U.S. Supreme Court Rules on Global Warming

[Ripthedealeroff]

Here is a copy of the Supreme Court decision handed down yesterday which could have a major impact on the future of the U.S. automobile.

U.S._Supreme_Court_Decision.doc

U.S._Supreme_Court_Decision.doc

[Jolly Roger]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :mellow:

[Tx Shelby]

Now I know that I took to many recess classes in school

[rpretzel]

Could someone provide a brief synopsis of the decision so I don't have to wade through the entire thing?

[FormerGmc]

Here is a copy of the Supreme Court decision handed down yesterday which could have a major impact on the future of the U.S. automobile.

 

Great! We not only have 9 social engineers on the court, now we have 5 scientists. Wonderful logic. Lets extend it to people. Can you prove that your new baby will not contribute to green house gases?

[GT500KR]

it only comes up with the header here, nothing else to read

 

this is all it says

 

103.2

 

170A Federal Civil Procedure

170AII Parties

170AII(A) In General

170Ak103.1 Standing

170Ak103.2 k. In General; Injury or Interest. Most Cited Cases

 

Federal Civil Procedure 170A ÉÍS&?Ìí·$ˆ¿E¯ü ~ÐIEND®B`‚

[Alloy Dave]

Could someone provide a brief synopsis of the decision so I don't have to wade through the entire thing?

I agree with you pretzel...wow

 

I thought I was a pretty smart person, but this makes me feel like Forrest Gump. I was able to pick up one key fact I think...

 

At the very end there is a paragraph as follows:

 

Pasted in ****

The Court's alarm over global warming may or may not be justified, but it ought not distort the outcome of this litigation. This is a straightforward administrative-law case, in which Congress has passed a malleable statute giving broad discretion, not to us but to an executive agency. No matter how important the underlying policy issues at stake, this Court has no business substituting its own desired outcome for the reasoned judgment of the responsible agency.

End of paste ****

 

This seems to indicate to me that the court says they have no business being involved...and has refused to hear the case. In reading the beginning I think it says that the plaintiff (states, local gov'ts, and environmental groups) wanted the court to say that the EPA must mandate the control of auto emissions as they relate to greenhouse gases. Evidently these same groups asked the EPA directly to do it, and they said "No thanks", so these groups then went to the Supreme Court. It appears the court says "not our business, the states already have clean air laws that should be used".

 

That's my very elementary take on it...maybe we have a lawyer or paralegal on board that can tell me if I'm wrong.

 

Dave

[KCMO-GT500]

..in spite of the media frenzy, all this ruling did was to decide that it was within the power of the EPA to investigated the issue and decide whether/how regulation of greenhouse gases was necessary. Prior to this, the EPA took the stance that they did not even have the statutory authority to do this. Now it is clear that they do. The ruling does not mandate that they decide to do this regulation.. However, congress is on the path to mandate this regulation, unless Bush will veto the bill.

[APPLESREDGT500]

Well I would think this ruling is a little late for our 07's and the 08's probably too right? :unsure:

[Joker45]

Well I would think this ruling is a little late for our 07's and the 08's probably too right? :unsure:

 

If I read the ruling right there is no new ruling. It has no effect on anything right now. just stating that the court will not deal with this.

[Alloy Dave]

Well I would think this ruling is a little late for our 07's and the 08's probably too right? :unsure:

Yes. And further than that...any regulations would likely be several years away (4-7 years). It takes about that long for manufacturer's to get the designs into their product line. For example, I'm sure Ford already has the 2010 Mustang 90% nailed down FROM A DESIGN STANDPOINT. Heck, it goes on sale in just a bit over 2 years! They need those last two years to get the supplier base geared up, get quality control approvals of all processes, and fine tune things (like the minor changes to our cars such as the hood, rear tires, etc.).

 

I worked in a diesel engine maker's R&E department for awhile, and the items I worked on didn't see the light of day for 3-4 years after I worked on them. It was hilarious...the first ones you'd test would usually have lots of problems...sometimes throwing a rod through the block. This was normal and not a bad thing...we were supposed to "test to failure".

