CTS-V will not be the problem for us the ZL1 Camaro will

[JWG223]

The point is that it was Ford's soul to sell, and I'm sure it sold it with the presumption that if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been bailed-out. Moral hazard is precisely what compelled Ford to save itself. I'm sure it also included the presumption that any future competitors would bear at least the minimum burden of having to act rationally rather than a suicide bomber in the crowded marketplace. In this case, GM survived, AND got the 72 virgins.

 

And any debt Ford holds is between Ford and its creditors, who ALSO chose to lend to Ford under the same presumption that Ford's largest competitors would be subject to the same moral hazard - meaning going out of business if they did things that were stupid enough. Nobody having anything to do with Ford is there for any other reason than they chose to be. And even those who chose to own or lend to Ford voluntarily find themselves affected by rules rewritten after the fact.

 

What's most galling is that even among those who flit along life in a world that's all about feeling good and being happy - where making the books balance can always be somebody else's problem, very few people have any appreciation for the inherent lack of wisdom in turning one stable legitimate car maker into three marginal ones at HUGE expense, but they also fail to appreciate the effect upon every other maker, including those like Toyota, Honda and Hyundai who ALSO have to compete with these new and virtually-unlimited development budgets despite ALSO putting Americans to work and without requiring a cent of bailout. Toyota and Hyundai have been a FAR better corporate citizens to America than GM or Chrysler have EVER been during the same period.

 

It's just something that's fundamentally unjust, that I'm not willing to abide or make excuses for - to such an extent that despite being more than able to afford a CTS-V or ZR1, I'd never own one - because they simply shouldn't continue to exist in the first place, and if I were to buy one, I'd be nothing but a hypocrite who'd have nobody but himself to blame when I've been put out of business despite being better, more profitable, or creating greater value than any of my competitors.

 

It may mean a Taurus SHO is the closest thing to an American performance sedan I ever have the chance to own - so be it. I can do so with a clear conscience. It also doesn't mean I have blind loyalty to Ford despite its many faults and the many areas of its business that it hasn't yet corrected, but I'm willing to continue to support them as long as it continues to make meaningful progress toward improving them.

 

It's not because I have any inherent bias against any other car maker - I owned a Chevy and a Benz until 2009 when I chose to support Ford directly by converting to Ford and Lincoln. It's because I care so much about my economy (which includes myself) that I feel so strongly - in support of Ford as both a car maker and an example of what America SHOULD be doing - rather than ignoring.

 

Though, to be fair, I have to admit it was worth a billion or two, as Wagoner and Nardelli were begging for scraps and pleading to keep their jobs for $1/year, just to hear Mulally tell Congress, "I think I'm ok where I am," while Wagoner didn't "have a position on that." He has FAR more class than I do, or I'd have been making an "L" with my hand against my forehead while the other two were testifying.

 

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/AutoEx/start/15586/stop/15709

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with the bail-out, but that doesn't mean that I am going to buy something else being as I like the GM product best. It's not like NOT buying the product will make the bail-out go away. In fact, it will hurt GM, which will prevent them from paying it back, which will hurt the US further, and make the bail-out a complete failure and give us tax payers NO return. Which will hurt my country much more, as all of us now have a vested interest in GM's success.

 

You're donating your money (profit off the car) to Ford and their lenders.

 

I am donating my money to you, and myself, and the rest of the tax payers.

 

Is it "right"? No, I don't think so, but it is what it is and sadly life is like that.

[JWG223]

i do not like the camaro i think it is ugly as hell and the interior is probably one of the ugliest i have ever seen. i have owned a couple z28's and it was the same story but the motors were awesome. i think we and the gm fans will benefit greatly from this, the next generation horsepower wars.i am just glad gm finally showed up now if the challenger will get into the mix also

 

 

I think that everything is still rather "crude". When Ford goes to the 2014 platform, and GM goes to their lighter platform, then things will REALLY kick off.

 

Both companies have squared up, and the GT500 and ZL1 are just a few right-crosses after the jabs there were the 5.0 and SS.

 

We are really going to get a show in another couple of years.

[darthracer777]

The point is that it was Ford's soul to sell, and I'm sure it sold it with the presumption that if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been bailed-out. Moral hazard is precisely what compelled Ford to save itself. I'm sure it also included the presumption that any future competitors would bear at least the minimum burden of having to act rationally rather than a suicide bomber in the crowded marketplace. In this case, GM survived, AND got the 72 virgins.

