Nitro Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 This should put to rest the question, which is faster. Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeljgt500kr Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 I want to see it against a ZR1, that's more of a fair fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 I want to see it against a ZR1, that's more of a fair fight. The Camaro and the Mustang are both in the same class (Pony Car). That's a apples to apples race. Also price wise, they're way closer to each other. A ZR1 Corvette is a 2-seat SPORTS CAR. That's a apples to oranges race. The ZR1 is HOW much more $$$ than a GT500? How can you say that's more of a "fair fight"? I think SOMETHING happened to the Camaro on the second run (on launch). He lost the race (without question) on the launch. He was so far back at the 300' mark there was no more race. The 1st run was a good solid run (and launch) for both cars. I also have a feeling the Camaro driver forgot to turn off his traction control because he couldn't even do a burn-out on the first run. I'm also wondering if the Camaro was a MT or AT car. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Ok, now lets see the road race! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeljgt500kr Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 The ZL1 is missing about 80-90HP and the same in torque from the GT500, that's not fair in my book. It is obvious who should win, big deal. If you can't take a car with 15-20% more HP and torque and about the same weight and win, there is something seriously wrong. These two cars would not be in the same class at NHRA either, so why compare apples to oranges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 That is pretty clear now: The GT500 has it on the drag strip The ZL1 has it on the road race track The ZR1 has nothing to do with those pony cars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 That is pretty clear now: The GT500 has it on the drag strip The ZL1 has it on the road race track The ZR1 has nothing to do with those pony cars... I cant agree. What road course does the ZL1 win on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 That is pretty clear now: The GT500 has it on the drag strip The ZL1 has it on the road race track The ZR1 has nothing to do with those pony cars... I agree with you, I just don't have any hard evidence to back up the RR winner. I'm basing my ASSUMPTION on the fact that GM states for the record, that the ZL1 was made specifically for a ROAD RACE track, not a Drag Strip. Classic GT500's were more for the drag strip and GT350's were for road courses. I still see it that way with the contemporary GT500 and GT350's. I also think the outcome will (can?) be dictated by how BIG of a road race track they race on. A track with long straights will give the higher HP (and apparently lighter, so easier stopping) GT500 an advantage. It will allow it to 'stretch its legs', so to speak. But on a typical American road course (2 to 2.5 miles, like Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Willow Springs/Buttonwillow, etc.) I think the Camaro will spank a GT500. That magnetic dampening is pretty amazing and hi-tech and with shorter straights (meaming more turns), no real advantage for the longer legged GT500 and BIG advantage for the superior suspension on the Camaro (IRS, Mag. shocks, etc.). Still waiting for part two of the vid..... It should be interesting, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 I saw an aritcle a while ago (might have been from Road and Track) that had the 2013 GT500 and the 2013 ZL1 at Laguna Seca and the GT500 barely beat out the ZL1, however they quickly followed that up with a statement that the GT500 used up its tires and brakes so badly on that lap, it could not have repeated the performance whereas the ZL1 could have run its lap times consistently. To me, that means the ZL1 has a clear advantage on the track. Embarassing for the Ford guys when you're getting beat by a car in the same class that is so far down on power. Don't get me started about how strongly I feel the Shelby should come stock with an IRS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY500SS Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 I agree with you, I just don't have any hard evidence to back up the RR winner. I'm basing my ASSUMPTION on the fact that GM states for the record, that the ZL1 was made specifically for a ROAD RACE track, not a Drag Strip. Classic GT500's were more for the drag strip and GT350's were for road courses. I still see it that way with the contemporary GT500 and GT350's. I also think the outcome will (can?) be dictated by how BIG of a road race track they race on. A track with long straights will give the higher HP (and apparently lighter, so easier stopping) GT500 an advantage. It will allow it to 'stretch its legs', so to speak. But on a typical American road course (2 to 2.5 miles, like Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Willow Springs/Buttonwillow, etc.) I think the Camaro will spank a GT500. That magnetic dampening is pretty amazing and hi-tech and with shorter straights (meaming more turns), no real advantage for the longer legged GT500 and BIG advantage for the superior suspension on the Camaro (IRS, Mag. shocks, etc.). Still waiting for part two of the vid..... It should be interesting, Phill I'm of the same opinion................. looking forward to the road course vid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 I also think the outcome will (can?) be dictated by how BIG of a road race track they race on. A track with long straights will give the higher HP (and apparently lighter, so easier stopping) GT500 an advantage. It will allow it to 'stretch its legs', so to speak. But on a typical American road course (2 to 2.5 miles, like Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Willow Springs/Buttonwillow, etc.) I think the Camaro will spank a GT500. That magnetic dampening is pretty amazing and hi-tech and with shorter straights (meaming more turns), no real advantage for the longer legged GT500 and BIG advantage for the superior suspension on the Camaro (IRS, Mag. shocks, etc.). Phill The road course race that would be interesting to see on a domestic track would be Road America. The GT500 would do well on the first half of the track and the Camaro would take over on the back half. That would