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2011 GT500 or 2012 Boss 302


obxman

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I am contemplating buying either a new competition orange boss 302 with the recaros/torsen differential or a 2011 shelby gt500 with svt performance package and electronics package and 2000 miles.

 

The used 2011 gt500 is priced the same as the new 2012 boss 302 so it is definitely a tough decision. What do you think the pros/cons of each vehicle? Either vehicle have more long-term value than the other?

 

Would love to hear from someone that owns both a 2011/2012 shelby and a 2012 boss 302.

 

Any opinion or comments would be greatly appreciated.

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I too struggled with this. I ended up with the GT500 mostly for the fact that I wanted the stronger motor with more build potential and because of the initial power over the 5.0. I bought a 2012 with the electronics package, SVT PP package, and the Recaro seats. For long term value I see both holding up for what they are. The 5.4 may soon be gone forever after 2014, Ford has already killed it off in the truck line and next year it turns into a 5.8. In 2015 when the EPA requires the new fuel mileage minimums we might see the big blocks disappear altogether, if that happens the GT500 could see a nice hold in their value. The Boss is a cool car too, but for me personally it doesn't separate itself enough from the regular GT for me to want to own one. If you want to build big power later down the road, the motor and tranny in the GT500 are suited for that where the 5.0L would need a lot to push over 800rwhp safely. Shelby is even building a 1000HP SuperSnake as we speak that will be available for order next year, that just goes to show how strong the drivetrain in that car is.

 

Either way you can't go wrong, just ask yourself what you want to do with it (track/drag race/street runner), how much do you wanna pay (Boss is cheaper), and ultimately what looks better to you. Best of luck on your decision and search .

 

Tejas

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I too struggled with this. I ended up with the GT500 mostly for the fact that I wanted the stronger motor with more build potential and because of the initial power over the 5.0. I bought a 2012 with the electronics package, SVT PP package, and the Recaro seats. For long term value I see both holding up for what they are. The 5.4 may soon be gone forever after 2014, Ford has already killed it off in the truck line and next year it turns into a 5.8. In 2015 when the EPA requires the new fuel mileage minimums we might see the big blocks disappear altogether, if that happens the GT500 could see a nice hold in their value. The Boss is a cool car too, but for me personally it doesn't separate itself enough from the regular GT for me to want to own one. If you want to build big power later down the road, the motor and tranny in the GT500 are suited for that where the 5.0L would need a lot to push over 800rwhp safely. Shelby is even building a 1000HP SuperSnake as we speak that will be available for order next year, that just goes to show how strong the drivetrain in that car is.

 

Either way you can't go wrong, just ask yourself what you want to do with it (track/drag race/street runner), how much do you wanna pay (Boss is cheaper), and ultimately what looks better to you. Best of luck on your decision and search .

 

Tejas

 

 

The Boss motor is no GT 5.0. It's a fully forged rotating assembly that is actually stronger than that in the GT500. A GT500 can blow to pieces @ 800HP. It has weak rods. Check the recent MM&FF. They installed a KB 3.6L on a Boss 302 and put out 767rwhp with ease at only 15 PSI. The motor is no joke. Google around a bit on the differences between the Boss 5.0 and GT 5.0. You'll be surprised. The heads on that thing absolutely destroy the heads in the GT500.

 

High-performance 5.0-liter, four-valve Ti-VCT engine

 

Displacement 302 cu. in.

3.63 bore x 3.65-in stroke

Aluminum block

Forged steel crankshaft

Upgraded sinter-forged connecting rods for improved strength

 

Forged aluminum pistons

Aluminum cylinder heads, DOHC, four valves per cylinder, variable intake, variable camshaft timing,

High-strength aluminum-alloy cylinder heads with fully CNC-machined ports and chambers for exceptional high-rpm airflow without sacrificing low-speed torque

 

Sodium-filled exhaust valves for improved heat dissipation

 

11.0:1 compression ratio

 

The lightweight aluminum cylinder block features cross-bolted main bearing caps and thick main bearing bulkheads for bottom-end strength. For the track, the oil pan features a large sump 8.5 qt capacity with revised oil pan baffling for improved oil control under hard cornering.

 

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My bad, I have been misinformed, I stand corrected. However, the 5.4 has been making far over the 1000rwhp mark with the 3.6 blower and even more with TT's and on reliable, turn key, street driven cars.

 

I don't see the crappy chinese tranny in the 5.0 holding up under stock power let alone numbers twice that of stock.

 

I am in no way knocking on the Boss or 5.0, I just personally don't see the Boss as superior, better in some ways, yes, but superior, no!

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... A GT500 can blow to pieces @ 800HP. It has weak rods. Check the recent MM&FF...

 

:headscratch:

 

I've never heard of this.

