Black Boxes At It Again! We should protest!

[aonebadbone]

Pilots know that planes have black boxes in them

and until this thread you may not ever have known. If You have enough money even if You were at fault if You had enough money than You could essentially get off without a scratch.

OJ had just enough.

This box is not there for You're defense Its there for You're conviction

Believe me they will use it against You even if You are right

IF THIS THING IS SO GREAT THEN WHY DID THEY KEEP IT A SECRET FROM US.

I found out from a car mechanic Technion

Don't be so quick to except this even though we cant stop it. That should tell You something

[Alloy Dave]

Dave,

 

You've just uncovered the problem with our current system of justice. I know first hand how it works. I work in it. You may be innocent , but if the other side has a better attorney you may be found negligent and guilty. If it makes it any easier to understand just remember the OJ Simpson trial.

I would throw away any government monitoring device in the river if given the chance. I don't want to get into politics but did Enron play fair, Haliburton, etc. We live in the best country in the world and being a true patriot I give into no one nor am I in a state of denial like a lot of our countrymen at this time. Just look at what's going on around you...and no everything is not ok and is working like the expectations of our forefathers. I truly wish it were.

Obviously you know more than me about our justice system, so I can't debate you there. All I can say is that I prefer not to sink to the lowest common denominator. Doing something because everyone else does is not a good enough answer in my eyes. Just because Enron did not play fair doesn't mean I'll sink to that level. I agree there are LOTS of crooks out there.

 

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[ColdwaterHotrod]

In the beginning this data collection box was to aid mfg’s in the development of safety air-bags so they could learn more in the real world. Then once it got out that this info also showed speed at the point of impact, a lawyer decided to use it in a court room because someone said their air-bag didn’t go off & that’s why there client was hurt and wanted to sue for millions. Then from that point forward it spun out of control with the mfg’s adding more & more sensors to clear themselves of any wrong doings or claims by another party looking to make a quick buck in this sue happy world.

 

And IMO this is what forced the mfg’s to start adding this technology to each & every car so the liability is limited to the moment of impact & not showing the last 5-10 minutes of your driving style. If you’re a law abiding honest person, you have nothing to worry about, if you’re a irresponsible, lying, wild & crazy person, then do want you want to do with it, but if you hit a kid because of your careless driving style, then this system was implemented because of others just like you & you have no one to blame.

[carnut]

In the beginning this data collection box was to aid mfg’s in the development of safety air-bags so they could learn more in the real world. Then once it got out that this info also showed speed at the point of impact, a lawyer decided to use it in a court room because someone said their air-bag didn’t go off & that’s why there client was hurt and wanted to sue for millions. Then from that point forward it spun out of control with the mfg’s adding more & more sensors to clear themselves of any wrong doings or claims by another party looking to make a quick buck in this sue happy world.

 

And IMO this is what forced the mfg’s to start adding this technology to each & every car so the liability is limited to the moment of impact & not showing the last 5-10 minutes of your driving style. If you’re a law abiding honest person, you have nothing to worry about, if you’re a irresponsible, lying, wild & crazy person, then do want you want to do with it, but if you hit a kid because of your careless driving style, then this system implemented because of others just like you & you have no one to blame.

My turn to jump in on this. Based on what a lot of you guys are saying is "If you are arrested for a crime, you don't need an attorney if you did nothing wrong" It is the same thing with the black boxes, they can't possibly record everything and you could be liable based on a few of the facts. Obviously I think they are wrong and a violation of privacy as well as protection of your rights.

[Ripthedealeroff]

Apathy is the biggest problem in our country today.

[Jolly Roger]

Apathy is the biggest problem in our country today.

 

I don't know what the biggest problem in our country is, but I would argue that lack of accountability is higher on the list than apathy....