[Alloy Dave]

If I read the ruling right there is no new ruling. It has no effect on anything right now. just stating that the court will not deal with this.

That's how I read it too...but I'm no lawyer. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night though. :banana piano:

[Joker45]

That's how I read it too...but I'm no lawyer. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night though. :banana piano:

 

LOL, Yea I'm not a lawyer either but do have some experience reading these things. And, yes I got more sleep last night then I have in about a year. :banana piano:

[KCMO-GT500]

If I read the ruling right there is no new ruling. It has no effect on anything right now. just stating that the court will not deal with this.

 

 

..not quite true. The ruling allows environmental groups to essentially require the EPA to investigate the effects of greenhouse gases, and officially justify their decision to either require regulations or to decide that regulations are not needed. So what you will soon see, in a year or so, is a decision of some sort. The ruling took the issue off of dead center. Existing statutes "require" the EPA to regulate known forms of air pollution, as defined by the statutes. The ruling says that greenhouse gases fall within the scope of potential air pollutants as defined by the statutes.

 

For us, there will be no net effects for a few years, unless congress passes something directly that raises average gas mileages. I am sure they will try to do so, and may actually succeed. Still a couple of years off from any impacts.

 

One possible impact that is more vital to the issue is how the ruling will impact various state efforts to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from autos without waiting for the EPA to act. This is of course a back door mechanism for raising gas mileages, which they are not allowed to do directly. Once a couple of the big states pass laws like this, the auto makers will have to cave in, and there we go........

 

John

[SVTpower]

You know, this whole part related to auto emissions pisses me off!!!! Right now in canada, after a car reaches 5 years old (was 3, recently changed) you have to do an e-test every 2 years until it is 20 years old. What an f' in cash grab!! Everybodys vacationed in Mexico right?? Well there must be 5 million cars there running around smoking every color imaginable out of their exhaust, why don't we go after that country............?? I know why, because it is poor and the gov't has little money so the countries with cash get nailed!!! Scam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HSURB]

Yes. And further than that...any regulations would likely be several years away (4-7 years). It takes about that long for manufacturer's to get the designs into their product line. For example, I'm sure Ford already has the 2010 Mustang 90% nailed down FROM A DESIGN STANDPOINT. Heck, it goes on sale in just a bit over 2 years! They need those last two years to get the supplier base geared up, get quality control approvals of all processes, and fine tune things (like the minor changes to our cars such as the hood, rear tires, etc.).

 

I worked in a diesel engine maker's R&E department for awhile, and the items I worked on didn't see the light of day for 3-4 years after I worked on them. It was hilarious...the first ones you'd test would usually have lots of problems...sometimes throwing a rod through the block. This was normal and not a bad thing...we were supposed to "test to failure".

 

 

Dave:

 

Madman Kramer had a big focus on Cummins tonight on CNBC. He admitted mis-reading the stock and missing an opportunity in 2006. He actually had a diesel engine on the set as a prop.

 

You may be able to catch it on the late edition. I think they re-run it at 9:00 or 10:00 Eastern time tonight.

 

HSURB

[Alloy Dave]

Dave:

 

Madman Kramer had a big focus on Cummins tonight on CNBC. He admitted mis-reading the stock and missing an opportunity in 2006. He actually had a diesel engine on the set as a prop.

 

You may be able to catch it on the late edition. I think they re-run it at 9:00 or 10:00 Eastern time tonight.

 

HSURB

Thanks HSURB...have not seen it yet but I'll watch. Yes, the stock was in the 20s 4 years ago...recently trading at 146...WOW.