My son and I got to drive the first 800hp SS this past May in Carlisle. No engine internals were changed. I guarantee SAI would disagree with you and MM&FF on this one...

 

 

IMG_2850.jpg

 

IMG_2839.jpg

 

IMG_2824.jpg

 

IMG_2818.jpg

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Jerseygator: modularfords.com .

 

The rods in the GT500 are the well known weak link. Any tuner can tell you this. If SAI says the rods are strong, they have never opened up the shortblock.

 

A quick Google search can give some insight:

 

https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=gt500+weak+rods&pbx=1&oq=gt500+weak+rods&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=455l2675l0l2773l15l11l0l1l1l1l420l1860l2.6.0.1.1l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=80906b23c736b9a7&biw=1755&bih=983

 

It has been known since 2006 when the 07 came out.

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My bad, I have been misinformed, I stand corrected. However, the 5.4 has been making far over the 1000rwhp mark with the 3.6 blower and even more with TT's and on reliable, turn key, street driven cars.

 

I don't see the crappy chinese tranny in the 5.0 holding up under stock power let alone numbers twice that of stock.

 

I am in no way knocking on the Boss or 5.0, I just personally don't see the Boss as superior, better in some ways, yes, but superior, no!

 

 

Everything on the Boss 302 is stronger sans the transmission - I agree, it sucks.

 

The Boss made near 800 @ 15 PSI. It will go past 1000 easily as well. The 5.0 was built to rev, the GT500 is not. That's why the stock limiter is 6250 versus 7500 on the Boss. Boss's have proven reliable @ 8400 RPM - GT500's explode past 6500 quite often. Why? Weak rods and insane piston speed.

 

I can tell you this. Once you hear a KB Boss 302 at 7,500 RPMs - it's difficult to be impressed by a GT500. Still love them, though.

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Jerseygator: modularfords.com .

 

The rods in the GT500 are the well known weak link. Any tuner can tell you this. If SAI says the rods are strong, they have never opened up the shortblock.

 

A quick Google search can give some insight:

 

https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=gt500+weak+rods&pbx=1&oq=gt500+weak+rods&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=455l2675l0l2773l15l11l0l1l1l1l420l1860l2.6.0.1.1l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=80906b23c736b9a7&biw=1755&bih=983

 

It has been known since 2006 when the 07 came out.

 

 

 

In all fairness to your claim I went to google and did the search. It seemed like there were as many saying they were fine as those saying no.

 

No offense to your claim, but like I said in my original post. I'm gonna stick with SAI on this one. I do not believe they would make/sell 800 HP Super Snakes if they had any thoughts that they'd grenade. And what about the twin turbo'd Code Red. It was pushing 1200 hp in the stock 5.4.

 

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/shelby/2010-shelby-gt500-code-red-ar99959.html

 

We are all allowed our opinions...

 

:salute:

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In all fairness to your claim I went to google and did the search. It seemed like there were as many saying they were fine as those saying no.

 

No offense to your claim, but like I said in my original post. I'm gonna stick with SAI on this one. I do not believe they would make/sell 800 HP Super Snakes if they had any thoughts that they'd grenade. And what about the twin turbo'd Code Red. It was pushing 1200 hp in the stock 5.4.

 

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/shelby/2010-shelby-gt500-code-red-ar99959.html

 

We are all allowed our opinions...

 

:salute:

 

 

The SS is rated 800 @ the crank. It has a conservative tune and a low RPM limit. It's right around the limit of where it should be without changing the rods to a 4340 H-beam. People who say "they are fine" are those who haven't blown up or are running weak tunes and not using the blower they paid for.

 

You want to see a rod? Check the 03/04 Cobra rod. If they put those in the GT500 like they should have there would have been no issue.

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Fortunately for Shelby, we've extensively tested the GT500 5.4L engine by the HUNDREDS and we wouldn't be putting out an 800HP SuperSnake if this weakness were detrimental. And if it were, you'd be reading about extreme failures on this forum where the action occurs.

 

Lastly, we'd be be getting feedback from our partner, which isn't the case.

 

Naturally, this isn't to say that failures will not happen - we're talking about 800HP and extreme stresses over time.

 

Having worked on Nascar (former Winston Cup series) engines, we had engine failures there too, even with the best components and fasteners that money can buy. I've seen catastrophic engine failures occur right on the dyno.

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Fortunately for Shelby, we've extensively tested the GT500 5.4L engine by the HUNDREDS and we wouldn't be putting out an 800HP SuperSnake if this weakness were detrimental. And if it were, you'd be reading about extreme failures on this forum where the action occurs.

 

Lastly, we'd be be getting feedback from our partner, which isn't the case.

 

 

If you can't admit they are weak - there is nothing to argue. The stock motor is safe @ 650RW @ 6250 RPM. Past that - rods are weak. 800HP is a crank rating. Whats the SS's RPM limiter set at robert?

