any more when it comes to Ford doing things!

 

The good thing for me though, is I was lucky and didn't have to pay a huge ADM. So either way it won't affect me if they do it or not. But I'm sure there are a lot of people that did pay huge ADM's that would not have paid it had they were not mislead into being told this was for two years only. It would also piss me off just because we as a dealer were told the same thing and that is what we have always told everyone because that is what we were always told from Ford. To this day they are still telling us no for 09! But if they are going to build it for 09 then they should have told us and the public this from the beginning. Even if it was uncertain and only a maybe for 09. They should have told us that!

 

So you tell me. Is there potential damages here if by announcing an 09 it causes the market to basically crash on these as a result of that? At least for those that were mislead into believing this was for two years only which is why they paid the $20K + ADM in the first place? Dunno. It doesn't affect me personally because I didn't pay a huge ADM. It only affects me knowing I was mislead like everyone else and means I was giving out false information to consumers that I was given by Ford since the beginning of this project! That I don't like! They never said, maybe, or might, or even we don't know because it hasn't been decided yet. Nothing at all to lead anyone to believe this could go on for more years than they announced!

 

What ever happens will happen and there won't be anything I can do about it other than understand and know the pain those that paid because of it are feeling and going through. So hopefully Ford stays true to their word and does not extend it for 09!

 

 

As usual very logical and well said!

[68fastback]

Here is the problem as I would see it.

 

Ford comes out and makes a public announcement clearly telling the world and their dealers that the Shelby GT500 will be a 2 year production.

 

In the beginning approx a year before going into production they started with saying only 7,000 for 2007. Later they up that number, but still before it goes into production. At the 2006 Chicago Auto Show in Feb of 2006, still months before they start production.....Ford announces publically that this will be a two year production model and only 8K - 9K per year will be built.

 

Later around April of 2006 still before it goes into production Ford tells all their dealers it will more like 9K units per year for two years only. Specially 2007 and 2008. Could be closer to 19K units total over two years.

 

The key thing here is TWO YEARS being stated and limited to approx 19K units total over the two years!

 

Ford is a publically owned company. Their dealers rely on any information they are provided from Ford which they in turn tell the consumers that same information.

 

Consumers now have been lead to believe that this car is going to be a limited production of approx 18K - 20K units total over a two year period and they are lead to believe this will be built for two years only.

 

As a result of all this information being furnished by Ford and by their dealers which information they got came from Ford.....this creates a huge demand for this product. Mostly all because they have been lead to believe the number of GT500's will be limited to 18K - 20K units over two years only and will only be built for those two years. Because of this and because of the demand it created from that, this was a direct cause of causing the market to explode to where it created such a demand that buyers were paying $5K - $30K + over MSRP for this car.

 

Now had Ford never said this would be a two year production only and had Ford never told their dealers this, the inflated prices that this car has created would have never gotten to the point of $20K + over MSRP!

 

Now assuming Ford never announces a GT500 for 09 and between now and then, should the market crash where these start selling for MSRP and the ADM's go away at some point on the 08 models, then naturally it would not matter how many they build after 08 or how many more years they decided to build it after that. It wouldn't matter because the market crashed anyway before they ever announced anything pertaining to building it another year.

 

But assuming the market holds strong throughout 2008 where ADM's remain strong and Ford then announces they will build this again for 2009, and whereby that then causes the market to crash on these where ADM's suddenly vanish because of that, then that is where I see a problem!

 

They would have basically created a false market by misleading the public and their dealers into believing this was only going to be a limited production of 18K - 20K units over two years only.

 

Where do you think all the dealers got that information from? They all just made it up and they all just happened to make up the same story coming up with the same numbers and same two year time frame??? That all came from Ford!

 

So it isn't the dealers that would bare any liability from this. It is all on Ford because the dealers were merely relaying to the public the information they were given by Ford. The public was reacting and over paying because of that information.

 

Had Ford never said any of this and said they would or even may consider extending another year or years, a lot of those buyers would have never given into paying the higher ADM's they ended up paying because of that!

 

So the bottom line is, Ford gave out specific information as to this being limited to two years only and limited to approx 8K - 10K each year! THAT is what created such an inflated market on these cars. Period!

