Matt Kenseth and Toyota and NASCAR

[ilmor]

National

Association for

Stock

Car

American

Racing

 

Why is toyoduh in an American event!?!?! Better yet... when are they leaving?

 

Should Dodge be ousted too?

 

 

[2010KonaBlueGT]

actually it is National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing. Not necessarily American.

 

Yep, AUTOMOBILE, not "American".

 

But having said that, the rule book says, or at least used to say, "American made Automobiles".

 

When Toyota wanted in, NASCAR said Toyota's are made in America so they qualify.

 

 

Phill

[ilmor]

I don't care if Tata Indigos run so long as Fords run and win. If Ford leaves, I leave.

 

 

[JeffJ]

actually it is National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing. Not necessarily American.

 

The Penske penalties have been reduced but I noticed they did not give the points back to Kezelowski and Longano as they did Jimmy Johnson last year. They reduced the suspensions. IMO, nascar has no credibility as they are flagrantly in the tank for Hendrick and Chevy. Sort of like the media and Obama. And no I do not want this to go off topic to Obama.

 

The person that is the final arbiter for penalties is a retired General Motors executive that worked for GM for over 40 years. No bias there.

And Ryan Newman came out and made disparaging remarks about NASCAR during an interview during the race but NASCAR did not take any action against him as they did Denny Hamlin and others in the past.

tAnd Tony Stewart cursed on live interview but they chose not to do anything to him. Of course Stewart just runs the 5,6, and 7th Hendrick cars since you can only have four cars on a team. And nascar wonders why their ratings are down. It is because they are, IMO, morally corrupt and just running a business for themselves.

 

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. This engine penalty is not even in the same realm as the penalty against JJ last year. The pillar issue is something that is looked at and measured at every race and is easy to measure. There was an actual gray area here that caused complications to which there is no gray area any longer in the rules for this part. Internal engine penalties must be judged much more critically and penalties much stiffer. These measurements are in very clear black and white. Engines are not torn down every race and are much more difficult and costly to do. There is a very clear weight in black and white to the connecting rods. Not questionable in any way what so ever. It can't get much more clear than that down to the gram. There is no question about the legality of the part. Until you work on the other side of the fence, I can understand how it might look like the infractions are the same and should be penalized as such, but there is for more to it then that.

[JeffJ]

The final appeals process did reduce the point penalties today:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nascar-panel-reduces-jgr-penalties-191146670--nascar.html

[07SGT]

the penalties have been reduced for both Penske and Gibbs. But I noticed Matt Kenseth had most of his points restored and Kezelowski and Longano did not have any points restored. That still gives an advantage for the championship to Hendrick and Chevy, again. I agree there is black and white with the engine but in this case it was a stupid mistake, not someone trying to gain an advantage. And the 27 gram difference in weight was more of a negative to Toyota than an advantage.

 

No one, IMO, has cheated more than Chad Knaus and Hendrick. Do you remember last year, before a race, when Knaus leaned in the window and talking to JJ and said if you win be sure to crack the back. That meant slam the rear of the car and cause damage, so they could not accurately measure the vehicle etc. Knaus did not realize he was being recorded. IMO, there has has been dramatic bias towards Chevy for many years and it will probably continue until Ford finally drops out again.

 

BTW, since we were discussing American cars do you know why Toyota wanted to race in NASCAR? It had nothing to do with the sale of Camry's.

[07SGT]

http://www.mikemulhern.net/MikesTake/nascar-s-championship-playoffs-hate-to-say-it-but-if-you-re-not-in-a-chevy-you-might-as-well-pack-up-and-go-home/

[ilmor]

http://www.mikemulhern.net/MikesTake/nascar-s-championship-playoffs-hate-to-say-it-but-if-you-re-not-in-a-chevy-you-might-as-well-pack-up-and-go-home/

 

 

Interesting perspective.

 

 

[JeffJ]

Interesting perspective.

 

 

Other than the fact that Dodge won the championship last year. With a Toyota in second.

