BoneDoc Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Last October I took my SS road racing at a 1.4 mile course south of Denver. about 60-70 degrees outside. about 5500 ft altitude. minimal humidity. After 3 hard laps the intercooler fluid was superheating and boiling over. The reservoir was too hot to touch, threw a high intake temp code. The heat soak was tremendous and easily noticeable from the drivers seat. I'm having the system checked out and so far found nothing. pump, fans seem to be working. fuses all OK. fans are all pulling air in the correct direction. I tried teflon tape around the intercooler cap to keep it sealed but the cooland spilled over and sprayed the car anyway. had my stock pulley on. I run 50/50 mix water and coolant with water wetter. Any ideas? my shop guy is starting to talk about ways to improve the system but i am inclined to think that the system is fine (haven't heard this issue on these forums) and that we should focus on trying to find the problem. Van Collier has been really helpful, as has Craig at SAI... but we haven't nailed the issue yet. It just doesnt seem right that after 3 laps on a this short course for this thing to boil over like that. not had this issue on the dragstrip. Thanks in advance for your ideas. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Racing Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Last October I took my SS road racing at a 1.4 mile course south of Denver. about 60-70 degrees outside. about 5500 ft altitude. minimal humidity. After 3 hard laps the intercooler fluid was superheating and boiling over. The reservoir was too hot to touch, threw a high intake temp code. The heat soak was tremendous and easily noticeable from the drivers seat. I'm having the system checked out and so far found nothing. pump, fans seem to be working. fuses all OK. fans are all pulling air in the correct direction. I tried teflon tape around the intercooler cap to keep it sealed but the cooland spilled over and sparyed the car anyway. had my stock pulley on. I run 50/50 mix water and coolant with water wetter. Any ideas? my shop guy is starting to talk about ways to improve the system but i am inclined to think that the system is fine (haven't heard this issue on these forums) and that we should focus on trying to find the problem. Van Collier has been really helpful, as has Craig at SAI... but we haven't nailed the issue yet. It just doesnt seem right that after 3 laps on a this short course for this thing to boil over like that. not had this issue on the dragstrip. Thanks in advance for your ideas. Ron Ron I think the next step would be to pressure test the system. Put about 16-20 lbs of pressure on the system and let's make sure it holds pressure. If pressure falls off there is a leak in the intercooler system. If it maintains pressure I think you could have an intermittent intercooler pump failure. It's not common for the intercooler pump to fail however I have seen some fail and this could be cause of the excessive temps. Feel free to give me a call to discuss. Also, on the other failures I've seen the pump was flowing in idle however the fluid wasn't flowing at normal volume even though it appeared to be fine. Let's get to the bottom of it. Van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SS0144 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Having the same problem with mine. It however is the 605 HP package with the stock reservoir. Looking forward to see if you guys find the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby101 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I put the Morosso tank on mine and no problems. The Morosso holds twice the capacity of the Shelby and has a large airplane seal/opening to add ice if needed, though was never necessary. Also have the Shelby Intercooloer coils . Never any issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt A Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'd bet the problem is with the intercooler pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SS0144 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Ron I think the next step would be to pressure test the system. Put about 16-20 lbs of pressure on the system and let's make sure it holds pressure. If pressure falls off there is a leak in the intercooler system. If it maintains pressure I think you could have an intermittent intercooler pump failure. It's not common for the intercooler pump to fail however I have seen some fail and this could be cause of the excessive temps. Feel free to give me a call to discuss. Also, on the other failures I've seen the pump was flowing in idle however the fluid wasn't flowing at normal volume even though it appeared to be fine. Let's get to the bottom of it. Van Is there a way to check the flow rate on the intercooler pump ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt A Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Is there a way to check