 

Sure, even if Ford never said any of that, buyers would have still most likely paid some form of ADM on this car, at least in the beginning just like any other new hot car that first comes out. But it would have never hit the high amounts it did in the $20K + over range and it would have never lasted half as long as it did and the ADM's would have pretty much dried up a long time ago. But they haven't and they are still holding strong to this day. All because everyone buying one believes the information they were are given about this only being a two year production and being limited to 18K - 20K units over that two year period!

 

Now, does Ford really care about any of this? Probably not! They obviously didn't care about breaching their agreements they had with their dealers when they said whatever allocation you get for 2007 you will get the same allocation for 2008. This was an agreement for both model years.

 

But for 2008 they decided to cut out all the SVT Dealers from getting their 2008 allocation. They claim it is because they cut production back for 2008 which is being cut back to 8,000 umits. The funny thing is that the 2007 allocation and 2008 allocation were both based on a production of only 8K units each year to begin with. But they ended up building approx 2,864 extra units in 2007. So rather than take those 2,864 extra units away from the big dealers that got 7 - 15 extra cars anyway in 2007, they decided it was better to just take away the 1 and 2 extra units from all their SVT Dealers. And this car is SVT! Plus, there are approx 1,000 less dealers now then there was when this program began back in early 2006. We had over 4,600 dealers then. Now we have 3,645 dealers today! So that is a minimum of 1,000 units that wouldn't need to be distributed to those dealers that out of business.

 

So would I be surprised if Ford ends up building this again for 09? Nope! Nothing surprises me any more when it comes to Ford doing things!

 

The good thing for me though, is I was lucky and didn't have to pay a huge ADM. So either way it won't affect me if they do it or not. But I'm sure there are a lot of people that did pay huge ADM's that would not have paid it had they were not mislead into being told this was for two years only. It would also piss me off just because we as a dealer were told the same thing and that is what we have always told everyone because that is what we were always told from Ford. To this day they are still telling us no for 09! But if they are going to build it for 09 then they should have told us and the public this from the beginning. Even if it was uncertain and only a maybe for 09. They should have told us that!

 

So you tell me. Is there potential damages here if by announcing an 09 it causes the market to basically crash on these as a result of that? At least for those that were mislead into believing this was for two years only which is why they paid the $20K + ADM in the first place? Dunno. It doesn't affect me personally because I didn't pay a huge ADM. It only affects me knowing I was mislead like everyone else and means I was giving out false information to consumers that I was given by Ford since the beginning of this project! That I don't like! They never said, maybe, or might, or even we don't know because it hasn't been decided yet. Nothing at all to lead anyone to believe this could go on for more years than they announced!

 

What ever happens will happen and there won't be anything I can do about it other than understand and know the pain those that paid because of it are feeling and going through. So hopefully Ford stays true to their word and does not extend it for 09!

 

I honestly don't see that first-year ADMs would be affected by whether it's a two or three year run. The ADMs were driven by the fact that it's a 500HP pony car and there's a lot of folks with the disposable income to buy what they want when they want it.

 

As far as ford saying two years, what about the written words of at leat three car mag writers who carried that Ford told them in the April '06 briefing that it was a three year run. I don't know either what Ford will do and you would know better than I what Ford has communicated to dealers, but just don't see how it damages anyone to sell more of something good unless it was represented as a collector car or somethig like that. I just don;t see that folks have paid ADMs because there being an '09 run or not. Most folks started seeking dealers i the first half of '06, it owuld seem, before they even knew what options the car would have.

 

And what's wrong with the market 'collapsing to MSRP?' MSRP is a damn good price for a dealer to get -- a price they get on very few vehicles they sell. Would dealers turn away MSRP sales?

 

When IBM developed the S/360 (the world's first modern mainframe computer) the worldwide forecast was publically stated by Thomas J Watson, Jr (chairman of IBM) to be less than 10 units. Every newspaper in the US carried the story. S/360 went on to sell thousands, of units and IBM could barely keep up with demand for years -- S/360 effectively defined an entire industry.

