FordGeek Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Check out this article in the AP. As if anyone didn't already know what these things would be used for. The authors last name is pretty cool though 8-) START OF ARTICLE************************** Vehicle 'black boxes' being used in litigation By MATTHEW FORDAHL Associated Press No one disputes that Michelle Zimmermann lost control of her 2002 GMC Yukon as she drove on a two-lane highway in Massachusetts one snowy afternoon last January. Her friend died after the SUV slammed into a tree. Zimmermann claims she was driving within the posted 40 mph speed limit, but like millions of other Americans the 33-year-old didn't know that her vehicle had a "black box." Monitoring her driving, it recorded the last few seconds before the crash. Bolstered by data that they say indicates Zimmermann was driving well above the speed limit, prosecutors have charged the Beverly, Mass. woman with negligent vehicular homicide. She has pleaded innocent and faces up to 2 1/2 years in jail if convicted. An estimated 25 million automobiles in the United States now have so-called event data recorders, a scaled-down version of the devices that monitor cockpit activity in airplanes. Like aviation recorders, automobile black boxes mainly receive attention after an accident. What the devices record increasingly finds its way into courtrooms as evidence in criminal and civil cases, leading some privacy advocates to question how the recorders came to be installed so widely with so little public notice or debate. "It's like having a government agent driving around in the back seat of your car," said Bob Weiner, Zimmermann's defense attorney and a former prosecutor. "I think it's a tremendous invasion of privacy." Most people apparently don't even know whether the vehicles they drive are equipped with event data recorders. Nearly two-thirds of people surveyed by an insurance industry group knew nothing about them. "The real issue is one of notice, and the problem arises from the fact that information is being collected about people's driving behavior without them knowing," said David Sobel, general counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "If drivers knew about the device, they could at least then begin asking questions." Automakers and regulators have ignored basic privacy questions, leaving individual courts to decide such issues as who owns the information and whether a warrant is required to access it, he said. Some studies have questioned the data's reliability and accuracy. Prosecutors, police and accident reconstructionists say the boxes yield information no different from what can be gleaned from crushed metal, skid marks and other evidence at the scene. Now, they say, calculations can be backed up. "It's appearing in prosecutors' cases in support of the normal reconstruction," said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, director of the Collision Safety Institute. A number of recent court cases across the country have involved event data recorders. In early June, Edwin Matos of Pembroke Pines, Fla., was sentenced to 30 years in prison for slamming his car into a vehicle driven by two teenage girls, killing both. Data from the recorder showed he was driving more than 100 mph just seconds before the crash. In April, Arlington Heights, Ill., police officer Charles Tiedje received a $10 million settlement after data from the hearse that struck his squad car contradicted claims that the driver blacked out. The device showed the supposedly unconscious driver accelerated and braked in the moments before the October 2000 crash. The devices' primary function is to monitor various sensors and decide whether to fire air bags. But secondary and more recently installed features in many recorders store data from a few seconds before a crash. Though capabilities vary widely among carmakers, most recorders store only limited information on speed, seat belt use, physical forces, brakes and other factors. Voices are not recorded. General Motors Corp. has been using recording-capable devices, called Sensing and Diagnostic Modules, since the 1990s to help improve safety and gather statistics. GM spokesman Jim Schell said consumer privacy has always been a top concern. "We collect the data with the permission with the owner or the person who is leasing the vehicle," he said. "When that data is collected, we take great care to assure confidentiality." The modules helped GM figure out why some air bags were deploying inadvertently, leading to a recall in 1998 of more than 850,000 Cavaliers and Sunfires. But there's a lot more interest in the data beyond engineering -- namely, from lawyers. GM and, more recently, Ford Motor Co. now allow outsiders to access the data by buying a $2,500 reader built by Santa Barbara, Calif.-based Vetronix Corp. The company says its primary customers are accident reconstructionists, law enforcement and insurance companies. So far, about 1,000 of the devices have been sold, primarily in the United States and Canada. The company hopes to reach deals to cover data from other car makers. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has been studying data recorders for years, trying to determine whether the auto industry should standardize the equipment. Any decision could be years away, and there's no guarantee privacy would be addressed then. Agency spokesman Tim Hurd said state courts should decide what's admissible. Haight, a former San Diego police officer, dismisses the privacy concerns because driving -- and crashes -- are public. But Sobel argues that drivers at the very least have a right to know that their actions might be recorded. He also fears that data recorders will converge with other devices -- such as locators and voice recorders -- now finding their way into cars. "It's hard to say that there is general public acceptance of this when the public has no idea about it," he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aonebadbone Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 I know about the black box. The manufacture hides it inside the car usually under a front seat I have a 2000 Chrysler Cirrus and it is under the console. if You are involved in a accident the information in there is You're personal information because You own the car and all it's content's. Kind of a sticky issue because the manufacturers don't tell You it is in there spying on You. and the dealer has access to it when you go in for service and what other information dose the little black box contain. I wonder if You could unhook it and the car would function like normal. I think that if You were involved in a accident than You should remove said box and throw in to the east river so they could not use it against You in a court of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1fever Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Well if its an addition, you should be able to get rid of the memory device without changing the operation of the safety features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 ..well unless you are part of the minority driving like a madman thru traffic, you are more