Sergio on the future Alfa Romeo - NO U.S. Built Engine!

[robertlane]

Sergio Marchionne, head of Chrysler-Fiat told the press at the 2013 Detroit Auto Show touched on the upcoming Alfa Romeo:

 

"I cannot come up with a schlock product, I just won't. I won't put an American engine into that car. With all due respect to my American friends, it needs to be a wop engine. There are some things that are well-done in Italy."

 

What about the 3.6L Pentastar engine, which is rated of the best in the world? Are you Chrysler group products muttin?

Edited January 18, 2013 by robertlane

[JeffJ]

I bet it will also have Lucas electronics.

 

Interesting comment however. Does he really not want the car to succeed in the US with comments like that? One of my buddys which I will see next week in Daytona is pretty high up in Chrysler. I'll have to ask him what he thought about that.

[07SGT]

I remember seeing, in the old days, T-shirts at the race tracks that stated on the front; "Why do the British drink warm beer?"

 

 

and on the back of the shirt it said, "Refrigerators by Lucas Electronics!"

[Secondo]

Obviously he hasn't heard about the great engines that Americans have been building lately. Or he doesn't want to pay for the quality. What a discriminating comment.

[shelbymotorsports]

I bet it will also have Lucas electronics.

 

Interesting comment however. Does he really not want the car to succeed in the US with comments like that? One of my buddys which I will see next week in Daytona is pretty high up in Chrysler. I'll have to ask him what he thought about that.

 

 

You have to remember that Fiat purchased Chrysler as an easy means of distributing Fiat products to the U.S. market. It was cheaper to purchase a bankrupt Chrysler Corp compared to setting up a brand new distribution/dealer network for Fiat vehicles.

 

Steve

[JeffJ]

You have to remember that Fiat purchased Chrysler as an easy means of distributing Fiat products to the U.S. market. It was cheaper to purchase a bankrupt Chrysler Corp compared to setting up a brand new distribution/dealer network for Fiat vehicles.

 

Steve

 

 

I agree with you 100%, and actually a very smart move on their part. It's just comments like that don't bode well to the customer base that they are trying to sell to. I think the Alfa is a great little car really, and hey, I'm Italian.

[ilmor]

Read today that Alfa is teaming with Mazda to produce the new Spider and Miata.

[robertlane]

Read today that Alfa is teaming with Mazda to produce the new Spider and Miata.

 

correct:

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130118/AUTO0104/301180390/1148/auto01/Alfa-Romeo-4C-heading-U-S-by-year-s-end

[David Hawkins]

You have to remember that Fiat purchased Chrysler as an easy means of distributing Fiat products to the U.S. market. It was cheaper to purchase a bankrupt Chrysler Corp compared to setting up a brand new distribution/dealer network for Fiat vehicles.

 

Steve

 

I thought I read that Fiat did not actually BUY Chrysler, it was pretty much given to them (no Money involved).

[shelbymotorsports]

I thought I read that Fiat did not actually BUY Chrysler, it was pretty much given to them (no Money involved).

 

 

Perhaps I should have used the word acquired

 

Steve

[avidShelby]

Perhaps I should have used the word acquired

 

Steve

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat#Acquisition_of_Chrysler

[UK PONY]

I fail to see the issue here. Alfa has made some of the best engines in the world let them continue to do what they do best.

 

No disrespect but European engineers know how to get more power per cubic inch from an engine compared to other parts of the world.

 

Eg. My last car on the other side of the pond produced 160hp from a 1.8 litre 4 cylinder engine (2003 MGTF160), my first car on this side of the Atlantic managed to only get 210hp from a 4.0 litre V6 (2005 Mustang). Doubtless things have improved in recent years but still.

[Secondo]

That engine is high-tech all aluminum 16v performance engine that had been used in lotus racecars. The last-gen Ford 4.0 "Cologne" V6 you refer to was designed in Germany (it beginnings all the way back in 1968!) to be a workhorse engine for many American Ford vehicles from the Ranger, Explorer, Mustang, and even some Mazdas and Range Rovers. It has since been replaced with Ford's new "Duratec" series V6, with a current output of 305hp in the '11-up Mustang.

[UK PONY]

That engine is high-tech all aluminum 16v performance engine that had been used in lotus racecars. The last-gen Ford 4.0 "Cologne" V6 you refer to was designed in Germany (it beginnings all the way back in 1968!) to be a workhorse engine for many American Ford vehicles from the Ranger, Explorer, Mustang, and even some Mazdas and Range Rovers. It has since been replaced with Ford's new "Duratec" series V6, with a current output of 305hp in the '11-up Mustang.

