Shelby/ Wilwood Front 6-Piston Big Brake Kit

[svt13]

Well would less brake weight stop the car better even though the rotor is smaller?

 

So I guess the question to be asked with the wilwoods is. How much less braking performance do they give than a stock 13 (they are definitely less). But how much weight do they take off? Now if the stock system is marginally better but the wilwoods decrease weight significantly then it may be worth it.

 

But I don't forsee that happening here. But that weight distribution could be why the rotor in the front is not bigger than 14 inches.

[patrickshelby]

No, the brake power will increase with the increase of the rotor size.

No question about that.

It's the effect of that increase that I was discussing.

And mainly for the previous GT500 that did not have such big rotors from Ford!

On the 13 I would go only for a 15" kit or stay with the OEM Brembos.

[EL SHELBY]

That's the part that is unknown to me and why I wouldn't assume the Wilwood is a step backwards from the Brembos on the '13. All things being equal, yes a larger rotor should improve braking, but it's my understanding that the size of rotor has a greater effect on the brakes cooling than brake force. Reducing unsprung weight is always good, but bigger brakes is not always good as there is such a thing as too much brake. The brakes need to be a balance between the weight of the car and the capabilities of the tire. After all, it's not the brake that stops the car. The brakes stop the wheels. It's the friction between tires and the ground that stop the car.

[svt13]

So then maybe it would be more worth it to put some better rubber like michelins on the shelbys and add those super snake cooling ducts and call it a day?

 

Or if Wilwood comes out with a lightweight rotor to perfectly match the 13 rotor like they already have with the 12s but include a 4 piston in the rear then would that be ideal?

 

Or maybe even just keep the 1 piston but use those rotors that are lighterweight but stock size.

[patrickshelby]

That's the part that is unknown to me and why I wouldn't assume the Wilwood is a step backwards from the Brembos on the '13. All things being equal, yes a larger rotor should improve braking, but it's my understanding that the size of rotor has a greater effect on the brakes cooling than brake force. Reducing unsprung weight is always good, but bigger brakes is not always good as there is such a thing as too much brake. The brakes need to be a balance between the weight of the car and the capabilities of the tire. After all, it's not the brake that stops the car. The brakes stop the wheels. It's the friction between tires and the ground that stop the car.

 

That is right.

But the ABS is there to avoid this.

And the resistance to fade is to be considered.

And the ability of a warm 255 or 265 tire to adhere to a clean pavement under braking with a heavy GT500 engine and a chassis transferring most of its weight forward, on them, is GREAT!

I found more brake power and more fade resistance by going from 14" to 15".

And wheel lockup limit (ABS working hard) was already something to manage with the 14", on a track...

It's just like saying: I do not want more power because the tires won't take it!

With more power you will improve your lap times. You just have to be a better driver!

[2010KonaBlueGT]

How could a smaller rotor be better than a larger one if the piston size is the same?

 

 

Your tires are the limiting factor. If you can lock up your tires, it doesn't matter what size your brakes are. And both (smaller & larger) are capable of overcoming the traction your tires afford you.

 

Now brake FADE is another story....

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

I see...... That makes sense. But then maybe the shelby won't be coming in 2015?

 

 

I was just told day before yesterday that the contract (for Ford to make a GT500) is good THROUGH 2014 and that FORD owns the Cobra name. NOT the GT500 name.

 

My bet is, you will see another Cobra or Cobra R for 2015 and beyond but no more GT500 (at least not from Ford, but perhaps from Shelby American).

 

 

Phill

[EL SHELBY]

I was just told day before yesterday that the contract (for Ford to make a GT500) is good THROUGH 2014 and that FORD owns the Cobra name. NOT the GT500 name.

 

My bet is, you will see another Cobra or Cobra R for 2015 and beyond but no more GT500 (at least not from Ford, but perhaps from Shelby American).

 

 

Phill

 

 

I don't beleive that is accurate. If I recall correctly, there was a statement made by John Luft at the Bash that the contract continues well beyond 2015. Now that doesn't ensure the GT500 will continue.

[patrickshelby]

Your tires are the limiting factor. If you can lock up your tires, it doesn't matter what size your brakes are. And both (smaller & larger) are capable of overcoming the traction your tires afford you.