[ColdwaterHotrod]

No it's not.... it's Dr. Jack Kevorkian getting released from the Coldwater, Michigan State prison tomorrow. Look for me to run around in the nude to draw attention away from my car since every reporter in the world will be there covering this story

[carnut]

No it not.... it's Dr. Jack Kevorkian getting released from the Coldwater, Michigan State prison tomorrow. Look for me to run around in the nude to draw attention away from my car since every reporter in the world will be there covering this story

Can you pin point an exact time, for you running that is

[carnut]

Nothing to worry about Snoop. Coldwater and all

[iastatefan]

My turn to jump in on this. Based on what a lot of you guys are saying is "If you are arrested for a crime, you don't need an attorney if you did nothing wrong" It is the same thing with the black boxes, they can't possibly record everything and you could be liable based on a few of the facts. Obviously I think they are wrong and a violation of privacy as well as protection of your rights.

 

Obviously, your indoctrination did not take. Please report to your nearest political education camp for a refresher course.

 

Here's some homework for you:

 

All postal mail should be on postcards, not in envelopes. Desire for envelopes indicates criminal activity; or do you have something to hide?

 

All Internet usage should be posted on the Homeland Security website, sorted by name. Or are you a terrorist?

 

Still not convinced? Here's the Big Gun -- "everything changed after 9-11." If we allow the average American car driver hide behind "privacy" when it comes to recording devices in their cars -- the terrorists have won.

 

Okay, let me be serious for one second. I'm always shocked at how quickly we tend to be willing to give up freedoms in the name of "security", but the solution seems simple to me in this case. There should be an option to turn the thing off. It's not much different than turning off your seat belt warning chime, for example. For those who believe it's completely benign and no prosecutor would ever misuse the data, leave it on. For those less convinced, turn it off.

 

I've read of some insurance companies putting true GPS-enabled black boxes on cars in exchange for reduced rates. That makes more sense to me than some unpublicized device, with no input from the public or debate about its intrusion on privacy, being widely dispersed among us. Put a price on your privacy, or not.

 

If the LEO quoted in the article is correct, that this information can be gathered just fine without black boxes (by examining the damage and applying physics) than make them optional.

[Alloy Dave]

For those who believe it's completely benign and no prosecutor would ever misuse the data, leave it on. For those less convinced, turn it off.

And for those of us who think there are some people out there who would speed, run into you, then find the black box and throw it in a river before the police could get there so that they were not charged, then lie in court about their speed, I say we make them mandatory on every car.

 

Admittedly there's a bit of sarcasm in the above comment...but you get my point.

 

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[aonebadbone]

And for those of us who think there are some people out there who would speed, run into you, then find the black box and throw it in a river before the police could get there so that they were not charged, then lie in court about their speed, I say we make them mandatory on every car.

 

Admittedly there's a bit of sarcasm in the above comment...but you get my point.

 

AD

Sorry Dave they are in every car now and I think that the manufacture is making them smarter than they were when they when they first came out like all the computers in these cars.

However this thing cant tell who ran the stop light or who made the illegal right turn.

You're on you're own there. thats why you carry a camera in the car.

I drive nice I cant replace My car ether and I had to jump through hoops just to get her.

But I don't want to rely on the black box to save my butt in court

Most importantly it's the insurance company that wants to get there hands on it. You know the reason that they want it is so they don't have to fix You're car.

Its just like the garbage in You're can at the curb You don't want anyone digging in there because thats You're garbage same with the information in You're car its You're garbage

and You should not let them dig in You're garbage without You're permission.

[jcthorne]

I am not worried about the data in the box. I am worried about the 'interpretation' of that data by the opposing side. Again, it will come down to who has the money to fight and who does not. The data is not black and white, it does not indicate fault in an accident, only a few of many hundreds of variables that happend in the seconds before the crash. its the data that is not there that bothers me as the intrepeter 'fills in the blanks'.

[Alloy Dave]

Sorry Dave they are in every car now and I think that the manufacture is making them smarter than they were when they when they first came out like all the computers in these cars.

However this thing cant tell who ran the stop light or who made the illegal right turn.

You're on you're own there. thats why you carry a camera in the car.

