shelbyeuropa Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 I found my 1969 FORD MuscleParts. This was something mentioned in a different Topic in which the subject concerning the 351W heads on to a 289-302 Block (5.0L). The Book has 79Pages but this site will only let you upload 500K Per post so I will have to reduce Qu and only on the subject. There is a lot of info from 289 to 428 in different stages If anyone would like more info I can keep adding Replies or email a complete book. PM. I have other FORD Books from the 60’s to 80’s (SVO Books) I know there is one on placing 351C to Windsor block and will try to scan and post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Page 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Page32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Page33 End of Stage 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmn444 Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 Not sure what the orig post was about, but if I'm going thru the trouble of building the bottom end and putting domed pistons in to compensate for the chamber size, I'd opt for some much better heads than stock 351w stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 351w heads vs. 302w heads are pretty much identical other than you can find some with different chambers, intake runners, etc. They are interchangable as to water ports, manifolds, etc. Now if you go with a Cleveland head, that is a whole different story. It used to be a pretty tough thing to do. Now however, there are a few different companies building manifolds etc to make this combination work. I have 2v Cleveland heads on the 302w block in my SWB Thunderbird. This engine was built back in the 80's with, at the time, the only manifold available to make this work. These manifolds are very hard to come by now, but again, there are a couple new ones on the market now. Edelbrock now builds a Cleveland based aluminum head with water ports to directly fit a 351w block using a 351w manifold. I sure wish that was around when we built the basically 2v head boss screamer that I have. I'll post some pics later when home on a computer where I can access the pics. Running the 351w heads on a 302 was a pretty trick thing to do in the late 60's-70's for better flow, but now you can buy out of the box W style heads from many aftermarket companies which far out flow any stock W head from that time period. Now if you want all period correct Ford parts, then there are combinations there which certainly do help build power on a period 302 build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 You have to remember this is a 1969 FORD book and everything written used the technology the time it was written. Of course you can not compare to the Technology of today. It's like comparing the 1984-86 SVO head, Turbo, EFI, ECU High Technology of that time against to the EgoBoost Technology. I'm sure in 30+ years people will comment on the 2013 Shelby 5.8L and the Shelby Focus ST Technology. Remember Moore's Law Technology Doubles every 18months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmn444 Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'm not sure what the goal of all this is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 One advantage of using the 351 heads is the ports are larger and you could use larger valves on the 351 head. You could swap out the Ford and put in, dare I say, heresy, Chevy 2.2 intake and 1.6 sodium filled exhaust valves. The other option was to buy the Ford GT-40 heads for the 302. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 I maybe wrong and please correct me if I am but if you look at the 1969-73 351W intake ports they are much larger than the GT40 or GT40P heads. The aftermarket including FORD SVT heads you would have to purchase a intake and exhaust manifold.As Jeff mention about the 351C 2V heads would be the best street heads available with Lot more mods. In the case of the 351W it's almost a bolt on as mention in the Article. And to 444 the main reason I posted this was on a previous where there was questions and I knew I had the article. Now for those who would not be interested in the swap then MY QUESTION TO YOU IS.... "WHY ARE YOU EVEN READING THIS????" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmn444 Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 I still say that if you are spending money for domed pistons and machining the heads for bigger valves and likely new valve springs to keep up with a good cam then you may as well spend that money on some afr's or tw's and have a much better breathing head. Pretty sure most aftermarket and the gt40 heads work with the stock intake and exhaust, gt40p heads need diff exhaust though. Saving 50 lbs going aluminum doesn't hurt either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Point being, for many years, there were no aftermarket choices and a 351 Windsor head would outflow the standard 289 or 302, I used to stack car race with a 351 windsor block with Austrailian cleveland heads, Made good power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 I found The Original Topic: GT350 to be Made in Detroit? http://www.teamshelb...t/page__st__260 My reply was #265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 The Cleveland heads always breathed better than the Windsor heads. But there were other heads also. As I mentioned there were GT 40 heads and the heads from the 68 Trans-Am 302 Mustang. They were a very, very, limited