 

Now brake FADE is another story....

 

 

Phill

 

If you can lock up your tire, in any circumstance, with the 14" setup, you are right.

It might well be the case on a GT500, with stock tires, on the open road.

I will try this WE on my favorite country road :-)

[2010KonaBlueGT]

If you can lock up your tire, in any circumstance, with the 14" setup, you are right.

It might well be the case on a GT500, with stock tires, on the open road.

I will try this WE on my favorite country road :-)

 

 

Pull the ABS fuse and you'll get a BIG surprise.

 

You can also disable the ABS by disconnecting one of the wheel speed sensors, then drive the car until your ABS light comes on. When your ABS light is on, the ABS is non-functional.

 

I learned this on my Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. I didn't think the brakes worked like they were supposed to until one day my ABS light came on and a dog ran out in front of me. I locked up all 4 wheels and put the car sideways, before I had time to even think about it.

 

SURPRISE!

 

You want your car to stop in a shorter distance? Get a good sticky set of tires and put them up front. Your stopping distance WILL be reduced. The ABS system will only allow the car to stop as fast as the tires allow it to. Period. Tire starts to slip? ABS kicks in and decreases hydralic pressure in the line that is slowing too rapidly (or locking up).

 

The same applies to buying a inferior tire. If you buy a tire that's not rated for the car, you WILL increase the stopping distance.

 

 

Phill

[EL SHELBY]

That is right.

But the ABS is there to avoid this.

And the resistance to fade is to be considered.

And the ability of a warm 255 or 265 tire to adhere to a clean pavement under braking with a heavy GT500 engine and a chassis transferring most of its weight forward, on them, is GREAT!

I found more brake power and more fade resistance by going from 14" to 15".

And wheel lockup limit (ABS working hard) was already something to manage with the 14", on a track...

It's just like saying: I do not want more power because the tires won't take it!

With more power you will improve your lap times. You just have to be a better driver!

 

 

All I'm getting at is that there are more factors to consider than brake/rotor size. Brake fade and brake force can be controlled thru other means without changing rotor diameter. I have no idea if the piston size, the piston force, or the pad size within the ’13 Brembo is comparable to what is offered within the Wilwood.

 

Whether or not the ABS engages is again determined by the tire and its ability to maintain adhesion with pavement, not the force and fade resistance of the brakes. Ford offers a recalibrated ABS module for the GT500 brake system which isn’t as much of a nanny as what comes with the GT and GT500. No idea if it is compatible with the '13.

[svt13]

I was just told day before yesterday that the contract (for Ford to make a GT500) is good THROUGH 2014 and that FORD owns the Cobra name. NOT the GT500 name.

 

My bet is, you will see another Cobra or Cobra R for 2015 and beyond but no more GT500 (at least not from Ford, but perhaps from Shelby American).

 

 

Phill

 

 

No they released an article saying ford will be using the shelby name past 2015 and maybe even 2020. But what I am saying is if they up the price more I don't think people will buy the shelby. 5k wasnt justified even this year. So are they going to do another 5k? They are out of their minds 80k for a shelby?

 

If they as EL Shelby says GM does use world wide profits and such like that to keep cost down, they first have to experience those benefits before they can use it. So thats why I am saying in 2015 my mustangs we may experience a 2 year lag.

 

Unless they want to build it and just pray they get extra profits to offset purposefuly decreasing the price on the car.

 

Personally I feel every flag ship car should not be made to make large amoutns of money like the shelby. There is way too much profit built into this car and it screws with the idea of a flag ship car. They should design it, make it, then make like 200 dollar profit from each car. They sell enough trucks and other stuff to offset it.

[EL SHELBY]

I didn't say GM uses it profits to keep cost down. GM leverages its development cost across multiple brands/models to keep cost down. And, I'm willing to bet Ford does not make much on each GT500. I dont think they take a bath on them as they did with the Ford GT, but highly doudt they make much. I bet they make a greater percentage on the base V6 than the GT500. Dealers on the other hand.....

[svt13]

I didn't say GM uses it profits to keep cost down. GM leverages its development cost across multiple brands/models to keep cost down. And, I'm willing to bet Ford does not make much on each GT500. I dont think they take a bath on them as they did with the Ford GT, but highly doudt they make much. I bet they make a greater percentage on the base V6 than the GT500. Dealers on the other hand.....

