2012 Torsen?

[BDrool]

Tob,

I pretty much agree. There isn't anyone application to encompass all the possibilities. If somebody wants to drag, then build it to drag. just don't expect a lot on the track. Likewise, if someone wants to be on the track, then build it for the track, just don't expect really quick times in the 1/4.

 

These cars are well rounded for both but can be modded to excell in one or the other. While some mods may work well in many applications, specific performance mods, i.e. differential changes, will not in high expectation situations.

[TrakRat]

Well put, Bdrool.

 

Tob, AGAIN, you stated that the Torsen was not suited for clutch dumping, and implied that more or less is what this car's purpose was.

 

I stated all the other parts that are not suited for that as well. Not rocket science.

 

My point is AS A FACTORY INSTALLED PART the Torsen is a terrific option TO COMPLIMENT THE REST OF THE CAR as it was designed. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

 

After you start modding, all bets are off.

[Tob]

Well put, Bdrool.

 

Tob, AGAIN, you stated that the Torsen was not suited for clutch dumping, and implied that more or less is what this car's purpose was.

 

I implied nothing of the sort. The statement I made, "There are better options out there when it comes to a heavy car with a lot of power that is likely to see a clutch dump or two" was specifically in regards to the use of a Torsen in a drag-type environment. As to the car's purpose, I have absolutely implied using a differential that suits the intended use, be it drag, road course, autocross, or simply street driving.

 

I stated all the other parts that are not suited for that as well. Not rocket science.

Suited for abuse or not, there probably isn't a GT500 owner in existence that hasn't done something that the vehicle wasn't designed for. But I digress, the crux of the thread relates to the 8.8" axle as installed in a GT500 and certain aftermarket differential units that are designed to fit but may use(age) specific.

 

My point is AS A FACTORY INSTALLED PART the Torsen is a terrific option TO COMPLIMENT THE REST OF THE CAR as it was designed. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Your last statement is the first I've seen from anywhere in this thread. I'll go back and read all of your posts again, but I don't recall you talking in terms of the Torsen "to compliment the rest of the car as it was designed" before. You've mentioned you like it in your '96 Cobra just as I've mentioned that I like it in my '90 MM equipped coupe. But as it was designed? I spent some time at Ford.com's website, specifically looking at pdf download of the 2011 dealer brochure. While it talks about using the car at the "track" it doesn't single out either road racing or drag racing. I agree though, on its face, the car (in SVT PP form) has been equipped in apparent attempt to cater to the road racing crowd. Yet there is a huge drag following with this car. So to state, or imply, that the car was intended to be used on a track that actually has a turn or two as opposed to a simple straight line is a bit presumptuous, no?

 

Let me put it this way. If pushing this car to the limit on a road course was your only intention (as you have stated you desire to do) a Torsen T2 or T2R should suit you well. But for the remaining contingent that does "clutch dump" whether on the street or at the strip - I'd look elsewhere. Can you "grasp" that?

 

After you start modding, all bets are off.

 

[TrakRat]

I grasp it very well, Tob.

 

I strongly urge you to review the entire first page of this thread.... and.... oh yes, the TITLE: 2012 Torsen

We have all along been talking about it being available for 2012 and then the possibilities of retrofitting it to the 2010-11. I fully understand when modding your car the possibilities are endless but when you are assembling the car for mass market you can't outfit with a spool if you intend to market the car by bragging about its handling prowess. The Torsen if offered from Ford would not be a detriment to the GT500 in ANY category any worse than the existing LSD, whereas a spool or a locker would in many cases. That is the entire basis of my point.

 

And NO, it is not presumptuous to think that most owners will be hitting turns in the GT500. That's why they call it a SVT performance package and put 265 front tires on it, sport mode on the TC, stiffer sway bars, lower suspension, and brag about the 1.1 g's it can generate in a turn.

 

Anyway, I digress. Do whatever makes you happy.

[Tob]

I grasp it very well, Tob.

 

I strongly urge you to review the entire first page of this thread.... and.... oh yes, the TITLE: 2012 Torsen

 

Good to see you can read the title. Go back and follow the thread. Hint - it goes beyond the title.

 

We have all along been talking about it being available for 2012 and then the possibilities of retrofitting it to the 2010-11.

