MACHMAN Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I believe I read this in another thread, looking for input. Is it true that one way T/C helps control wheel spin is to retard/reduce Timing, A/F, ETC..... With that being said, my question, if we launch with T/C on, are we getting full use of potential HP/TQ, or are we missing out on power because the T/C brain is limiting power output? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 MACHMAN - If the tires stick, the TC does nothing. It only reduces the power when it senses more than a certain amount of slip when compared to the front tires. My '04 Cobra would still let the tires spin a bit before backing off the power, but only if the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead. I assume the GT500 TC does the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I am not sure if it messes with the A/F etc. but I know it does work the brakes. If you leave TC on when on a dyno it won't work because the front tires are not turning so the brakes try to lock up the rears too. Also on a road track the TC will heat the heck out of the brakes because it uses them to help keep you from spinning or sliding. Will it reduce performance??? Depends on the driver - It may slow you down a bit on a drag or road track if you know what you are doing and drive really well. For the average driver I would bet on a road track it may actually save you time by avoiding a spin if you get on the gas too hard coming out of a corner....likewise at the strip. It could hurt you but if you really get on it and break the tires loose it could help you in the end. I would bet with stock tires there is very little to gain with the TC off at the drag strip (yes some but not a lot). As you get into the better tires and susp. set up for the track then I think you probably do lose a bit on the strip too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 MACHMAN -If the tires stick, the TC does nothing. It only reduces the power when it senses more than a certain amount of slip when compared to the front tires. My '04 Cobra would still let the tires spin a bit before backing off the power, but only if the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead. I assume the GT500 TC does the same thing. The 07 does'nt have that aggressive stall that the 04 does. It is much smoother. Sometimes you don't realize its working honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrichard Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 My recollection of a couple of magazine tests is they picked up .1 sec in their 0-60 times with TC off...so, if you're a good driver you're losing some by using TC. But turning it off also increases the risk of getting into trouble on the street...so, to me it's a moot point. The decrease in quickness is marginal and the increase in safety is huge. And it operates in pretty transparent way. With it on, the car will still spin the tires enough to make me feel manly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 It depends on how you look at it. The factory has actually installed a protocol in the ECM to supposedly help you launch the car with the most optimal engine/traction combination. Someone, somewhere once called it the Kenny Bernstein protocol. You rev the engine to 3200 hundred R.P.M. and hold it there for a moment or two before you are supposed to completely dump the clutch. The ECM is programmed to make the necessary adjustments and corrections to launch the car like a pro would; at least that's the premise anyway. I've tried a few times, but without a time slip, it's difficult to know if it's better or worse than just turning off the TC and doing an "old school" launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Son - That's an interesting bit of information. I'm not being confrontational, but I'm a bit skeptical Ford would put in a set up that could only be used for racing in a street car. Could they do it? Sure. But it seems like the lawyers would have a field day with that. Maybe it is a Coletti legacy item. I'd be curious how that got snuck in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACHMAN Posted March 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 It depends on how you look at it. The factory has actually installed a protocol in the ECM to supposedly help you launch the car with the most optimal engine/traction combination. Someone, somewhere once called it the Kenny Bernstein protocol. You rev the engine to 3200 hundred R.P.M. and hold it there for a moment or two before you are supposed to completely dump the clutch. The ECM is programmed to make the necessary adjustments and corrections to launch the car like a pro would; at least that's the premise anyway. I've tried a few times, but without a time slip, it's difficult to know if it's better or worse than just turning off the TC and doing an "old school" launch. I can't wait for nice weather, so I can practice "launching" (its been a long winter). I also have a GO vert, how do you know your car #12?