daemonj Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Just had my first oil change at 2,000mi. Service Dept quoted me $70.00 but ended up charging me 132.00. Bastards... Claimed the guy at the counter didn't understand the requirements for the GT500. Tried to make me feel better by telling me at least its not a Ford GT since those are 220.00 for a change. Either way, the tech initially put in 6.5 out of the bottle but after checking the stick said it still need a tad more to hit the top marker. He had me start it for a minute and then rechecked. He ended up putting in a full 7qt. Has anyone else been told that it takes 7qts not 6.5 to top off their GT500's? Oh, and after this I will just be doing my own changes. I'm sorry but that price is just plain stupid.... Thx Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raw power Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Just had my first oil change at 2,000mi. Service Dept quoted me $70.00 but ended up charging me 132.00. Bastards... Claimed the guy at the counter didn't understand the requirements for the GT500. Tried to make me feel better by telling me at least its not a Ford GT since those are 220.00 for a change. Either way, the tech initially put in 6.5 out of the bottle but after checking the stick said it still need a tad more to hit the top marker. He had me start it for a minute and then rechecked. He ended up putting in a full 7qt. Has anyone else been told that it takes 7qts not 6.5 to top off their GT500's? Oh, and after this I will just be doing my own changes. I'm sorry but that price is just plain stupid.... Thx Jason On my first oil change, they used 7.5 quarts!!! I brought them 8 quarts and got 1/2 quart back. At first I thought someone kept a quart for themselves, but they brought me the empties. Oh btw it was a friend that owns a Goodyear, and he only charged me $11 for the change and the filter. Next time I'm bringing the filter too, he said he'd change it for free if I give him a ride after every change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Its 6.5 quarts. Any more than that, and technically you could loose a little H.P. because of oil slugging off the crankshaft as well as potental seal damage. Checking the dip stick just a few moments after running the engine will not give you an accurate gauge of the actual amount of oil in the pan because there is a significant amount of oil still sitting in the galleys and valve trains that has not made its way back down to the pan. Install only 6.5 quarts, then check the engine the next morning when the engine is cold and you will find that the stick will have oil sitting just smack dab in the middle of the hash marks or maybe just slightly higher than mid point, because it's likely that all of the previous oil did not get completely extracted out of the engine during the change over. I would also suggest that the engine is up to full operating tempature before the oil change to insure that it's in its most viscus state in order to get the most amount of oil to flow out the drain hole. I also recommend using Royal Purple oil. Its really great stuff. Check the link on their ad running at the top of the forums, you might be suprised what you see. Hope this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badsho Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I changed my own oil .... and it used almost 7 qts ... I was using the dip stick as my gauge. When I got the car brand new .. it was about 1/2 a qt of oil low .... and thought to myself .. hmmmmm ... is this motor already eating oil .. What I think it was ... the factory put in the proper amount of oil ... 6.5 ... but my oil stick said barely 1/2 qt low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonj Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Thanks guys..... I'll check it again in a bit and as long as it's between the dots, I'll leave it alone. If it's the least bit over, I'll drain it a bit. As always, yall are awesome, have a great weekend! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I changed my own oil .... and it used almost 7 qts ... I was using the dip stick as my gauge. When I got the car brand new .. it was about 1/2 a qt of oil low .... and thought to myself .. hmmmmm ... is this motor already eating oil .. What I think it was ... the factory put in the proper amount of oil ... 6.5 ... but my oil stick said barely 1/2 qt low. Just for the sake of clarity, a properly filled engine will show oil almost dead center between the hash marks that are embossed on the stick. If the oil is at the top or above the hash marks, then the engine is slightly overfilled. The factory calls for 6.5 quarts because they factor in a .5 quart varance to compensate for the oil that really never gets out of the engine during an oil change (which is about a .5 quart). So technically, you could say that the engine really operates on 7 quarts of oil which is right for a Supercharged engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonj Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Just for the sake of clarity, a properly filled engine will show oil almost dead center between the hash marks that are embossed on the stick. If the oil is at the top or above the hash marks, then the engine is slightly overfilled. The factory calls for 6.5 quarts because they factor in a .5 quart varance to compensate for the oil that really never gets out of the engine during an oil change (which is about a .5 quart). So technically, you could say that the engine really operates on 7 quarts of oil which is right for a Supercharged engine. Just rechecked... It was filled right to the base of the top dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raw power Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Just for the sake of clarity, a properly filled engine will show oil almost dead center between the hash marks that are embossed on the stick. If the oil is at the top or above the hash marks, then the engine is slightly overfilled. The factory calls for 6.5 quarts because they factor in a .5 quart varance to compensate for the oil that really never gets out of the engine during an oil change (which is about a .5 quart). So technically, you could say that the engine really operates on 7 quarts of oil which is right for a Supercharged engine. I just re-checked mine, (checked it at Goodyear after the change and it was right on), and you're correct it is overfilled now. What is the easiest way to drain a half quart w/o making a huge mess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I just re-checked mine, (checked it at Goodyear after the change and it was right on), and you're correct it is overfilled now. What is the easiest way to drain a half quart w/o making a huge mess? You could spent about $65.00 bucks and buy yourself a pump type fluid evacuator, which is a really handly thing to have around the garage BTW, or just go buy a fast lube type place and ask them to do it for you with theirs. The FE comes with a narrow tube that you can shove down the stick tube and suck out the oil from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I just re-checked mine, (checked it at Goodyear after the change and it was right on), and you're correct it is overfilled now. What is the easiest way to drain a half quart w/o making a huge mess? Take it back where it was done & have them do it. PLus I would ask for money back since it was their mistake & they over filled it. (PS: always read the owners manual for fluid capacities) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyDude Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Just had my first oil change at 2,000mi. Service Dept quoted me $70.00 but ended up charging me 132.00. Bastards... Claimed the guy at the counter didn't understand the requirements for the GT500. Tried to make me feel better by telling me at least its not a Ford GT since those are 220.00 for a change. Either way, the tech initially put in 6.5 out of the bottle but after checking the stick said it still need a tad more to hit the top marker. He had me start it for a minute and then rechecked. He ended up putting in a full 7qt. Has anyone else been told that it takes 7qts not 6.5 to top off their GT500's? Oh, and after this I will just be doing my own changes. I'm sorry but that price is just plain stupid.... Thx Jason Checked with our parts department and LIST is $7 quart. So figure up to 7 quarts which would be $49 RETAIL plus the filter, labor & disposal, and I'd say $132 is a major rip off! I think the guy that supposedly didn't know what he was doing actually did know. He just didn't know he was suppose to add the rip off upcharge just because it was a Shelby! Hmmmm.....$49 oil (retail) and $83 filter, disposal and labor!!! So what's that, about a $50+ charge just because it's a Shelby???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raw power Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 You could spent about $65.00 bucks and buy yourself a pump type fluid evacuator, which is a really handly thing to have around the garage BTW, or just go buy a fast lube type place and ask them to do it for you with theirs. The FE comes with a narrow tube that you can shove down the stick tube and suck out the oil from there. Thanks for the advice Take it back where it was done & have them do it. PLus I would ask for money back since it was their mistake & they over filled it. (PS: always read the owners manual for fluid capacities) I told them 7qtrs. is what it would take, that's why I was shocked to get 1/2 qrt. back of the 8 I gave them. I thought one of the service guys was starting a collection of "good" oil to sell on the side I think they would get mad if I asked for money back when they only charged me $11 for the change and filter....was a friend that owns Goodyear and I want to keep him as a friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shel-b001 Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Its 6.5 quarts. Any more than that, and technically you could loose a little H.P. because of oil slugging off the crankshaft as well as potental seal damage. Checking the dip stick just a few moments after running the engine will not give you an accurate gauge of the actual amount of oil in the pan because there is a significant amount of oil still sitting in the gallerys and valve trains that has not made its way back down to the pan. Install only 6.5 quarts, then check the engine the next morning when the engine is cold and you will find that the stick will have oil sitting just smack dab in the middle of the hash marks or maybe just slightly higher than mid point, because it's likely that all of the previous oil did not get completely extracted out of the engine during the change over. I would also suggest that the engine is up to full operating tempature before the oil change to insure that it's in its most viscus state in order to get the most amount of oil to flow out the drain hole. I also recommend using Royal Purple oil. Its really great stuff. Check the link on their ad running at the top of the forums, you might be suprised what you see. Hope this helps... What Royal Purple are you using in your Shelby? I have 5w-30 in all my classics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badsho Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Checked with our parts department and LIST is $7 quart. So figure up to 7 quarts which would be $49 RETAIL plus the filter, labor & disposal, and I'd say $132 is a major rip off! I think the guy that supposedly didn't know what he was doing actually did know. He just didn't know he was suppose to add the rip off upcharge just because it was a Shelby! Hmmmm.....