Briefly, there was curiousity as to whether it might come on the '12. The thread then moved on. As to retrofitting, yeah, I've been there as well and so have you. To use your own words, not rocket science. Now let's move on.

 

I fully understand when modding your car the possibilities are endless but when you are assembling the car for mass market you can't outfit with a spool if you intend to market the car by bragging about its handling prowess. The Torsen if offered from Ford would not be a detriment to the GT500 in ANY category any worse than the existing LSD, whereas a spool or a locker would in many cases. That is the entire basis of my point.

This is (yet again) the first time you've uttered the word "spool" in this thread. This a new point you're making and that's fine. I don't see anyone making the case for Ford to install a spool on a street car, so you can nix that supposition. Your use of the word "ANY" is where I find fault. The flaw to your point is simple - the Torsen is not a good "across the board" differential for the GT500. The new Boss - absolutely. But not the GT500. We really don't need to go over why it isn't a good choice in a shock loading application, do we?

 

And NO, it is not presumptuous to think that most owners will be hitting turns in the GT500.

[sigh] That isn't what I said. Here, I'll quote my statement for you again..."So to state, or imply, that the car was intended to be used on a track that actually has a turn or two as opposed to a simple straight line is a bit presumptuous, no?" The statement was made in the context as a response to a statement YOU made, that "AS A FACTORY INSTALLED PART the Torsen is a terrific option TO COMPLIMENT THE REST OF THE CAR as it was designed." That implies that the car wasn't designed to be used on the dragstrip. I'd argue to the contrary, that design was drag inclusive, as evidenced by the Traction-Lok differential installed by the factory, just as the Boss 302 can have a Torsen installed by the factory thus showing what Ford had in mind for it.

 

That's why they call it a SVT performance package and put 265 front tires on it, sport mode on the TC, stiffer sway bars, lower suspension, and brag about the 1.1 g's it can generate in a turn.

Oh, is that why?

 

I've never argued that the car couldn't be used to actually turn on a track. If you read each post thoroughly you'd see what I have said previously. Here..."I agree though, on its face, the car (in SVT PP form) has been equipped in apparent attempt to cater to the road racing crowd." That was one post ago. Funny how Ford (when introducing the 2011 SVT PP), along with comments on reduced road course times, talks about quarter mile times. Here's one of many...

 

While we did not independently instrument the 2011 Shelby GT-500 during our drive in the countryside of North Carolina and at VIR, Ford stated they have achieved 0-60 in 4.2 seconds in their own testing. The quarter mile comes in at 12.3 seconds at 119mph. Road holding breaks the 1G barrier at 1.02 and you can stop from 60-0 in 107 feet. Ford tested the 2011 GT-500 at VIR two weeks ago against the 2010 GT-500 and netted a 9 second faster track time.

 

From here.

 

Anyway, I digress. Do whatever makes you happy.

 

OK. I'll start by quoting Kerry Baldori the Chief engineer at SVT behind the 2011 GT500.

 

This is the bull’s-eye for me. We worked to make it a balanced sports car that not only goes fast in a straight line but also on a road course. It’s the ultimate package for enthusiasts.

From here. Again, I'm not arguing that SVT engineers didn't design the PP around better times on an oval track. They clearly did. Yet there is a reason why they didn't include the Torsen and I highly suspect it was because they know that the majority of GT500 owners don't take their cars to a road course on a regular basis (that includes a PP owner). That and the fact that they know that owners across America will most likely be thrashing the car in a straight line way before they ever take it to a track with turns.

 

I'll digress as well and get back to the topic of the Torsen differential. Carroll Smith, a highly regarded engineer and author had a few things to say regarding the Torsen. In Engineer To Win, he stated...

 

The Gleason "Torsen" diff is based upon the simple fact that a worm-and-wheel gear setup can transmit torque in one direction only. It has A LOT of parts. The worm gears are very small for the amount of torque that they will have to transmit under racing conditions and the shock loads that they will receive. The whole thing is filled with stress raisers. The worm-and-wheel is a very inefficient gear configuration at high speeds and it generats a lot of heat -- which is destructive and wastes power.

 

In Drive To Win, he stated...