the flow rate on the intercooler pump ? http://www.lethalperformance.com/07-09-shelby-gt500-cooling-intercooler-pump-upgrades-c-2052_2055_7975/lethal-performance-07-10-gt500-intercooler-pump-upgrade-kit-p-30545 Lethal Performance 07-10 GT500 Intercooler Pump Upgrade Kit When building the Lethal Performance 2010 GT500 we knew we were going to push our car way harder than our 08'. Larger blower, built motor, more boost..All of those things meant that we needed to make sure to play close attention to the cooling system. Part of that was replacing the stock heat exchanger for a larger more efficient one. There was no question that the Revan Racing/C&R/Shelby heat exchanger with dual fans was the way to go. The other part that up until now has been neglected. The intercooler pump. The stock intercooler pump on the GT500 ONLY FLOWS 4GPM. Although that may be enough for a stock GT500 we believe that it's not going to be enough to provide adequate cooling in higher hp applications. We're also not the only ones that believe this. For the 2010 Super Cobra Jet Ford ditched the stock pump for a higher flowing 55gpm pump. Since the Super Cobra Jet has already been 8's and that size pump worked for them it's safe to say that if we were to upgrade our system the 55gpm would be the one to go with. So we went ahead and got the same pump as they did. A 55gpm high flow pump. The problem is a 55gpm pump isn't a direct fit. That's where we come in. Jake@Power By the Hour who built our car designed a custom welded bracket which bolts to our stock/aftermatket heat exchanger and allows the 55gpm pump to install with ease. The bracket is also painted black and blends right in. The rest of the installation is quite easy as the pump comes with the proper weatherpack connectors needed for the wiring.. With the larger pump and larger dual fan heat exchanger your cooling system is complete! Intercooler Pump Upgrade Kit Includes: 55gpm High FLow Electric Water Pump Custom Intercooler Pump Bracket (2) Fittings for the pump (2) High Pressure Hose Clamps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I think the next step would be to pressure test the system. Put about 16-20 lbs of pressure on the system and let's make sure it holds pressure. If pressure falls off there is a leak in the intercooler system. Just like with a engine cooling system, you'd pressure test the system and the cap. Since his cap is obviously allowing fluid out (see his photo) I'd start with the cap pressure test. His problem doesn't seem to be that he's losing coolant from anywhere other than the cap, I'd suspect it before I suspected the system (heat exchanger, IC radiator). Cooling systems are designed to run under pressure so the boiling point/temp of your coolant raises and does not boil at 212d (@ sea level). Caps are typically rated between 13psi and 16psi. A failed cap will allow the coolant to boil at a lower temp and once boiling, will push coolant out of the cap. Me myself, my first step would be to change the IC bottle cap with the radiator cap and see if the problem persists or moves to the engine coolant reservoir. If the problem moves with the cap, the cap is the problem. If the problem stays with the IC system, you have either a lack of air flow (over the IC radiator) or a lack of coolant flow within the system. It's that simple (or a sub-standard system for your demand). If it is a lack of coolant flow your pump is one suspect as is your heat exchanger and radiator core condition. Plugged tubes in your heat exchangers can impede flow and all the pump in the world will not make it better. HOWEVER, my first step in dianosing the problem (i.e. logic) would be to check the IC pump for flow rate. It should flow X gallons per minute (use two barrels and water to check it). I personally wouldn't jump to a system leak with NO symptom of a leak.....other than the cap (which are known to fail, i.e. "history"). Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Racing Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Just like with a engine cooling system, you'd pressure test the system and the cap. Since his cap is obviously allowing fluid out (see his photo) I'd start with the cap pressure test. His problem doesn't seem to be that he's losing coolant from anywhere other than the cap, I'd suspect it before I suspected the system (heat exchanger, IC radiator). Cooling systems are designed to run under pressure so the boiling point/temp of your coolant raises and does not boil at 212d (@ sea level). Caps are typically rated between 13psi and 16psi. A failed cap will allow the coolant to boil at a lower temp and once boiling, will push coolant out of the cap. Me myself, my first step would be to change the IC bottle cap with the radiator cap and see if the problem persists or moves to the engine coolant reservoir. If the problem moves with the cap, the cap is the problem. If the problem stays with the IC system, you have either a lack of air flow (over the IC radiator) or a lack of coolant flow within the system. It's that simple (or a sub-standard system for your demand). If it is a lack of coolant flow your pump is one suspect as is your heat exchanger and radiator core condition. Plugged tubes in your heat exchangers can impede flow and all the pump in the world will not make it better. HOWEVER, my first step in dianosing the problem (i.e. logic) would be to check the IC pump for flow rate. It should flow X gallons per minute (use two barrels and water to check it). I personally wouldn't jump to a system leak with NO symptom of a leak.....other than the cap (which are known to fail, i.e. "history"). Phill We've already changed the cap. It didn't fix it. Most likely the pump is failing and not flowing at the right volume rate thus the reason for super heating the intercooler fluid. Pressure checking is just an additional precautionary check. He's way up there in the cold mountains of Colorado and I want to make sure there isn't a small crack in the intercooler as I have seen that too. Van Van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDoc Posted January 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks Phil for your ideas. I forgot to mention that i had tried an OEM cap and it still leaked. I called Van when this first happened and he gave me several preliminary things to try. The pressure testing is simple enough, so i'll go ahead and knock that out. i thought about corrosion or blockage in the intercooler heat exchanger itself but the system is only 3 yrs old. now, assuming that the pressure test is OK... is there a way to test the flow rate on the IC pump, or do we just back into that assumption after the "process of elimination?" and replace it? If I have to replace the IC pump, are there any other suggestions (aside from the one above) about which to use? Thanks again everyone. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Racing Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Datalog the car at WOT hot and full operating temp. If you do a few hits back to back to back logging IAT2 we will most likely be able to determine if it is the interccoler pump. I'll compare against other data logs and temperature recovery percentage. If the percent is equal to other efficient operating systems then we'll have to look elsewhere. However if the percentage of recovery is reduced it's the pump. Do you still have the data log profile? Do the hits like I mentioned back to back to back. Then email me the logs. Make sure the car is HOT. Your other logs from before weren't indicative because I didn't get to see a full road course run or multiple WOT hits back to back to back. Van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Racing Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks Phil for your ideas. I forgot to mention that i had tried an OEM cap and it still leaked. I called Van when this first happened and he gave me several preliminary things to try. The pressure testing is simple enough, so i'll go ahead and knock that out. i thought about corrosion or blockage in the intercooler heat exchanger itself but the system is only 3 yrs old. now, assuming that the pressure test is OK... is there a way to test the flow rate on the IC pump, or do we just back into that assumption after the "process of elimination?" and replace it? If I have to replace the IC pump, are there any other suggestions (aside from the one above) about which to use? Thanks again everyone. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revan Racing Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks Phil for your ideas. I forgot to mention that i had tried an OEM cap and it still leaked. I called Van when this first happened and he gave me several preliminary things to try. The pressure testing is simple enough, so i'll go ahead and knock that out. i thought about corrosion or blockage in the intercooler heat exchanger itself but the system is only 3 yrs old. now, assuming that the pressure test is OK... is there a way to test the flow rate on the IC pump, or do we just back into that assumption after the "process of elimination?" and replace it? If I have to replace the IC pump, are there any other suggestions (aside from the one above) about which to use? Thanks again everyone. Ron You can move fluid too fast. It needs time in thee intercooler and heat exchanger. The previously mentioned solution might work but the data logs I have seen show it to be counter productive. Stick win the OEM Bosch Pump. Or get a Meziere and put a potentiometer in and adjust the flow but Ford seemed to know what worked so they went with the 3-4 GPM pump versus 55 GPM.........That's significantly faster than stock. Why? The sensor isn't getting enough time to detect heat and extract hot air because it is moving too fast which means hotter air temps are being introduced into the combustion chamber and the PCM is detecting a different temperature. That's a