$49 oil (retail) and $83 filter, disposal and labor!!! So what's that, about a $50+ charge just because it's a Shelby???? ya ... get your facts in order and go back to the dealer. I am trying to remember what cost was for me on my oil ... Obviously ... MAKE ABSOULTY SURE U USE THE FoMoCo oil thats recommend for the car. Any place else than a Ford store .. wont have it ... Back to the price ... i think the post said $130 for the change ... thats pure BS ..... go back ... tell em what the oil cost and add in the filter ... its a stock item ... maybe $10 bucks top .. MAX and thats high .... I dont know what the retail price is .... Give em hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sicilianjg Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Its 6.5 quarts. Any more than that, and technically you could loose a little H.P. because of oil slugging off the crankshaft as well as potental seal damage. Checking the dip stick just a few moments after running the engine will not give you an accurate gauge of the actual amount of oil in the pan because there is a significant amount of oil still sitting in the gallerys and valve trains that has not made its way back down to the pan. Install only 6.5 quarts, then check the engine the next morning when the engine is cold and you will find that the stick will have oil sitting just smack dab in the middle of the hash marks or maybe just slightly higher than mid point, because it's likely that all of the previous oil did not get completely extracted out of the engine during the change over. I would also suggest that the engine is up to full operating tempature before the oil change to insure that it's in its most viscus state in order to get the most amount of oil to flow out the drain hole. I also recommend using Royal Purple oil. Its really great stuff. Check the link on their ad running at the top of the forums, you might be suprised what you see. Hope this helps... I had my first oil change at the Ford dealer where I bought it. They gave me a free oil change and the tech which I know is a personal friend of mine told me it took 7 quarts. We have a Mustang Club out here which our dealer sponsors us, has been since 1964. Royal Purple DOES NOT have 5W-50 oil, so which Royal Purple oil you are using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008 Shelby Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Son of GT, are you running 10w40 Royal Purple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 What Royal Purple are you using in your Shelby? I have 5w-30 in all my classics Son of GT, are you running 10w40 Royal Purple? I'm running 10w40 Royal Purple with a K&N 2010 filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2008 Shelby Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I'm running 10w40 Royal Purple with a K&N 2010 filter. Excellent stuff! My plan as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlangvardt Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I use the factory recommended weight, I buy Castrol at Autozone, 7 quarts, and take it to Ford. They only charge about $16.00 for the change including the filter and return the unused 1/2 quart. I think Autozone charges $5.00 a quart, and the Ford service department uses the same oil but charges about $7.00 a quart. When I take my 2000 Lightning in I take my own Mobile 1 and they never say anything about bringing my own oil, and always charge about the same $16.00 including filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I use the factory recommended weight, I buy Castrol at Autozone, 7 quarts, and take it to Ford. They only charge about $16.00 for the change including the filter and return the unused 1/2 quart. I think Autozone charges $5.00 a quart, and the Ford service department uses the same oil but charges about $7.00 a quart. When I take my 2000 Lightning in I take my own Mobile 1 and they never say anything about bringing my own oil, and always charge about the same $16.00 including filter. A Ford dealer I went to quoted me $125.00 for the complete oil change (I guess Shelby GT-500 equals gold to these guys). I then too went to Auto Zone and purchased the oil for $4.59 a quart and purchased a K&N 2010 oil filter for $11.99. Keep in mind that the quality of the filter is very important. If you let them install the basic $5.00 Motorcraft filter you are doing your car an injustice. Go with either the K&N or the Motorcraft Ford Racing oil filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlangvardt Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 The bottom line is if you use the Ford recommended weight of oil and Ford recommeded oil filter and the Ford dealer changes the oil, the maintenance is in the Ford data base there can't be any questions if for some God awful reason there is a warrenty claim for engine damage. I know of one Crown Vic. owner who had to pay for his own engine repair because he used the wrong weight of oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcthorne Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 A Ford dealer I went to quoted me $125.00 for the complete oil change (I guess Shelby GT-500 equals gold to these guys). I then too went to Auto Zone and purchased the oil for $4.59 a quart and purchased a K&N 2010 oil filter for $11.99. Keep in mind that the quality of the filter is very important. If you let them install the basic $5.00 Motorcraft filter you are doing your car an injustice. Go