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I can't wait for nice weather, so I can practice "launching" (its been a long winter). I also have a GO vert, how do you know your car #12?? The first fifty cars have specific VIN numbers assigned to them. My VIN is 0000012. My OASIS report shows that it was also the 12th car built. It was released from the line June 14th, 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Oh B Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 The TC will intervene by reducing timing, reducing fuel, applying brakes, and adjusting A/F ratio (to keep the supercharged engine from self destructing). A good driver with good traction will be able to accelerate quicker with the TC off. While not a GT500, long ago I ran my 2000 Mustang GT 5-speed coupe at Seattle Int'l Raceway's 1/4 mile dragstrip one day with several runs with TC on, then several runs with TC off. Best ET with it off was 13.85. Best ET with it on was 14.70. That's a whole lotta power being zapped out of that little 260hp car (a huge .85 seconds is a lot of hp lost - roughly 40hp). Imagine what happens in a 500hp car! When Motor Trend magazine was testing the GT500's last year, they got a lousy 13.10 ET in the 1/4 mile when they were using the TC. MM&FF magazine's hot-shoe Evan Smith tested a GT500 last year with the TC off and ran 12.25 in the 1/4 mile. That's a huge .85 second lost because of TC intervention (I'd estimate about 120hp lost during Motor Trend's test with the TC on!). So, yes, TC reduced power significantly. That's how it keeps traction under control. On the street, use TC most of the time. At the track, never use TC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 B)--> QUOTE(Five Oh B @ Mar 9 2007, 02:21 PM) 112314[/snapback] The TC will intervene by reducing timing, reducing fuel, applying brakes, and adjusting A/F ratio (to keep the supercharged engine from self destructing). A good driver with good traction will be able to accelerate quicker with the TC off. While not a GT500, long ago I ran my 2000 Mustang GT 5-speed coupe at Seattle Int'l Raceway's 1/4 mile dragstrip one day with several runs with TC on, then several runs with TC off. Best ET with it off was 13.85. Best ET with it on was 14.70. That's a whole lotta power being zapped out of that little 260hp car (a huge .85 seconds is a lot of hp lost - roughly 40hp). Imagine what happens in a 500hp car! When Motor Trend magazine was testing the GT500's last year, they got a lousy 13.10 ET in the 1/4 mile when they were using the TC. MM&FF magazine's hot-shoe Evan Smith tested a GT500 last year with the TC off and ran 12.25 in the 1/4 mile. That's a huge .85 second lost because of TC intervention (I'd estimate about 120hp lost during Motor Trend's test with the TC on!). So, yes, TC reduced power significantly. That's how it keeps traction under control. On the street, use TC most of the time. At the track, never use TC! No, You sould be using the time that Evan got with the TC on to make a good comparison. IIRC he went like 12.68 +/- 10th with it on. (I do not have the artivle by me at the momment) The 07's TC is much smoother then the previous gen. (99-04) It uses the TBW system to control it now.. Your not kissing the steering wheel anymore when it engages.. :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VNMOUS1 Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Son -That's an interesting bit of information. I'm not being confrontational, but I'm a bit skeptical Ford would put in a set up that could only be used for racing in a street car. Could they do it? Sure. But it seems like the lawyers would have a field day with that. Maybe it is a Coletti legacy item. I'd be curious how that got snuck in. Actually it's true. The SVT guys actually referred to it as "launch control" rather than traction control. It modulates the throttle (by wire) through a combination of timing, fuel delivery and literally the level of electronic input for the throttle itself. The average Joe will run (generally) slightly quicker and more consistant times with it ON. Most time in an ET on this car is lost in the first 60'. It simply won't hook up with stock tires. Put slicks on it and that's a different story. Most owners haven't felt it kick in because they (a) haven't really romped on it and/or (B) the romped on it a little and the wheel hop made them take their foot out of it. Correct the wheel hop....cruise down the road in 2nd....nail it so you get massive wheelSPIN (not hop) and I promise you, you'll feel the TC work. It's like someone pulls the plug on it. You feel a combo of the butt squirm these cars have as the limited slip works....all the while the TC begins modulating the throttle. If you have an aftermarket tune with a raised limiter, you'll wanna leave the TC on. The last thing you want to do with this motor is have it bouncing off the limiter at 7k. BAD idea for you. GOOD idea for Ford Racing, who offers the complete engine in their new catalogue for 15k. bj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Actually it's true. The SVT guys actually referred to it as "launch control" rather than traction control. It modulates the throttle (by wire) through a combination of timing, fuel delivery and literally the level of electronic input for the throttle itself. The average Joe will run (generally) slightly quicker and more consistant times with it ON. Most time in an ET on this car is lost in the first 60'. It simply won't hook up with stock tires. Put slicks on it and that's a different story. Most owners haven't felt it kick in because they (a) haven't really romped on it and/or (B) the romped on it a little and the wheel hop made them take their foot out of it. Correct the wheel hop....cruise down the road in 2nd....nail it so you get massive wheelSPIN (not hop) and I promise you, you'll feel the TC work. It's like someone pulls the plug on it. You feel a combo of the butt squirm these cars have as the limited slip works....all the while the TC begins modulating the throttle. If you have an aftermarket tune with a raised limiter, you'll wanna leave the TC on. The last thing you want to do with this motor is have it bouncing off the limiter at 7k. BAD idea for you. GOOD idea for Ford Racing, who offers the complete engine in their new catalogue for 15k. bj Yup, that's exactly it. Thanks for covering it. Three C's, give it a try, its a blast! I'm out with launch contol on, 5..,4..,3..,2.., ENGINE UP TO SPEED ,..1. Bye, bye! :burnout: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceman Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Actually it's true. The SVT guys actually referred to it as "launch control" rather than traction control. It modulates the throttle (by wire) through a combination of timing, fuel delivery and literally the level of electronic input for the throttle itself. The average Joe will run (generally) slightly quicker and more consistant times with it ON. Most time in an ET on this car is lost in the first 60'. It simply won't hook up with stock tires. Put slicks on it and that's a different story. Most owners haven't felt it kick in because they (a) haven't really romped on it and/or (B) the romped on it a little and the wheel hop made them take their foot out of it. Correct the wheel hop....cruise down the road in 2nd....nail it so you get massive wheelSPIN (not hop) and I promise you, you'll feel the TC work. It's like someone pulls the plug on it. You feel a combo of the butt squirm these cars have as the limited slip works....all the while the TC begins modulating the throttle. If you have an aftermarket tune with a raised limiter, you'll wanna leave the TC on. The last thing you want to do with this motor is have it bouncing off the limiter at 7k. BAD idea for you. GOOD idea for Ford Racing, who offers the complete engine in their new catalogue for 15k. bj I still have stock tires and susp. on my car with the stage 2 kit. I was going to put on LCA's in this warm weather we're getting now and get the tint done but I coulm't pass up the time to drive so no work all play this week end. I did get out to a nice vacant parking lot and practice a few launches. I did a couple with the TC on and in my current state it helps a lot because when i do it with the TC off "I get rubber in all 4 gears" as the beach boys say. Granted I can feather it and not but the point is if you get on it hard you do break the stock tires loose easily. I'll be going over to Steve Schmitt's building later this summer and doing a few launches on his 8th mile test track where they practice with the proStock drag cars just to see what it's like there too but I am fully expecting to need to get some drag radials in order to have any hope of decent times on a strip. The nice thing is I had zero wheel hop even on hard launches. I've only had minor wheel ho twice and I really have to wonder if that doesn't have a lot to do with it being a vert...then again it could be my fat 290 lb self helping hold it down anyway TC is a help and on this car it doesn't shut you down - it just regulates the power to where it needs to be....I still want to get better with out it but I think I need the H/W not just practice. You should see the burn out marks from when i tried to get rubber in all 4 gears. You can see where the shifts are and tell I let off the gas at the end because I was near the end of the lot. White smoke all over. It was fun stuff. I had to get my neighbor and take him back there to show him later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Oval Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 The nice thing is I had zero wheel hop even on hard launches. I've only had minor wheel ho twice and I really have to wonder if that doesn't have a lot to do with it being a vert...then again it could be my fat 290 lb self helping hold it down I don't think it matters if it's a convertible. I have the twin car to yours & I have wheel hop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1fever Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Actually the vert has better weight distribution due to the extra few hundred pounds over the wheels. Its listed in the specs. Same thing with folks that bought the shaker 1k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.