[07SGT]

Dodge won last year but JJ and crew were in contention until the last race. I think NASCAR would do anything, yes anything, to have Dale Jr win. Then it is win-win as a Hendrick Chevy would win and Dale Jr, most popular driver would win a championship. NASCAR cant make him win but they can hurt all the competition to improve his chances. It is unbelievable they would reinstate points for JJ last year and Kenseth this year but not Keselowski and Longano. But then again Keselowski was in, I believe, 2nd or 3 rd place when the penalty was placed. Just keep taking points away from the others and the Hendrick cars will rise to the top. And you can bet that NASCAR is upset with Dodge for leaving also, just like they were mad at Ford in the early 70's. If Brian France, and the rest of NASCAR, IMO, ever get tired of their day job in racing administration they are already experienced enough to run for Congress or President.

[ilmor]

 

 

Other than the fact that Dodge won the championship last year. With a Toyota in second.

 

 

I agree. I don't really buy into the Chevrolet / Hendrick conspiracy theory. NASCAR needs all of them...Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota and whoever else they can get...to survive. They have done a tremendous amount (too much in my opinion) to try and make all the cars "equal" (so much that they had to back off w/ the current Gen 6 - which, by the way, has improved the racing).

 

My biggest problem w/ NASCAR at the moment is this constant attention to Danica Patrick. I believe attention should be earned. At least they've backed off of the Dale Jr. fantasy a little bit lately.

 

 

[JeffJ]

I agree. I don't really buy into the Chevrolet / Hendrick conspiracy theory. NASCAR needs all of them...Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota and whoever else they can get...to survive. They have done a tremendous amount (too much in my opinion) to try and make all the cars "equal" (so much that they had to back off w/ the current Gen 6 - which, by the way, has improved the racing).

 

My biggest problem w/ NASCAR at the moment is this constant attention to Danica Patrick. I believe attention should be earned. At least they've backed off of the Dale Jr. fantasy a little bit lately.

 

 

Yea, I always enjoy reading all the conspiracy theories. I've been on the other side as an official for so long with multiple organizations over the years (SCCA, SCCA Pro, Formula Renault, Grand-AM, and NASCAR) and know how it works that they are enjoyable to read. I'm just glad thay my paychecks from NASCAR always clear the bank!

 

In Grand-AM it was always that we favored Lexus for a few years because Ganassi won so often. Then they switched to BMW power and continued to win, so it must be that we favor Ganassi and bend the rules for them. Money and talent most always consistently rise to the top no matter how strict and consistent the rules are. Top funded teams have consistent hp and crews to almost always be perfect. A couple of years ago probably the least funded Daytona Prototype team (AIM out of Canada) was also consistently near the top and won a couple of races because the technical rules package was very good and they are a very dedicated group. However Ganassi still took the championship. No matter how good the rules are, being perfect every time with every pit stop and having the unlimited funding to have perfect cars at every race is just hard to beat. It is possible, but it certainly takes dedication and lots of work. Not that the better funded teams do not work hard, they just can afford to always make sure they have the right people in the right spots all the time. In reality while as officials you try to be extremely consistent in how you look at every car and always look at the same things with the top finishing cars, you tend to be even more critical on the top funded teams as they have the means to play in any gray area if it exists, and have the means to be on the ragged edge of every rule, or sometimes over the edge and you try to catch those things. It's just human nature to try and look at everything you can which may give one car an advantage over another.

[QuadCam]

Exactly, Toyota is known for thier tendancy to whatever it take to win. A admirable trait IF they could stay within the rules

 

 

Sadly, this seems to be the rule Toyota follows in their North American market conquest.

They aren't happy with being a major player here, they need to dominate. It's the Pearl Harbor mantra all over again...

 

Why are they in NASCAR? I thought it was only for American manufacturers?

 

 

I a word - CA$H! If they meet resistance, Toyota throws money at it.

I, speaking for many, wish the 3 North American Brands represented solely - GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

 

Secondo, Secondo, Secondo,.......... I think more Toyotas are built here than Japan (or close to it) ............Plus I am sure Toyota drove a Semi Truck load of Cash to the office of Nascar................. You know the old saying.......... "Money Talks.........Bull Chit Walks".

 

 

How sad is that! ...And for all those that say Toyota employs American works, I agree. However, all the profits do not stay here in North America. They go to the Island Nation of The Rising Sun!