 

And any debt Ford holds is between Ford and its creditors, who ALSO chose to lend to Ford under the same presumption that Ford's largest competitors would be subject to the same moral hazard - meaning going out of business if they did things that were stupid enough. Nobody having anything to do with Ford is there for any other reason than they chose to be. And even those who chose to own or lend to Ford voluntarily find themselves affected by rules rewritten after the fact.

 

What's most galling is that even among those who flit along life in a world that's all about feeling good and being happy - where making the books balance can always be somebody else's problem, very few people have any appreciation for the inherent lack of wisdom in turning one stable legitimate car maker into three marginal ones at HUGE expense, but they also fail to appreciate the effect upon every other maker, including those like Toyota, Honda and Hyundai who ALSO have to compete with these new and virtually-unlimited development budgets despite ALSO putting Americans to work and without requiring a cent of bailout. Toyota and Hyundai have been a FAR better corporate citizens to America than GM or Chrysler have EVER been during the same period.

 

It's just something that's fundamentally unjust, that I'm not willing to abide or make excuses for - to such an extent that despite being more than able to afford a CTS-V or ZR1, I'd never own one - because they simply shouldn't continue to exist in the first place, and if I were to buy one, I'd be nothing but a hypocrite who'd have nobody but himself to blame when I've been put out of business despite being better, more profitable, or creating greater value than any of my competitors.

 

It may mean a Taurus SHO is the closest thing to an American performance sedan I ever have the chance to own - so be it. I can do so with a clear conscience. It also doesn't mean I have blind loyalty to Ford despite its many faults and the many areas of its business that it hasn't yet corrected, but I'm willing to continue to support them as long as it continues to make meaningful progress toward improving them.

 

It's not because I have any inherent bias against any other car maker - I owned a Chevy and a Benz until 2009 when I chose to support Ford directly by converting to Ford and Lincoln. It's because I care so much about my economy (which includes myself) that I feel so strongly - in support of Ford as both a car maker and an example of what America SHOULD be doing - rather than ignoring.

 

Though, to be fair, I have to admit it was worth a billion or two, as Wagoner and Nardelli were begging for scraps and pleading to keep their jobs for $1/year, just to hear Mulally tell Congress, "I think I'm ok where I am," while Wagoner didn't "have a position on that." He has FAR more class than I do, or I'd have been making an "L" with my hand against my forehead while the other two were testifying.

 

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/AutoEx/start/15586/stop/15709

 

 

Very well stated.....I couldn't agree more.

[COBRA32]

Do not get me wrong I have driven a Camaro and would not even consider it. I would just like for Ford to put some meat on our cars. My daily driver is a 2011 GT500 and I love it, it just really needs some tires and traction. This car would be really fast if it could hook up. Driving around on Drag radials is not an option for a daily driver especially in the rain. I have had several Mustangs and this one is the worst when it comes to traction on the street the 2003 was probably the best far as traction. Everything else the 2011 is better than my 2003 cobra, its fun as hell but it would be nice to also have some traction when you want it. Hey and another thing since the Boss is the track car. They need to put the heated seats, backup camera in the GT500 like the base Mustang has since the GT500 is grand tourer now.

[speedyman]

The GM haters here are hilarious.

 

GM took government money for the same reasons that Ford threw in the towel and mortgaged everything down to their office equipment. None of us like the idea of a GM bailout. Few of us care to see billions of taxpayer funds thrown at bums who don't and will never be employed taxpayers either. Asian car manufacturers have been the recipients of subsidies from their respective governments for decades as they devoured market share from our domestic manufacturers.

 

Do any of the GM critics have sufficient mentality to ponder the after effects of a total collapse and evaporation of General Motors. The domino effect of subsequent corporate failures would have been catastrophic in very shorter and is the primary reason for government intervention which would have occured regardless of political control. We are fortunate that GM is in recovery. Ya don't like the bailout, tough, it is working, get over it.