make for a good race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 The road course race that would be interesting to see on a domestic track would be Road America. The GT500 would do well on the first half of the track and the Camaro would take over on the back half. That would make for a good race. I have a little experience ar Road America. Ill take the GT500, you can have the IRS and the Camaro. Ill even give you a head start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Identical lap times in this test... http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt5002013-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-vs-2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeljgt500kr Posted March 26, 2013 Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 I agree with you, I just don't have any hard evidence to back up the RR winner. I'm basing my ASSUMPTION on the fact that GM states for the record, that the ZL1 was made specifically for a ROAD RACE track, not a Drag Strip. Classic GT500's were more for the drag strip and GT350's were for road courses. I still see it that way with the contemporary GT500 and GT350's. I also think the outcome will (can?) be dictated by how BIG of a road race track they race on. A track with long straights will give the higher HP (and apparently lighter, so easier stopping) GT500 an advantage. It will allow it to 'stretch its legs', so to speak. But on a typical American road course (2 to 2.5 miles, like Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Willow Springs/Buttonwillow, etc.) I think the Camaro will spank a GT500. That magnetic dampening is pretty amazing and hi-tech and with shorter straights (meaming more turns), no real advantage for the longer legged GT500 and BIG advantage for the superior suspension on the Camaro (IRS, Mag. shocks, etc.). Still waiting for part two of the vid..... It should be interesting, Phill Hope you are right about the new GT350's track prowess. I plan to take my 2013 GT350 directly from museum delivery out to Spring Mountain whenever it gets finished. I have driven that course in my ZR1 (factory paid for perk when you buy them), so interested to see how it stacks up, get ready Ron! :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 I have a little experience ar Road America. Ill take the GT500, you can have the IRS and the Camaro. Ill even give you a head start. This will be fun for discussion. Let's say we have a rolling start: How many car lengths do you think the GT500 would have before getting through turn 5? I'm thinking 1-2 at that point and the Camaro will make it up and maybe get a couple of lengths on the GT500 through the Carousel, Kink and Canada Corner. Then it would be a drag race out of 14 and probably a photo finish across the line as the GT500 would make ground on the Camaro up the final hill. Imagine 10 laps of that battle repeating itself every lap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 I have a little experience ar Road America. Ill take the GT500, you can have the IRS and the Camaro. Ill even give you a head start. Yep, you and me both. Still cracks me up when people think that IRS will handle so much better around a track. Take an experienced driver and put him in both cars with equal tires, I'll take the GT500 any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yep, you and me both. Still cracks me up when people think that IRS will handle so much better around a track. Take an experienced driver and put him in both cars with equal tires, I'll take the GT500 any day of the week. OK..... Name one team in the American LeMans Series or the Rolex Sports Car series running a car without an IRS? Roush runs one in the Continental Tire Challenge and to your point is doing very well, however the cars in the challenge series are not running the same setup and are down on horsepower compared to the GT cars in the main series. When the BlackForest Motorsports racing team ran the Mustang with the big boys a couple years ago, they got crushed. My point and my opinion is the GT500 could be a better car with an IRS for road course. http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/mmfp_0706_blackforest_motorsports_ford_mustang_cobra_gt/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeljgt500kr Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Does the 2013 GT500 have a time at the 'Ring to compare with other cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 OK..... Name one team in the American LeMans Series or the Rolex Sports Car series running a car without an IRS? Roush runs one in the Continental Tire Challenge and to your point is doing very well, however the cars in the challenge series are not running the same setup and are down on horsepower compared to the GT cars in the main series. When the BlackForest Motorsports racing team ran the Mustang with the big boys a couple years ago, they got crushed. My point and my opinion is the GT500 could be a better car with an IRS for road course. http://www.musclemus...stang_cobra_gt/ Since I work for the Rolex Series and the Continental Challenge series as a tech official, I can tell you lots of things about these cars. And if you want to compare a street GT500 vs a Street ZL1 Camaro, the closest comparison would be to the Continental cars. The BlackForest Rolex Mustang had nothing to do with the rear end. Heck it wasn't a solid axle. Under the body, it was pretty much a comparable car to all the other GT cars. These cars in GT are IRS, because they are running transaxles in the rear. Not true just IRS rear ends. The article you reference above mentions the Xtrac transmission. It's not a transmission, it's a Xtrac transaxle in the rear. Other than the Porsche, R8, and Ferrari they are all tube frame race cars in GT. Comparison would be a Boss302R vs the Camaro in Continental. The IRS in the Camaro is highly modified from stock to make it work. The solid axle in the Mustang is pretty much unmodified using all the factory pick up points. The results pretty much tell you there with the difference in the cost of the two. Now next year will be a different story as the next gen Mustang will be moving to IRS. Above, we are talking about the two street cars, not fully built race cars. Having driven both, my choice is still the same. An unexperienced driver will have a better time on a road course in the Camaro as it is much more forgiving and certainly more