Mr. Haney Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 I was wondering if anybody has used any of Kenny Brown's suspension upgrades on a S197 Mustang chassis? Thoughts good or bad if you have. here is a link to his website to see who I'm talking about http://www.kennybrown.com/ Thanks Mr. Haney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJN Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 All I can comment on is I have there Extreme Matrix brace system. Just for jacking alone has been well worth it, not to much to feel but more peace of mind for me. I will say im kinda local for them so had them do the install and there service for me was excellent could not have asked for more and answered all of my questions and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted August 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thank You I really like his idea concerning the front lower control arms and relocating the roll center after lowering the car with springs. Everybody else want to sell you a front lower control arm to reduce unsprung weight, but not fix the geometry or raise the roll center after the spring change lowers the roll center and screws up the suspension geometry. He has both a kit to do this with your stock K member or has a replacement K member that would also reduce weight that is designed to work with the electronic power steering rack on the newer cars I have a shop close to me that has a complete KB suspension and chassis upgrades under their Mustang S197 race car in the American Iron Series that has been winning or placing very high in each race. I think they were division champs last year with this car and are heading for a repeat season this year. KB offers a street version of these upgrades that won't introduce a significant amount of noise, harmonics or vibrations into the car, but will make it corner like it's on rails from what I understand. I was hoping somebody else had used his products and could give a review of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJN Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I asked several questions about diff setups and such and I was told with all the testing they have done Kenny has felt this was the best handling setup to go. When it came down to it alot had to do with getting the roll center down as far as possible like you said, he runs no swaybar with his set up. What I really liked was for me a street with bit of track performance setup was that he suggested shocks next, and they would lower the car but also set up the f/r bias and make sure it is balanced and well handling. I figure I can not get that with a out of the box setup, I probly never would feel the difference but for me it is worth it lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 You should ask these guys http://www.chicane23.com/ They have a BOSS 302 equipped with Kenny Brown kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted August 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 You should ask these guys http://www.chicane23.com/ They have a BOSS 302 equipped with Kenny Brown kit. It seems the kit is becoming very popular with the guys running in the American Iron Series Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted August 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 I asked several questions about diff setups and such and I was told with all the testing they have done Kenny has felt this was the best handling setup to go. When it came down to it alot had to do with getting the roll center down as far as possible like you said, he runs no swaybar with his set up. What I really liked was for me a street with bit of track performance setup was that he suggested shocks next, and they would lower the car but also set up the f/r bias and make sure it is balanced and well handling. I figure I can not get that with a out of the box setup, I probly never would feel the difference but for me it is worth it lol. I haven't talked with Kenny. I've been talking with a guy that owns Performance Autosport in Richmond VA that has American Iron Series car with the KB kit running the series the last two years. KB is actually a sponsor for this team and the team is doing a lot of testing and prototype work with KB on the suspension. My car has the SVT PP option, so I was going to install the FRPP springs that are approved for the Bilstein electronic dampers with the KB kit to get the geometry corrected from lowering the car an 1.25". It should make for a great handling car from everything I've researched so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Keep us informed! Interesting because it has no watts and seems to work well. KB is working more on the geometry than on the hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted August 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Keep us informed! Interesting because it has no watts and seems to work well. KB is working more on the geometry than on the hardware. The reason the KB panhard bar kit is working so well is KB relocates it to lower the roll center of the rear suspension to equal the front roll center exactly like a Watts Link does. The panhard bar kit actually comes with mounting points for a car at stock ride height or for a lowered car so the roll center is adjusted correctly for either cars. The reason I'm looking at this is everybody that sells a Watts Link introduces a significant amount of extra maintenance in making sure that none of the bolts loosen on the axle clamps, propeller, rod ends, and body mounts. I want a better handling car, but I don't want to have to work on it every 500 miles that I drive it to keep it a safe car. The only thing I'd have to check regularly on the KB panhard bar is the rod ends on the bar, alot less to worry about in a street driven car. I'm waiting to hear back from PAS about complete pricing with installation costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 The reason the KB panhard bar kit is working so well is KB relocates it to lower the roll center of the rear suspension to equal the front roll center exactly like a Watts Link does. The panhard bar kit actually comes with mounting points for a car at stock ride height or for a lowered car so the roll center is adjusted correctly for either cars. The reason I'm looking at this is everybody that sells a Watts Link introduces a significant amount of extra maintenance in making sure that none of the