I drive nice I cant replace My car ether and I had to jump through hoops just to get her.

But I don't want to rely on the black box to save my butt in court

Most importantly it's the insurance company that wants to get there hands on it. You know the reason that they want it is so they don't have to fix You're car.

Its just like the garbage in You're can at the curb You don't want anyone digging in there because thats You're garbage same with the information in You're car its You're garbage

and You should not let them dig in You're garbage without You're permission.

I agree with the permission part. If I was accused of murder, and I knew my alibi was in the garbage can I'd put by the curb the night before, you can bet your booty I'd be out there scavenging the garbage. Choice is good.

[DZelenka]

Dan,

 

If I were on the other side of you, I would ask you to prove that my client tampered with or knew about any black box (unless he was an automobile mechanic for Ford). You're making a presumption...I would call your motion hearsay, period! You don't have to live with anything. That's the one thing in law that is not constant...you just need the right counsel. I fight to win...period. Also, it sounds like you're also acting as jury.

You aren't an attorney, are you?

[Alloy Dave]

You aren't an attorney, are you?

I know he has been...not sure if he's still doing it.

[Ripthedealeroff]

I am not worried about the data in the box. I am worried about the 'interpretation' of that data by the opposing side. Again, it will come down to who has the money to fight and who does not. The data is not black and white, it does not indicate fault in an accident, only a few of many hundreds of variables that happend in the seconds before the crash. its the data that is not there that bothers me as the intrepeter 'fills in the blanks'.

 

You get in a wreck you'll have to torch the car.

[iastatefan]

And for those of us who think there are some people out there who would speed, run into you, then find the black box and throw it in a river before the police could get there so that they were not charged, then lie in court about their speed, I say we make them mandatory on every car.

 

Admittedly there's a bit of sarcasm in the above comment...but you get my point.

 

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Well, why don't we add a hard drive and fill the thing with data. Add a wireless card, and have portals download all the information every time you stop at a gas station. Oh my, looks like you broke the speed limit at some point! Here's your ticket. Hey, how's that custody battle going? Not good? Subpoena the hard drive and claim your kid was in the car when the speed limit was broken. Heck, add GPS and question what parts of town were driven through.

 

I know, I know -- only a criminal like me would rather not let things get to that point.

[iastatefan]

I agree with the permission part. If I was accused of murder, and I knew my alibi was in the garbage can I'd put by the curb the night before, you can bet your booty I'd be out there scavenging the garbage. Choice is good.

 

That was my point earlier -- honestly, you should check into the GPS/tracker thing for lower insurance rates. Sounds like you're cool with it, and from what I recall the savings were pretty decent. (Of course, I have absolutely no idea exactly where they're doing this stuff.)

 

(I think the scenario above is a bit of a straw man. Who wouldn't scavenge in the garbage if it would prove them not guilty of murder? However, I think most court cases say their is no choice -- your garbage is not your garbage and anyone is free to rifle through it once it leaves your house. Now, I disagree with that -- but it's not like I'm going to protect my garbage from prying eyes.)

[Ripthedealeroff]

Check out this article in the AP. As if anyone didn't already know what these things would be used for. The authors last name is pretty cool though 8-)

START OF ARTICLE**************************

 

Vehicle 'black boxes' being used in litigation

By MATTHEW FORDAHL

Associated Press

 

No one disputes that Michelle Zimmermann lost control of her 2002 GMC Yukon as she drove on a two-lane highway in Massachusetts one snowy afternoon last January. Her friend died after the SUV slammed into a tree.

 

Zimmermann claims she was driving within the posted 40 mph speed limit, but like millions of other Americans the 33-year-old didn't know that her vehicle had a "black box." Monitoring her driving, it recorded the last few seconds before the crash.

 

Bolstered by data that they say indicates Zimmermann was driving well above the speed limit, prosecutors have charged the Beverly, Mass. woman with negligent vehicular homicide. She has pleaded innocent and faces up to 2 1/2 years in jail if convicted.