 

 

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/shelby-gt500-150/791467-whats-weak-link-rev-limitation.html

 

 

on and on and on.

 

If anyone wants to have a technical discussion, PM me. Why everyone wants to "defend" the rods in the car- I have no idea. Any respectable tuner or engine builder agrees.

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If you can't admit they are weak - there is nothing to argue. The stock motor is safe @ 650RW @ 6250 RPM. Past that - rods are weak. 800HP is a crank rating. Whats the SS's RPM limiter set at robert?

 

 

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/shelby-gt500-150/791467-whats-weak-link-rev-limitation.html

 

 

on and on and on.

 

If anyone wants to have a technical discussion, PM me. Why everyone wants to "defend" the rods in the car- I have no idea. Any respectable tuner or engine builder agrees.

 

 

You've made your point, and reiterating it in an argumentative manner will not improve your credibility. I suggest you let the sleeping dog lie.

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Even this forum!

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1

 

Specifically:

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php?/topic/39115-lethals-gt500-engine-bites-the-dust/page__view__findpost__p__631110

 

As far as the rods go SVT may call them "Forged" or "Crack Powdered" and have all the technical explanations about them but that really doesn't mean much to me. These are the same "engineers" that gave most of everyone in 2007 and early 08 clutch assemblies that failed. So I take everything with a grain of salt when I hear technical jargon from them.

 

A while back we from others that these motors didn't like to be revved higher than the 6250 range. We were well aware of that when we asked to have the limiter raised to 6700 so that we could shift at 6500. With the power we were making it was a gamble and we were comfortable taking it. We were also told by one of the best modular engine builders in the country who is building the new motor that the the rods were the weak point and anything over 700rwhp could mean failure. That was told to us back in Dec of 07 when we first purchased the car. We had looked into having a block built right off the bat as we knew we were going to be pushing it hard once the Whipple went on. I would take Al Papitto's advice about a modular 5.4L block over most as he's been pushing the 5.4L motor harder than most for years before the new GT500 was even thought of. I'm not quite sure if this is still the case but he had the record for having the fastest N/A 5.4L car in the country running low 9's. I only mention this stuff because he's the one that's passed the info along to us and many others about the stock rods in the GT500 5.4L motor.

 

So I know for some they may want to look into the failure and try to analyze what the cause was. However, the info I've gathered from some of the best in the industry, that have seen the same failure as us, that it's pretty apparent that the rods simply can't handle that much power as well as that much power with high rpm revs.

Have a great weekend.

 

Jared

 

 

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Here are the stock GT500 rods:

 

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/sfadchi/MotorBuild/047.jpg

 

compare to the 03/04 Cobra rods:

 

http://imageshack.us/f/46/s4010273.jpg

 

GT500: cracked forged powdered metal rod

 

03/04 Cobra: 4340 forged H-beam.

 

One is nearly 2x as strong. Guess which.

 

If your goal is a long lasting, 650rwhp ( close to what the "800HP" SS puts out at the rear ) GT500 that you rev limit @ 6250 and shift at 6000, the stock rods are fine. Anything beyond that, ESPECIALLY RPM, make sure you have money for a new short block.

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The Boss 302 and GT500 models, as well as their engines were designed for different purposes and intents. Trying to arbitrarily mix them based on their rev limits doesn't accurately compare or explain them.

 

If we were basing durability on RPM ratings alone, than we could also bring the amount of total compression that a GT500 can take vs. a Boss 302 into the discussion as well. We're talking about different stressors here.

 

The Boss 302 is a great machine, however, it's design and thus its internals were intended for road racing usage where the demands are different than the GT500s.

 

But this has always been the case as in my old school Boss Mustang when compared to my 428 Mustang.

 

I'm really not trying to argue, I am merely trying to offer an explanation as to current production pieces.

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ok not to be rude guys, but can we get back on topic. In stock trim from those that have driven or own both the 2011/12 shelby and the 2012 boss 302, which one would you buy again if given the choice?

 

 

I'd buy the BOSS 302, but only the LS and ONLY if I intended to drive it far more often on the track and less often on the street – and only if I intended to keep it in addition to any OTHER Mustangs I own. The 302 LS is a legitimate limited-production car, but I ALSO wouldn't spend a nickel over sticker for one.

 

I'd opt for the baseline 302 if money were truly a factor and track performance mattered more to me than street driving. It's much easier to make a GT500 trackable than make the 302 a great daily driver. In that respect, the baseline 302 is a tremendous value proposition at a reasonable price – that's also likely to hold value better if you plan to trade-up relatively often – ESPECIALLY if you have a dealer that will make a prearranged private party sale part of your trade.