with either the K&N or the Motorcraft Ford Racing oil filter. Dude, you could not be more incorrect about the filter. What makes you think the K&N is better for your car? The Ford Racing filter is NOT better for day to day driving. It is a racing filter designed for higher oil pressures (heavier wall can) and better oil flow at the cost of less filtration (the micron rating in the racing filter is larger than the FL820S) The Motorcraft FL-820S has synthetic media, a proper pressure relief valve (bypass) and a silicone anti-drainback valve to keep the filter full of oil and oil in the engine galleries when the engine is shut down. They are made by Purolator for Ford and are built to standards higher than Purolators own base filter. Not quite up to PureOne filter media but a very good filter. They are also available for very reasonable prices due to huge VOLUME and marketing. Stick with the OEM Motorcraft FL-820S filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Dude, you could not be more incorrect about the filter. What makes you think the K&N is better for your car? The Ford Racing filter is NOT better for day to day driving. It is a racing filter designed for higher oil pressures (heavier wall can) and better oil flow at the cost of less filtration (the micron rating in the racing filter is larger than the FL820S) The Motorcraft FL-820S has synthetic media, a proper pressure relief valve (bypass) and a silicone anti-drainback valve to keep the filter full of oil and oil in the engine galleries when the engine is shut down. They are made by Purolator for Ford and are built to standards higher than Purolators own base filter. Not quite up to PureOne filter media but a very good filter. They are also available for very reasonable prices due to huge VOLUME and marketing. Stick with the OEM Motorcraft FL-820S filter. I beg to differ...the K&N/Ford Racing keeps the oil from settling down into the pan. BTW a Ford dealer recommended and pointed out that they use the racing filter vs. the stock for their services. Are they wrong too. Don't get me wrong, we all want and appreciate input and want to do the right thing for our cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcthorne Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I beg to differ...the K&N/Ford Racing keeps the oil from settling down into the pan. BTW a Ford dealer recommended and pointed out that they use the racing filter vs. the stock for their services. Are they wrong too. Don't get me wrong, we all want and appreciate input and want to do the right thing for our cars. Just because a shop uses it does not mean they have any idea what is inside the can. They likely were told by someone or marketing group that it was 'better'. And it is, just not better at what matters for your car on the street. It also has a higher profit margin for the service ticket. If you want to know why something is the way it is, follow the $$. You are correct that the K&N and Ford Racing filters both contain anti-drainback valves. The K&N one is not silicone the last time I looked at its specs. It was some other type of polymer, Buna I think but it has been a while. I am not an expert on filtration by any means, go look this stuff up yourself if you wish. I did and found out what works for MY needs. Was just trying to save you some $$ that was not doing anything for your application. Better depends on the intended use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonj Posted March 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Just a quick update... Spoke with a manager who was out when I had the oil change this weekend. After sharing some of my frustration with the price, he promised to look into the situation for me. I got a call back from him, and they have given me a $40.00 credit which goes a long way to fixing the situation. Apparently, the main issue is that they are charging just under 13.00 per qt! <sarcasm> But thats ok since the GT 40's are 220.00 per oil change... </sarcasm> Either way, I will be getting a pissed off customer discount from now on. While it was a hassle, I have to admit they have the best service department in town and have provided a special level of service because of the GT500. Thanks for the help guys! I still need to have .5qt drained but will likely go to a small shop down the street so I don't need to drive all the way across town again! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6-Speed Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Just a quick update... Spoke with a manager who was out when I had the oil change this weekend. After sharing some of my frustration with the price, he promised to look into the situation for me. I got a call back from him, and they have given me a $40.00 credit which goes a long way to fixing the situation. Apparently, the main issue is that they are charging just under 13.00 per qt! <sarcasm> But thats ok since the GT 40's are 220.00 per oil change... </sarcasm> Either way, I will be getting a pissed off customer discount from now on. While it was a hassle, I have to admit they have the best service department in town and have provided a special level of service because of the GT500. Thanks for the help guys! I still need to have .5qt drained but will likely go to a small shop down the street so I don't need to drive all the way across town again! Jason I thought I would add my 2c about oil changes. I typically change my own oil. I seem to have issues after the few times that a dealer changed my oil on one of my other cars. For such a simple procedure, the dealers can't seem to get it right for me. My Honda Accord twice was over-filled; not by just a little but by nearly a quart. They over-tightend the drain