 

I'm sure it was ALL about the money...

 

 

Capitalism at it's finest! NOT!

Rackteering? You betcha! The France family are such whores!

 

Because they run on "International Speedways"!! LOL

 

Dodge is owned by Fiat and they still run in Trucks...

 

 

I'm not sure if 61.8%(July 2012) is "Ownership." I would concede, "a controlling interest." There are some American pension funds as stock holders here as well...

Yet, not the point - Fiat wants Chrysler/Ram/Jeep to suceed! Toyota wants GM, Ford, Chrysler, and the Korean brands to die!

You Toyota and Lexus owners dilute the American economy everytime you buy a Camry/Corolla/Tundra and their Lexus equivalents. Wise Up, will ya!

 

Rant Over...

[svtkeith]

I agree. I don't really buy into the Chevrolet / Hendrick conspiracy theory. NASCAR needs all of them...Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota and whoever else they can get...to survive. They have done a tremendous amount (too much in my opinion) to try and make all the cars "equal" (so much that they had to back off w/ the current Gen 6 - which, by the way, has improved the racing).

 

My biggest problem w/ NASCAR at the moment is this constant attention to Danica Patrick. I believe attention should be earned. At least they've backed off of the Dale Jr. fantasy a little bit lately.

 

Well said and I agree!!

[07SGT]

Toyota is not in NASCAR to sell more Camrys. That is not the purpose.I am not necessarily a conspiracy theorist but when you see Chevy win over 30 championships in the last several decades you do have to wonder.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=5yyuUtRptBQC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=%22Got+the+call%22+in+nascar+and+Richard+Petty&source=bl&ots=bG1y0wklm0&sig=cKDUapPWjjjnl6fBHy745z3--RU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EDuNUbrYL4rXyAG5toDQDA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22Got%20the%20call%22%20in%20nascar%20and%20Richard%20Petty&f=false

 

 

and NASCAR is a privately owned business. They are not regulated by the government (Thank God) or there would be more corruption. But they are in a position to "promote" certain people that may also have a positive effect on their business and subsequently the bottom line. Danica is a hot issue and NASCAR is doing everything they can to promote her. Why? Well, #1, she is hot. That attracts more men to view the sport. She is female and that attracts more women to view the sport. And she is a minority and NASCAR is reaching out to minorities to increase demographics and market share. So we should not be surprised to hear that there are rumors that NASCAR does what it wants. Again, if they quit the day jobs they have a hell of a future in running corrupt governments.

Why does the U.S. government hate the Mafia? They hate competition.

 

Conspiracy theories aside there is no way to justify how JJ and Kenseth had their points reinstated and Keselowski (defending champ) did not. AND Dale Jr. was fined a few years ago for making a crude remark while celebrating a victory and Tony Stewart this year was not fined for calling Longano a pussy on live television and how he was going to bust his ass. But Stewart was not fined. and Stewart's team mate, Ryan Newman, criticized NASCAR to the extreme last week on live tv but was not penalized but Denny Hamlin stated that the new Gen 6 cars were not necessarily better and received a 25 K fine.

 

If nothing else I think we could agree that the penalties do not always make sense nor are consistent. The fine against Carl Long for having an engine that was 17 one hundreths of an inch over size is a prime example. Carl was just a 4th rate team and he lost everything was NASCAR crashed down on him. He appealed but his penalty was not overturned or reduced. It's not who you know but who you blow.

[JeffJ]

If nothing else I think we could agree that the penalties do not always make sense nor are consistent.

 

No, but we can certainly agree to disagree! From what I've seen, the penalties are laid down fairly consistently based on the facts and circumstances. The appeals process is more like a court where things can change. Both sides lay down their evidence and further gathered facts. In the second level appeals process, a jury then reviews all of that and either changes or holds up the penalties. Then in the final step a judge can do the same. Trying to compare the Penske suspension penalty to the JJ body or the Kenseth engine penalty are no where in the same ball park. Parts of the evidence reviewed in the appeals process would include competitive advantage, etc. I can guarantee you that there were big differences found there. All's good. It's just like in anything else, what the media feeds to the public is the only thing that you have to go on sometimes. Pretty easy to form impressions and ideas based on what is pushed out in the media.