 

Estimates are not commitments -- matters not where they're published or to who they're communuicated. Ford can't say nothing when asked what production will be. So they do their best to state what they believe is likely to be the outcome based on vendor information, perceived market demand and regulatory fit. If any of those things change, they revise the numbers as best as possible. Ford planned to sell 5 times as many Ford 500s as they did -- I don't hear the dealers clamboring for that dog. No, Ford rethought it, put in the new 3.5 and 6-spd, spruced up the styling and it will hopefully now meet it's production goals. But if it exceeds them wildly, who's 'liable' for that? Seems like a meaningless questions to me. Or does this just apply because it's a car dealers can squeeze the public on (those that are)? Dealers should be ecstatic if ford runs the GT500 thru '09 and it's still getting MSRP!

 

How can it be that when some dealers signs a written contract with a customer, some feel that's reneggable if someone has more bucks in their pocket, but when Ford provides planning numbers or production statements or media-release information at a point in time, that's a commitment?

 

I can respect what you're saying... you have insights as a dealer that I don't. As a businessman and a consumer, however, I just don't get Ford having liability based on statements that reflect courtesy estimates at a given point in time based on long-established industry practice -- it just makes no sense to me. Any benefit inferred by buying earlier rather than later are purely the decisions of the delaer/buyer. Cars depreciate and any assumption to the contrary is speculation on the part of the buyer.

 

Even if Ford were to extend the GT500 into '09, do they have any liability in not saying anything until GM's production plans are clearer? The needs of the business trump having to provide any such planning nums, imo, and any provided seem well within established industry practice unless Ford made specific allocation commitments in writing to each dealer at the time with no caveats express or implied. Just doesn't work that way, imo. It would seem foolish for Ford to act otherwise.

 

Will some be ticked-off if Ford were to extend after calling out '07 and '08 numbers? Sure. Will some be ticked off if Ford doesn't given releases to the press of a three year run? Sure. Will some be pissed off at Ford no matter what they do? Sure. Mox nix! Their obligation is to do what, on balance, they believe is best for the business ..including the customers, stockholders, dealers, partners, etc. I would expect they'll reflect that when they do publically update their intentions, whatever they may be ...but those will be subject to change too, imo.

[Bhujangasana]

I honestly don't see that first-year ADMs would be affected by whether it's a two or three year run. The ADMs were driven by the fact that it's a 500HP pony car and there's a lot of folks with the disposable income to buy what they want when they want it.

 

As far as ford saying two years, what about the written words of at leat three car mag writers who carried that Ford told them in the April '06 briefing that it was a three year run. I don't know either what Ford will do and you would know better than I what Ford has communicated to dealers, but just don't see how it damages anyone to sell more of something good unless it was represented as a collector car or somethig like that. I just don;t see that folks have paid ADMs because there being an '09 run or not. Most folks started seeking dealers i the first half of '06, it owuld seem, before they even knew what options the car would have.

 

And what's wrong with the market 'collapsing to MSRP?' MSRP is a damn good price for a dealer to get -- a price they get on very few vehicles they sell. Would dealers turn away MSRP sales?

 

When IBM developed the S/360 (the world's first modern mainframe computer) the worldwide forecast was publically stated by Thomas J Watson, Jr (chairman of IBM) to be less than 10 units. Every newspaper in the US carried the story. S/360 went on to sell thousands, of units and IBM could barely keep up with demand for years -- S/360 effectively defined an entire industry.

 

Estimates are not commitments -- matters not where they're published or to who they're communuicated. Ford can't say nothing when asked what production will be. So they do their best to state what they believe is likely to be the outcome based on vendor information, perceived market demand and regulatory fit. If any of those things change, they revise the numbers as best as possible. Ford planned to sell 5 times as many Ford 500s as they did -- I don't hear the dealers clamboring for that dog. No, Ford rethought it, put in the new 3.5 and 6-spd, spruced up the styling and it will hopefully now meet it's production goals. But if it exceeds them wildly, who's 'liable' for that? Seems like a meaningless questions to me. Or does this just apply because it's a car dealers can squeeze the public on (those that are)? Dealers should be ecstatic if ford runs the GT500 thru '09 and it's still getting MSRP!

 

How can it be that when some dealers signs a written contract with a customer, some feel that's reneggable if someone has more bucks in their pocket, but when Ford provides planning numbers or production statements or media-release information at a point in time, that's a commitment?

