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Torque Arm vs. UCA


Kevin Patten

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What's next Kerry - coil-overs all around ? I'm still waiting for Bruce to ship mine ( ordered on 12-20-12 ) for the 500 . I'm waiting for the coil-overs before I install the TA that I got from him.

 

 

Yes- Griggs front coils w/30 Series koni's to match the rears installed with the rear TT kit back in 2009.

I'm dropping off my SGT tomorrow, also having the MM bar installed along with my FRPP gauge set

 

I ordered my Griggs front kit about a month ago from Brads, they recieved them just last week. From what I understand the order was being held because they were waiting on lower control arm bushings from a suppler, but I had purchased Steeda complete OEM type arms w/delron bushing and HD ball joints to have thrown on while the front was apart.

So Griggs shipped my kit without the bushings and will be issueing me a credit,..

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Great . Not to get off topic but I just got an e-mail notice that mine have been shipped . Sounds like you will be all set for this years Bash . Unfortunately the first SFR SCCA race is on the same date so I'm going to miss the Bash this year ( not happy ). While you are there at Brad's place ask him what he thinks about the upper mounts on the front coil-overs as far as the articulation( I'm going to do a modification to alleviate what I feel is a binding issue ) . I'm changing out the rear bushing for the Whiteline on my arms , leaving the Prothane in the front , and also have the Steeda X5 ball joints with the FRPP M-3130-R3 (FR500C) outer tie rod ends for the street ( on the 500 ) and a Shelby bumpsteer kit for the SGT (track car).

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Nice video and good thread to read - Did you notice the mentioning of how important the free movement at the front pivot is? As I mentioned earlier Griggs uses the Ford upper diff bushing while Cortex uses a slide method with a poly bushing . For early cars TCP makes the TA with the heim based "dog bone ". Now are you starting to pick up that there is more than a leverage issue being addressed by using a TA ? GOOD FIND Mr Haney. Word for today " Instant Center "

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Nice video and good thread to read - Did you notice the mentioning of how important the free movement at the front pivot is? As I mentioned earlier Griggs uses the Ford upper diff bushing while Cortex uses a slide method with a poly bushing . For early cars TCP makes the TA with the heim based "dog bone ". Now are you starting to pick up that there is more than a leverage issue being addressed by using a TA ? GOOD FIND Mr Haney. Word for today " Instant Center "

 

Yes and I do believe that a TA will be in my future. After researching the TA advantages, I wondered about Griggs method on the front of it. I need to look at Cortex's method for the front mount a little closer. Looking at the photos Cortex has on their website, I actually think it is a bearing in the front mount that will allow articulation left to right rotation of the axle, while also allowing the arm to slide forward and backwards as the suspension travels along the arch of the LCA. A bushing in the forward position would create binding as the axle rotates side to side, while also traveling through the arch of the LCA during suspension compression and rebound. Have you seen a Cortex TA in person to tell what he's using?

 

Instant Center............yes that is what we are trying to optimize for no squat, but not raise high enough to cause brake hop. The Chevelle I modified had a serious case of brake hop. Until I read about Instant Center and what can happen when it raising it above 100% for better traction under acceleration, I never realized this was causing the hop I was encountering. Took 30+ years to understand that one LOL

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IC - young grasshopper that you are learning the ways of the TA. It's never too late to learn . From what I have seen on the Cortex unit is that it has a poly bushing in the front with a round bar as part of the TA linkage - so this would indicate NO binding during articulation BUT binding will occur during the up/down travel ( Even though the link can slide forward/back ) . Tomorrow's word for the day is ; Roll Centers ( discuss I/C vs. R/C ). :stirpot: :huh: :fear:

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Tomorrow's word for the day is ; Roll Centers ( discuss I/C vs. R/C ). :stirpot: :huh: :fear:

 

 

COOL. Although I've worked quite a bit with panhard bar adjustments (we raced Quarter Midgets, Modified/Micro Midgets, Stadium Superlights (MTGP), NASCAR/IMCA Grand-Ams, Featherlite Southwest Tour, etc etc. etc. all had panhard bars) I have never understood Roll Center. I mean, I know what to to to add or take heat out of my right rear tire (we raced ovals) by raising or lowering the panhard bar but I don't know WHY it adds/subtracts heat. And I've read about it, I just don't learn well from reading (typical tactile learner that mechanics are).