 

Otherwise, despite the GT500 being inherently heavier, you can retune its power profile to be more 302-like – and even gear-up the rear axle at the same time you're adding a Torsen differential to quicken it up a bit. There's otherwise very little the 302 does for handling that a FR-3 pack won't – or swapping springs and dampers piecemeal – taking into account the GT500's heavier nose.

 

After all, the 302 trades-off some torque for horsepower to run so well in the higher revs range. With all the torque and ponies the 500 has to burn, you can do nearly anything you want to achieve a similar profile that factors-in any power/weight property differences. TracKey doesn't do anything for performance you can't do with an SCT - plus more.

 

Just remember how much a difference tires also make. The F1 G: 2's are terrific on a hot track, but Goodyear also tried to make them very streetable – which they CAN BE in the right, hot conditions. The 302's Pirelli Corsas don't give a damn about treadwear OR street comfort. On equal tires, they're MUCH harder to tell apart.

 

The right shoes on a GT500 go a LONG way to giving it VERY 302-like track abilities – and a good set of ultra-high performance all-seasons (Michelin PS2 A/S, Continental ExtremeContact DWS, Bridgestone Pole Position,etc.) will benefit the hell out of BOTH cars – making the GT500 as comfortable to back-out cold from your driveway at 40°F than warmed-up F1 G: 2s on a120°track.

 

If I intended AT ALL to drive it often on the streets, the 500 would be the only real choice to make – with a good solid GT running a close second by virtue of performance bang for the buck. Leather seats, Navigation and everything else that makes the GT/GT500 a better, more comfortable and enjoyable road car leave the 302 much harder to live with everyday – especially with so much 302 hardware available for so little from the parts desk.

 

It's also MUCH harder (though not impossible) to take the 302 to 750hp – let alone with off-the-shelf solutions. And I don't care what anybody says about how great the 302 sounds (and it most surely does) – there's nothing like a supercharger whine coming-in over the top to make for a true symphony.

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ok not to be rude guys, but can we get back on topic. In stock trim from those that have driven or own both the 2011/12 shelby and the 2012 boss 302, which one would you buy again if given the choice?

 

 

OK - here is my VOTE. I have the 08 Shelby GT Conv with all the options (Nav, heated seats, Sirius, etc. and 5 spd.) and I drove the Boss 302 as a potential. After considering it, I stuck with my SGT. Now, if you enter the GT 500 (I still want my SGT) and I had to pick, I would take the GT 500 based on just looks alone....just my preference. If Ford improves the front end appearance of the Boss 302, then I may change my mind, but I think it looks cheap with the missing 2nd set of lights (fog/driving lights) in my opinion. The car looks like its asleep or something and reminds me of the front of the new Camero....

 

Go for the GT500....

 

Good luck either way!

 

Andy.

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This would be a very difficult decision if I had to make it.

 

I am not a fan of Used Cars, especially ones like this that can be abused. If they were both New I would go for the Boss due to price difference, with both the same price and the GT500 slightly used to me it would be which one had the options/color I prefer.

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Just trying to pass info to you. The rods are weak - every engine builder agrees. Shelby is not an engine builder - they put on boltons.

 

 

Not a problem... It's all good. :salute:

 

 

Mentioned this discussion to Gary Patterson. Here's his reply... Found it very interesting.

 

========================================================================

 

Peter,

 

The engines are both great. The 5.4 is a great engine. Rods and pistons are a weak link but only if you miss use them or run it past the factory rev limit of 6250, run on crappy gas etc. If people leave the tune alone and run good grade of fuel etc they shouldn’t have trouble with the 5.4 engines. Many tuners change the rev limit and that is where they get in trouble. The Code Red TT car makes way over 1000rwhp with a 5.4 iron block but it has a specially machined crank, new H beam rods, forged pistons, cams and a dry sump oil system….etc etc. It easily spins over 7000rpm which is not likely with the stock oil system no matter what rods and pistons you put in it. It is amazing how much people think they know.

 

The 5.0 is a newer engine design with variable valve timing. What people are not saying is that the power that they achieved was not on pump gas or emissions legal. You also can’t compare boost levels as they have radically different compression ratios from the factory. The 5.0 is 11 to 1 stock and the 5.4 was designed for a super charger and only has 8.4 to 1 compression. As such the 5.4 needs and will take and needs more boost to perform well.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Gary Patterson

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Since you asked here it goes .98% of 07 GT500's have stripes. 65% of 12 GT500's have stripes and most of them are the thin SVT type. It seems like more people are going with out the stripes . I think the Boss is way over the top with stripes and wheels . I would prefer a GT500 Black with no stripes over the black seca Boss.

 

I saw a black seca @ a car show and it was WAY to over the top. It just says" look @ ME" to much. It's great @ car shows, but not for going out to dinner . Hey look @ that kid's car over there !

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