The major disadvantages of the Torsen, aside from availability, are its mass and the friction involved. There are a lot of gears in there...The major loads on the worm gears in the Torsen are spreading loads. The OEM units are manufactured with a ductile iron case. Cast iron is strong in compression. It is relatively weak in tension. The ductile iron case Torsen diff, as produced by Gleason, while perfectly suitable for passenger car applications, is a basic fragmentation grenade in many racing cars - especially those featuring big tires and lots of aerodynamic download.

 

Funny how he mentioned "shock loading" in the first quote, eh? But what of Torsen? What do they have to say when queried about track failures? Here's a bit from a post within a thread over at corner-carvers.com...

 

-----Original Message-----

From:

Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 12:23 AM

To: info@torsen.com

Subject: T2-R Failures

 

Hi,

I'm currently researching new differentials for my 2006 Mustang GT for road racing for a purchase this winter and the T2-R is consistently rated as the best

for this purpose. However, it seems like there is a disturbing number of failures being reported when used with stickier race tires, sometimes failing within a

year.

The older units (pre-2004 or so) were known to be indestructable, so I'm wondering if something has changed in the design or materials, or if there

was a bad run of materials which has since been resolved. I don't mind paying a premium for performance, however, I also expect a bit more durability.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Regards,

Mike

 

Torsen's response...

 

Torsen needs to "slip" in order to work properly so we have always told folks running slicks or street legal slicks that they will do damage to the

differential when using those types of tires. The only material change has been to the internal gearing where we went to a stronger material.

 

Thanks for the question and interest in Torsen!

 

Can you finally see why a Torsen-type differential may not be the best choice in a car that is used for things other than racing on a road course and why Ford doesn't use it in the GT500?

 

 

[Tob]

Were I to consider changing to a differential that might be able to handle just about any type of application you can throw at your GT500, I'd take a strong look at the WaveTrac. It is a relatively new design that looks rather promising when considered for just about any type of use. Testing is currently being conducted for spring release of a unit for 8.8" 31 spline applications.

 

http://www.stangtv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2010-moser-expands-wavetrac-differential-line/

 

If you search, you'll find evidence that early units could fail when subjected to extreme "abuse" (~900 hp cars with repeated drag style launches). WaveTrac has continued to make design changes that hopefully result in a completely bullet proof unit. It is more expensive than a Torsen, running between $800-$900.

[TrakRat]

I had to giggle a bit at that one.

 

I'm gonna use the TOB method of arguement and say that the BOSS is more of a drag car than the GT500. Why? Well how about 4 under driven trans gears, 200 lbs lighter, 19" rear wheels, 255 front tires, 3.73 and Torsen for superior traction.

 

 

Gotta ask, has your car ever even been off the street, or am I talking to an internet bench racer?

[Tob]

I had to giggle a bit at that one.

 

I'm gonna use the TOB method of arguement and say that the BOSS is more of a drag car than the GT500. Why? Well how about 4 under driven trans gears, 200 lbs lighter, 19" rear wheels, 255 front tires, 3.73 and Torsen for superior traction.

 

 

Gotta ask, has your car ever even been off the street, or am I talking to an internet bench racer?

 

 

Cars never leave the garage :rolleyes: . Internet bench racing? I'm sorry, but I couldn't find your name listed by any sanctioning body, nor can I find any write-ups indicating that you know how to turn a wrench. But I'm impressed by your debate style. Ad hominem attacks are so in these days, huh? Got another red herring you'd like to throw in, or do you actually have a relevant link to support any of what you've said? Something like a torque rating for your beloved differential, etc. Anything beyond incessant rambling and irrelevant analogies will do...

 

ON EDIT - are you drunk?

[TrakRat]

Cars never leave the garage :rolleyes: . Internet bench racing? I'm sorry, but I couldn't find your name listed by any sanctioning body, nor can I find any write-ups indicating that you know how to turn a wrench. But I'm impressed by your debate style. Ad hominem attacks are so in these days, huh? Got another red herring you'd like to throw in, or do you actually have a relevant link to support any of what you've said? Something like a torque rating for your beloved differential, etc. Anything beyond incessant rambling and irrelevant analogies will do...

