Watts Link

[Madlock]

 

 

Is it possible to install a zerk fitting to aid in lubing the bushing?

 

 

That always possible. But it's so accessible that frankly it's probably not even necessary.

[Kevin Patten]

Let's see - Whiteline Watts - $899 - Fays2 Watts - $650 , WL watts - 2 position roll center adjustment settings - Fays2 watts -7 position (only 3 if you buy from SPP) , axle articulation point&load point - WL - opposing single shear w/poly bushing , propeller w/single shear link to lateral links - Fays2 - double ball bearing single shear w/double shear link to lateral links , WL uses poly bushings on both ends of lateral links - Fays2 - spherical bearings w/o-ring dirt seals . Unsprung weight vs. sprung weight - well a chassis mounted unit will win over an axle mount everytime even IF the lateral links were both of the same material (which they are NOT in this case). As far as NVH most of the time the difference is in the quality of the installation making sure the parts /assembly is done correctly and knowing what to check. Looking pretty one sided but in the end it's what works for you that counts - was it money well spent ?

[Madlock]

Let's see - Whiteline Watts - $899 - Fays2 Watts - $650 , WL watts - 2 position roll center adjustment settings - Fays2 watts -7 position (only 3 if you buy from SPP) , axle articulation point&load point - WL - opposing single shear w/poly bushing , propeller w/single shear link to lateral links - Fays2 - double ball bearing single shear w/double shear link to lateral links , WL uses poly bushings on both ends of lateral links - Fays2 - spherical bearings w/o-ring dirt seals . Unsprung weight vs. sprung weight - well a chassis mounted unit will win over an axle mount everytime even IF the lateral links were both of the same material (which they are NOT in this case). As far as NVH most of the time the difference is in the quality of the installation making sure the parts /assembly is done correctly and knowing what to check. Looking pretty one sided but in the end it's what works for you that counts - was it money well spent ?

 

 

So far. Every bit as one-sided in favor of Whiteline as I expected.

[Kevin Patten]

So far. Every bit as one-sided in favor of Whiteline as I expected.

 

Might want to consult your tech on that one and recheck your comments on your post #41 . :glare:

[patrickshelby]

Good enough for this car = good enough for mine.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-Events/Global-Time-Attack-TMS-092112/25502108_Mt6CqK#!i=2130840349&k=WMKC8D5&lb=1&s=A

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?p=57441#post57441

They are not weekend racers, they do a bunch of events and have had the WL watts linkage on their racer since it's introduction.

[patrickshelby]

You're also going to find, if you have the Track Package, not only will you need to bore a larger cooling inlet port, but you'll ALSO need to have machined a temperature sensor port which Whiteline ignored completely.

 

Whiteline is supposedly expressing what I hope to be a complete and correct hardware kit, but the other suboptimal properties for Track Package '13s are simply the way things are and will continue to be. Anybody whose car is so-equipped should go into this with open eyes - knowing there's going to be some additional work to make the kit compatible.

 

My car is 2012 despite the 13 spoiler you see on the picture.

I understand your concern though.

[Madlock]

So, here's an interim progress report on the suspension upgrade. The project includes FR-3 "L" Springs and "B" Sway Bar Kit, Shelby Caster Camber Plates, Shelby Adjustable Upper Control Arm, Billet Lower Control Arms and Relocation Brackets and Whiteline Watts Link on a '13 Coupe with Performance and Track Packages.

 

The FR-3 Springs and Shelby Caster Camber Plate installation is standard fare. Nothing unique or special to report. The same can be said of the Adjustable UCA, LCA and Relocation Brackets which I had powder coated.

 

L Springs Mounted

 

 

FR-3 Sway Bar end mount

 

 

Shelby Adjustable UCA

 

 

Shelby Billet LCA and Relocation Brackets

 

 

 

Here's what's become the object of many peoples' fascination, the Whiteline Watts Link differential cover and propeller pivot mount. I powder coated the differential cover which "weapons grade" doesn't even begin to fully describe.