production and next to impossible to obtain. Those were a Windsor style head and not a Cleveland. What is surprising is that the NASCAR teams used Windsor engines for years and were very competitive with the Chevy's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 The unobtainable heads in 1968 were called Tunnel Port Heads and I believe the ports were larger than the Boss 302 Cleveland. Very, very, rare and not a factory option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 If I remember right back in 1964-5 FORD design the 427SOHC and was very successful with the engine and race the engine in 1960’s NASCAR. Well the FORD engineers thought that if it worked for the 427 why not the new 302 right, Wrong they design and made the 302 Tunnel Port for the 1968 Trans-Am. I should also mention that FORD transfer TA assembly from CS Calif to Dearborn and should note that there was 2CS vehicle that was made and raced. As so the 302TP engines are very rare (I think about 40-50) and not to many (especial this Generation) have heard or know about the 302TP. Compare to the 427SOHC which was in the 1969 New Torino Cobra (Talladega name could not be used until the BOSS429 was legit.) I’m not exactly sure but I believe Larry Shinoda was the engineer in charge of the new 1969 design Mustang and found out that in the Cleveland plant a new design 335series engine to be release for 1970. Working with Kar Kraft a special pair of prototype Heads was sent to KK for retrofit to the 302Block Modify and that was the birth of the BOSS 302. One other note the Pre 1974 Windsor Head Rocker Arm is 1.6 Rational while all 335 and 385 Series heads used 1.73 Rational which means with the same cam you just gain HP due to change in Cam timing and increase in Lift. I had also Found the FORD Racing Article: I found FORD Racing book and I will upload the pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Page 65 - 66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Page 67 and 68 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted February 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Page 69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Interesting but Ford never raced the 427 SOHC in NASCAR. Overhead cams were not allowed. Ford used the 427 side-oiler in NASCAR.The Tunnel Port 302 heads developed great horsepower and torque, but only at the upper limits of the engine. It would have been a great small block NASCAR engine for a super speedway, if there was such a category, but there was not. With the huge ports the engine had a very narrow power and torque band. Of course in road racing (Trans Am) you need a broad power band so as to have power when coming out of the curves. In 68 Chevy (Penske and Mark Donohue) won the Trans Am and Ford knew they needed something new and in 69 the Boss 302 debuted. Unfortunately Chevy/Penske/Donohue won again and then Ford won in 70 and then I believe they dropped out of racing after that. 8Also, the 427 SOHC was never a factory engine in the Talladega. The Talladega came with a 428 Cobra Jet engine if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Funny you mention that. Just two weeks ago at a swap meet here in Denver, a guy had two actual NASCAR raced 427 tunnel port engines from the mid 60's. He also had quite a few parts and heads. I thought that I had seen all the FE heads available, but he had some Tunnel Port 427 NASCAR heads there with the biggest round ports that I had ever seen. (If you know your FE's, all the ports are square) I think I could stick my fist through those ports to the valves. I should have taken some pictures, but did not...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yes, there were Tunnel Port heads for the 427 and the 302. The tunnel ports for the 427 were primarily for the super speedways, Talladega, Daytona, Michigan, and others where they basically run wide open the entire race. For the smaller tracks they switched heads so as to have low end torque coming off the corners. Ford had a few misguided years where they thought they could make massive HP but forgot they also needed that wide power band so as to provide HP across a wide range, i.e.: coming off the corners when the RPMs had dropped. The Tunel Port 427's ports were so huge the pushrods actually ran through the port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 SGT you are correct the 427SOHC was used in NASCAR for a very short time when it was intro in 1964 until it was outlawed because of Chrysler. What I meant was the 427 Tunnel Port that’s want happens when I type without thinking Sometimes I think I’m in auto-mode. You are correct again The 1969 FORD Talladega production vehicles did have the 428CJ Q code engine and made between end of Jan 1969 to the end of Feb1969. The race vehicles had the 427 Tunnel Port or the Boss 429 the first race at Daytona Feb 1969 the Talladega name could not be used. The name Torino Cobra was used instead it wasn’t until the BOSS 429 was released then the name Talladega could be used. I should also mention that not all Pre-BOSS 429 were all 427TPs. My Talladega was at the Opening of Talladega 500 Sept 13th 1969 and had the BOSS 429 but was removed at the Talladgea 500 race day the 14th. http://www.timothydike.com/Cadman/Fastcars/stockcar/restored.htm http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/05/car-spotlighttorino-talladega/ http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_0712_1969_ford_torino_talladega/photo_05.html