 

 

Dealer definitely make the most on the shelby. They need to get the mentality of the FGT into the gt500. Plus the engine for the gt500 is the FGTs so they do kinda use developemnt across brands to keep price down. Plus the shocks they have is their tech that the GTR also uses along with other stuff so I think it would have been possible to lower the price. Just they got greedy. But we all pay for it though I predict more base models around this time.

[patrickshelby]

Ooops that one is long. Sorry.

Got bored myself. Took shortcuts, you'll see!

Do not read it. Waist of time.

Just reply: NO!

 

 

Yes better tires = shorter stopping distances. Absolutely true, any car, any circumstance.

And yes, having cheap tires on a GT500 is....stupid.

Your example is a panic stop with street tires, not a controlled braking on a hopped up car after high speed, entering a corner.

A panic braking locks up most cars and most OEM tires, if not ABS controlled. I fully agree.

So if we debate the use of a 15" rotor on a Shelby that is driven on the street at "almost" legal speeds with good street tires, the question goes to wallet and looks only. Sure.

A LOT of big brake kits never get blue rotors anytime in their lives...

Any stock GT500, let alone the 13', is way too much of a car for moderate use or average driving. No need to change anything unless for looks.

And I am the first to admit big brakes with two pieces rotors that fill the rims and fancy calipers are very good looking, no problem with that at all!

End of the story.

 

But

If we speak about high performance brake equipment, we could speak about high performance driving and driving techniques in road race type of environment.

If you do more than spirited driving around the block, that is.

We speak about cars having high performance tires. R compound or v.close.

If you do not upgrade the traction abilities of the tires it's unsafe to drive very fast and useless to increase the power of the brakes...We agree on that.

 

Braking requires to know some basics, like weight transfer and modulation.

When you have to kill the speed of a sports car, you first get your car to transfer its weight on the front tires where most of the braking is happening, on the vast majority of cars.

...To get maximum traction and stabilize the chassis.

You do that by applying controlled pressure at first.

When that weight transfer happened you then can apply MUCH force to the brake pedal, to really lower the speed of the car, quickly.

...Because you braked late and the corner is jumping at you!

Then, you slowly decrease the pressure on the pedal while starting to turn the steering wheel and entering the curve, so that you free some traction potential of the tires to actually change the car's direction without slipping straight ahead.

At the stage where you really apply force to the pedal, I can assure you that high performance tires (of course warmed) have a HUGE traction potential!

You are smashed against your harness.

And at that point you need great controlled power from the brakes not ON-OFF ability (lock up or poor braking power).

That is where powerful big brakes are an advantage for a BIG HEAVY car like the GT500 (along with fade resistance, you are right).

Having larger rotors, given all the rest is equal (calipers and pads), will give you more brake power, that you will be able to use.

 

Then you factor the need or the use of the brakes given a certain track...(short / long / many heavy braking / few braking / long straights - high speed / lots of curves.../ ambiant temperature...etc ) and you choose to have a lighter setup and downsize for that track....then you run another set of wheels to reduce unsprung weight for this and that etc... the story is endless...

 

Then about ABS: There is more to it than just avoiding conventional lock ups.

All cars modified for road racing have modified ABS modules.

Example why:

If you drive on tracks with slicks or sticky tires and unmodified ABS you run the chance to experience "off track rodeo".

Very often, the section of the tracks where all the braking is happening is bumpy (mostly because of it).

If a regular ABS is present, when you smash the pedal the ABS feels the tires are locking up because the car is jumping on top of the small bumps.

...Remember it's a track car (with stiff springs).

Consequence: You have NO brakes anymore. Off the course you go.

The sensitivity of the ABS is adapted to road race conditions and equipment.

So just as the rest of all the hardware involved in the braking of a car the ABS settings or module is part of the chain that is adapted to a certain use.

 

Ouch I am tired...

Conclusion (for those who kept reading those lies):

 

If you are a show man (or women): A 15" rotor is better looking than a 14" rotor because it fills more of the rim.

if you are a real speed freak and have a modified heavy car for road racing type of driving: A 15" rotor IS more brake power and more fade resistant.