 

 

Incredibly strong? Yes. Beautifully made? Almost. Several of the milled threads required cleaning-up for the supplied bolts to fasten properly. A couple of modifications were also necessary to accommodate the 2013 GT500 and Track Package, namely re-boring a larger diameter cooling inlet to match Ford's OE fitting. Whiteline claims the product was developed before the 2013 cars came to market and information about its differential cooling system was available. The second important modification required machining an all-new inlet for the differential temperature sensor (below).

 

 

The final accommodation was relocating a vent Ford incorporates into the OE differential cover to a more convenient location on the axle since the Whiteline cover didn't offer one.

 

 

It's also important to note the OE differential cover includes attachment points for plastic fasteners attached to the temperature sensor harness. Rather than drilling into a freshly powder coated differential cover, the harness was simply zip-tied to the differential cooling return line.

 

The next step was to mount the cover and propeller stantion to the differential. The FR-3 Pack's additional lowering warranted use of the upper stantion mount position. Higher-riding stock suspensions would likely use the upper stantion mount position.

 

 

The propeller bushing simply slides over the pivot and each of the Watts Link's control arms extend horizontally to the right panhard bar mount and a Whiteline-supplied bracket on the left that provides the correct geometry. Whiteline also provides a crossmember that replaces the Panhard Bar reinforcement bracket that spans the chassis and ties together both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

From this point, the next step is to secure the linkage arms to the propeller and propeller to its pivot with Whiteline-supplied washers and bolts. (Note: These were among a handful of incorrect pieces of hardware I received with the kit which, according to Whiteline, resulted from early QC discrepancies and will be remedied by FedEx tomorrow morning. Frustrating, but not fatal.)

 

 

 

With everything properly fitted, greased, and thread locked (absent the missing hardware), the next step was situating the Ford Racing 5490-B Sway Bar to complete the FR-3 Handling Pack component installation.

 

 

 

 

The final steps after installing the couple of missing hardware pieces will be to center the axle, set the proper pinion angle, tighten-up the jam nuts and perform a complete alignment before taking the car for its first test drive. Other components not pictured are the FR-3 Front Stabilizer Bar with Shelby Adjustable Sway Bar Links, and the Shelby Transmission Cooling Duct.

 

Given the scope of the installation and the installer's fastidiousness, about ten man hours of labor have been invested so far with another two to four anticipated before the car is back on the road, everything has been fully tested, and the car is put back on the lift to recheck all connection points and fasteners. Further information to follow as progress warrants.

 

Addendum: All of the crappy half-assed looking stuff is original factory equipment, from which these components were among the many that were mercifully liberated. (OE differential cover and rear sway bar not pictured)

 

[patrickshelby]

Patrick - if you could...please post a few shots of the bellcrank/propeller. I'm itching to see each component and how they fit together. If I'm seeing things right, WL doesn't use a bearing at the pivot but rather one of their bushings with an inner and outer sleeve. Much different philosophy, for example, then Jim Fay's double bearing inside his prop.

Anyhow, if you could post up photos of those components it would be greatly appreciated.

Tob

On edit...if you have a ruler...what is the center to center distance between the links at the prop? I'd guess around 5 to 6 inches...

 

Here you go Tob,

No bearings & no heim in the WL system (that is also why I chose it).

The pivot shafts are welded and the plates are thick.

The main pivot has a bolt which bolts through the flat plate into the rear end cover.

The distance you're looking for is 4 inches.

Patrick

Note: So far, I've had a Techco, a Fay's, a Griggs...

All good (especially the Fays and the Griggs) but this one (I hope) will fit my needs.

The Techco has some evident design weaknesses (When I got it, I did not install it finally).

The Fays, TO ME, is a bit of a mess under the car...like the Steeda (huge brackets all over).

The Griggs, TO ME, is a track only device (noisy).