 

ON EDIT - are you drunk?

 

 

Lol, so you looked up "TrakRat" in the sanctioning bodies? Good luck sonny jim.

[Tob]

Lol, so you looked up "TrakRat" in the sanctioning bodies? Good luck sonny jim

No. I just clicked on your profile image.

 

 

Find any tech yet?

[TrakRat]

Lol. You found stig's car!

 

Hard to dig up tech on my phone at work. Keep googling, I can play this game till they lock the thread.

 

 

 

Done any DRIVING yet?

[Tob]

Lol. You found stig's car!

 

Hard to dig up tech on my phone at work. Keep googling, I can play this game till they lock the thread.

 

 

 

Done any DRIVING yet?

 

 

Sorry, I don't fist pump, yo!

[TrakRat]

I'm ovah 'ere tryin to clean my sneaks...

[Tob]

Enough. I dig the '11 in your sig. Props for the Griggs equipped Cobra as well.

 

Anybody that lives in Washington that can do a Jersey accent that well can't be all bad.

 

Tob

[TrakRat]

Thx, Tob

 

I just called Brad's Custom Auto and apparently they have a DPI Black Gold in the Mystic race car in order to handle the 650hp it throws down. He said a T2R may live a happy life in the 500 but an Eaton LSD like I had in my old GT isn't tq sensing but is easily rebuildable when it wears out. Gah, decisions.....

[Tob]

Must be nice to be close to Brad's. I've never heard a bad thing about any of their work and if I ever had to let somebody else wrench on my behalf, I'd want to be damn sure they know what they are doing. Evidence the plethora of threads at TS that deal with poor ring and pinion installations - let alone a custom differential.

 

I've followed the DPI line as I researched using one six or seven years ago, ultimately going with the T2R. I was comfortable with a worm type differential with the ~300-330hp my E303'd/Edelbrock headed/ported Cobra intake/blah blah small block puts out. If you are going to push your GT500 the same way you do your earlier Cobra, I'd carefully consider even Brad's mention of using it behind your 500+rwhp pig. I'd venture to guess that he runs a rear diff cooler and depending on frequency of use I'd also guess he services the unit at least once every year or two.

 

Apparently the BG (or "Platinum" as I believe they are now called) runs a bit on the hot side. I don't know if you knew Richard from Griggs (he no longer works there). Here's one of his posts from a few years ago...

 

The DPI Gold Track is a good diff, but like other worm gear types, it doesn't take high shock loads well. In a 9" application, it will probably need a cooler if you are using it on a road course. We use them in our 8.8"s and love them, but even in the 8.8" it builds up some good heat in a 40 minute race.

 

Response...

 

The Torsen/Tru Trac/ Gold Trac type diff is what I really want for cornering, but the shock load problems do concern me. I may be using 10" drag radials at the strip and I don't just dump the clutch, I preload before letting it out all the way. Do you think this would fall into the high shock load trouble catagory?

 

As far as heat goes, do you think there will be a problem with the Gold Trac on the street?

 

Richard...

 

NASA does standing starts a lot. One of my drivers had to have his rebuilt a few times last season, and the other has had the same dif in his car for 3 years. My answer is if you take precaution, you can make them live.

I have put a few of them in street cars and most of the time, the oil that comes out looks just like the oil that goes in. We use Redline Heavyweight Shockproof, it's the stuff that looks like tomato sauce.

 

Then a response from DPI...

 

Our Black Gold differentials have been rated up to 700+ horsepower and 650lbs torque so far. We have been making them since 1991 and they are race proven to say the least. One thing that raises some concern in my mind is that it is a maintenance item. The hard core racing guys send them in, or service them on their own every 8-12 races. They run on the hot side because of the preload which is why they can be touchy, the preload will need to be reset periodically which requires taking the differential apart. From the sound of your email I take it that you plan on it being a street car that occaisionally sees some track time.

 

If you don't like the idea of doing maintenance on the unit we are now offering a 9" street differential that doesn't have the same maintenance requirements because we don't put any preload on it. It runs much better and is great for drag racing, but not autocross. Since the differential senses torque the way it does the power will be sent to the tire that is in the air, so if you go around a turn hard and lift the tires on the side they will spin and the tire on the ground will just coast. That is why we put preload on to trick them.