[Son of GT]

You know, this whole part related to auto emissions pisses me off!!!! Right now in canada, after a car reaches 5 years old (was 3, recently changed) you have to do an e-test every 2 years until it is 20 years old. What an f' in cash grab!! Everybodys vacationed in Mexico right?? Well there must be 5 million cars there running around smoking every color imaginable out of their exhaust, why don't we go after that country............?? I know why, because it is poor and the gov't has little money so the countries with cash get nailed!!! Scam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh boo hoo. Try living in California. Were the Ahole state that started this BS. Your pissed that you have to do an E-test every two after the first five? How about E-testing after the first two years and every two years after that until the car is ten, then its an E-test EVERY YEAR until the car is crushed or sold out of state. Yea, F'in Ahole Arnold passed AB2680 about two years ago that essentally required emission checks for every F'in car built after 1975. Before AB2680, E-tests would end after 20 years. As soon as Arny signed the bill every car built before 1975 went up in value by hundreds of dollars. Oh yea, do you have to E-test everytime you sell or buy a used car? Probably not.

 

Yes it sucks, but as you can see, it could be a whole lot worse.

[ColdwaterHotrod]

Thanks HSURB...have not seen it yet but I'll watch. Yes, the stock was in the 20s 4 years ago...recently trading at 146...WOW.

BOO-YAA SKEE DADDY!

[Ripthedealeroff]

..not quite true. The ruling allows environmental groups to essentially require the EPA to investigate the effects of greenhouse gases, and officially justify their decision to either require regulations or to decide that regulations are not needed. So what you will soon see, in a year or so, is a decision of some sort. The ruling took the issue off of dead center. Existing statutes "require" the EPA to regulate known forms of air pollution, as defined by the statutes. The ruling says that greenhouse gases fall within the scope of potential air pollutants as defined by the statutes.

 

For us, there will be no net effects for a few years, unless congress passes something directly that raises average gas mileages. I am sure they will try to do so, and may actually succeed. Still a couple of years off from any impacts.

 

One possible impact that is more vital to the issue is how the ruling will impact various state efforts to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from autos without waiting for the EPA to act. This is of course a back door mechanism for raising gas mileages, which they are not allowed to do directly. Once a couple of the big states pass laws like this, the auto makers will have to cave in, and there we go........

 

John

John ,

 

You're exactly right...if the Supreme Court had decided not to hear this case there wouldn't be a case...in the legal profession it's known as Cert Denied. This decision has big implications and will have a major impact on the future of global warming and how we deal with our environment. The court finally validates that there is a problem and it's called global warming. Prior to this ruling, states were passing their own regs and the feds (Bush) were overiding them, kind of like the medical marijuana issue. This permits the EPA to go to work on this right away and believe me they will. It doesn't matter what corporations are planning to build do, etc. Once the regs are written the show is over and it will be. Folks, Global Warming is a serious problem, especially for those of you who have children. Do I think cars are the major force behind this problem, absolutely not (of course I can't stand our dependence on foreign oil)...it's those big old corporate smoke stacks spewing pollutants into our environment. With that being said will this change cafe standards etc, absolutel. As we speak the automobile industry is probably rewritting their current and future business plans.

By the way, for those of you who are interested in keeing American jobs in the U.S., they are saying this is going to create an economic boom which makes the dot com revolution look small. GM has already created a website (www.vote4chevrolet.com) for you to provide input on green cars. Be glad you have your Shelby and if you don't you might want to move a little faster with your purchase plans. JMHO

[jcthorne]

Up until now, CAFE was regulated by congress. Which in the last 15 or so years has meant that nothing really changes.

 

The EPA has had jurisdiction over emmissions so those have continued to improve year to year.

 

This ruling gives the EPA jusisdiction over greenhouse gasses. Most importantly CO2. CO2 production is directly proportional to gallons of hydrocarbon fuel burned.

 

The net effect of this is that the EPA will now regulate the production of CO2 and therefore fuel consumption. CAFE as it is currently know will fall by the wayside as outdated. Corporate Average CO2 emmisions or some such new term will effectively mandate better average fuel economy and a year over year improvement as we go forward. The stagnent CAFE requirements and its loopholes for SUVs and trucks is now a thing of the past. Likely outcome is this is the begining of the end for the second muscle car war.