[oldlugs]

Funny how so many people complain about GT500s having inadequate tires from Ford... If you can afford a GT500, then surely you can afford a few hundred more spent on wider wheels and suitable tires. Who cares what magazines say the cars will do on the stockers, and if the Camaro is a few tenths quicker in their tests because of better traction. Put wider tires on your GT500, and maybe you'll sleep better.

[Madlock]

"Complete collapse and evaporation of GM"? Girlfriend, please... Quel drama,

[darthracer777]

Do any of the GM critics have sufficient mentality to ponder the after effects of a total collapse and evaporation of General Motors. The domino effect of subsequent corporate failures would have been catastrophic in very shorter and is the primary reason for government intervention which would have occured regardless of political control. We are fortunate that GM is in recovery. Ya don't like the bailout, tough, it is working, get over it.

 

 

...but what about the next bailout of GM? I see that day coming. If they don't improve their business model, it will happen again. They need to do their part in running their company properly without sucking on the government tit. GM deserves their ridicule.

[jsarkis]

"Ya don't like the bailout, tough, it is working, get over it."

 

I honestly lol in real life reading this bleeding heart liberal sentence. It's working ....

 

 

[speedyman]

"Ya don't like the bailout, tough, it is working, get over it."

 

I honestly lol in real life reading this bleeding heart liberal sentence. It's working ....

 

 

That is about as far from liberal as it gets, keep scratching your head, look beyond the end of your nose and you might get it. The bailout is in fact working and that is a very good thing for our economy and the hundreds of thousands of families whose livelyhoods are directly or indirectly impacted by GM's economic viability. The infantile Ford loving, GM hating mindset is really laughable.

[JWG223]

That is about as far from liberal as it gets, keep scratching your head, look beyond the end of your nose and you might get it. The bailout is in fact working and that is a very good thing for our economy and the hundreds of thousands of families whose livelyhoods are directly or indirectly impacted by GM's economic viability. The infantile Ford loving, GM hating mindset is really laughable.

 

 

I agree for the most. They are forgetting that the new Camaro has slaughtered the mustang in sales. GM has improved quite a bit. The new 'vettes are SO MUCH better than what came out in '05 with respect to quality. I could tell the moment I saw a 2010 that they were better. Body panels line up great, etc. etc. In 2005, it was all over the place with the gaps and inconsistencies.

[darthracer777]

That is about as far from liberal as it gets, keep scratching your head, look beyond the end of your nose and you might get it. The bailout is in fact working and that is a very good thing for our economy and the hundreds of thousands of families whose livelyhoods are directly or indirectly impacted by GM's economic viability. The infantile Ford loving, GM hating mindset is really laughable.

 

 

LOL...like the infantile GM loving, Ford hating folks I run into?

 

I'm not a bankrupcy expert by any means, but I think GM could have survived without taking government money by filing Chapter 11. Perhaps MADLOCK or JCARVER could comment on that.

 

They could have restructured...yes, they would have gotten smaller and some more layoffs....the UAW wouldn't have been as dominating at GM, but so what? Life is tough for most everyone. I'm in the aircraft industry. I've been laid off in the past. I just picked myself up and found another job.

 

In my humble opinion, GM could have found another way to solvency, but they took the easy way out.

[2sharpie]

I agree for the most. They are forgetting that the new Camaro has slaughtered the mustang in sales. GM has improved quite a bit. The new 'vettes are SO MUCH better than what came out in '05 with respect to quality. I could tell the moment I saw a 2010 that they were better. Body panels line up great, etc. etc. In 2005, it was all over the place with the gaps and inconsistencies.

 

 

 

2010 totals...............Camaro 81,299 vs Mustang 73,716. I don't know if that's a slaughtering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

........And is there anyway we can get back on topic about the ZL1 ??

[Madlock]

I agree for the most. They are forgetting that the new Camaro has slaughtered the mustang in sales. GM has improved quite a bit. The new 'vettes are SO MUCH better than what came out in '05 with respect to quality. I could tell the moment I saw a 2010 that they were better. Body panels line up great, etc. etc. In 2005, it was all over the place with the gaps and inconsistencies.

 

 

Slaughtered? Hardly.

 

Camaro benefited from a degree of pent-up demand at the same time Ford had telegraphed the obsolescence of every 2010 model year Mustang fully six months before the '11's arrived with 100 horsepower. Claiming Camaro "slaughtered" Mustang is as silly as claiming Mustang "slaughtered" Camaro during the years it wasn't in production. Once the anomalies were stripped-out comparable sales have been virtually identical between them.

