Is a Shelby GT a Pre-Title or Post-Title car?

[bnoslo]

Yeah, i've had to "educate" a service advisor or two before, and sometimes it wasn't even my car.

[JeffJ]

OK, so this seems to be the real difference between say my 2013 GT350, and the older Shelby GTs. I went to my Ford dealer after talking to SAI and placing the order with them, and ordered the Mustang GT from the Ford dealer, it was built to the SAI specs option codes, and drop shipped to 'Vegas from Flat Rock. But I am still struggling to see how the Shelby GT is a pre-title car with just an open invoice as the difference.

 

 

The Shelby GT was not ordered by an individual like what you did with the GT350. The Shelby GT was ordered and paid for by Ford to be sold in dealers. People did not special order a Shelby GT by buying a Mustang GT and having it converted. They bought a Ford offered product called a Shelby GT. As others have said, there are special instances of museum delivery or modified Shelby GTs at time of purchase with SC upgrades and such, but those are modifications to the already offered car being built. Ford does not offer the GT350 (at least not this year...)

[mikeljgt500kr]

The Shelby GT was marketed by Ford as a Shelby GT. They were sold as Shelbys. The Ford ads didn't say "buy a Mustang GT and convert it to a Shelby GT." You could not order a Mustang GT and then decide to have it converted to an SGT by Shelby. The GT 350 is purchased first as a Mustang, then it is converted to a Shelby GT 350 therefore it is post title. It doesn't matter if it was shipped to Shelby direct from Ford - it is still post title. Some Shelby GT/SC's were converted before the owner took possession, but there is no such car as a pre-titled Shelby GT/SC.

 

Ford has not marketed or sold a GT 350 since 1984 I believe. Ford did market and sell Shelby GT's during 2007 and 2008.

 

The GT 500KR in '08 and '09 were pre-titled also.

 

 

OK, so the difference is that Ford marketed and sold them as a Shelby, like they do the GT500 today (except those are SVT built cars, not SAI built) or the GT500KR in '08-'09, directly by their dealers only, and you couldn't send a Mustang GT yourself to SAI for conversion to a Shelby GT. Now I think I understand the distinction, thanks.

[Wayne Grey]

Easy way - All work done at SAI before the car is sold - PRE TITLE (all SHELBY GT's 07 & 08 & I believe the 500KR's also)

Car sold as done by Ford or Ford's SVT - POST TITLE

Car sold and then sent to SAI for additional work or up-grades - POST TITLE (Although the upgrade could have been done on a Pre Title GT - the car would still be a pre title car)

now I'm confused

[mikeljgt500kr]

Easy way - All work done at SAI before the car is sold - PRE TITLE (all SHELBY GT's 07 & 08 & I believe the 500KR's also)

Car sold as done by Ford or Ford's SVT - POST TITLE

Car sold and then sent to SAI for additional work or up-grades - POST TITLE (Although the upgrade could have been done on a Pre Title GT - the car would still be a pre title car)

now I'm confused

 

 

Maybe this is a distinction without any real difference...... :happy feet:

[shelbymotorsports]

Me thinks people are making this discussion more difficult than it needs to be. The easiest way to differentiate between a pre-title and a post-title SAI built Shelby is, could you purchase the completed car new off the dealer showroom floor.

 

2007-08 Shelby GT and 2008-09 KR the answers is yes, these cars were built pre-title, meaning that the finished car could be purchased new from the dealership.

 

2011-13 GT350, SuperSnakes, Terlingua, GTS, etc the answer is no, these cars were built as post-title, meaning that you could not walk into your Ford dealership and purchase the completed car new off the showroom floor.

 

GT-H cars as mentioned technically fall in between pre & post title but are generally considered a pre-title car.

 

And before anyone posts that they've seen a GT350 or SS on the showroom floor with "no miles" on it those cars were technically used and are indeed post-title.