The WL seems to be a good compromise for MY USE.

[svt13]

Madlock I think you should take side by side pictures of the sway bars for people to see the difference. Especially since that topic is always largely debated.

[patrickshelby]

So, here's an interim progress report on the suspension upgrade. The project includes FR-3 "L" Springs and "B" Sway Bar Kit, Shelby Caster Camber Plates, Shelby Adjustable Upper Control Arm, Billet Lower Control Arms and Relocation Brackets and Whiteline Watts Link on a '13 Coupe with Performance and Track Packages.

The FR-3 Springs and Shelby Caster Camber Plate installation is standard fare. Nothing unique or special to report. The same can be said of the Adjustable UCA, LCA and Relocation Brackets which I had powder coated.

L Springs Mounted

FR-3 Sway Bar end mount

Shelby Adjustable UCA

Shelby Billet LCA and Relocation Brackets

Here's what's become the object of many peoples' fascination, the Whiteline Watts Link differential cover and propeller pivot mount. I powder coated the differential cover which "weapons grade" doesn't even begin to fully describe.

Incredibly strong? Yes. Beautifully made? Almost. Several of the milled threads required cleaning-up for the supplied bolts to fasten properly. A couple of modifications were also necessary to accommodate the 2013 GT500 and Track Package, namely re-boring a larger diameter cooling inlet to match Ford's OE fitting. Whiteline claims the product was developed before the 2013 cars came to market and information about its differential cooling system was available. The second important modification required machining an all-new inlet for the differential temperature sensor (below).

The final accommodation was relocating a vent Ford incorporates into the OE differential cover to a more convenient location on the axle since the Whiteline cover didn't offer one.

It's also important to note the OE differential cover includes attachment points for plastic fasteners attached to the temperature sensor harness. Rather than drilling into a freshly powder coated differential cover, the harness was simply zip-tied to the differential cooling return line.

The next step was to mount the cover and propeller stantion to the differential. The FR-3 Pack's additional lowering warranted use of the upper stantion mount position. Higher-riding stock suspensions would likely use the upper stantion mount position.

The propeller bushing simply slides over the pivot and each of the Watts Link's control arms extend horizontally to the right panhard bar mount and a Whiteline-supplied bracket on the left that provides the correct geometry. Whiteline also provides a crossmember that replaces the Panhard Bar reinforcement bracket that spans the chassis and ties together both sides.

From this point, the next step is to secure the linkage arms to the propeller and propeller to its pivot with Whiteline-supplied washers and bolts. (Note: These were among a handful of incorrect pieces of hardware I received with the kit which, according to Whiteline, resulted from early QC discrepancies and will be remedied by FedEx tomorrow morning. Frustrating, but not fatal.)

With everything properly fitted, greased, and thread locked (absent the missing hardware), the next step was situating the Ford Racing 5490-B Sway Bar to complete the FR-3 Handling Pack component installation.

The final steps after installing the couple of missing hardware pieces will be to center the axle, set the proper pinion angle, tighten-up the jam nuts and perform a complete alignment before taking the car for its first test drive. Other components not pictured are the FR-3 Front Stabilizer Bar with Shelby Adjustable Sway Bar Links, and the Shelby Transmission Cooling Duct.

Given the scope of the installation and the installer's fastidiousness, about ten man hours of labor have been invested so far with another two to four anticipated before the car is back on the road, everything has been fully tested, and the car is put back on the lift to recheck all connection points and fasteners. Further information to follow as progress warrants.

Addendum: All of the crappy half-assed looking stuff is original factory equipment, from which these components were among the many that were mercifully liberated. (OE differential cover and rear sway bar not pictured)

 

Great report and pics Madlock

Thank you!

Tell us how it drives after you test it.

Tell us about HVH also...

[Madlock]

Great report and pics Madlock

Thank you!

Tell us how it drives after you test it.

Tell us about HVH also...