 

I can respect what you're saying... you have insights as a dealer that I don't. As a businessman and a consumer, however, I just don't get Ford having liability based on statements that reflect courtesy estimates at a given point in time based on long-established industry practice -- it just makes no sense to me. Any benefit inferred by buying earlier rather than later are purely the decisions of the delaer/buyer. Cars depreciate and any assumption to the contrary is speculation on the part of the buyer.

 

Even if Ford were to extend the GT500 into '09, do they have any liability in not saying anything until GM's production plans are clearer? The needs of the business trump having to provide any such planning nums, imo, and any provided seem well within established industry practice unless Ford made specific allocation commitments in writing to each dealer at the time with no caveats express or implied. Just doesn't work that way, imo. It would seem foolish for Ford to act otherwise.

 

Will some be ticked-off if Ford were to extend after calling out '07 and '08 numbers? Sure. Will some be ticked off if Ford doesn't given releases to the press of a three year run? Sure. Will some be pissed off at Ford no matter what they do? Sure. Mox nix! Their obligation is to do what, on balance, they believe is best for the business ..including the customers, stockholders, dealers, partners, etc. I would expect they'll reflect that when they do publically update their intentions, whatever they may be ...but those will be subject to change too, imo.

BRAVO!

[ShelbyDude]

I honestly don't see that first-year ADMs would be affected by whether it's a two or three year run. The ADMs were driven by the fact that it's a 500HP pony car and there's a lot of folks with the disposable income to buy what they want when they want it.

 

As far as ford saying two years, what about the written words of at leat three car mag writers who carried that Ford told them in the April '06 briefing that it was a three year run. I don't know either what Ford will do and you would know better than I what Ford has communicated to dealers, but just don't see how it damages anyone to sell more of something good unless it was represented as a collector car or somethig like that. I just don;t see that folks have paid ADMs because there being an '09 run or not. Most folks started seeking dealers i the first half of '06, it owuld seem, before they even knew what options the car would have.

 

And what's wrong with the market 'collapsing to MSRP?' MSRP is a damn good price for a dealer to get -- a price they get on very few vehicles they sell. Would dealers turn away MSRP sales?

 

When IBM developed the S/360 (the world's first modern mainframe computer) the worldwide forecast was publically stated by Thomas J Watson, Jr (chairman of IBM) to be less than 10 units. Every newspaper in the US carried the story. S/360 went on to sell thousands, of units and IBM could barely keep up with demand for years -- S/360 effectively defined an entire industry.

 

Estimates are not commitments -- matters not where they're published or to who they're communuicated. Ford can't say nothing when asked what production will be. So they do their best to state what they believe is likely to be the outcome based on vendor information, perceived market demand and regulatory fit. If any of those things change, they revise the numbers as best as possible. Ford planned to sell 5 times as many Ford 500s as they did -- I don't hear the dealers clamboring for that dog. No, Ford rethought it, put in the new 3.5 and 6-spd, spruced up the styling and it will hopefully now meet it's production goals. But if it exceeds them wildly, who's 'liable' for that? Seems like a meaningless questions to me. Or does this just apply because it's a car dealers can squeeze the public on (those that are)? Dealers should be ecstatic if ford runs the GT500 thru '09 and it's still getting MSRP!

 

How can it be that when some dealers signs a written contract with a customer, some feel that's reneggable if someone has more bucks in their pocket, but when Ford provides planning numbers or production statements or media-release information at a point in time, that's a commitment?

 

I can respect what you're saying... you have insights as a dealer that I don't. As a businessman and a consumer, however, I just don't get Ford having liability based on statements that reflect courtesy estimates at a given point in time based on long-established industry practice -- it just makes no sense to me. Any benefit inferred by buying earlier rather than later are purely the decisions of the delaer/buyer. Cars depreciate and any assumption to the contrary is speculation on the part of the buyer.

 

Even if Ford were to extend the GT500 into '09, do they have any liability in not saying anything until GM's production plans are clearer? The needs of the business trump having to provide any such planning nums, imo, and any provided seem well within established industry practice unless Ford made specific allocation commitments in writing to each dealer at the time with no caveats express or implied. Just doesn't work that way, imo. It would seem foolish for Ford to act otherwise.

