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Snow Meth/water Injection Systems


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Greetings All;

 

I am contemplating the addition of a Methanol injection, Water injection or a Methanol/Water injection system for my 2010 GT500 with a Whipple 2.9L SC.

 

I run smaller pulleys than what Whipple recommends so I'm taxing the system as it was produced from Ford Racing Performance Parts. A 3" pully is 'stock' but I run a 2-3/4" and/or a 2-7/8" pulley when racing.

 

Snow seems to be the name most often used when discussing Meth/H2O injection. They make a really sweet looking kit too.

 

I've gone over the Snow site and don't find a system specific to the GT500 with either 5.4L or 5.8L engines. Kits for a Mustang GT with 4.6 or 5.0L engines are found. The throttle body plate would be different so neither one appears to be acceptable for my application.

 

Is there anyone here that is familiar with Snow or any other injection system?

 

I am a *little* familiar with Water Injection systems. "Back in the Day", I turbocharged my '67 Camaro (327ci) using a fairly primitive Shelby Spearco Turbo kit and immediately found it necessary to add Water Injection. Detonation was terrible until I added the water injection kit. For that application I used a Edlebrock Vari-jection kit which was all that was available at the time (approx. 1985?). It had a electronic control box/module that allowed me to tailer the injection to vacuum and rpm. I doubt it is even available anymore.

 

The difference was truly AMAZING. Which is why I'm looking at doing it again.

 

My primary use is for running in the Standing Mile events. With the PCM pulling timing at certain intake temps I figure lowering the temps can only help performance. Not just by lowering the intake charge temp for denser air but to keep the PCM from pulling timing too. That, along with the Knock Sensor (KS) technology being used in the 2010+, lowering combustion chamber temps and eliminating the chance of pre-ignition/detonation to allow the PCM to set timing at the absolute max, will most certainly help.

 

What are you running? How do you like it?

 

ANY information is helpful.

 

 

TIA,

Phill

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Phill, Not sure if you know, but Matt Snow lives not far from you. I'm sure he would be willing to work with you on any info you would like also. Great guy. He will also be in Steamboat this weekend at the Rocky Mountain Mustang Round-up with his monster crazy Nascar powered Fox Body 93 Cobra. Are you making it up to the RMMR this year? Weather will be absolutely fantastic with no rain! 86-88 degrees in Steamboat on Friday! You should come up!

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Phill, Not sure if you know, but Matt Snow lives not far from you. I'm sure he would be willing to work with you on any info you would like also. Great guy. He will also be in Steamboat this weekend at the Rocky Mountain Mustang Round-up with his monster crazy Nascar powered Fox Body 93 Cobra. Are you making it up to the RMMR this year? Weather will be absolutely fantastic with no rain! 86-88 degrees in Steamboat on Friday! You should come up!

 

Aw crap. Is RMMR *this* weekend? As in, the 20th? Crap crap crap crap.

 

I'll try you on Facebook too, just to confirm.

 

Apparently my first attempt at a reply didn't make it through but in it I said that yes, I am aware that Snow is in Woodland Park. At least the Corporate offices are shown as being there. I'm in e-mail contact with the Tech Support at Snow right now but talking directly to the man himself would be nice.

 

The weather this weekend is supposed to be nice but my GT500 is up on jack-stands again, with a drivers side header hanging in the air waiting for a set of Cometic gaskets to arrive. So if I make it, it will be in the Raptor, not the Shelby.

 

Shit. Another day late and dollar short. This seems to be a reoccurring theme year after year for me.

 

 

Phill

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Yep Phill, always Father's Day Weekend for the RMMR. Get up early and just drive up here Saturday early without your car. There are over 500 Mustang here to look at, so might as well come up and just enjoy spectating. You can also talk to Matt up here directly.

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I ran a Meth/Water mix (ran meth/water and just water) using a snow kit on my 07 MazdaSpeed3 back in the day...and I don't think I'd ever do it again...

 

If you ran just water...ok...

 

But when you start running meth, you can run into issues with AFR. These modern cars are tuned to run a certain AFR for peak performance. When you start running meth it will firstly start messing with your fuel trims due to the fact that there is additional fuel that is being inserted into the equation that is not being accounted for (MAF sensor senses an amount of air, fuel injectors inject an amount of fuel to try to reach desired AFR). Secondly, to REALLY use the benefits/power of methanol you need to lean out your AFRs.

 

Both of these items can cause issues considering what if your pump randomly fails or any other issue in the middle of a pull? You're now running on regular pump gas with higher AFRs and semi jacked up fuel trims.

 

The risk to reward is just not high enough in my book. If you're looking for just water...cool...but realistically I'd be surprised if you really notice much of a difference in power. If you're having no issues with detonation I wouldn't start using meth. Using meth is an alternative to guys running such aggressive tunes (boost, AFR, timing) that they need higher octane gas and they don't want to drive around with race gas in it every day.

 

All that aside...you need to figure out a good place to actually inject it. A lot of the Speed3 community ran it through a common place in the intake manifold...but after a while we noticed that due to the airflow at that injection location the middle 2 cylinders were getting almost all the meth/water, and the outside cylinders were barely getting anything. So you can't just start pumping the meth/water into any location and expect it to work correctly.

 

Just my experiences.