 

 

Thanks Patrick. Will do. NVH was a huge consideration for me. I intend to use this car on the track AND as an open-road tourer. Handling as aggressively as possible without introducing undue clanks and clunks was a primary goal. Who needs an IRS?

 

I'm really looking forward to the work being complete. My tech is phenomenal - the kind of guy who likes to ensure even each bolt head is identically oriented. As eager as I may be to drive the product of the research I've done, I'd hate to discourage a guy from being so thorough after being lucky enough to cross paths to begin with even more.

 

Hope to have her back by the weekend with an update to follow.

[Madlock]

Might want to consult your tech on that one and recheck your comments on your post #41 . :glare:

 

Why, when it was while standing next to my tech with both Fays units and the Whiteline laid out on a table before us that he unresevedly chose Whiteline as what he’d recommend to others and buy for himself? Would I weld and grind to use a Fays unit on this car? No. Would I relocate a vent to use the Whiteline? I did.

 

Rationalize all you like. NVH is inherent to spherical ends no matter how expertly they’re installed. It’s why they’re most common with track-oriented components and there’s otherwise so much focus on making bushings work. They invariably include NVH disclaimers because of the amount of resonance spherical ends transmit which is usually even more bothersome than their occasional metal-on-metal clunk - unless makers just expect most to be installed sloppily.

 

Trying telling the average owner there’s nothing to fix because it’s SUPPOSED to sound that way. Besides, without also using spherical ends throughout the entire suspension, worrying about one of the least likely-to-bind parts makes little sense. Hell. If cost is all-important, this discussion should be taking place in the baseline GT forum anyway.

 

Having bought the Fays units long before considering Whiteline, I had the benefit of actually comparing the components side-by-side. What I DIDN’T do was approach the proposition with any particular bias except preferring to remain Shelby or Ford Racing exclusive. My choice speaks for itself.

[Kevin Patten]

Why, when it was while standing next to my tech with both Fays units and the Whiteline laid out on a table before us that he unresevedly chose Whiteline as what he’d recommend to others and buy for himself? Would I weld and grind to use a Fays unit on this car? No. Would I relocate a vent to use the Whiteline? I did.

 

Rationalize all you like. NVH is inherent to spherical ends no matter how expertly they’re installed. It’s why they’re most common with track-oriented components and there’s otherwise so much focus on making bushings work. They invariably include NVH disclaimers because of the amount of resonance spherical ends transmit which is usually even more bothersome than their occasional metal-on-metal clunk - unless makers just expect most to be installed sloppily.

 

Trying telling the average owner there’s nothing to fix because it’s SUPPOSED to sound that way. Besides, without also using spherical ends throughout the entire suspension, worrying about one of the least likely-to-bind parts makes little sense. Hell. If cost is all-important, this discussion should be taking place in the baseline GT forum anyway.

 

Having bought the Fays units long before considering Whiteline, I had the benefit of actually comparing the components side-by-side. What I DIDN’T do was approach the proposition with any particular bias except preferring to remain Shelby or Ford Racing exclusive. My choice speaks for itself.

 

I'm not putting the "Hateraid" on the Whiteline here just making observations ! Yes I do understand that there are some who want to stay away from spherical end models due to the maintenance issues related to " race parts " and people using the excuse that " It's suppose to sound that way " when using low grade sloppy heims . I will say that I like that WL has put a crosshatch pattern on their bushings to help retain the grease better than others who just cut in channeling grooves end to end . You have mentioned that mods had to be made to address the install onto a vehicle w/SVTPP package and had hardware issues (which is no biggie - it happens). One thing that I will point out is that the support cross brace on the driver's side does not look too well anchored to the frame support tower and on the passenger side has a single bolt attachment which is very familiar to what Saleen had problems with initially and later on had to recall for an upgrade on their watts linkage set up (it used rubber bushings , had a single position roll center pivot , was diff cover mounted , and costs $1100 but came with a rear sway bar). Barring the "attitude" towards base line mustang GT amongst other things. Still waiting for yours and Patricks evaluations of what you 2 feel about the ride quality and handling along with the NVH issue ( I understand that yours will include one based upon more than the watts because you did not just install only a WL watts but other upgrades at the same time ) Meanwhile I will stay with my cheap , no noise , no issues ,Fays2 on my GT500 and try to help people who want a non-spherical ended find one at a price that they are willing to pay.