 

 

I'm well aware of everything you've stated (Lotus did use the MG designed K series engine in the Elise, hardly a racecar). I'm simply saying that cubic inch for inch European engines generate more power than their North American counterparts therefore to say that Alfa should put an American engine in their vehicles instead of one of their own design seems, at best, nonsensical. I will concede that fuel grade has some impact here, standard gas in the UK is 95 octane, premium is 98 vs the 87-91 octane at the pumps here.

 

If anyone thinks I'm being disrespectful that's not my intention, I'm simply stating an opinion based on personal experience of car ownership on both continents.

 

For what its worth My CS6 still has that lethargic 4.0 engine, it's been woken up by a blower though

Edited January 20, 2013 by UK PONY

[07SGT]

The Ford 3.5 dual turbo eco boost is hardly a slouch producing 335 hp from only 183 cubic inches.

 

And the Shelby GT 500 is 662 hp from only 353 cubic inches. These are factory stock engines.

 

And you must remember that FIAT is only an acronym. Fix It Again Tony!!!!!!

[UK PONY]

The Ford 3.5 dual turbo eco boost is hardly a slouch producing 335 hp from only 183 cubic inches.

 

And the Shelby GT 500 is 662 hp from only 353 cubic inches. These are factory stock engines.

 

And you must remember that FIAT is only an acronym. Fix It Again Tony!!!!!!

 

 

I always had Fiat as Fix It Again Tomorrow, Ford as Found On Road Dead, MG as Mainly Grief & Lotus as Loads Of Trouble Usually Serious. There's more like it for many other manufacturers, most are based on reputations long since proven wrong.

 

I don't recall saying North America has never produced a good engine but if people want to react like I burned their flag be my guest, this is a free world where differences of opinion are to be expected. The two engines I compared were both naturally aspirated, lets compare apples to apples shall we?

 

I highly doubt anyone on here would have an issue with Fords CEO saying they wouldn't put a foreign engine in the Mustang so as I've previously stated I fail to see the issue with another manufacturer saying they believe enough in their own product to actually use it. Apparently it's just me.

 

Just for kicks here's a list of the most powerful cars in the world, mainly European exotica - the Shelby 1000 is 33rd btw.

 

http://www.topcarrating.com/power.php

[JeffJ]

I don't think that anybody even stated once here that they wanted an american engine in an Alfa, it was just the comment from a leader of a company basically saying your product is crap. Saying the product would be crap if he put an American engine in it.

[UK PONY]

 

What about the 3.6L Pentastar engine, which is rated of the best in the world? Are you Chrysler group products muttin?

 

Obviously he hasn't heard about the great engines that Americans have been building lately. Or he doesn't want to pay for the quality. What a discriminating comment.

 

I don't think that anybody even stated once here that they wanted an american engine in an Alfa, it was just the comment from a leader of a company basically saying your product is crap. Saying the product would be crap if he put an American engine in it.

 

 

Maybe my math is wrong but I count two

 

I realize its not a very tactful comment he made but as before, if he said he wanted a Chrysler engine he's basically saying that Alfa cannot build an engine good enough for the vehicles he wants to sell.

[QuadCam]

So many generalities, so little specifics, and what does it matter..., seriously! Let Italy build their Alfa Romeo any way they want to... It's not like Alfa sales have been tearing up the market. The truth is that through Q3 of 2012, the combinded sales of all Fiats and Alfas in Europe did not break the 300K mark. Further, does anyone here think the sales of the Fiat 500 in North America are anything other than disappointing?

 

I recently purchased a 2013 Jeep GC Overland. This vehicle is all Mercedes Benz. The "Chrysler" M-Class is a scaled down G-Class and is an incredible vehicle in every way, and I chose the Pentastar V6. There is not so much of an essence of Fiat anywhere in this design, or execution. In fact, Fiat is so impressed that they are going to use this same platform to build their new Maserati SUV on it, here in America, for export to the rest of the world.

 

So let Alfa build their engine, their car, where ever they like. Frankly gentlemen, I don't give a damn, and neither should you...

[SVT NAJA]

The Ford 3.5 dual turbo eco boost is hardly a slouch producing 335 hp from only 183 cubic inches.

 

And the Shelby GT 500 is 662 hp from only 353 cubic inches. These are factory stock engines.

 

And you must remember that FIAT is only an acronym. Fix It Again Tony!!!!!!

 

 

07SGT,

 

Actually, 365 HP...

 

 

3.5 L EcoBoost V6

 

This engine first appeared in the 2007 Lincoln MKR Concept under the name TwinForce.^[29] The engine was designed to deliver power and torque output equivalent to a typical 6.0 L or larger displacement V8 while achieving at least 15% better fuel efficiency and reduced greenhouse emissions. In the MKR the concept TwinForce engine was rated 415 hp (309 kW) and 400 lb·ft (542 N·m) of torque, as well as run on E85 fuel.^[30] When the same prototype engine reappeared in the Lincoln MKT concept in 2008 North American International Auto Show, the name was changed to EcoBoost. Official EcoBoost production began on May 19, 2009 at Ford's Cleveland Engine Plant No. 1.