 

Every objective comparison favors Mustang by a wide margin in virtually every measure. The fact that Camaro continues to sell well is a testament to the ongoing ignorance and apathy of a marketplace that deserves exactly the fate it's consigning itself to. GM putting itself out of business in the process of improving its product portfolio is no accomplishment - without having to reconcile any of the finances before OR since Camaro's re-introduction, GM's got a lot of explaining to do as to why each of its product isn't indisputably best in class after being gifted $80B and the tens of billions more in the form of bondholders rights who were retroactively usurped - another consequence so many dismiss so easily because it wasn't THEIR money or rights that were directly usurped - or at least they think it wasn't.

 

This "the bailout is working" and "all the good it's done" nonsense only further emphasizes the reasons why it's not and hasn't. Unless if anybody who claims to feel that way wouldn't mind having say... his free-and clear GT500 seized or stolen and the proceeds used to pay the mortgage, tuition or even vacation of somebody he'd never met - who'd pissed away his own GT500 over 30 years of blowing the family savings at the corner tavern. Unless anybody who champions the virtues of the bailout wouldn't also mind having his home sold out from under him - or having his own job put at risk because the government give unlimited resources to his employer's competitor across the street, his otherwise all-to-convenient selective memory and willingness to rationalize can only be attributed to four things: ingorance (doesn't understand), apathy (doesn't care), hypocrisy (understands, but doesn't care) or luckier than he deserves (still has a job despite his employer earning less than it pays him).

 

The last is the only I might have ANY time for - but only those who acknowledge and comport themselves with any sort of awareness of the opportunity they have at others' expense and deference to the tremendous cost others have been made to bear for his sake, including those who work, invest, and do business with his legitimate, solvent competitors. Unfortunately, that's not been what's happened. Barely a year past the bailouts, the sentiment has largely become that these companies "deserved" to be saved from themselves - because it was in the interest of the people who were stuck with the check to do so.

 

The simple fact that so many are so adamant about defending bailing-out GM and Chrysler (although Chrysler was an entirely different kettle of fish) - even more so than the potential impact upon Ford (or Toyota, Hyundai or any other legitimate enterprise that both produces and sells vehicles within the U.S.) or the sheer inequity of what was perpetrated really goes straight to the center of the social, cultural and ethical erosion that's directly responsible for leading America down the road it's travelling. At the very least, a person whose ass has just been saved ought not behave as if the person who footed the bill to save it should just be grateful for the chance to do so - and the same goes for his family and friends.

[steemin]

First of all I am not a brand loyal robot...

I own GM and Ford products..

 

That being said I am disgusted by the fact that Gthe GOVT. is giving $7500 subsidies to sell their "eco friendly" Volt.

Why is this the case?

 

The reality is that Volt will not stand on its own.

The Govt, (GM bailout sponsor) has to prop up this car to make sure that it sells.

 

If this car had to compete fairly in the free enterprise system it would die a quick painful death.

But since the Govt owns GM they are going to do whatever is necessary to ensure that it at some level it succeeds..

Consequently the American taxpayer will end up footing the bill!!!!!!

 

Can you imagine owning business and having to compete against a Company that the Govt. offers huge incentives to buy your competitors product?

 

The free enterprise system works and the fact that the Govt. now has its hand in the matter makes me want to puke!!!!!!!

 

 

Scott

[Cdvision]

Interesting machine.

 

Eco Jet-GM teams with Jay Leno

[Dubstang]

That is about as far from liberal as it gets, keep scratching your head, look beyond the end of your nose and you might get it. The bailout is in fact working and that is a very good thing for our economy and the hundreds of thousands of families whose livelyhoods are directly or indirectly impacted by GM's economic viability. The infantile Ford loving, GM hating mindset is really laughable.

 

 

Hey Speedyman, why don't you go blow some more smoke up your mullet loving GM buddies asses. What the hell did you expect? You're on a Shelby Ford FORUM you moron! And by the way, regardless of whether or not the bailout is working, why don't you realize that it never should have come to that to begin with. Did you ever consider that maybe just maybe if GM made solid reliable products to begin with they wouldn't have needed Government money? Instead of looking at how the money is helping GM, look at why they needed it in the first place.