[Tob]

Yes I do understand that there are some who want to stay away from spherical end models due to the maintenance issues related to " race parts " and people using the excuse that " It's suppose to sound that way " when using low grade sloppy heims ....... One thing that I will point out is that the support cross brace on the driver's side does not look too well anchored to the frame support tower and on the passenger side has a single bolt attachment which is very familiar to what Saleen had problems with initially and later on had to recall for an upgrade on their watts linkage set up (it used rubber bushings , had a single position roll center pivot , was diff cover mounted , and costs $1100 but came with a rear sway bar).

 

Albino, you and I share the same page. I'm constantly defending the use of a quality rod end (three piece, Teflon liner, etc) versus what many companies use (low grade, two piece, no liner, etc) and the difference therein. Nice to see I'm not alone.

 

In addition, one of my concerns with the Whiteline Watts kit was the tower bracket on the driver side - same as you. I had to search for every available photo online as well as scour through their installation instructions. If this was indeed a bolt-on only kit, I wondered how the bracket was to be anchored. Finally, Madlock has supplied the clearest photo to date. I've edited it to illustrate why I'm not a fan (in bolt-on form anyway)

 

 

Were it to be welded at the top left, a bead(s) placed along the edge of the bracket perimeter to the floorpan, I'd be much more comfortable. Without a weld, the constant compression/tension will work the closest fastener to the load path centerline. Throughout the dynamic range I suspect there will be a measurable amount of deflection at the tower base on the left side. I'd like to hear Whiteline comment on how they specifically ensured that this is not the case. Were it me, I'd be welding at that location (in addition to the LCA anti-squat brackets that I see no weld on either). Madlock, I understand your previous comments regarding any welding done to your car.

 

To compare, note the bracket that Griggs uses and the fully welded base. The factory bolts are used to locate the bracket prior to welding.

 

 

 

Notice also how Griggs uses the brace placement to directly transfer the loads imparted by the driver side arm (from the prop/axle) and transfers them directly to the tower bracket and back to the body bracket on the passenger side.

 

 

If you look back to the photos of the Whiteline brace, it attaches up a few inches on the tower, acting as a pivot/fulcrum between the load path and the body attachment bolts. Even Cortex (similar to Griggs) runs their brace directly to the base of the tower to capture the load. Note that they also weld their tower about its base to the Mustang chassis...

 

 

Pure observation, Madlock. No hate. I look forward to see how it works for you.

 

So far, I've had a Techco, a Fay's, a Griggs...

 

The Griggs, TO ME, is a track only device (noisy).

 

 

Patrick - thanks for the photos. You provided more information and data on this unit that I had yet to see.

 

Can you comment on which Griggs Watts kit you had (quiet or noisy as Griggs puts it)? Was noise the only reason why you removed it? Finally, how long did you run it?

[Madlock]

Pure observation, Madlock. No hate. I look forward to see how it works for you.

 

 

 

"Hate"? Just how fixated upon such things do some people become? This isn't important enough to move the hate needle, let enough all the way into the caring zone. Good grief. This isn't a car that's going to be tracked exclusively and I'd be rebuilding the whole back end from the ground-up if it were. Nor will it be dragged. No commercially viable mass market product could provide all the guarantees you seem to want, NONE of which would be "bolt on" solutions if they did to begin with. There's absolutely nothing within its intended scope of use that seems deficient and nothing that can't be overcome if, upon performing the kind of preventive and safety maintenance ANYBODY who even occasionally takes a car on a track should do, any evidence of failure becomes apparent.

