90GT Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Saleen PJ Watts Rear Suspension Since the rear suspension on the GT500 and the regular GT are similar, this should work on both cars although I haven't confirmed this. This rear suspension would definitely take care of any wheel hop issues. :happy feet: :happy feet: :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Saleen PJ Watts Rear Suspension Since the rear suspension on the GT500 and the regular GT are similar, this should work on both cars although I haven't confirmed this. This rear suspension would definitely take care of any wheel hop issues. :happy feet: :happy feet: :happy feet: Cool! Look like nice pieces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Not sure how this would help straight ahead wheel hop. It will sure help some of the ass-hop and rear end twitching from the Panhard bar. You'll still need LCA and UCA changes since they don't come in this kit. Anyone do a better price than MSRP on this? Oooh, oooh. I think I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcthorne Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I understand the panhard bar on the stock suspension needs to be replaced with one having a better mount and end connections but, Why would this watts link be 'better' than a proper pan hard bar? What does it do better and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Both the Panhard bar (Track bar in NASCAR, probably to avoid copywrite stuff (chuckle)) and the Watts link provide a means to locate the rear axle laterally (right to left) with respect to the body. The Panhard bar has a pivot at both ends, one of which is tied to the body, the other to the axle housing. As the rear axle moves up and down, it pivots about the point at which the Panhard bar is tied to the body. The axle pivot point describes a circle of radius R (the length of the Panhard bar in other words) centered at that body pivot point. So as the axle drops with repect to the body, it also moves to the left as the Panhard bar rotates clockwise. In other words, there is only one point of rear suspension deflection when the axle is exacly centered on the car's fore and aft centerline. As the car moves up or down on the rear suspension from that point, the axle moves left or right of the centerline. This will cause the rear end of the body to move around as the car bounces up or down assuming the tires stay stuck to the road and don't slide. This effect will also provide some steering effect - better in one direction, worse in the other. For a track which starts and ends at the same point - road course or oval - there is always more turn in one direction. The track bar / Panhard bar can be installed so as to help the turns in the majority direction. The Watts link ensures lateral axle location just like the Panhard bar, but the extra pivot points ensure the axle stays centered on the car's fore / aft centerline through any amount of vertical deflection by the rear axle. If you look at the picture, you will see the short, vertical black bar mounted to the diff cover. There is a pivot in the center of the bar, and this is the place where the axle is located right to left as opposed to the Panhard rig which locates the axle pivot on the right axle tube. As the rear axle deflects upward, that bar rotates clockwise on the center pivot on the diff cover. That allows the axle to remain equally distant from both the two body pivot points. (Note that there are two attachments to the body with the Watts link as opposed to just one for the Panhard bar.) If the axle deflects downward, that bar rotates counterclockwise to achieve the same effect - centering the axle. The Panhard bar is simple (read: cheap) but has drawbacks. The Watts link has better performance and costs more. In fairness, the Panhard bar probably works OK for most folks who don't hammer into the turns. Unfortunately, that leaves me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropping__Chronic Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Both the Panhard bar (Track bar in NASCAR, probably to avoid copywrite stuff (chuckle)) and the Watts link provide a means to locate the rear axle laterally (right to left) with respect to the body. The Panhard bar has a pivot at both ends, one of which is tied to the body, the other to the axle housing. As the rear axle moves up and down, it pivots about the point at which the Panhard bar is tied to the body. The axle pivot point describes a circle of radius R (the length of the Panhard bar in other words) centered at that body pivot point. So as the axle drops with repect to the body, it also moves to the left as the Panhard bar rotates clockwise. In other words, there is only one point of rear suspension deflection when the axle is exacly centered on the car's fore and aft centerline. As the car moves up or down on the rear suspension from that point, the axle moves left or right of the centerline. This will cause the rear end of the body to move around as the car bounces up or down assuming the tires stay stuck to the road and don't slide. This effect will also provide some steering effect - better in one direction, worse in the other. For a track which starts and ends at the same point - road course or oval - there is always more turn in one direction. The track bar / Panhard bar can be installed so as to help the turns in the majority direction. The Watts link ensures lateral axle location just like the Panhard bar, but the extra pivot points ensure the axle stays centered on the car's fore / aft centerline through any amount of vertical deflection by the rear axle. If you look at the picture, you will see the short, vertical black bar mounted to the diff cover. As the rear axle deflects upward, that bar rotates clockwise on the center pivot on the diff cover. That