 

Sorry, but I really can't stand GM loyalists coming to a Ford Forum and bashing. Seriously, get a life!

 

Jim

[mike.s]

i understand the desire for wider tires with the amount of power these cars make but i have never kept a vehicle stock and never will. usually the first change is wheels and tires so not a concern.i would rather they make these things lighter. i dont care if the zl1 is faster there will always be a faster car and i respect that and have no problem with it but more importantly these shelbys just speak to me,always have. so unti i can have one of each and a ferrari i will have a shelby in the garage

[svttim]

Whaaa? 2010 (year-model 2011) is the FIRST year that Ford has produced a Mustang GT capable of beating a 1998 Z28/SS.

 

I didnt realize the Mustang GT was the top performance Mustang all those years

[Ezareth]

I can't argue against the sentiment you have against hand-outs or the economic sense of it, but I can say that what GM has done is no different than what a lot of businesses have done.

 

However, I refuse to defend what GM did because I don't agree with it. I simply propose that they made a darn good vehicle (As demonstrated by the PPH rating of said vehicle, the corvette, at 71, as compared to the mustang, at 77, which is also pretty darn good!).

 

Further, I propose that the "do no wrong" sanction you seem to have for Ford is misplaced.

 

Ford was FAR! less successful than GM was, regarding the debt they accrued. Very poorly managed. The difference was that GM took the govt. bail-out and Ford sold their soul.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/23/autos-ford-debt-business-autos-ford-debt.html

 

As to the UAW workers, Ford employs 41,000 of them.

 

Ford didn't "sell their soul". If you look at the 2.9 billion dollars they are paying against their debt today you'd see that have more capital on hand than debt (less than 20 billion). That's what I'd call success. They also made sure to pay all their debt to the debtors, something GM didn't do, and why it isn't sadled with the debt (or business of many of us) that Ford has.

 

GM went into bankruptcy with 178 billion in debt.

 

You guys fail the mention the worst part of the entire GM scandal. Not so much the the government propped them up with 60 billion our tax dollars, but they GAVE a 20% stake in GM to the UAW (Democratic constituents) after they continued to give their workers unsuportable pension benefits and then used that to take a stake in GM. GM Shareholders got a 1:100 reverse split (1 penny on the dollar). Bondholders got 10% stake in the new company.

 

People with lawsuits and medical claims against GM prior to the bankruptcy? They get nothing! Wiped clean by the Obama Administration.

 

Want to see the type of people who got screwed by this company?

Bondholders

 

Average Americans like every here who are just trying to save for retirement. The worst part is the people who caused the Bankruptcy are the ones who got the most and end up getting ownership shares in the company they are killing....

 

Yeah Ford is infected with the same Union as well....they just haven't been sucked dry yet.

[Ezareth]

Do not get me wrong I have driven a Camaro and would not even consider it. I would just like for Ford to put some meat on our cars. My daily driver is a 2011 GT500 and I love it, it just really needs some tires and traction. This car would be really fast if it could hook up. Driving around on Drag radials is not an option for a daily driver especially in the rain. I have had several Mustangs and this one is the worst when it comes to traction on the street the 2003 was probably the best far as traction. Everything else the 2011 is better than my 2003 cobra, its fun as hell but it would be nice to also have some traction when you want it. Hey and another thing since the Boss is the track car. They need to put the heated seats, backup camera in the GT500 like the base Mustang has since the GT500 is grand tourer now.

 

Seeing grown men clamor for heated seats in a performance vehicle will just never sit right with me. / =

[2010GT500Cyclist]

The point is that it was Ford's soul to sell, and I'm sure it sold it with the presumption that if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been bailed-out. Moral hazard is precisely what compelled Ford to save itself. I'm sure it also included the presumption that any future competitors would bear at least the minimum burden of having to act rationally rather than a suicide bomber in the crowded marketplace. In this case, GM survived, AND got the 72 virgins.

 

And any debt Ford holds is between Ford and its creditors, who ALSO chose to lend to Ford under the same presumption that Ford's largest competitors would be subject to the same moral hazard - meaning going out of business if they did things that were stupid enough. Nobody having anything to do with Ford is there for any other reason than they chose to be. And even those who chose to own or lend to Ford voluntarily find themselves affected by rules rewritten after the fact.