 

From here

 

From DPI's installation instructions...

 

5. We suggest you build a set of checker tools to periodically verify the preload of your unit see Fig. 1 & 2, you can make these from a set of old axles. Use a standard type clicker torque wrench at the end of Tool #2. The range of brake away torque should be as follows: 1/2 tight unit: 90 to 110 lbs. 3/4 tight unit: 110 to 120 lbs. Full tight Unit: 125 to 135 lbs.

CAUTION: break away torque should never exceed 140 lbs.

 

6. To extend the life of your unit, you should change the oil approximately every 250 laps. If the preload drops below 80 lbs. the unit should be sent in for service, or take it apart, inspect, clean, and readjust preload.

 

7. If you are running a preloaded unit and begin to experience a loose condition under entry, make sure to check the breakaway torque, this is an indication that the Platinum Track might be in need of service.

 

All of the above is why I'm interested to see if the WaveTrac I referenced earlier turns out to be as good as promised. Choosing what's best for you can really be a trying decision to make.

 

For information's sake, another interesting thread from The Corral.

[Madlock]

Good grief. This who thread wound-up swirling around the bowl pretty quickly.

I'm not at all worried about a poor installation. And if I were, Ford sells a complete replacement unit including 3.73 gearing and a Torsen T-2 differential as an entire assembly - for a little more than a grand. Granted, it wouldn't be a T-2R, but the risk reward opportunity cost is negligible on a bang-for-buck basis.

[03 DSG Snake]

Good grief. This who thread wound-up swirling around the bowl pretty quickly.

I'm not at all worried about a poor installation. And if I were, Ford sells a complete replacement unit including 3.73 gearing and a Torsen T-2 differential as an entire assembly - for a little more than a grand. Granted, it wouldn't be a T-2R, but the risk reward opportunity cost is negligible on a bang-for-buck basis.

 

 

T2 is definitely weaker than the T2R.

[Tob]

Good grief. This who thread wound-up swirling around the bowl pretty quickly.

 

You waited until now to post that up? There's plenty of tech to ingest before flushing.

I'm not at all worried about a poor installation. And if I were, Ford sells a complete replacement unit including 3.73 gearing and a Torsen T-2 differential as an entire assembly - for a little more than a grand. Granted, it wouldn't be a T-2R, but the risk reward opportunity cost is negligible on a bang-for-buck basis.

 

Good to hear you're not concerned about someone installing it for you. The odds, from at least a quick "internet tally" - would have you posting somewhere regarding increased gear whine in short order.

 

As to installing a complete factory Ford rear axle assembly, I'm with you 100%, as I did as much with mine. But as for your local Ford dealer being in a position to ever sell you a complete 2012 Boss 302 or LS 3.73 Torsen equipped rear for "little more than a grand" - I'm here to tell you that you'll pay far more than that. I suspect you've gandered at the following from FordParts.com's site. A search under 2012 Ford Mustang (can't search specifically for Boss at this juncture) GT, 5.0 - 8cyl, Transmission 6-Standard (MT82), Driveline and Axle category, brings you to the following page which continues on well beyond what I'm linking.

 

The Torsen differential alone as used in the '12 Boss 302 and sold through your local Ford dealer is listed at over $1,200 alone!

 

 

The standard '12 LS differential comes in at about 1/2 that price (view image 4026 from the link tree above at Ford.com).

 

 

For reference, look at the 2010 GT500 parts results. You won't find a Torsen equipped complete assembly for less than a standard TL equipped GT500 assembly.

 

 

Now it is my understanding via a reputable contact at FR that the 2011 (and I assume '12) GT500 SVT PP 3.73 TL assembly will be available from FRPP soon. Hopefully, that assembly will be released at a price similar to the last 3.73 FRPP assembly (that is no longer available). Street price was just under $1,000. I'd proffer at this point that were FRPP to also carry the Torsen equipped Boss assembly, that the best price you'd find would be in the $1,400-$1,500 range. You're not ever going to come close to what FRPP could sell the assembly for from even the "bestest" OEM Ford Parts Network Dealer. Hopefully, FRPP carries the part and offers it at a great price.