allows the axle to remain equally distant from both the body pivot point and the axle pivot point. If the axle deflects downward, that bar rotates counterclockwise to achieve the same effect - centering the axle. The Panhard bar is simple (read: cheap) but has drawbacks. The Watts link has better performance and costs more. In fairness, the Panhard bar probably works OK for most folks who don't hammer into the turns. Unfortunately, that leaves me out. Nice explanation, thanks for taking the time to explain it so well. Keep hammering those turns, and taking notes! When I get mine I'll be asking you for advice on parts! :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 DC. You're welcome. Now I'll pass among you with this cup. Feel free to drop in the odd $100 bill to help me reach my dream. That's Watts important to me. :hyper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredmatic Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Wondering what they did about exhaust clearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropping__Chronic Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 DC. You're welcome. Now I'll pass among you with this cup. Feel free to drop in the odd $100 bill to help me reach my dream. That's Watts important to me. :hyper: No problem - Your post-dated, third party, out of state check should be in the mail today. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to cash/deposit it no problem. FOR SCIENCE!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Fred - Good point. Not answered in the photo. Looks like a work in progress photo on the top car. Right hand exhaust pipe appears to have been reworked with an additional knuckle in it it. Update: I called the dealer identified on the link and asked two questions: Any welding required, any mod to the factory exhaust system? Answers: No, and No. He has some units on order, but Saleen will supply them on a not-to-interfere-with PJ production basis. Personally, what I intend to do is to order the BMR LCA and adjustable Panhard rod and install them. If I'm not satisfied with the corner control, I will probably go next to the Watts link. I will wait on the UCA because I am not sure what effect, if any, the Watts link would have on controlling the change in pinion angle during acceleration. If the bearing in the center of the black bar attached to the diff cover is a spherical bearing, then it probably would have no effect either way is my guess. If it is just a poly bushing, it might. Thanks to 90GT for the posting. I have been waiting for info on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alloy Dave Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Both the Panhard bar (Track bar in NASCAR, probably to avoid copywrite stuff (chuckle)) and the Watts link provide a means to locate the rear axle laterally (right to left) with respect to the body. The Panhard bar has a pivot at both ends, one of which is tied to the body, the other to the axle housing. As the rear axle moves up and down, it pivots about the point at which the Panhard bar is tied to the body. The axle pivot point describes a circle of radius R (the length of the Panhard bar in other words) centered at that body pivot point. So as the axle drops with repect to the body, it also moves to the left as the Panhard bar rotates clockwise. In other words, there is only one point of rear suspension deflection when the axle is exacly centered on the car's fore and aft centerline. As the car moves up or down on the rear suspension from that point, the axle moves left or right of the centerline. This will cause the rear end of the body to move around as the car bounces up or down assuming the tires stay stuck to the road and don't slide. This effect will also provide some steering effect - better in one direction, worse in the other. For a track which starts and ends at the same point - road course or oval - there is always more turn in one direction. The track bar / Panhard bar can be installed so as to help the turns in the majority direction. The Watts link ensures lateral axle location just like the Panhard bar, but the extra pivot points ensure the axle stays centered on the car's fore / aft centerline through any amount of vertical deflection by the rear axle. If you look at the picture, you will see the short, vertical black bar mounted to the diff cover. There is a pivot in the center of the bar, and this is the place where the axle is located right to left as opposed to the Panhard rig which locates the axle pivot on the right axle tube. As the rear axle deflects upward, that bar rotates clockwise on the center pivot on the diff cover. That allows the axle to remain equally distant from both the two body pivot points. (Note that there are two attachments to the body with the Watts link as opposed to just one for the Panhard bar.) If the axle deflects downward, that bar rotates counterclockwise to achieve the same effect - centering the axle. The Panhard bar is simple (read: cheap) but has drawbacks. The Watts link has better performance and costs more. In fairness, the Panhard bar probably works OK for most folks who don't hammer into the turns. Unfortunately, that leaves me out. Excellent description of how it works...thanks. I'd not been exposed to Watts links until this post came up. You didn't mention NVH or ride quality...what happens there? I would imagine it would be a bit noisy and harsh. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Nice write-up ThreeCobras... I think the center pivot will need to be a solid bushing so that the Watts lateral link bushings don't bear the burden of maintaining the geometry of the center/pivot link (which a barrel/spherical mount would require them to do). Either way, hi-duro poly-bushed LCAs/UCA to adjust and control pinion angle will greatly reduce twisting wear on the Watts lateral link poly bushings -- I'd think good LCAs/UCA would be essential to prevent early failure of the Watts poly bushings -- just based on the geometry of the design. Conversely, the Watts design is much more friendly to high-duro UCA bushings because it eliminates lateral movement at a geometry level as well as the better bushings also helping with that. I can see how the stock exhaust would fit ok... the sway bar (the rearward section near the exhaust) doesn't move relative to the chassis/exhaust and the exhaust looks close enough to the fixed ends of the Watts links to prevent much movement relative to the exhaust with vertical axle movement. Another advantage of the Watts over the Panhard is that in lumpy turns, the axle is freer to pivot and move in a balanced fashion around it's center point (the Watts mid-link mounting point) making it a bit more responsive than the Panhard which favors one side, bears uneven unsprung weight and has a downward vector on one side when the Panhard is loaded laterally, as in turns. Even if the Panhard is optimized for track rotation the bias toward one end of the axle has the effect of biased axle loading and damping, and this is exacerbated by the dynamically-centered effects with suspension travel of the Panhard as Three Cobras pointed out. Typically the Watts carries a bit more unsprung weight but it's a small penalty, imo, for a more road-course friendly solution with perfect wheel-chassis location and more predictable dynamics, tho admittedly not a factor in a street setting or non-competitive road use. -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Jeez, Dan, whose side are you on? You're FORCING me to spend that $1200 aren't you. Thanks for the additional amplification. You didn't mention that the extra weight of the Watts link would add to traction - a big plus. Well, a little one anyway. I think I might have got my Panhard rod attachment points bassackwards -body pivot is on the right, axle to the left - for those of you who look under the car. Sorry, the points the three of us have made are still the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90GT Posted March 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Fred -Good point. Not answered in the photo. Looks like a work in progress photo on the top car. Right hand exhaust pipe appears to have been reworked with an additional knuckle in it it. Update: I called the dealer identified on the link and asked two questions: Any welding required, any mod to the factory exhaust system? Answers: No, and No. He has some units on order, but Saleen will supply them on a not-to-interfere-with PJ production basis. Personally, what I intend to do is to order the BMR LCA and adjustable Panhard rod and install them. If I'm not satisfied with the corner control, I will probably go next to the Watts link. I will wait on the UCA because I am not sure what effect, if any, the Watts link would have on controlling the change in pinion angle during acceleration. If the bearing in the center of the black bar attached to the diff cover is a spherical bearing, then it probably would have no effect either way is my guess. If it is just a poly bushing, it might. Thanks to 90GT for the posting. I have been waiting for info on this. No problem!!! Unfortunately I just shelled out a large chunk of change and had Evolution redo my suspension. Then I saw this, figures!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Jeez, Dan, whose side are you on? You're FORCING me to spend that $1200 aren't you. Thanks for the additional amplification. You didn't mention that the extra weight of the Watts link would add to traction - a big plus. Well, a little one anyway.I think I might have got my Panhard rod attachment points bassackwards -body pivot is on the right, axle to the left - for those of you who look under the car. Sorry, the points the three of us have made are still the same. :devil: <lol> ...but it has more unsprung weight, so you definately won't want to buy it ...but the unsprung weight is evenly distributed on both sides :devil: You have to admit, that Saleen Watts is just pure sex -- you know you have to have it <lol> [now keep your eyes on the watch, breath slowly and say: I must have the Watts... I must have the Watts... after you have bought it you will remember nothing <lol> ;-)] -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Everybody's a comedian. Watt's up with that? Where were you when I did my GT500PL press release last year? Everyone seemed to take that one seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Everybody's a comedian. Watt's up with that? Where were you when I did my GT500PL press release last year? Everyone seemed to take that one seriously. GT500PL? Ah, that must have been when PSDS was viral and everyone was a wee bit 'edgey.' <lol> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 GT500PL? Ah, that must have been when PSDS was viral and everyone was a wee bit 'edgey.' <lol> Did you say edgy? You might want to go back and read it as well as the reply postings. It is still pretty funny. To get to it, go to the Search button on the upper right of this screen. Enter GT500PL, then look at the third thread down dated April 27 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Did you say edgy? You might want to go back and read it as well as the reply postings. It is still pretty funny. To get to it, go to the Search button on the upper right of this screen. Enter GT500PL, then look at the third thread down dated April 27 2006. Ah, yes... I remember it well now... a veritable trip down memory lane. I guess a smiley-face would have blown the whole thing from the start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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