 

An estimated 25 million automobiles in the United States now have so-called event data recorders, a scaled-down version of the devices that monitor cockpit activity in airplanes. Like aviation recorders, automobile black boxes mainly receive attention after an accident.

 

What the devices record increasingly finds its way into courtrooms as evidence in criminal and civil cases, leading some privacy advocates to question how the recorders came to be installed so widely with so little public notice or debate.

 

"It's like having a government agent driving around in the back seat of your car," said Bob Weiner, Zimmermann's defense attorney and a former prosecutor. "I think it's a tremendous invasion of privacy."

 

Most people apparently don't even know whether the vehicles they drive are equipped with event data recorders. Nearly two-thirds of people surveyed by an insurance industry group knew nothing about them.

 

"The real issue is one of notice, and the problem arises from the fact that information is being collected about people's driving behavior without them knowing," said David Sobel, general counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "If drivers knew about the device, they could at least then begin asking questions."

 

Automakers and regulators have ignored basic privacy questions, leaving individual courts to decide such issues as who owns the information and whether a warrant is required to access it, he said. Some studies have questioned the data's reliability and accuracy.

 

Prosecutors, police and accident reconstructionists say the boxes yield information no different from what can be gleaned from crushed metal, skid marks and other evidence at the scene. Now, they say, calculations can be backed up.

 

"It's appearing in prosecutors' cases in support of the normal reconstruction," said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, director of the Collision Safety Institute.

 

A number of recent court cases across the country have involved event data recorders.

 

In early June, Edwin Matos of Pembroke Pines, Fla., was sentenced to 30 years in prison for slamming his car into a vehicle driven by two teenage girls, killing both. Data from the recorder showed he was driving more than 100 mph just seconds before the crash.

 

In April, Arlington Heights, Ill., police officer Charles Tiedje received a $10 million settlement after data from the hearse that struck his squad car contradicted claims that the driver blacked out. The device showed the supposedly unconscious driver accelerated and braked in the moments before the October 2000 crash.

 

The devices' primary function is to monitor various sensors and decide whether to fire air bags. But secondary and more recently installed features in many recorders store data from a few seconds before a crash.

 

Though capabilities vary widely among carmakers, most recorders store only limited information on speed, seat belt use, physical forces, brakes and other factors. Voices are not recorded.

 

General Motors Corp. has been using recording-capable devices, called Sensing and Diagnostic Modules, since the 1990s to help improve safety and gather statistics. GM spokesman Jim Schell said consumer privacy has always been a top concern.

 

"We collect the data with the permission with the owner or the person who is leasing the vehicle," he said. "When that data is collected, we take great care to assure confidentiality."

 

The modules helped GM figure out why some air bags were deploying inadvertently, leading to a recall in 1998 of more than 850,000 Cavaliers and Sunfires.

 

But there's a lot more interest in the data beyond engineering -- namely, from lawyers.

 

GM and, more recently, Ford Motor Co. now allow outsiders to access the data by buying a $2,500 reader built by Santa Barbara, Calif.-based Vetronix Corp. The company says its primary customers are accident reconstructionists, law enforcement and insurance companies.

 

So far, about 1,000 of the devices have been sold, primarily in the United States and Canada. The company hopes to reach deals to cover data from other car makers.

 

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has been studying data recorders for years, trying to determine whether the auto industry should standardize the equipment. Any decision could be years away, and there's no guarantee privacy would be addressed then. Agency spokesman Tim Hurd said state courts should decide what's admissible.

 

Haight, a former San Diego police officer, dismisses the privacy concerns because driving -- and crashes -- are public.

 

But Sobel argues that drivers at the very least have a right to know that their actions might be recorded. He also fears that data recorders will converge with other devices -- such as locators and voice recorders -- now finding their way into cars.

 

"It's hard to say that there is general public acceptance of this when the public has no idea about it," he said.

I yanked mine out...airbags cause more injury than not in my opinion anyway (if that is going to be an effect of the disconnection).