 

Also keep in mind that SAI is an automobile manufacturer and for us to sell a GT350 or SS as a pre-title car would require extensive Federaly required testing, ie crash and emission testing. Post-title cars do not have nor require this type of testing.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Steve

[Torch40]

Thanks Steve but that's way to simple for a forum thread. This one hasn't even got to the point of personal attacks yet. That's no fun!

Time to jump over to the always entertaining oil threads...

[mikeljgt500kr]

Thanks Steve but that's way to simple for a forum thread. This one hasn't even got to the point of personal attacks yet. That's no fun!

Time to jump over to the always entertaining oil threads...

 

Or the threads on tire and wheel and supercharger and......

[ilmor]

We could start a rumble by bringing up "Real" vs. "Not Real" Shelby's....... :-)))

[shelbymotorsports]

We could start a rumble by bringing up "Real" vs. "Not Real" Shelby's....... :-)))

 

 

Now those threads are always entertaining

 

Steve

[ChicagoChris]

The Real vs Not Real Shelby threads are best left to the Cobra sites.

 

Thanks Steve for your clarification on pre vs post title mods.

 

I didn't know the 08-09 KR's were considered pre-title mods.

[Doug_GT350]

Me thinks people are making this discussion more difficult than it needs to be. The easiest way to differentiate between a pre-title and a post-title SAI built Shelby is, could you purchase the completed car new off the dealer showroom floor.

 

2007-08 Shelby GT and 2008-09 KR the answers is yes, these cars were built pre-title, meaning that the finished car could be purchased new from the dealership.

 

2011-13 GT350, SuperSnakes, Terlingua, GTS, etc the answer is no, these cars were built as post-title, meaning that you could not walk into your Ford dealership and purchase the completed car new off the showroom floor.

 

GT-H cars as mentioned technically fall in between pre & post title but are generally considered a pre-title car.

 

And before anyone posts that they've seen a GT350 or SS on the showroom floor with "no miles" on it those cars were technically used and are indeed post-title.

 

Also keep in mind that SAI is an automobile manufacturer and for us to sell a GT350 or SS as a pre-title car would require extensive Federaly required testing, ie crash and emission testing. Post-title cars do not have nor require this type of testing.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Steve

 

Which I've been told is why the Shelby GT's did not have the Deep Draw hood, they would have had to go through crash tests. The GT-H's were shown as owned by Hertz before the hood was added.

[Doug_GT350]

The Real vs Not Real Shelby threads are best left to the Cobra sites.

 

 

You're taking all the fun out of it Chris....

[EL SHELBY]

Me thinks people are making this discussion more difficult than it needs to be. The easiest way to differentiate between a pre-title and a post-title SAI built Shelby is, could you purchase the completed car new off the dealer showroom floor.

 

2007-08 Shelby GT and 2008-09 KR the answers is yes, these cars were built pre-title, meaning that the finished car could be purchased new from the dealership.

 

 

 

That is the simplest explaination but a problem with that logic is created when dealers order a Mustang to be shipped to SAI for modification in order to sell a 'new' GT350. I don't know, but must a dealer actually take title possession in order to have a GT350 built?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Me thinks people are making this discussion more difficult than it needs to be.

 

 

 

LMAO...Yeah, now THERE'S a understatement!

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

The easiest way to differentiate between a pre-title and a post-title SAI built Shelby is, could you purchase the completed car new off the dealer showroom floor.

 

 

 

I wouldn't go that far Steve.

 

Phil Long Ford-Motor City had a new, untitled GT350 sitting on their showroom floor for sale. The window sticker from Shelby said "made especially for Phil Long Ford" on it rather than a personal name. It was one of the first year (350 max) cars and I saw it with my own two eyes. And it was the dealers 'claim to fame' that it was the only one like that, however I have heard of at least one other MSO papered GT350.

 

 

Phill

[JeffJ]

I wouldn't go that far Steve.