 

Will take a few years to play out but the winds of change have made a move.

[KCMO-GT500]

....I think I found a new field with the EPA, instead of messing with hazardous waste, I will get into the CO2 enforcement business. Which of course means I'll be coming out to drive your shelbys to "verify" that the emissions/gas mileage meet our specs :happy feet: Think of the fun I could have with driving all of the new cars :hyper: It's too bad that's not how we really do it

[Ripthedealeroff]

....I think I found a new field with the EPA, instead of messing with hazardous waste, I will get into the CO2 enforcement business. Which of course means I'll be coming out to drive your shelbys to "verify" that the emissions/gas mileage meet our specs :happy feet: Think of the fun I could have with driving all of the new cars :hyper: It's too bad that's not how we really do it

 

KCMO,

 

Looks like you're in the right field at the right time...they say this will be bigger than the technology sector for the economy...can you say early retirement from all of your stock options that you will get as you join these new start up companies.

[KCMO-GT500]

KCMO,

 

Looks like you're in the right field at the right time...they say this will be bigger than the technology sector for the economy...can you say early retirement from all of your stock options that you will get as you join these new start up companies.

 

 

..actually retirement is in 6 years, 1 month and 24 days, but who's counting

 

wife is a first grade teacher, will have 33 years in, I will have 32 years with EPA, around 5 more with chemical plants, and most importantly, youngest son will have just gotten out of college (giving him 5 years). Will hopefully be in good enough shape to spend the next dozen years or so traveling around the usa doing habitat for humanity, salvation army, red cross type volunteer work. Really looking forward to that phase of my life.

 

But you are right on the technology end. There will be a lot of business in the air pollution control field, actually there already is, really starting to ramp up overseas. Definitely a good time for pollution control engineers and technical sales types.

[68fastback]

I think the ruling that it's in the EPA's pervue to regulate CO2 is going to start a whole new Carbon-brokering game like the power-generating companies have been playing for years.

 

I agree that it is, effectively, the new face of CAFE.

 

This whole subject is so prone to new political gamesmanship, but from the automalers viewpoint, I think we'll see a full-court press for emissions-parity across ALL carbon-based emissions regardless of industry, because the auto idistry is actuall well ahead of the curve, imo. Some more thoughts here.

 

One things for sure.. whenever the 'rules' of the game change there always is major political posturing, potentially disruptive technological changes and business winners and losers. Either way we pay, whether for the better or worse -- however anyone defines that. Accelerated change isn't necessarily bad, but it's always more expensive, imo.

 

Dan

[KCMO-GT500]

..and don't ever ever think that the ultimate decisions will make technical sense., its all about what plays well in the media, and with your constituents. By their own models, those who push the whole concept of global warming and CO2 impact acknowledge that getting rid of all cars tomorrow will have an insignificant influence on their modeled progression of global warming. I am firmly convinced that many expensive and far reaching decisions will be reached on horribly insufficient data, and modeling performed by those with an agenda.

 

John

[69shelby4me]

..actually retirement is in 6 years, 1 month and 24 days, but who's counting

 

wife is a first grade teacher, will have 33 years in, I will have 32 years with EPA, around 5 more with chemical plants, and most importantly, youngest son will have just gotten out of college (giving him 5 years). Will hopefully be in good enough shape to spend the next dozen years or so traveling around the usa doing habitat for humanity, salvation army, red cross type volunteer work. Really looking forward to that phase of my life.

 

But you are right on the technology end. There will be a lot of business in the air pollution control field, actually there already is, really starting to ramp up overseas. Definitely a good time for pollution control engineers and technical sales types.

Hi John,

 

Yesterday I went to a Shelby and Mustang restoration shop. I helped a friend of mine trailer his 65 K code out for a polish before all the shows begin. Just to see their showroom with all their fearsome ford engines all finished to pristine condition and to see the new Carroll Shelby wheels. They also are finishing my 2007 GT 500. When you get some time give me a call. We will give them a visit.

 

Happy Easter

 

Larry