 

What's most galling is that even among those who flit along life in a world that's all about feeling good and being happy - where making the books balance can always be somebody else's problem, very few people have any appreciation for the inherent lack of wisdom in turning one stable legitimate car maker into three marginal ones at HUGE expense, but they also fail to appreciate the effect upon every other maker, including those like Toyota, Honda and Hyundai who ALSO have to compete with these new and virtually-unlimited development budgets despite ALSO putting Americans to work and without requiring a cent of bailout. Toyota and Hyundai have been a FAR better corporate citizens to America than GM or Chrysler have EVER been during the same period.

 

It's just something that's fundamentally unjust, that I'm not willing to abide or make excuses for - to such an extent that despite being more than able to afford a CTS-V or ZR1, I'd never own one - because they simply shouldn't continue to exist in the first place, and if I were to buy one, I'd be nothing but a hypocrite who'd have nobody but himself to blame when I've been put out of business despite being better, more profitable, or creating greater value than any of my competitors.

 

It may mean a Taurus SHO is the closest thing to an American performance sedan I ever have the chance to own - so be it. I can do so with a clear conscience. It also doesn't mean I have blind loyalty to Ford despite its many faults and the many areas of its business that it hasn't yet corrected, but I'm willing to continue to support them as long as it continues to make meaningful progress toward improving them.

 

It's not because I have any inherent bias against any other car maker - I owned a Chevy and a Benz until 2009 when I chose to support Ford directly by converting to Ford and Lincoln. It's because I care so much about my economy (which includes myself) that I feel so strongly - in support of Ford as both a car maker and an example of what America SHOULD be doing - rather than ignoring.

 

Though, to be fair, I have to admit it was worth a billion or two, as Wagoner and Nardelli were begging for scraps and pleading to keep their jobs for $1/year, just to hear Mulally tell Congress, "I think I'm ok where I am," while Wagoner didn't "have a position on that." He has FAR more class than I do, or I'd have been making an "L" with my hand against my forehead while the other two were testifying.

 

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/AutoEx/start/15586/stop/15709

 

 

Very nice post, the best that I have read on this site in a long time. Great job.

[mustang let back]

i understand how people feel about the bailout.im not a gm fan period.they bought their way to the top years ago.although gm made terrible mistakes and is now Government Motors,in all fairness there is a bigger picture.the powers behind the scene caused the WHOLE ECONOMY to fall apart.BUSH,HENRY PAULSON,CLINTON,AND OBAMA.gas will go up sky high.it is very possible that gm needs another bailout.the housing market will get worse this year,and once commercial real estate falls apart watch out.i think if things keep going the way they ,america will only have one CAR COMPANY left.now,back to the topic please.i say FORD will do something to the GT500 that will beat the zl1.i also have to keep in mind that since the government has gm,most magazines will say that the zl1 is faster than the GT500.

[REVENGE]

i understand how people feel about the bailout.im not a gm fan period.they bought their way to the top years ago.although gm made terrible mistakes and is now Government Motors,in all fairness there is a bigger picture.the powers behind the scene caused the WHOLE ECONOMY to fall apart.BUSH,HENRY PAULSON,CLINTON,AND OBAMA.gas will go up sky high.it is very possible that gm needs another bailout.the housing market will get worse this year,and once commercial real estate falls apart watch out.i think if things keep going the way they ,america will only have one CAR COMPANY left.now,back to the topic please.i say FORD will do something to the GT500 that will beat the zl1.i also have to keep in mind that since the government has gm,most magazines will say that the zl1 is faster than the GT500.

 

 

Amazing. Speed is one thing magazines can't really lie about. There are too many publications testing cars. They can rate one car better than the other but they can't say the slower car is faster without the readers knowing its BS.

 

 

There is also something behind most of the GM hate that no one is mentioning but since everyone else is willing to ignore it ...

[JWG223]

i understand how people feel about the bailout.im not a gm fan period.they bought their way to the top years ago.although gm made terrible mistakes and is now Government Motors,in all fairness there is a bigger picture.the powers behind the scene caused the WHOLE ECONOMY to fall apart.BUSH,HENRY PAULSON,CLINTON,AND OBAMA.gas will go up sky high.it is very possible that gm needs another bailout.the housing market will get worse this year,and once commercial real estate falls apart watch out.i think if things keep going the way they ,america will only have one CAR COMPANY left.now,back to the topic please.i say FORD will do something to the GT500 that will beat the zl1.i also have to keep in mind that since the government has gm,most magazines will say that the zl1 is faster than the GT500.