The production engines use the Duratec 35 V6 engine block. The fuel charging and delivery systems can attain high fuel pressures of up to 2150 PSI, necessary for efficient operation of the direct fuel injection system. It uses two Garrett GT15 turbochargers which can spin at up to 170,000 rpm and provide 12 PSI of boost. The turbos are set up in a twin-turbo configuration. The engine can consume up to 25% more air over the naturally aspirated counterpart. Through the use of direct injection, the engine needs only regular-grade gasoline to run, though premium fuel is recommended. The EcoBoost V6 was first available as an engine option for 2010 Lincoln MKS, followed by 2010 Ford Flex, 2010 Ford Taurus SHO, and 2010 Lincoln MKT.^[31] The fuel charging and delivery systems were co-developed with Robert Bosch GmbH.^[32]

In 2009 Ford modified an experimental 3.5 V6 EcoBoost engine with both E85 direct injection and gasoline indirect fuel injection, which achieved a BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) of 395 psi (27 bar), which translates to approximately 553 pound-feet (750 N·m) of torque and 316 horsepower (236 kW)@3000 rpm (flat torque curve from 1500-3000 rpm).^[33]

[edit]Applications

• 365 hp (272 kW) @5700 rpm, 350 lb·ft (475 N·m) @5000 rpm
  • 2013- Ford Explorer Sport^[34]

  [*]355 hp (265 kW) @5700 rpm, 350 lb·ft (475 N·m) @5000 rpm

   

  • 2010– Ford Flex

  • 2010– Lincoln MKS

  • 2010– Lincoln MKT

  [*]365 hp (272 kW) @5500 rpm, 350 lb·ft (475 N·m) @5000 rpm

   

  • 2010–Ford Taurus SHO

  [*]365 hp (272 kW) @5500 rpm, 420 lb·ft (569 N·m) @2500 rpm

   

  • 2011– Ford F-150^[35][36][37

   

   

 

Edited January 21, 2013 by SVT NAJA

[Secondo]

So let Alfa build their engine, their car, where ever they like. Frankly gentlemen, I don't give a damn, and neither should you...

We could care less about their stuff, it was the comment we didn't like. Congrats on your new vehicle!

[07SGT]

I stand corrected on the HP and I also made an computation error on the CID as the 3.5 is actually 214 CID not 183. But still we are getting 365 HP from 214 CID and we meet smog requirements and Alfa, and others, may not have to. And I agree that it was the comment that was concerning. And the Ford CEOs in the past have used "Foreign" engines and did not disparate their origin. As an example the original 1.6 4 cylinder was from Kent England and the 2.0 V-6 was from Cologne Germany. It is just that Europeans, in many instances, look down on Americans including in areas of engineering.

 

But I think I can resolve this issue of engineering. The Lockheed Blackbird SR-71 is almost 50 years old. It flew at the edge of space at Mach 4 (about 3,000 mph). 50 years later no country in the world has ever come near duplicating or exceeding this masterpiece. Not the Germans, certainly not the Italians, French, or British.

 

Any more comments re American engineering.

 

PS the Black Bird was so old it was retired in the 1990s. For anyone that does not know the SR-71 flew so high there was not a jet that could intercept and shoot it down. There was not a Surface to Air Missile that could shoot it down due to it's altitude and speed. And the engineering continued on to the photography, able to photograph sections of earth miles wide and over a 100 miles long. And it could look from one country into another country and photograph from the side, not just down.

 

And while we are on a roll has any country duplicated the Smart Bombs and J-Dam bombs of the US? Or built a space shuttle or put a man on the moon? American engineering should not have to hang its head in shame to any other country in the world. Actually, the world combined.

[QuadCam]

We could care less about their stuff, it was the comment we didn't like. Congrats on your new vehicle!

 

 

I understand, Sean ...and isn't it historically typical for an automotive figurehead, regardless of country of origin, to say something really stupid during their tenure at the top of the company they represent?

Carlos Ghosn of Renault/Nissan comes to mind when he dismissed the Hybrid Electric car as a "fad," and Nissan would never waste their time building such a vehicle. Hey Carlos! What's with the Leaf?

 

My way of thinking is that; "it's your loss, Sergio!"

 

Look at the Fiat Multi-Air engines found in the Dodge Dart, and the Fiat 500, they do the job, but seem overly compilcated in their engineering approach, have unproven longevity, and in the case of the Dart; notably underpowered (a 2.4L version is planned to remedy this).