driver friendly. An experienced driver will pull ahead in the GT500. It does take more work, but the power will overcome the slight suspension short comings. I'm not saying the live axle is better. I'm saying it's not bad. It doesn't quite handle as well as the Camaro when comparing these two street cars. Hence why you find many articles finding times equal or slightly favoring the Camaro. These are not normally very skilled road racers. Both the ZL1 and GT500 are both bad arse machines. The GT500 is just the King of the Hill right now. I'm glad they are both monsters that keep the rivalry going. Hopefully Ford has something up their sleeves to keep it going. I'm guessing that 2015 will have the Mustang in trouble as they will probably be without such a big bruiser as the GT500 out of the gate. Who knows? Hopefully they will have something to keep in the game against the ZL1 or whatever Chevy comes out with next. Party on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Since I work for the Rolex Series and the Continental Challenge series as a tech official....... Gotta love it when you find out something new and interesting about someone in coversation whether in person or on a forum. I'm dealing with a true expert and had no idea! Being involved in Grand AM must be really cool. I hear what you are saying and agree all the race cars are highly modified and also agree Continental Challenge cars are closer to stock. We may have to agree to disagree on an experienced driver getting more out of the live axle, but what do I know. Roush seems to have been able to figure out how to be competitive with Stevenson Motorsport and their Camaro. I am pleased about the new Mustang finally hitting the showroom with the IRS and eager to read the reports and comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 Now that it will all be one big organization under United SportsCar Racing, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Last night it was announced the new agreement with DTM to have a similar series to that in 2015. Keeps getting better for Sports Car racing in the US! Should be fun. It's amazing how the Continental Mustangs do so much with so little. This is a last year shot. They are now allowed more brake in the rear this year. Notice the Carroll memorial stickers on the B pillars which all the Mustang teams put on for me at Monterey Laguna Seca last year: Here's a couple shots of the Blackforest Mustang on our scales. Nothing stock under the body of this machine. I can't find any that I took of the rear transaxle set up. Cammer 5.0: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted March 27, 2013 Report Share Posted March 27, 2013 There are several other factors to consider as well...tire choices are huge....driver capabilities between the two cars racing...will the track have bumpy corners, etc. Also I think also in some of the above-mentioned series', take Continental for example, the Boss 302s are restricted or rev-limited in some way to keep their power down so they will be "equal" to the Camaro and other cars...at least that's what one of the owners told me at Indy last year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 This will be fun for discussion. Let's say we have a rolling start: How many car lengths do you think the GT500 would have before getting through turn 5? I'm thinking 1-2 at that point and the Camaro will make it up and maybe get a couple of lengths on the GT500 through the Carousel, Kink and Canada Corner. Then it would be a drag race out of 14 and probably a photo finish across the line as the GT500 would make ground on the Camaro up the final hill. Imagine 10 laps of that battle repeating itself every lap. I concur with the two car lengths. Camaro closes in comming out of 5 but never recovers. Camaro suspension would have no advantage in the Carousel and looses ground from the Kink through the Kettle. Gains a bit back between Canada corner (damn that turn) and 14 but GT500 pulls the Camaro by 1.5 seconds in the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 I cant agree. What road course does the ZL1 win on? Try to get the lap times of the GT500 on the Ring...( with the 2013 test mule - a modified 2012 with all 2013 upgrades - and the later one with the real 2013 production car) none published! Those of the ZL1 are public and documented ...and very quick. Would you really assume Ford would have kept them secret if they would be any good? Plus there are many tests conducted in the US that show exactly that. Not only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeljgt500kr Posted April 2, 2013 Report Share Posted April 2, 2013 Try to get the lap times of the GT500 on the Ring...( with the 2013 test mule - a modified 2012 with all 2013 upgrades - and the later one with the real 2013 production car) none published! Those of the ZL1 are public and documented ...and very quick. Would you really assume Ford would have kept them secret if they would be any good? Plus there are many tests conducted in the US that show exactly that. Not only one. I agree, with many test laps at the 'Ring with the 2013 GT500, they are keeping it all secret for a reason. I have heard rumors the best 'Ring time for the GT500 would have placed it about #40 on the list, that would have been embarrassing for Ford. I suspect they are readying another run, with the best driver they can find, tires, tweaks, etc. They can run but they can't hide forever in avoiding 'Ring documentation if they want to claim "SuperCar". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Hope you are right about the new GT350's track prowess. I plan to take my 2013 GT350 directly from museum delivery out to Spring Mountain whenever it gets finished. I have driven that course in my ZR1 (factory paid for perk when you buy them), so interested to see how it stacks up, get ready Ron! :happy feet: If you expect the GT350 to compare or to compete with your ZR1 on a race track you're going to be very dissapointed... It does not take anything away from the SHELBY !!! but it's quite another league. Even the Z06 goes around any Mustang or any Shelby on a road race track. (I am sure someone will post -again- a video with a Corvette "crusing on a track with a grandma at the wheel" and a S197 passing it by like the Vette is going backwards...LOL ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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