 

 

 

Really? Are you being serious or making a funny? Some things are lost via the 'net and I don't want to make assumptions here.

 

I hope Ford does something to the GT500 to make it hook better (It already has power/weight going for it). Competition is good!

[speedyman]

Amazing. Speed is one thing magazines can't really lie about. There are too many publications testing cars. They can rate one car better than the other but they can't say the slower car is faster without the readers knowing its BS.

 

 

There is also something behind most of the GM hate that no one is mentioning but since everyone else is willing to ignore it ...

 

 

Correct! +100

[JWG223]

Slaughtered? Hardly.

 

Camaro benefited from a degree of pent-up demand at the same time Ford had telegraphed the obsolescence of every 2010 model year Mustang fully six months before the '11's arrived with 100 horsepower. Claiming Camaro "slaughtered" Mustang is as silly as claiming Mustang "slaughtered" Camaro during the years it wasn't in production. Once the anomalies were stripped-out comparable sales have been virtually identical between them.

 

Every objective comparison favors Mustang by a wide margin in virtually every measure. The fact that Camaro continues to sell well is a testament to the ongoing ignorance and apathy of a marketplace that deserves exactly the fate it's consigning itself to. GM putting itself out of business in the process of improving its product portfolio is no accomplishment - without having to reconcile any of the finances before OR since Camaro's re-introduction, GM's got a lot of explaining to do as to why each of its product isn't indisputably best in class after being gifted $80B and the tens of billions more in the form of bondholders rights who were retroactively usurped - another consequence so many dismiss so easily because it wasn't THEIR money or rights that were directly usurped - or at least they think it wasn't.

 

This "the bailout is working" and "all the good it's done" nonsense only further emphasizes the reasons why it's not and hasn't. Unless if anybody who claims to feel that way wouldn't mind having say... his free-and clear GT500 seized or stolen and the proceeds used to pay the mortgage, tuition or even vacation of somebody he'd never met - who'd pissed away his own GT500 over 30 years of blowing the family savings at the corner tavern. Unless anybody who champions the virtues of the bailout wouldn't also mind having his home sold out from under him - or having his own job put at risk because the government give unlimited resources to his employer's competitor across the street, his otherwise all-to-convenient selective memory and willingness to rationalize can only be attributed to four things: ingorance (doesn't understand), apathy (doesn't care), hypocrisy (understands, but doesn't care) or luckier than he deserves (still has a job despite his employer earning less than it pays him).

 

The last is the only I might have ANY time for - but only those who acknowledge and comport themselves with any sort of awareness of the opportunity they have at others' expense and deference to the tremendous cost others have been made to bear for his sake, including those who work, invest, and do business with his legitimate, solvent competitors. Unfortunately, that's not been what's happened. Barely a year past the bailouts, the sentiment has largely become that these companies "deserved" to be saved from themselves - because it was in the interest of the people who were stuck with the check to do so.

 

The simple fact that so many are so adamant about defending bailing-out GM and Chrysler (although Chrysler was an entirely different kettle of fish) - even more so than the potential impact upon Ford (or Toyota, Hyundai or any other legitimate enterprise that both produces and sells vehicles within the U.S.) or the sheer inequity of what was perpetrated really goes straight to the center of the social, cultural and ethical erosion that's directly responsible for leading America down the road it's travelling. At the very least, a person whose ass has just been saved ought not behave as if the person who footed the bill to save it should just be grateful for the chance to do so - and the same goes for his family and friends.

 

 

Remember 1993-2002? Ford absolutely destroyed the F-body, even though the same could be said for the F-body, It absolutely CRUSHED all but the 03/04 Cobra year-for-year.

 

Selling a car isn't about performance. It's about perception.

 

 

____________

 

Once again, I never said the bail-out was "right". I simply said that it happened and I'm going to benefit from it by buying a superior car FOR MY NEEDS. I don't care what emblem is on it.