 

Phil Long Ford-Motor City had a new, untitled GT350 sitting on their showroom floor for sale. The window sticker from Shelby said "made especially for Phil Long Ford" on it rather than a personal name. It was one of the first year (350 max) cars and I saw it with my own two eyes. And it was the dealers 'claim to fame' that it was the only one like that, however I have heard of at least one other MSO papered GT350.

 

 

Phill

 

 

All GT350's came with a sticker that states "Made Especially for _______". That proves right there who paid for having the conversion done. Phil Long ordered the Mustang, and paid Shelby to have it converted. Many of the first GT350's were ordered and paid for by dealerships trying to make a buck. Again, Ford did not sell it that way. Phil Long did. Phil Long may have said it's the only one like that, but there are many dealerships who did this.

[shelbymotorsports]

I wouldn't go that far Steve.

 

Phil Long Ford-Motor City had a new, untitled GT350 sitting on their showroom floor for sale. The window sticker from Shelby said "made especially for Phil Long Ford" on it rather than a personal name. It was one of the first year (350 max) cars and I saw it with my own two eyes. And it was the dealers 'claim to fame' that it was the only one like that, however I have heard of at least one other MSO papered GT350.

 

 

Phill

 

 

Phil,

 

How did you determine the car was untitled and/or did not have an in-service date from Ford? Also you do realize that was not a true & legal "Monroney Label" from SAI. If one was to look closely you would see it has no EPA or crash worthiness data on it that would be required if the car was a true pre-title build.

 

Steve

[2010KonaBlueGT]

How did you determine the car was untitled

 

 

I'm on very good terms/friends with the SVT Manager, Robert Barnes and he told me so. He has never steered me wrong (or lied to me) before and I have absolutely NO reason to doubt his word. And in fact, I was considering buying the car so the issue of title/non-title would have come up had I continued with my quest. They were asking a STOOPID ADM for it (it was the owners (Jay Chimino) sons deal) and they know my 'line in the sand' is MSRP so it was 'no deal' for me.

 

As it turns out, the owners son (Mike Chimino) sold the car for MSRP (plus Shelby's price) and gave the buyer a really STOOPID amount on the GT500 he traded in on it ($38K for a White/blue '07 GT500....TRADE-IN!).

 

I told them after the deal was done, *I* would have bought the car at MSRP with a GREAT trade-in on my car too.

 

The car was also being sold as a NEW CAR (vs. a Used Car) which can only be done with a new car. Even a Demo is considered a used car. I know this by first hand experience from when I bought a "Demo" Honda Prelude with 5 miles on it. They were calling cars "Demo's" for allocation purposes (to get more than they were allocated). I bought mine, paid new car taxes & fees on it, then they called me back a couple of weeks later and had to refund me a chunk of change and ammend the contract to reflect it was a "Used Car".

 

Regardless, like the post just above yours says, there were other dealers who said the same thing. You can see the registry, can't you? I don't remember the CSM but it was low and it was a '11 (or whatever the first year was). Are you able to speak on it being in the registry as belonging to Phil Long? Hmm, I guess that really doesn't prove titleship (is that a word?) or not though....

 

My understanding was that it was some sort of a "sneak though" deal with Shelby American but I can't speak on that either way, because I don't know for fact and those that do, would be crazy to admit it.

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

 

1. Again, Ford did not sell it that way. Phil Long did.

 

2. Phil Long may have said it's the only one like that, but there are many dealerships who did this.

 

 

1. That's a real good point. FORD (Motor Company) did not sell the car, Phil Long Ford did.

 

2. That's what I said in my previous post. I know of at least one (or maybe two) that did the same thing. It would be the difference between the new owner being able to say he is the ORIGINAL owner, or the SECOND owner. That would be a HUGE deal in my opinion (historically, a "one owner" classic car fetches more than a multiple owner car).

 

I still have to question the "New Car" vs. "Used Car" aspect of the sale. I know that it is against *FEDERAL* Law to modify a car prior to (original) sale so......(hmmmmmm).