 

If the base of the tower mount isn't sufficiently robust, I'll consider welding it. If there's excessive deflection, I'll reinforce it. If the pivot bushing can't handle what's expected of it, I'll incorporate a bearing. What I'm not going to do is let perfection be the enemy of the good or fret myself into paralysis to such an extent that the car winds-up never being driven. Nor am I going to waste countless hours fearing the theoretical rather than gaining experience by applying the practical, especially over something that's number 63 on the list of things that ought to be re-engineered against even-likelier failure or negative characteristics first, which would replace the entire live axle with an IRS to begin with.

 

To that end, I'm perfectly comfortable with the strength and triangular stability the cross brace provides which, like the other components, is remarkably robust. Since I don't have first-hand access to White Line or any OTHER maker's metallurgy or physics data, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in lieu of ANY maker's absolute guarantee against failure which none provides. Even Ford doesn't guarantee the car won't fail. It'll repair or replace certain parts if they do - and even then only up to a point. Besides, I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't rather have the tower fail rather than being so robust it tears apart anything far MORE critical at the wrong moment, especially since I'd have even LESS of an idea what that particular component is likeliest to be.

 

So, I'll leave the great Watt's linkage jihad in others' capable hands. I'll be out enjoying my car on the road and track fully expecting to having improved its handling properties without having also added any negative properties I intend to avoid and adapting if and when circumstances mandate. In the meantime, I wouldn't be surprised if a person couldn't apply the same bandwidth consumed debating the issue without ever turning an axle toward obtaining the kind of advanced engineering degree, rounding-up investors, designing, testing and manufacturing the mother of all links with no negative attributes, zero possibility of failure and weighing less than two kilos - for a buck and change.

 

I wish them all the luck and happiness in the world. I'll be driving.

[Tob]

Lighten up Francis and put away the meds. This isn't about fixation but a better understanding of both design and intent.

 

There's absolutely nothing within its intended scope of use that seems deficient and nothing that can't be overcome

I pointed out a deficiency. Don't take it personal.

 

If the base of the tower mount isn't sufficiently robust, I'll consider welding it.

 

Well, not long ago you stated the following...

 

Welding and grinding is a threshold I'd prefer to leave uncrossed. Except on a car I ran predominately on the track, I'm not sure I'd like to install anything I knew would make me wish I hadn't at some point. I'd probably just replaceme the entire axle assembly which is available dirt cheap while also providing the option to have two very different cars, with different final drive gearing and different differentials biased toward the occasion. I love how modular these cars can be.

 

But back to the broader topic...

 

I made the point that anything welded can be removed and you'd never know it was there to which you responded with the above quote. Since your sensitivity levels sometimes run amok I qualified the observations in my previous post that there was no hate intended. But 'back to the broader topic' as you put it.

 

If there's excessive deflection, I'll reinforce it. If the pivot bushing can't handle what's expected of it, I'll incorporate a bearing.

 

That's the attitude to have especially with a newly released product.

 

Nor am I going to waste countless hours fearing the theoretical rather than gaining experience by applying the practical, especially over something that's number 63 on the list of things that ought to be re-engineered against even-likelier failure

 

Aside from the bushings, I'd have put the tower retention system WL uses (pure bolt-on in this case) at number two. What are the other 61?

 

I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't rather have the tower fail rather than being so robust it tears apart anything far MORE critical at the wrong moment, especially since I'd have even LESS of an idea what that particular component is likeliest to be.

 

You missed the point. It isn't about the tower FAILING. As much as any flex at the tower to sheetmetal junction wouldn't be 'optimal' it is more about accuracy in feedback. The anchor point for a dynamically performing link(s) such as those in a Watts should remain as fixed as possible. The tower in the Whiteline kit appears to be VERY ROBUST, much more so than either Griggs or Cortex.