bolts loosen on the axle clamps, propeller, rod ends, and body mounts. I want a better handling car, but I don't want to have to work on it every 500 miles that I drive it to keep it a safe car. The only thing I'd have to check regularly on the KB panhard bar is the rod ends on the bar, alot less to worry about in a street driven car. I'm waiting to hear back from PAS about complete pricing with installation costs. Nevertheless, all Watts manufacturers claim the panhard bar makes the car "steer" from the rear because of the lateral movement induced by the bar when the suspension is compressed...or depressed. Which makes sense to me. Nothing to do with the roll center which they both address if mounted at the right spots. This does not worry Mr.Brown I understand! And his son is quite successful at racing his BOSS 302...with his father's equipment I suppose. But would the Mustang teams be allowed to have a watts system in the World Challenge? Or are they forced to stick to the OEM type of suspension (system)? That would be interesting to know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted August 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) Nevertheless, all Watts manufacturers claim the panhard bar makes the car "steer" from the rear because of the lateral movement induced by the bar when the suspension is compressed...or depressed. Which makes sense to me. Nothing to do with the roll center which they both address if mounted at the right spots. This does not worry Mr.Brown I understand! And his son is quite successful at racing his BOSS 302...with his father's equipment I suppose. But would the Mustang teams be allowed to have a watts system in the World Challenge? Or are they forced to stick to the OEM type of suspension (system)? That would be interesting to know... The panhard bar does introduce side to side axle movement as it swings through its arc while the suspension is moving up and down. What I don't know about the KB kit is, is how close to parallel the bar is with the axle to minimize the side movement as it swings through its arc. The closer it is to parallel at the ride height of the car, the less it will introduce in axle movement. I believe part of the problem with the stock set up is the bar is at a considerable angle to the rear axle I also think part of the mustang's problem is the rear suspension squats too much on acceleration. This cause the panhard bar to move the axle side to side, which steers the car to the left from everything I've seen. The changes made with the anti-squat kit and upper link will stop the car from squatting so much on hard acceleration, which will lessen the effects of the panhard bar in unwanted side to side movement of the axle under acceleration. Under hard acceleration the car should never squat. What should happen is the suspension should work to push the car forward at its connection points of the body or frame. The rear suspension squatting is a waste of energy that keeps the car from moving forward. If the suspension is set up correctly it will actually help plant the tires harder into the pavement, while also pushing the car forward. The only limiting factor then becomes the tires traction abilities to transmit the power to the pavement. With low profile tires, traction will always be a problem with this kind of power, no matter what tires you use I haven't followed any type of auto racing in a while to be able to answer your question about the World Challenger cars. I Googled to see if I could find the rules. here is what I found http://www.world-challenge.com/series.php?page=carfacts Suspension Modifications The OEM-type of suspension must be retained (i.e. McPherson Strut, double A-arm, etc.). Alternate control arms may be submitted for approval. Shocks and springs are free, but must remain in stock location. Anti-sway bars are free. Bushings are free. Steering geometry may be modified to correct bump steer. GT: The suspension pick-up points below the top of the tire may be relocated 25mm, and the suspension pick-up points above the tire may be relocated 75mm. So they are limited to retaining the type of suspension the car was originally built with. Edited August 24, 2012 by Mr. Haney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 I know watts were used in the golden age of the trans am...(late sixties). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Saleen215 Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 ...and running a watts with a lowered roll center also allows you to drop the rear sway bar...like KB does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted August 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 I never said running a Watts link was a bad idea. It requires a lot more maintenance with these bolt on conversions kits than I'm willing to do for a street car. If you don't think it requires extra work to keep everything tight and in place, you are sadly mistaken. You evidently have never driven a car on the street with solid rod ends or bushings that have been replaced with aluminum/delrin inserts. These are a young mans modifications with a considerable amount of extra time and energy to keep the car safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 I never said running a Watts link was a bad idea. It requires a lot more maintenance with these bolt on conversions kits than I'm willing to do for a street car. If you don't think it requires extra work to keep everything tight and in place, you are sadly mistaken. You evidently have never driven a car on the street with solid rod ends or bushings that have been replaced with aluminum/delrin inserts. These are a young mans modifications with a considerable amount of extra time and energy to keep the car safe. TRUE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted April 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) Since I started this thread asking questions about Kenny Brown Performance and their suspension upgrades. Since I miss-spelled suspension in the title of the thread in this link and can't edit it. I thought I'd post the link to thread of this one with the results of my encounter with Kenny Brown Performance in this thread. Please read all of it, as the ending is very different than the beginning http://www.teamshelb...rown-susension/ Edited April 14, 2013 by Mr. Haney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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