Boy what memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 What is interesting is that the vehicle and engine were to be homologated and Ford was to make a minimum of 500. I believe they made 550+ Talladega body styles. BUT, they never made the Talladega with a Boss 429 engine. They only used the 428 Cobra Jet. Ford claimed they had made over 500 Boss 429's for NHRA drag racing and that should count. NASCAR did not want to argue with the factories back then, neither did SCCA, etc. The other item of interest is that the Talladega, with minimal change to the front end, was equal to the Dodge and Plymouth with the extensive change to the front end and the big wing on the back. and the fenders of the Mercury Cyclone Spoiler II, when placed on the Taladega, were about 1.5 MPH faster on the back straight. Those were the days. Real drafting with sling shot moves on the last lap. IMO, far better than today's racing in NASCAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 SGT you are correct the 427SOHC was used in NASCAR for a very short time when it was intro in 1964 until it was outlawed because of Chrysler. What I meant was the 427 Tunnel Port that’s want happens when I type without thinking Sometimes I think I’m in auto-mode. You are correct again The 1969 FORD Talladega production vehicles did have the 428CJ Q code engine and made between end of Jan 1969 to the end of Feb1969. The race vehicles had the 427 Tunnel Port or the Boss 429 the first race at Daytona Feb 1969 the Talladega name could not be used. The name Torino Cobra was used instead it wasn’t until the BOSS 429 was released then the name Talladega could be used. I should also mention that not all Pre-BOSS 429 were all 427TPs. My Talladega was at the Opening of Talladega 500 Sept 13th 1969 and had the BOSS 429 but was removed at the Talladgea 500 race day the 14th. Boy what memories. The SOHC motor was never used in NASCAR, it was banned after Chrysler filed a complaint. The 427 TP and other varients were used with success. The 302 TP motor lacked the tourqe to be competative. The 69 Boss 302 could well have won the TA title if not for tire issues due to running Tiredstones for the season, multiple failures (I believe the Crapmaro's were on Goodyear) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 The Cleveland heads always breathed better than the Windsor heads. But there were other heads also. As I mentioned there were GT 40 heads and the heads from the 68 Trans-Am 302 Mustang. They were a very, very, limited production and next to impossible to obtain. Those were a Windsor style head and not a Cleveland. What is surprising is that the NASCAR teams used Windsor engines for years and were very competitive with the Chevy's. I could be wrong but, the GT40 head has not been around as long as some of us have been racing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 You are correct about the tires. The top team in 69, for Ford, was Bud Moore and Parnelli Jones was the number one driver. Rufus P. Jones was a Firestone distributor and would not race on Goodyears. And the Bud Moore team was using a different wheel than the camaros. The Camaro's, if I remember correctly, were using minilites and I think the Fords used an American Racing wheel and they had numerous wheel failures during the year. Not only was it Ford v Chevy v MoPar it was also Goodyear v Firestone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 there was also another cylinder head...............the Gurney Weslake small block head.. And a second head, the Gurney Eagle head. One version of those heads did not use a manifold. The carb bolted directly to the cylinder head for a straight shot to the cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbyeuropa Posted March 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I stand corrected the 427SOHC never did hit the 1965 NASCAR tracks but was used in NHRA. In 1969 most NASCAR drivers boycott the race with the opening of the Taladega 500 (First Race) I think because of the tires was unreliable as the speed of the Vehicles was hitting 200+MPH. I remember reading some time ago that the brakes was also failing due to the usage so the Daytona's and Superbird's had a hand lever that when the vehicles was about to corner the driver had to pull the lever which was cable connected to two side flaps to slow the vehicle speed. Once they reach safe for acceleration the drivers had to release the lever. Boy that remind me of the USAF days I was in the Fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 I stand corrected the 427SOHC never did hit the 1965 NASCAR tracks but was used in NHRA. In 1969 most NASCAR drivers boycott the race with the opening of the Taladega 500 (First Race) I think because of the tires was unreliable as the speed of the Vehicles was hitting 200+MPH. I remember reading some time ago that the brakes was also failing due to the usage so the Daytona's and Superbird's had a hand lever that when the vehicles was about to corner the driver had to pull the lever which was cable connected to two side flaps to slow the vehicle speed. Once they reach safe for acceleration the drivers had to release the lever. Boy that remind me of the USAF days I was in the Fighters. Things were getting out of hand, Intitially, NASCAR outlawed the Hemi, that caused a boycot. But, they recanted a year later. Favoritism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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