 

Again, I look forward to seeing how it works for you.

[patrickshelby]

Albino, you and I share the same page. I'm constantly defending the use of a quality rod end (three piece, Teflon liner, etc) versus what many companies use (low grade, two piece, no liner, etc) and the difference therein. Nice to see I'm not alone.

 

In addition, one of my concerns with the Whiteline Watts kit was the tower bracket on the driver side - same as you. I had to search for every available photo online as well as scour through their installation instructions. If this was indeed a bolt-on only kit, I wondered how the bracket was to be anchored. Finally, Madlock has supplied the clearest photo to date. I've edited it to illustrate why I'm not a fan (in bolt-on form anyway)

 

 

Were it to be welded at the top left, a bead(s) placed along the edge of the bracket perimeter to the floorpan, I'd be much more comfortable. Without a weld, the constant compression/tension will work the closest fastener to the load path centerline. Throughout the dynamic range I suspect there will be a measurable amount of deflection at the tower base on the left side. I'd like to hear Whiteline comment on how they specifically ensured that this is not the case. Were it me, I'd be welding at that location (in addition to the LCA anti-squat brackets that I see no weld on either). Madlock, I understand your previous comments regarding any welding done to your car.

 

To compare, note the bracket that Griggs uses and the fully welded base. The factory bolts are used to locate the bracket prior to welding.

 

 

 

Notice also how Griggs uses the brace placement to directly transfer the loads imparted by the driver side arm (from the prop/axle) and transfers them directly to the tower bracket and back to the body bracket on the passenger side.

 

 

If you look back to the photos of the Whiteline brace, it attaches up a few inches on the tower, acting as a pivot/fulcrum between the load path and the body attachment bolts. Even Cortex (similar to Griggs) runs their brace directly to the base of the tower to capture the load. Note that they also weld their tower about its base to the Mustang chassis...

 

 

Pure observation, Madlock. No hate. I look forward to see how it works for you.

Patrick - thanks for the photos. You provided more information and data on this unit that I had yet to see.

Can you comment on which Griggs Watts kit you had (quiet or noisy as Griggs puts it)? Was noise the only reason why you removed it? Finally, how long did you run it?

 

To my knowledge there is only one Griggs watts. The one you picture here. But I do not know all obviously :-)

Two weeks. Yes it was the noise and the fact I wanted to sell the 2007 GT500 (no noise and no bracket welded allowed for a new owner!).

The Griggs is the best (I did not buy the SHELBY CORTEX available now, but it looks even better!) but they're just not right for my street application... because of the weld and the heims.

The WL seems to be the most appropriate for the street guy.

I agree it's not 100% perfect.

I agree that the transverse bar should meet the lower link attaching point. I thought about it but...I doubt that the bracket will move much although not welded...A thick plate underneath the two bolts attached to the frame rails would be a good easy and inexpensive idea...for those who are worried...

BUT:To be fair, besides all technical analysis and considerations: Ask yourself why VORSCHLAG runs the WL without trouble....and look at their rear meats! Look at the action their car is going through! Side load there IS with those guys!

[Tob]

 

I believe one uses at least some poly while the other is full heim. Not 100% sure.

 

Regarding Vorschlag...I've followed Terry's exploits regularly and since he first started modifying his (then) newly acquired GT. If anyone can test a system he can! To be fair, I believe the predominant use he puts his cars through is auto cross as well as street driving. He commented early about looking into rod ends but hasn't acted on them as far as I know. As far as the design, I've yet to see any negative comments from him either. To be fair, he's also a vendor for WL product line. So while I trust his reviews he also isn't going to shoot himself in the foot. I'll contact him regarding a few things and see what he has to say.

 

Tob

[patrickshelby]

Yes Tob, you are right, the tower of the WL is made of a more robust structure than the Griggs.

Probably because it's a bolted part and because the reinforcement does not meet its end! LOL

 

Yes Madlock, let's go and drive!