Moreover, Sergio could have been simply smoothing over the fears of his countrymen. The success of Chrysler might upstage those in Italy (whose economy is right there in the toilet with Greece and Spain's). Fiat needs to assure their employees and its country, that Fiat will not abandon them in favor of the subsidary that has (lately) out engineered, out designed, and out innovated the parent.

 

My problem with this thread is the Brit who seems to think Brittish power plant engineering is superior to that of the USA. Now that is just fall on the floor with cramps from laughter... ridiculous!

...and it's not just Lucas, it's the same sloppy, disenchanted union labor assembly and execution that has damaged their reputations and those of American cars as well.

Keep in mind -

>Brits still believe that those who reside in the House of Windsor actually have differnet DNA than the rest of the human race.

>Brits continue to support a "class" system of cultural ranking based on one's lineage, over their success, wealth, or intellect.

>...And the USA will never be anything other than just "the Colonies."

 

:shades:

[UK PONY]

 

My problem with this thread is the Brit who seems to think Brittish power plant engineering is superior to that of the USA. Now that is just fall on the floor with cramps from laughter... ridiculous!

...and it's not just Lucas, it's the same sloppy, disenchanted union labor assembly and execution that has damaged their reputations and those of American cars as well.

Keep in mind -

>Brits still believe that those who reside in the House of Windsor actually have differnet DNA than the rest of the human race.

>Brits continue to support a "class" system of cultural ranking based on one's lineage, over their success, wealth, or intellect.

>...And the USA will never be anything other than just "the Colonies."

 

:shades:

 

 

Yes Lucas electrics were horrible, yes there was a lot of union disruption in the 70's but as this was the around the same time the spontaneously combustible Pinto was being built by you guys I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to draw comparisons.

 

Most Brits couldn't give a flying f*ck about the Royal Family - they're all of German descent anyway.

 

India has a much stronger leaning towards the class system - would you like to vent about them too?

 

When the Brits refer to anyone as colonials it's usually in humour.

 

Now if you really want to play national stereotypes lets go! Other than that get over yourself, everyone is entitled to their opinion & with the two engines I mentioned I'm right. You should try reading full comments, then you'd see that I said over & over how I wasn't knocking North American engineering.

[QuadCam]

Yes Lucas electrics were horrible, yes there was a lot of union disruption in the 70's but as this was the around the same time the spontaneously combustible Pinto was being built by you guys I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to draw comparisons.

 

Most Brits couldn't give a flying f*ck about the Royal Family - they're all of German descent anyway.

 

India has a much stronger leaning towards the class system - would you like to vent about them too?

 

When the Brits refer to anyone as colonials it's usually in humour.

 

Now if you really want to play national stereotypes lets go! Other than that get over yourself, everyone is entitled to their opinion & with the two engines I mentioned I'm right. You should try reading full comments, then you'd see that I said over & over how I wasn't knocking North American engineering.

 

 

Thanks for confirming I managed to find the correct "button" and understand why I pushed it. Your response is priceless!

...And since you brought up the Royals as being mostly from German descent, you might be just a tad less self-rightious toward the ally that kept the "Fruher" from being your Prime Minister...

 

Okay, You obviously don't get it... You've been "played!" Have a nice day!

[UK PONY]

 

 

Thanks for confirming I managed to find the correct "button" and understand why I pushed it. Your response is priceless!

...And since you brought up the Royals as being mostly from German descent, you might be just a tad less self-rightious toward the ally that kept the "Fruher" from being your Prime Minister...

 

Okay, You obviously don't get it... You've been "played!" Have a nice day!

 

 

Presumably the button was made by Lucas as it didn't work as intended. If that's your best play then I feel for you. Have fun little man

[QuadCam]

Presumably the button was made by Lucas as it didn't work as intended. If that's your best play then I feel for you. Have fun little man

 

 

Thanks!

[Secondo]

Rob, he's just being pissy because he bought the mustang with the non-performance workhorse engine. And then putting us down for it. But you probably knew that.

[07SGT]

Pony; don't take offense. You just reported what someone from Alfa said. And while it is not personal you can expect that we will stand up for what we know to believe. We believe America makes some of the fastest, fuel efficient, safest, and practical cars in the world, bar none. So we can debate the comments and it is not personal.

[UK PONY]

Pony; don't take offense. You just reported what someone from Alfa said. And while it is not personal you can expect that we will stand up for what we know to believe. We believe America makes some of the fastest, fuel efficient, safest, and practical cars in the world, bar none. So we can debate the comments and it is not personal.

 

 

A point well taken.

However when people start to bash my home country then it can be expected that I'll stand up for it just as I'd expect anyone to stand up for theirs. It's just the interweb after all so if they can't handle a different viewpoint without feeling the need to express unnecessary, nonsensical, anti-British statements then i feel for them.