 

Funny how Ford managed to increase the rotor size (and caliper) on the 13' and have fade noticed by some journalists

Did it happened with the 12' weighting the same?...Cooling problem? Pads problem?

[EL SHELBY]

Patrick,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

[patrickshelby]

Got you EL SHELBY!

[2010KonaBlueGT]

.........you run the chance to experience "off track rodeo".

 

 

 

I like that term! <lol>

 

Anyone who has ever gone in 'too hot' knows exactly why it's so apt!

 

"Rodeo"....LOL (as in, buckin' bronco!)

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Ouch I am tired...

 

 

Dude, you got way more time (and patience) than I do!

 

I just had to READ through it, not WRITE through it!

 

 

Kudos,

 

Phill

[James Harman]

ill wait for a rear set, nothing wrong with my brembos

 

I agree Devious, same for me when thay come out with the rears.

[patrickshelby]

For the 13'

A rear Brembo four pistons kit would be great but I doubt it will ever come out!

A Shelby-Wilwood 15" frt and 14" rear would then be a nice upgrade option...if SA works on it.

And I am sure those 13' OEM Brembo's frts would be easy to sell to lower the overall cost of the Wilwood kit!

[EL SHELBY]

Its just a matter of 'when' someone offers replacement rotors for the '13 and time will only tell if Wilwood or anyone for the matter offers a complete 15/14' rotor and caliper kit. As for rear Brembo calipers, as I said earlier; if it hasn't happened in 12yrs it's not happening.

 

A few folks have make custom mounts to add Brembo calipers to their Mustang but I'm of the mind set that unless you are a brake expert that's a recipe for trouble. Mixing and matching front a rear brake makes isn't a good idea either IMO. I assume Wilwood and others design their rear kits to work specifically with their front kits. It's a big unknown how well or how poorly a rear kit from another manufacture will compliment the front Brembos. Not something I would want to use my Shelby as a guinea pig to find out.

[patrickshelby]

Its just a matter of 'when' someone offers replacement rotors for the '13 and time will only tell if Wilwood or anyone for the matter offers a complete 15/14' rotor and caliper kit. As for rear Brembo calipers, as I said earlier; if it hasn't happened in 12yrs it's not happening.

 

A few folks have make custom mounts to add Brembo calipers to their Mustang but I'm of the mind set that unless you are a brake expert that's a recipe for trouble. Mixing and matching front a rear brake makes isn't a good idea either IMO. I assume Wilwood and others design their rear kits to work specifically with their front kits. It's a big unknown how well or how poorly a rear kit from another manufacture will compliment the front Brembos. Not something I would want to use my Shelby as a guinea pig to find out.

 

+1

[Madlock]

As for rear Brembo calipers, as I said earlier; if it hasn't happened in 12yrs it's not happening.

.

 

Like it will have been 10 years for Mustang without an IRS?

[patrickshelby]

Nothing to compare here...

Ford has to install IRS if the Mustang is to survive.

Brembo just does not care about a bunch of freaks modifying a small amount of cars...

Brembo got so involved in OEM equipement all over the planet that the aftermarkets niches are certainly not profitable for them.

In my opinion...

[svt13]

They are stupid. I bet pretty much everyone here would pay an extra 1k for 4 piston OEM brembo rears.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Nothing to compare here...

Ford has to install IRS if the Mustang is to survive.

 

 

 

Check out the rear wheels on this car. It looks like it could be a IRS;

 

 

 

Phill

[patrickshelby]

Check out the rear wheels on this car. It looks like it could be a IRS;

Phill

 

I think everyone agrees now that the next gen. Mustang will have IRS.

There are pics of test mules with IRS and 2013 bodies...etc...etc...

[jfried]

Sorry to dig up an old thread... is there any potential to get these calipers with custom-colored lettering?

 

Not a fan of having red calipers or lettering, but would prefer a black caliper w/ white or silver lettering.

 

Also, is there a fitment diagram for the fronts? Potentially showing relative to stock brembos?

[Jer]

We don't offer custom lettering colors, as these are done in batches for us.

What car and wheels do you have? I'll check fitment for you.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Jer