 

Will some be ticked-off if Ford were to extend after calling out '07 and '08 numbers? Sure. Will some be ticked off if Ford doesn't given releases to the press of a three year run? Sure. Will some be pissed off at Ford no matter what they do? Sure. Mox nix! Their obligation is to do what, on balance, they believe is best for the business ..including the customers, stockholders, dealers, partners, etc. I would expect they'll reflect that when they do publically update their intentions, whatever they may be ...but those will be subject to change too, imo.

 

 

I can't comment on what magazines wrote. Hearsay? Was it taken out of context? Magazines misquote a lot of things. Was it true? I don't know. I only know what I heard from Ford. What comes from a 3rd party means nothing. Were they actual quotes taken?

 

I understand there would have been ADM's on this regardless. What I'm saying is I don't think they would have hit the point they did had it not been for being told a limited production for only two years. I think a lot of people would not have given in to paying that much if it wasn't for being told only two years limited to 8K - 10K each year.

 

I guess you need to ask those that paid it if it would have made a difference to them or not. Would they still have paid $15K, $20K, $25K, $30K + ADM's had they known otherwise or if they knew there would be 3 years instead of only two? Only they can answer that. I only know I would have never paid that knowing this.

 

I don't know either what Ford will do and you would know better than I what Ford has communicated to dealers, but just don't see how it damages anyone to sell more of something good unless it was represented as a collector car or somethig like that.

 

Dan, doesn't a limited number for two years imply this could become a big collector given the past history of the Shelbys? Most people seem to have purchased this to drive it, and most of those say they planned to keep it forever as well because of it being a Shelby. A lot of collectors have purchased this to put away and store it as a collector. Why? Whatever would have given anyone the notion that this could ever possibly be or become a collector car someday? Could Ford telling the world and their dealers this was a limited production of only 8K - 10K per year for just two years have anything to do with it? Oh well, what a bunch of dumbasses! They should have known better than to ever believe anything Ford said! LOL

 

Dan, there is nothing wrong with the market dropping to MSRP if that is what happens. If that is what happens solely because Ford announces a 3rd year then that is wrong for all the people that paid bigger ADM's because of being mislead about being a limited production for two years. Look how long the market has been holding ADM's on this. How many other cars in the past held the market like this for this long and at those mark ups? I'm talking about 20K production over a two year period. Not some limited run of a few thousand. Any other car in the past never went this long with this high of an ADM. I relate that to the fact it is a Shelby along with the 500HP and the fact everyone was lead to believe this was a two year run limited to approx 18K - 20K units total.

 

Again, ask the people that paid the bigger premiums if this would have made any difference to them? Would they have waited and paid $5K instead of $20K - $30K over? Would this have brought that much had the market known this would go more than two years? If those people would have still paid the amounts they did regardless, then no harm, no foul.

 

How can it be that when some dealers signs a written contract with a customer, some feel that's reneggable if someone has more bucks in their pocket, but when Ford provides planning numbers or production statements or media-release information at a point in time, that's a commitment?

 

It's not reneggable no matter what they feel. A contract is a contract is a contract! Can they breach their contract? Sure then can. They can also be sued and be accountable for it also. Unfortunately the buyers either felt they wouldn't win or felt it wasn't worth the headache, time and expense to go through with pursing a lawsuit over it. Doesn't mean it was OK just because they did it and no one did anything about it other than complain and bash the dealer for it.

 

Estimates??? I never heard Ford say we estimate two years only. They did estimate the numbers for each year by saying about 7K, 8K - 10K. Those were the only estimates I ever heard as far as being an estimate. Between such and such a number. One being the low end and one being the high end. I never heard them say they estimate only two years depending on anything. They didn't say we estimate two years at 8K - 10K each year and then see how it goes from there whether we decide to build more for another year or not. By telling the public and the dealers only two years and a limited production with intent of doing another year without saying anything, they created a false market with this. Just my opinion.

 

For those that paid an ADM of $10K or more, would you have still paid that to get the car sooner when you got it, or would you have waited out the first year to get it for less had you known Ford would build this for three years???

 

Aside from all this, if they were planning a 3rd year, then why the need to cut back production numbers for 08? What is the point in that? If a 3rd year is in the plans because they feel they can sell another 10k units or whatever, then why limit the 08 to only 8K now? Why not another $10K - $11K for 08 if that is the case? Where is the logic in that?