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I ran a Meth/Water mix (ran meth/water and just water) using a snow kit on my 07 MazdaSpeed3 back in the day...and I don't think I'd ever do it again...

 

If you ran just water...ok...

 

But when you start running meth, you can run into issues with AFR. These modern cars are tuned to run a certain AFR for peak performance. When you start running meth it will firstly start messing with your fuel trims due to the fact that there is additional fuel that is being inserted into the equation that is not being accounted for (MAF sensor senses an amount of air, fuel injectors inject an amount of fuel to try to reach desired AFR). Secondly, to REALLY use the benefits/power of methanol you need to lean out your AFRs.

 

Both of these items can cause issues considering what if your pump randomly fails or any other issue in the middle of a pull? You're now running on regular pump gas with higher AFRs and semi jacked up fuel trims.

 

The risk to reward is just not high enough in my book. If you're looking for just water...cool...but realistically I'd be surprised if you really notice much of a difference in power. If you're having no issues with detonation I wouldn't start using meth. Using meth is an alternative to guys running such aggressive tunes (boost, AFR, timing) that they need higher octane gas and they don't want to drive around with race gas in it every day.

 

All that aside...you need to figure out a good place to actually inject it. A lot of the Speed3 community ran it through a common place in the intake manifold...but after a while we noticed that due to the airflow at that injection location the middle 2 cylinders were getting almost all the meth/water, and the outside cylinders were barely getting anything. So you can't just start pumping the meth/water into any location and expect it to work correctly.

 

Just my experiences.

 

Thanks. This is just the kind of information I'm looking for.

 

I was looking at their MAP/MAF Stage 2 kit but now looking closer at their Stage 3 kit.

 

I wondered about the Meth messing with the O2 sensor readings too. Meth has a bunch of Oxygen in it and that's what the O2 sensor sees (NOT "rich (gas) or lean") so adding a bunch of Meth is adding a bunch of Oxygen, indicating a lean mixture and sending the PCM a signal to richen it up. But I'm already richer in that I'm adding fuel (Meth)...

 

I'm wondering, you said "back in the day". Were you running a simple On/Off system or variable? The Stage 3 has 2 injectors which has the potential to give you 3 stages but looking at the Snow schematic, they only give you 2 stages (one injector OR two injectors).

 

I was looking at the advertised 50-85 HP number and thinking $800 is cheap to gain that much (after the first additional 200HP from the blower).

 

 

Thanks again,

 

Phill

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All that aside...you need to figure out a good place to actually inject it. A lot of the Speed3 community ran it through a common place in the intake manifold...but after a while we noticed that due to the airflow at that injection location the middle 2 cylinders were getting almost all the meth/water, and the outside cylinders were barely getting anything. So you can't just start pumping the meth/water into any location and expect it to work correctly.

 

I'm thinking of running the injector or injectors in the tube between the MAF and the TB, BEFORE vacuum. Centered at either 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock so as to enter both throttle body bores.

 

I am however thinking of a throttle plate type of injector which would be in the vacuum side of the manifold but BEFORE boost (before the SC).

 

But still researching so it all could change.

 

 

Phill

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Thanks. This is just the kind of information I'm looking for.

 

I was looking at their MAP/MAF Stage 2 kit but now looking closer at their Stage 3 kit.

 

I wondered about the Meth messing with the O2 sensor readings too. Meth has a bunch of Oxygen in it and that's what the O2 sensor sees (NOT "rich (gas) or lean") so adding a bunch of Meth is adding a bunch of Oxygen, indicating a lean mixture and sending the PCM a signal to richen it up. But I'm already richer in that I'm adding fuel (Meth)...

 

I'm wondering, you said "back in the day". Were you running a simple On/Off system or variable? The Stage 3 has 2 injectors which has the potential to give you 3 stages but looking at the Snow schematic, they only give you 2 stages (one injector OR two injectors).

 

I was looking at the advertised 50-85 HP number and thinking $800 is cheap to gain that much (after the first additional 200HP from the blower).

 

 

Thanks again,

 

Phill

 

We never seemed to run into the issue with it messing with the O2 sensor...never actually heard anything like you're talking about (it having more oxygen). Methanol from my understanding is simply extremely high octane gas.

 

If I recall I had the stage 2. It was a single injector but was variable based off of the boost. Turned on around 5 PSI and max at 15 psi (I was running 20psi).

 

I would be very careful in your assumptions in power gains. Adding a kit like this alone WILL NOT give you any gains. Its the same thing as if you take a stock GT500 and run 100 Octane race gas through it. You won't see any difference.

These systems are made for motors with very aggressive tunes (high boost, lean AFR, lots of timing), that NEED high octane gas in order not to knock/pre-det. If you're running all your mods now without any issue on 93 octane, I'd be very hesitant to get this kit...you won't notice a difference.

 

Now if you wanted to run water injection for the "safety" aspect...that's a different story. However I don't know enough about the effects of water injection to really know whether or not the safety added is enough to make $500 justifiable. In addition, I would think the water injection AFTER the compression of the supercharger and intercooler would be more beneficial then before. And keep in mind when I say "safety added" I'm simply referring to lowering the intake temp air...which I think higher octane fuel would have a much high impact if you're looking to make the motor run more safely.

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