 

I certainly do not always agree with the final outcome in my own judgement, but the process is what it is. I could have never laid down that final judgement on the Carl Long deal. But that is putting my own emotion into what again I can only gather from the facts that can be read about the case in the media. Then again it's pretty hard to stomach many of the decisions of cases we see on the news every day in public courts.

[07SGT]

I concur re the courts. As many attorneys have told me........Don't expect justice from the courts. Justice is often times to the highest bidder, or he that has the political influence or the dollars for court prep that someone with a public defender could never hope to accomplish.But we apparently agree about the Carl Long issue. NASCAR put him out of business. And his wife out of the racing business also. And the only way to explain it is, IMO, Carl does not have the juice or influence to have his penalty reduced. And how do we explain how certain people are fined for comments and others are not? (STewart, Newman, etc).

[ilmor]

Last night's Nationwide race resulted in a Toyota 1-2-3........

[07SGT]

What I remember about the Johnson violation last year was that the C post had been modified (sanded, contour changed) and the rule book is very specific in that there are no modifications allowed to the C post. That is pretty black and white. Well JJ's C post had been modified, it was caught , he was given a penalty of 25 points and the points were over turned. There was also a suspension for Knaus and that was overturned. There was a fine for Knaus which was left standing. so the penalty, by the fine being finalized, showed there was a violation and they did not take points away from JJ. But with Penske they modified the penalty but let the driver points reduction stay in place. IMO, the penalties are not consistent, especially if you are a Ford.

[svttim]

Nope.

 

You weigh the rod ends. Big end and little end. You find the lightest rod and remove material from each one, end from end until they all match weights. On BOTH ends.

 

Then you find the lightest piston, remove material from the wrist pin bosses until the piston weights all match.

 

Then you find the longest rod and match it to the piston with the least deck height and the shortest rod to the piston with the most deck height (and match all of them in between).

 

Each rod will weigh exactly the same. Each piston will weigh exactly the same. Each PAIR (piston/rod combo) will weigh exactly the same. Each combo will be VERY close to the same length from the center line (CL) of the rod journal to the deck of the piston.

 

That's how you balance the reciprocating assembly.

 

The rotating assembly is the flywheel/clutch, crankshaft and balancer spin balanced and computer balanced by adding or removing weight opposite of the light or heavy spot (generally balanced as one unit).

 

The piston/rod weight matching is part of the balancing process and the piston/rod *length* matching is part of the blueprinting process.

 

I've built a lot of big inch, big horsepower engines and I know of what I speak.

 

 

Phill

 

 

 

No doubt Phil, this is from Eagle

 

"Is my crank balanced?" and Target Bobweight Explained

 

Since different rods and different pistons are different weights, it is impossible to make a crankshaft that is balanced "right out of the box" for any rod and piston combination. All crankshafts must be balanced to your specific rod and piston combination. When an Eagle crankshaft is listed as "internal balance" or "external balance" this is stating how this crank is intended to be balanced. It can be balanced otherwise, but it is much more difficult to do so. Eagle crankshafts are listed with a "target bobweight". This is an approximation (+/-2%) of the bobweight the crankshaft is roughly "out of the box". Because of the tolerance (+/-2%) the crankshaft cannot be considered balanced. For instance, for a crankshaft listed as having a 1800 target bobweight. The actual range of bobweights one of those cranks might have is from 1764 (1800-2%) to 1836 (1800 +2%). It might even be at the high end of that range on one end and the low end of that range on the other! This is not usually a problem because Eagle crankshafts are designed to have a target bobweight higher than most typical rod and piston combinations. Therefore, in most cases you will only need to remove material to balance the crankshaft instead of adding material. The main benefit of the target bobweight is to help the machine shop know what to expect before balancing so that a more accurate price estimate can be made. Eagle will balance a new crankshaft at the time of purchase. You will need to provide the bobweight you want it to be balanced to and the bobweight must be below the target bobweight listed for the crankshaft ordered. Our balancing price does not include addition of heavy metal

[ilmor]

Toyota won last night again.

 

Fords weren't even close.