 

Looking forward to the dialogue.

 

 

Phill

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Here is a simple way to explain Roll Center. The movie proceeds along faster than you can read, but I used the pause button to try to get a much better understanding of Roll Center. After watching this I now see how tire diameter enters into this also. This site also deals with other suspension setting that can be tuned for better handling

 

http://www.racecartuner.com/03/304.html

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I suppose you will want pictures Phill :reading: Mr. Haney will you provide pictures for the class/viewers ?

 

 

Diagrams would be nice. I said "tactile" (meaning TOUCH) but should have said visual (meaning SEE).

 

I can see it once and know the subject. Give me a book and I'll have to read it 10 times just to get the basic/fundamental understanding of a principal.

 

I'll check out the vid when I get a few moments.

 

 

TIA,

Phill

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From what I have seen on the Cortex unit is that it has a poly bushing in the front with a round bar as part of the TA linkage - so this would indicate NO binding during articulation BUT binding will occur during the up/down travel ( Even though the link can slide forward/back ) . Tomorrow's word for the day is ; Roll Centers ( discuss I/C vs. R/C ). :stirpot: :huh: :fear:

 

Roll Center has to deal with the front and rear suspension separately and is what the car wants to rotate around from left to right. I/C deals with the geometry of the front/rear suspensions separately. Both the front and rear suspensions have different I/Cs and each can be tuned for more/less lift/dive.

 

I talked to Filip at CorteX about the front TA mount, it is a grease-able spherical bearing, but also allows the arm to float forward or back as the LCAs move through their arch. He told me he is working on a different mount that will utilize a similar Delrin bearing in the near future. No binding with his design

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Yes there is a front axle roll center and there is a rear axle roll center and the line that is drawn between the two is called the roll axis . The relationship between the stiffness of the front to the stiffness of the rear is referred to as "Roll Couple". Momentary bind / roll bind causes excessive "stiffness" which causes the tires to be overloaded and lose grip . This is what happens with the UCA vs LCA and why you want to go to a torque arm ( which makes it virtually impossible ) ALSO when going over to a torque arm , the rear roll center is now determined predominately by the panhard bar / watts link . While lowering the car helps with the Center of Gravity (GC) it does not address the issues of the roll couple and roll axis. While it does lower both it does not fix the problem - in fact it can cause a worse condition by burying the front R/C and not lowering the rear enough which in turn makes the rear end "snap" out from underneath you while exiting a corner ( or breaks loose on launch ). This is how extended ball joints and bumpsteer kits made their way into the marketplace ( to raise up the front roll center ) and watts linkage setups that give you a lower pivot point than panhard bars .

Ideally we want the front R/C to be 1-3" above the ground and the rear R/C to be between 8-12" above the ground. JMO

If Cortex's T/A has a spherical bearing / slider instead of the poly bushing - the " LIGHT is GREEN - the trap is CLEAN "

I/C brings in the tire's contact patch and it's relationship to the next equation - have you got your chalk outline drawn on your garage floor yet ?

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Here is a simple way to explain Roll Center. The movie proceeds along faster than you can read, but I used the pause button to try to get a much better understanding of Roll Center. After watching this I now see how tire diameter enters into this also. This site also deals with other suspension setting that can be tuned for better handling

 

http://www.racecartu...com/03/304.html

 

Do not care for this much - check this one out and see if you can relate "miracerros.com/mustang/t_roll center
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I know that it references to the SN95 but the principles are the same for the S197 and it is simple for people to understand . Hope that this is helpful . The reason for the difference in roll centers is to get your setup to have a slight understeer in which you can throttle induce the oversteer in order to rotate the car out of a corner with out giving up too much grip . This is done by setting up the suspension to handle the change in load transfer in a manner that doesn't overload the tire's capabilities or have too much roll ( pitch / yaw )and can not catch/handle the load properly. It can not be done with just springs and swaybars. JMO

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  • 1 month later...