[cobra2564]

Maybe this was previously mentioned but GM also gets a certain amount of corporate tax relief that Ford does not get through this deal. Not right. If your gonna do bailouts ( and I didnt and dont think it is/was right) at least level the playing field after you "tinker" with the market. Just me sayin! .

[jcarver]

I appreciate the fact that you can read a Webster's jwg223; quote a few definitions; and attempt to minimize my opinion (about the topic of tires and no need to consider manufacturer/model substitution). That being said, (and this is the last I will comment on this as it's significantly off-topic) it seems you now support my assertion that Shelbys are more exclusive than Camaros (e.g., your own post below and your handy Webster's definitions earlier).

 

I agree for the most. They are forgetting that the new Camaro has slaughtered the mustang in sales. GM has improved quite a bit. The new 'vettes are SO MUCH better than what came out in '05 with respect to quality. I could tell the moment I saw a 2010 that they were better. Body panels line up great, etc. etc. In 2005, it was all over the place with the gaps and inconsistencies.

 

 

How does one "slaughter" without sacrificing exclusivity? Assuming Sharpie's 2010 production totals provided earlier on Camaros are accurate and your assertion that GT500s are just Ford production cars like Camaros,how is 3,545 coupes; 913 convertibles; or even 4,458 (total GT500s) in 2010 not exclusive (as compared to Camaros & sticking to your supplied defintions)?

 

Lastly, I leave you with this to ponder as you read/re-read "Salvage Factory;" has Ford been the only company to benefit from the relaxed regulations concerning recall? Does a double standard exist for GM cars concerning recalls? They've never benefitted from this change in policy; right? The author is not assuming away the fact that the legislation signed in by Reagan benefits anyone beyond Ford; right?

 

If you want to buy Chevy; fine. Good for you. I grew up in a Corvette family; the first picture I have of me is standing in a T-top Stingray when I was 1. I will not purchase from GM ever again though because I believe in the free market system; I do not believe in picking winners and losers to any degree and at any time.

 

Enjoy your Chevys; I will continue to enjoy the fact that I don't see GT500s on every street corner. To each their own, but perhaps if you don't like the Ford support, you should go to a forum not intended for Shebly, and by extension Ford, owners / enthusiasts.

[JWG223]

I appreciate the fact that you can read a Webster's jwg223; quote a few definitions; and attempt to minimize my opinion (about the topic of tires and no need to consider manufacturer/model substitution). That being said, (and this is the last I will comment on this as it's significantly off-topic) it seems you now support my assertion that Shelbys are more exclusive than Camaros (e.g., your own post below and your handy Webster's definitions earlier).

 

 

 

How does one "slaughter" without sacrificing exclusivity? Assuming Sharpie's 2010 production totals provided earlier on Camaros are accurate and your assertion that GT500s are just Ford production cars like Camaros,how is 3,545 coupes; 913 convertibles; or even 4,458 (total GT500s) in 2010 not exclusive (as compared to Camaros & sticking to your supplied defintions)?

 

Lastly, I leave you with this to ponder as you read/re-read "Salvage Factory;" has Ford been the only company to benefit from the relaxed regulations concerning recall? Does a double standard exist for GM cars concerning recalls? They've never benefitted from this change in policy; right? The author is not assuming away the fact that the legislation signed in by Reagan benefits anyone beyond Ford; right?

 

If you want to buy Chevy; fine. Good for you. I grew up in a Corvette family; the first picture I have of me is standing in a T-top Stingray when I was 1. I will not purchase from GM ever again though because I believe in the free market system; I do not believe in picking winners and losers to any degree and at any time.

 

Enjoy your Chevys; I will continue to enjoy the fact that I don't see GT500s on every street corner. To each their own, but perhaps if you don't like the Ford support, you should go to a forum not intended for Shebly, and by extension Ford, owners / enthusiasts.

 

 

GM wasn't favored over Ford. Ford chose not to be favored, if that is the term you want to use.

 

I don't believe in "picking winners (companies)" either. That's why I bought the car I wanted instead of going with a political meme.

 

To date, GM has sold 0 Camaro's that are designed to compete with the GT500.

The original ZL1 was exclusive. 69 were made.

This ZL1? I highly doubt it will be exclusive. Just like the GT500, it will be a "We will build more than we can sell" thing.