 

 

[07SGT]

After awhile, many people think that Ford has to work much harder to win. There has to be a reason why there was not a Ford in the top 5 all night long. One of the best engines and everything else is supposed to be equal?

 

I am sure that all teams are treated equally in NASCAR. But they must have read the Orwell book, Animal Farm where upon the revolution the animal administration declared all animals are equal. Years later they noted the declaration stated all animals are created equal .........but some are more equal than others. Again, it is a private business. If they want to show favoritism that is their business. But at least be honest about it. Like I said, they are probably preparing for their next career in national politics where they can tell everyone they are here to help us .

 

Oh yea, and we can trust our own government to remain fair. And the IRS would never be used to harass private citizens or groups like conservatives or the tea party. That is a conspiracy also.

[ilmor]

So...there's no question that all the chassis are the same. Plus, Ford builds their own engines. I don't think it's possible that Chevrolets and Toyotas are both able to bypass the rules, or have their own less restrictive rules, without someone spilling the beans. There are simply too many people involved. I thing Ford just hasn't figured out how to get their engines right.

 

 

[07SGT]

Ford seems to be getting the engine right at restrictor plate races, i.e.: Daytona and Talladega. And they seem to have good power on the fast tracks like Michigan, Atlanta and others. But there is an issue, I believe, with the suspension. They are not getting the power to the ground as fast as the other cars. The other cars are either handling better or they are able to accelerate sooner coming out of the turn.

 

And I am not saying that NASCAR favors Chevy every week. Just enough to give them a slight edge. And that is all that is needed. And again, there is no way they can deny favoritism with taking points from Penske for a violation this year, and not taking points from JJ last year for a flagrant violation. And the Carl Long issue is just a travesty. It has long been known in NASCAR that if you cross them they have a very, very, long memory. That is why Penske and others come out with glowing remarks about the NASCAR penalty and appeal system.i

 

n reality the Ford teams are told one word before they go in to tech inspection and the hearings..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................BOHICA.

[07SGT]

Naaaaaaaaaaaah. NASCAR would never rig anything or give an advantage to any particular driver.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2013/05/15/danica-patrick-nascar-all-star-fan-vote/2162581/

[ilmor]

Naaaaaaaaaaaah. NASCAR would never rig anything or give an advantage to any particular driver.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2013/05/15/danica-patrick-nascar-all-star-fan-vote/2162581/

 

 

Yep, that's a great example of political correctness out of control.

 

 

[David Hawkins]

Ford seems to be getting the engine right at restrictor plate races, i.e.: Daytona and Talladega. And they seem to have good power on the fast tracks like Michigan, Atlanta and others. But there is an issue, I believe, with the suspension. They are not getting the power to the ground as fast as the other cars. The other cars are either handling better or they are able to accelerate sooner coming out of the turn.

 

And I am not saying that NASCAR favors Chevy every week. Just enough to give them a slight edge. And that is all that is needed. And again, there is no way they can deny favoritism with taking points from Penske for a violation this year, and not taking points from JJ last year for a flagrant violation. And the Carl Long issue is just a travesty. It has long been known in NASCAR that if you cross them they have a very, very, long memory. That is why Penske and others come out with glowing remarks about the NASCAR penalty and appeal system.i

 

n reality the Ford teams are told one word before they go in to tech inspection and the hearings..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................BOHICA.

 

 

I know at the beginning of the Year only half of the Cars had EFI, do they all have EFI now?

[07SGT]

YES, IT IS MANDATORY. AND THEY ARE REQUIRED TO ALL RUN THE SAME ECU FOR THE FUEL INJECTION.

[David Hawkins]

Why is everyone haten on the Babydoll Danica? The Viewing Count for NASCAR has gone UP since Danica signed on and NASCAR knows this. Danica sell tickets. Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, Joey Lagono, etc all were in the same boat when they signed on.

[svtkeith]

Why is everyone haten on the Babydoll Danica? The Viewing Count for NASCAR has gone UP since Danica signed on and NASCAR knows this. Danica sell tickets. Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, Joey Lagono, etc all were in the same boat when they signed on.

 

I agree tes..I'd like to see anyone on this site try and do what she does on the track it's easy to hate but just go try it.