IC - young grasshopper that you are learning the ways of the TA. It's never too late to learn . From what I have seen on the Cortex unit is that it has a poly bushing in the front with a round bar as part of the TA linkage - so this would indicate NO binding during articulation BUT binding will occur during the up/down travel ( Even though the link can slide forward/back ) . Tomorrow's word for the day is ; Roll Centers ( discuss I/C vs. R/C ). :stirpot: :huh: :fear:

 

 

Hello everybody. I am a Newbie and I don't have a Shelby, but I consider this site one of the great resources for mustang owners. Many very knowledgeable members here. Let me start by making a minor contribution to this discussion. I installed the Cortex Torque Arm with a set of adjustable Cortex Control Arms and Cortex Watts link. This and the Torsen are the best handling modifications I have ever put on any car ever. Anyone who argues that a UCA is as good as this is smoking something. The jarring up and down motion of the rear end has been comletely eliminated. The rear end is completely settled. Grip coming out of corners is amazing. NO noise at all. No increase in NVH. Ride quality has improved. Can't say enough about the quality of Cortex Parts. Really great stuff.

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Hello everybody. I am a Newbie and I don't have a Shelby, but I consider this site one of the great resources for mustang owners. Many very knowledgeable members here. Let me start by making a minor contribution to this discussion. I installed the Cortex Torque Arm with a set of adjustable Cortex Control Arms and Cortex Watts link. This and the Torsen are the best handling modifications I have ever put on any car ever. Anyone who argues that a UCA is as good as this is smoking something. The jarring up and down motion of the rear end has been comletely eliminated. The rear end is completely settled. Grip coming out of corners is amazing. NO noise at all. No increase in NVH. Ride quality has improved. Can't say enough about the quality of Cortex Parts. Really great stuff.

 

 

I know I like you already.... its SO hard to find others who have direct knowledge of a T/A and understand its benefits. I'll be getting the same upgrades here shortly. I would never tell someone else what to do to their car, but I always get funny looks when we start discussing this topic. Gratz on the upgrades... now get out there and use them!!

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Thank you for the kind words. Here are some more pictures of the adjustable heim jointed on one end lower control arms. This adds to the articulation of the axle and improves ride quality further with minimum to no increase in NVH. As for the track. I will be going back to wilow springs hopefully April 24th for a new test session. I am anxious to get out there because as good as my baby was last time. This time is going to be a whole new world.

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Anything to the front.... SLA?

 

Cortex is working on one for the s197 but it's not ready yet. I know Agent 47 and Griggs have some out but I am a little leery as I have not personally seen them on my model years (11-13) Don't want to deal with Griggs as they are a pain and agent 47 is an unknown to me other than some side view mirrors I bought from them that did not work. I'll just rely on my caster camber plates for now.
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Welcome to the party Barbaro and to TEAM SHELBY - Thanks for sharing and from what I see - NICE RIDE and MODS . Side question any sway bar changes - the reason that I ask is because ALL of the 2011 and newer stangs/Shelbys that I've worked on so far - the frame bushings were bonded to the bar and make it act like a torsion bar instead of an anti-sway bar ( just asking ). For those interested - check out Prestolite Performance ( Lakewood Industries Evolution Suspension System ) and look at what they have come out with sway bar wise. Sorry -back to topic - Torque Arms - Ohh yeah The Lakewood Evolution Suspension System includes their TORQUE ARM and watts linkage along with coil over shocks - which got premiered at SEMA this last Nov. but won't be released until mid year 2013 .

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  • 7 months later...

Cortex is working on one for the s197 but it's not ready yet. I know Agent 47 and Griggs have some out but I am a little leery as I have not personally seen them on my model years (11-13) Don't want to deal with Griggs as they are a pain and agent 47 is an unknown to me other than some side view mirrors I bought from them that did not work. I'll just rely on my caster camber plates for now.

Why is Griggs a pain? I just received their GR40SS kit. It arrived perfect and Bruce has answered all of my questions promptly. I couldn't have asked for better service.

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^^ Maybe some better installation instructions and labeling of all the bags of bolts, spacers, brackets and such. Just a suggestion and I am not a novice. When you have several dozen spacers/bolts etc, it would make it much easier to organize the install.

 

They have a great product and I agree, Bruce is easy to work with.

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^^ Maybe some better installation instructions and labeling of all the bags of bolts, spacers, brackets and such. Just a suggestion and I am not a novice. When you have several dozen spacers/bolts etc, it would make it much easier to organize the install.

 

They have a great product and I agree, Bruce is easy to work with.

I agree with that! I think my eyes are going to be crossed for at least the next few weeks from studying where all the hardware goes in all of those pics. I still have 4 small bushings that I don't see where they could go. My bags were labeled at least with what component they were for.

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