likely to benefit from the information that these provide. If someone causes a wreck involving me, I will be more than happy to have them look into my black box, as well as the other guy's, so that the truth will be fully known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69b302 Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Yet another freedom lost. Our privacy laws suck in the US. I work for a company with internaltional locations, and the HR department has to be seperate for the US and Europe, because the privacy laws in Europe are for the people not for the gov. "He who sacrifices Freedom for Safety deserves neither" Ben Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aonebadbone Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 ..well unless you are part of the minority driving like a madman thru traffic, you are more likely to benefit from the information that these provide. If someone causes a wreck involving me, I will be more than happy to have them look into my black box, as well as the other guy's, so that the truth will be fully known. `That Black box is not there for You're benefit that is why the dealer didn't tell you about it. they can use it against you in warranty cases. Truth, its all a matter of interpretation. It may look different from the other side of the line. Also we have no way to find out how much information these things store or for how long. Keep a camera in the car and don't let anyone get there hands on You're little black box. Remember It was supposed to be a secrete from You. by someone You can't trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aonebadbone Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Yet another freedom lost. Our privacy laws suck in the US. I work for a company with internaltional locations, and the HR department has to be seperate for the US and Europe, because the privacy laws in Europe are for the people not for the gov. "He who sacrifices Freedom for Safety deserves neither" Ben Franklin Ben Franklin I like that guy He was smart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcobra Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Anyone know where our black box is (or if we have one for sure)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpretzel Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Anyone know where our black box is (or if we have one for sure)? The owner's manual mentions the "black box", but I don't know where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcobra Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 The owner's manual mentions the "black box", but I don't know where it is. Really? I missed that. What do they call it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpretzel Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Really? I missed that. What do they call it? I can't remember what they call it and I'm at work, so I can't look it up. I seem to remember a mention of a recording device to help in accident investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2FST4U Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Anyone know where our black box is (or if we have one for sure)? The "black box" is the restraint control module. It is the heart of the air bag system. The dealer can't access the crash information only the RCM manufacturer such as TRW has that ability. The module can be disconnected but the air bag system will not function in an accident. So you may die in a crash without the bags but there will be no data recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alloy Dave Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 I think that if You were involved in a accident than You should remove said box and throw in to the east river so they could not use it against You in a court of law. By throwing it in the river, you're throwing away any evidence that may clear you if you were really doing nothing wrong. So you're saying that if you were doing something wrong, this is your opportunity to cover it up? Don't get me wrong, I don't like the things either as a matter of principle. But if you're doing something wrong...own up to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2FST4U Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 By throwing it in the river, you're throwing away any evidence that may clear you if you were really doing nothing wrong. So you're saying that if you were doing something wrong, this is your opportunity to cover it up? Don't get me wrong, I don't like the things either as a matter of principle. But if you're doing something wrong...own up to it. Problem is the box isn't easily accessable, with the necessary tools it can take up to 30 miniutes to gain access! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 A small explosive device could do the trick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 It's legal in small quantities, or was that something else I was thinking of. They both have to do with something plastic, you light both of them, nope, I can't think of what the other could be, must be the C-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 By throwing it in the river, you're throwing away any evidence that may clear you if you were really doing nothing wrong. So you're saying that if you were doing something wrong, this is your opportunity to cover it up? Don't get me wrong, I don't like the things either as a matter of principle. But if you're doing something wrong...own up to it. Dave, You've just uncovered the problem with our current system of justice. I know first hand how it works. I work in it. You may be innocent , but if the other side has a better attorney you may be found negligent and guilty. If it makes it any easier to understand just remember the OJ Simpson trial. I would throw away any government monitoring device in the river if given the chance. I don't want to get into politics but did Enron play fair, Haliburton, etc. We live in the best country in the world and being a true patriot I give into no one nor am I in a state of denial like a lot of our countrymen at this time. Just look at what's going on around you...and no everything is not ok and is working like the expectations of our forefathers. I truly wish it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 `That Black box is not there for You're benefit that is why the dealer didn't tell you about it.they can use it against you in warranty cases. Truth, its all a matter of interpretation. It may look different from the other side of the line. Also we have no way to find out how much information these things store or for how long. Keep a camera in the car and don't let anyone get there hands on You're little black box. Remember It was supposed to be a secrete from You. by someone You can't trust. +1000...if anyone finds the black box on our GT-500's please let the forum know where it's located so that we can go hunting. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 C4 C6 whatever. to me one is a Ford product and the other a Chevy product. I think this is a job for Jay Tucker at JLT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regalt87 Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 They have been installing cameras with audio in our fire trucks. They show the crew inside the cab and a view looking forward. Were not happy about it as you can understand. But from a risk management point of view I can see there position on it. Apparently there have already been a few accidents were we have been cleared from liability as a result of the camera. (we run 100,000 calls a year in a large metropoliton area) I tell my guys you also have to understand we have agreed to this employment and entered into a contract (one we fought for) and part of the agreement was to behave. We are expected to drive the truck safely which is also out lined in our SOP's and as far as saying inappropriate things, they are not paying us to act that way! Does your employer have a right to know what your doing? They are paying for a service you have agreed to provide, aren't they entitled to know they are getting it? Sorry for the rant. Someone mentioned the vehicle data recorders and warrenty. If they deny a claim based on you hot rodding your car why did they make it 500 hp. What did they expect you to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcthorne Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Well, if you are in an accident, it would be well worth your while to maintain possesion of the car and its data. This means have the car towed to a lot or company that works for YOU, not the police impound or the default wrecker that shows up. Course, if you are unconcious thats pretty hard to do. If you have the data in your posession, the other interested parties cannot simply help themselves to it. Get your lawyer involved before turning that data over to anyone. Especially Ford. It is your car and your property. You do have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZelenka Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Discovery in civil cases and search warrants in criminal cases will get the other side access to the box. You really cannot do anything about it. If the box is missing or tampered with the other side's attorney will be able to argue that you destroyed evidence. Not only is there a cause of action against you for the destruction, but he will be able to infer that you tampered with it to hide evidence of your wrong doing. There will be a legal presumption that the information on the recorder was harmful to your case. You will lose more than you gain. I hate the concept of the thing, but I think that we must live with it. Dan Attorney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2FST4U Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 +1000...if anyone finds the black box on our GT-500's please let the forum know where it's located so that we can go hunting. Many thanks. The box is silver metal approx. 5 inches square and located under the console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmpireStateGT500 Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Does anyone know how to get access to the data? I'd like to see what's there! Would a dealership give me a printout and interpret it for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1fever Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 No as mentioned earlier only a few companies liscenced by ford make the readers and provide it to select groups mentioned in the article. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 The box is silver metal approx. 5 inches square and located under the console. Thank you 2F! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07Shelby#6200 Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Discovery in civil cases and search warrants in criminal cases will get the other side access to the box. You really cannot do anything about it. If the box is missing or tampered with the other side's attorney will be able to argue that you destroyed evidence. Not only is there a cause of action against you for the destruction, but he will be able to infer that you tampered with it to hide evidence of your wrong doing. There will be a legal presumption that the information on the recorder was harmful to your case. You will lose more than you gain. I hate the concept of the thing, but I think that we must live with it. Dan Attorney 1+ Also, as far as you towing the car to your prefered lot because you are the "owner" will not work out in most cases. If the accident involves any serious injury the police will impound the vehicle until the investigation is complete. You have no say in this at that time. You can hire an attorney and he can file to get the car back but I guarantee you it will be after they are done looking it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 Discovery in civil cases and search warrants in criminal cases will get the other side access to the box. You really cannot do anything about it. If the box is missing or tampered with the other side's attorney will be able to argue that you destroyed evidence. Not only is there a cause of action against you for the destruction, but he will be able to infer that you tampered with it to hide evidence of your wrong doing. There will be a legal presumption that the information on the recorder was harmful to your case. You will lose more than you gain. I hate the concept of the thing, but I think that we must live with it. Dan Attorney Dan, If I were on the other side of you, I would ask you to prove that my client tampered with or knew about any black box (unless he was an automobile mechanic for Ford). You're making a presumption...I would call your motion hearsay, period! You don't have to live with anything. That's the one thing in law that is not constant...you just need the right counsel. I fight to win...period. Also, it sounds like you're also acting as jury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Roger Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 I don't have a problem with this. A great many people are killed in car crashes in this country every year, and if these boxes help sort out what happened and who is at fault then I'm all for it. Airplanes have them, why not cars? Both kill people from time to time. If the existence of these devices was better publicized, then perhaps people might think twice before pulling a bonehead move that could lead to an accident, because they will know that they are being recorded. Better publicity might actually save some lives. If these boxes are used ONLY to help determine what happened when an accident occured, then I'm ok with it. I don't think the information should be used for other purposes without the owner's consent, however. Just my opinion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCrazy Posted May 31, 2007 Report Share Posted May 31, 2007 ..well unless you are part of the minority driving like a madman thru traffic, you are more likely to benefit from the information that these provide. If someone causes a wreck involving me, I will be more than happy to have them look into my black box, as well as the other guy's, so that the truth will be fully known. I agree. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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