We could worry about a lot of parts or designs on our cars...

For those who know Porsches: Look at the way their rear shocks are attached (lower points).

I would not bet a dime on that design, but I see race Porsches go through immense strain without ANY trouble!

Talk about single shear after that. LOL

[patrickshelby]

 

I believe one uses at least some poly while the other is full heim. Not 100% sure.

 

Regarding Vorschlag...I've followed Terry's exploits regularly and since he first started modifying his (then) newly acquired GT. If anyone can test a system he can! To be fair, I believe the predominant use he puts his cars through is auto cross as well as street driving. He commented early about looking into rod ends but hasn't acted on them as far as I know. As far as the design, I've yet to see any negative comments from him either. To be fair, he's also a vendor for WL product line. So while I trust his reviews he also isn't going to shoot himself in the foot. I'll contact him regarding a few things and see what he has to say.

Tob

 

Mine is the full heim version.

Terry is a WL vendor, yes, but I doubt he would race his car with a part he thinks could fail.

No clever brain is needed to imagine what could happen if a breakage at speed would occur...

[Tob]

Terry designs and tests constantly. If you have followed his product line for some time (which was largely BMW, etc) he often makes revisions. Take his caster/camber plates for our beloved S197's. His original design has been revised. Improved. It isn't so much not using something that could fail but rather being in a position to understand why and then to mitigate the issue. He's very good at that.

[Madlock]

Ask yourself why VORSCHLAG runs the WL without trouble....and look at their rear meats! Look at the action their car is going through! Side load there IS with those guys!

 

 

STOP right there, fella!

 

This is for the purely theoretical only. Red card for citing the practical. Two comment penalty.

 

Besides, you MAY be relying upon what COULD be a very clever ruse by a vendor for the sake of selling an extra two or three units and $900 of free hardware for each his own car. People have sold their own children into slavery for less. (Not many who can also afford to field a competitive racing brand I grant, but children have become increasingly exasperating with each successive generation.)

 

I'm appalled that you'd allow yourself to be (possibly) duped by such blatant bias and conflict of interest.

[patrickshelby]

Terry designs and tests constantly. If you have followed his product line for some time (which was largely BMW, etc) he often makes revisions. Take his caster/camber plates for our beloved S197's. His original design has been revised. Improved. It isn't so much not using something that could fail but rather being in a position to understand why and then to mitigate the issue. He's very good at that.

 

Fair enough.

Let's see how it all evolves for each of us.

[patrickshelby]

STOP right there, fella!

This is for the purely theoretical only. Red card for citing the practical. Two comment penalty.

Besides, you MAY be relying upon what COULD be a very clever ruse by a vendor for the sake of selling an extra two or three units and $900 of free hardware for each his own car. People have sold their own children into slavery for less. (Not many who can also afford to field a competitive racing brand I grant, but children have become increasingly exasperating with each successive generation.)

I'm appalled that you'd allow yourself to be (possibly) duped by such blatant bias and conflict of interest.

 

[ViperNC]

 

I can see why you were slightly disappointed with those yellow bushings. Agree... blue would be much easier to look at. Other than that, looking forward to hearing how your new setup works for you.

[svt13]

Blah people drive your cars so you can write reviews stop talking so much about these parts breaking in theory

[Tob]

You're right. Throw caution to the wind and full steam ahead!

[Kevin Patten]

[patrickshelby]

Blah people drive your cars so you can write reviews stop talking so much about these parts breaking in theory

 

Does not sound like you SVT!

Normally you ask thousands of questions analyse everything twice or more and then go over it several times again and then wait for someone to report...to argue some more... :D

[svt13]

Does not sound like you SVT!

Normally you ask thousands of questions analyse everything twice or more and then go over it several times again and then wait for someone to report...to argue some more... :D

 

I'm waiting fo this part before I continue my vicious cycle LOL