 

 

Phill

[JeffJ]

I suppose that Steve can settle the point, but my guess is that if your name does not come after "Made Especially for _______", on the Shelby Sticker, you're not the original owner. If so, that means that the car was sold as a GT350 which went through crash tests and all that other manufacturer business.

[ChicagoChris]

The 350 mods were made to the Mustang post the MSO date.

Shelby did the 350 mods at the request of Phil Long Ford and Phil Long Ford paid Shelby directly.

This is a post title mod car.

[mikeljgt500kr]

I do think the situation where a dealer sells you a post-title car, like a GT500 Super Snake or a GT350, after they bought a Mustang GT or GT500 from Ford and sent it to SAI for mods, is an interesting distinction. In that case you are buying, technically, a second-hand (second owner) used car, not a new car, no matter the mileage on it. And yet there are many dealers I have seen that order these cars for their inventory to sell, that charge big markups on the total stickers (Ford+SAI) of the cars.

 

After I ordered my GT350 (the base car from a local Ford dealer and did SAI contract myself), a big city dealer about 80 miles from me called to ask if I wanted them to put my name on a GT350 they were having "done" that would arrive soon to hold it for me. I told them, no, I have already ordered one. They sounded put out and like I had made a mistake doing that since they had this one almost there for me to have. Now that I think about all the info on this thread, I am glad I didn't go through them. Why would you need them since you get a second-hand used car from them plus a markup, but a new car at less than sticker if you do it yourself?

[sgt1864]

We could start a rumble by bringing up "Real" vs. "Not Real" Shelby's....... :-)))

 

The real ones are the cars ---------------, right. The not real we're the cars------------, right.

That my opinion on that, I'm not starting that war.

This is a very informative subject of pre title & post title.

[SGT-C0056]

I will stay out of it...It seems that I start things sometimes.....Great explanation Steve

[Torch40]

One more tidbit. I think there were some agreements between Shelby and certain dealers that got some of the first production cars. They had to keep the cars in the showroom for an agreed upon time before they sold it. Post title of course. B)

[Larry T]

Me thinks people are making this discussion more difficult than it needs to be. The easiest way to differentiate between a pre-title and a post-title SAI built Shelby is, could you purchase the completed car new off the dealer showroom floor.

 

2007-08 Shelby GT and 2008-09 KR the answers is yes, these cars were built pre-title, meaning that the finished car could be purchased new from the dealership.

 

2011-13 GT350, SuperSnakes, Terlingua, GTS, etc the answer is no, these cars were built as post-title, meaning that you could not walk into your Ford dealership and purchase the completed car new off the showroom floor.

 

GT-H cars as mentioned technically fall in between pre & post title but are generally considered a pre-title car.

 

And before anyone posts that they've seen a GT350 or SS on the showroom floor with "no miles" on it those cars were technically used and are indeed post-title.

 

Also keep in mind that SAI is an automobile manufacturer and for us to sell a GT350 or SS as a pre-title car would require extensive Federaly required testing, ie crash and emission testing. Post-title cars do not have nor require this type of testing.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Steve

 

 

Thank you Steve for the clarification.

[SVT NAJA]

We could start a rumble by bringing up "Real" vs. "Not Real" Shelby's....... :-)))

 

 

Or... perhaps which years of the GT500 have fugly rears???

[bnoslo]

Steve is totally right with his explanation. As far as buying a car that was modified by the dealership before selling to a customer, that is still a post-title car. Dealers have 2 ways to sell a car from the manufacturer, they can buy it from them, or they can do what's called flooring. Either way they do business they can modify the cars they have to sell without having to put a name on the title. They can do this because they haven't sold the car to anyone yet. The SAI mods are considered in the same category as if they added a spoiler at the dealer, granted this is much more complex, but it's the same thing. So if you were to buy a car that the dealer had upgraded already, it's the same as if you take it there yourself, it isn't used, it's still a new car.

[ilmor]

I think we may have successfully filibustered this topic.