plug and filter to the extent that I had to use extreme measures to get them loose. I was offered a courtesy oil change on my Shelby at 5000 miles - I don't think so. I'll be changing it myself using 5W-50 Motorcraft oil as recommended by Ford and a Motorcraft FL-820S, which is what's installed on the car from the factory; I can get one at Walmart for less than $4.00. Until Castrol or anyone else comes up with a product that meets the Ford standard WSS-M2C931-B as specified in the owner's manual, I'll stick with Motorcraft; Castrol's 5W-50 Syntech meets WSS-M2C931-A. I don't know what the difference is and it's probably not a big deal but I'd rather err on the safe side. Ford claims you're good to go if the oil level is between the lower and upper holes on the dipstick, but I probably wouldn't fill it past the top of the cross-hatch area to avoid over-filling. Only check the oil level after the engine has been shut down for a-while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 I'm amazed too, 6-Speed, the failure of some dealerships to follow the factory prescribed maintenance schedule. If they can't do it, who can? Simple stuff... I'll do myself. More complex... I'll learn what is SUPPOSED TO BE DONE, and watch them do it correctly! I've had too many instances of dealers screwing simple stuff up to write a book! WHEN I get my GT500, you better believe I'll watch my local dealer!! Trust but verify!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthedealeroff Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 I thought I would add my 2c about oil changes. I typically change my own oil. I seem to have issues after the few times that a dealer changed my oil on one of my other cars. For such a simple procedure, the dealers can't seem to get it right for me. My Honda Accord twice was over-filled; not by just a little but by nearly a quart. They over-tightend the drain plug and filter to the extent that I had to use extreme measures to get them loose. I was offered a courtesy oil change on my Shelby at 5000 miles - I don't think so. I'll be changing it myself using 5W-50 Motorcraft oil as recommended by Ford and a Motorcraft FL-820S, which is what's installed on the car from the factory; I can get one at Walmart for less than $4.00. Until Castrol or anyone else comes up with a product that meets the Ford standard WSS-M2C931-B as specified in the owner's manual, I'll stick with Motorcraft; Castrol's 5W-50 Syntech meets WSS-M2C931-A. I don't know what the difference is and it's probably not a big deal but I'd rather err on the safe side. Ford claims you're good to go if the oil level is between the lower and upper holes on the dipstick, but I probably wouldn't fill it past the top of the cross-hatch area to avoid over-filling. Only check the oil level after the engine has been shut down for a-while. If you want to blow seals put in 7 quarts of oil. This car calls for 6.5 Quarts period. Use K&N Oil filter or Ford Racing Filter (most dealers don't carry them) Castrol Syntec is fine...the best oil to use for any car is AmsOil...period. Buy your own oil and filter, take it to the dealer and most of them will charge only labor of between $17.00 to $20.00 for the complete change with your own product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Checked with our parts department and LIST is $7 quart. So figure up to 7 quarts which would be $49 RETAIL plus the filter, labor & disposal, and I'd say $132 is a major rip off! I think the guy that supposedly didn't know what he was doing actually did know. He just didn't know he was suppose to add the rip off upcharge just because it was a Shelby! Hmmmm.....$49 oil (retail) and $83 filter, disposal and labor!!! So what's that, about a $50+ charge just because it's a Shelby???? +1 You are VERY right, Shelby Dude. When I went back to the selling dealer for my complimentary first oil change, the service ticket came to $100 (even though it was in fact free). This is absolutely, unquestionably, unbelievably stupid. The idea is to get the customer to keep coming back to the dealer. There is no way a $100 oil change will do that for most customers. Even those who don't change it themselves (be sure to recycle old oil!) will go somewhere else after they are charged that figure the first time. How shortsighted can you get? Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. Oh, by the way, it's DUMB as dirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03reptile Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Just had my first oil change at 2,000mi. Service Dept quoted me $70.00 but ended up charging me 132.00. Bastards... Claimed the guy at the counter didn't understand the requirements for the GT500. Tried to make me feel better by telling me at least its not a Ford GT since those are 220.00 for a change. Either way, the tech initially put in 6.5 out of the bottle but after checking the stick said it still need a tad more to hit the top marker. He had me start it for a minute and then rechecked. He ended up putting in a full 7qt. Has anyone else been told that it takes 7qts not 6.5 to top off their GT500's? Oh, and after this I will just be doing my own changes. I'm sorry but that price is just plain stupid.... Thx Jason This subject has been discussed, ad-nausium, in reference to the 03-04 Terminators. Same issue with the dip stick showing not full after a 6.5 quart oil change w/filter. The dip stick is NOT that accurate and you should NOT put more oil into the vehicle then Ford recommends, PERIOD. The engineers who built this engine know whats best, so stay with Ford's recommendations and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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