recipe for disaster. On a 2010 with AKS, OK. On a 2011 with AKS and widebands, OK. 2007 to 2009 it's a roll of the dice. I use OEM and all of my testing was done with OEM. This has been completely untested except in quarter mile sessions that last less than 13 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin00Stang Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 The pump is cheap, about $100 from www.buyfordracing.com, and will go bad eventually, so it doesn't hurt to have a spare, you will use it eventually. I found the flow rate to be 4.5 GPM in the system with a larger HE installed (stock on is very restrictive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 now, assuming that the pressure test is OK... is there a way to test the flow rate on the IC pump, or do we just back into that assumption after the "process of elimination?" and replace it? I never "shotgun" a diagnosis. Test the pump, it's easy. If you know the flow rate (and it sounds like it's either one of two rates posted) take a empty 5 gallon plastic bucket to measure with. Get another source of water (a garden hose running into a 1-2 gallon bucket, for example). Put the pump intake into the souce bucket and the outlet hose into the empty 5 gallon bucket. Put full system voltage (I ASSUME 12.6v-14.5v) to the pump and let it pump for EXACTLY ONE MINUTE. Time it with a clock. It should flow 4.5 gallons of water into the bucket (or whatever the true GPM rate is) in one minute. You can use a little math if you don't want to fun for a full minute. 30 seconds should get you 2.25 gals, 15 seconds should get you 1.125 gals, etc. I'd go a full minute just in case the pump is slowing/binding with time. HTH, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDoc Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Just an update... Today i went to high plains raceway and ran the piss out of my car with no problems. maybe 40 laps (2.6 mile course) at about 4500 ft altitude and about 90 degrees outside. the car ran well. for those having the issues i stated at the beginning of this thread here are the steps i went through: verify alternator is functioning well (putting out enough amperage AT LOAD) verify that intercooler fans fans turn on and are pulling air in the correct direction try an OEM cap on the intercooler reservoir (apparently there have been some fitment issues allowing coolant to spray around the cap) pressure test the intercooler system up to about 20 psi. verify that the water pump is pumping adequate volume (between 4-5 gallons per minute) verify that the fuses are not blown to the pump or fans I think the ultimate problem with my intercooler system was that an air bubble was trapped in the intercooler and therefore heat was never exchanged and the system therefore spilled over My problem was solved by backflushing the entire system with a garden hose. Thanks to Van (Revan Racing) for his help in getting this solved. Kenne Bell and Shelby Autos helped as well. Hope this helps anyone else who may be having the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert M Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Just an update... Today i went to high plains raceway and ran the piss out of my car with no problems. maybe 40 laps (2.6 mile course) at about 4500 ft altitude and about 90 degrees outside. the car ran well. for those having the issues i stated at the beginning of this thread here are the steps i went through: verify alternator is functioning well (putting out enough amperage AT LOAD) verify that intercooler fans fans turn on and are pulling air in the correct direction try an OEM cap on the intercooler reservoir (apparently there have been some fitment issues allowing coolant to spray around the cap) pressure test the intercooler system up to about 20 psi. verify that the water pump is pumping adequate volume (between 4-5 gallons per minute) verify that the fuses are not blown to the pump or fans I think the ultimate problem with my intercooler system was that an air bubble was trapped in the intercooler and therefore heat was never exchanged and the system therefore spilled over My problem was solved by backflushing the entire system with a garden hose. Thanks to Van (Revan Racing) for his help in getting this solved. Kenne Bell and Shelby Autos helped as well. Hope this helps anyone else who may be having the same problem. Ron - Glad to hear that this heat issue was resolved. Is that the 275/335 Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 combo that I see in your track picture?........................... R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDoc Posted July 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Ron - Glad to hear that this heat issue was resolved. Is that the 275/335 Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 combo that I see in your track picture?........................... R yes Robert and it is an excellent combination. very well balanced. too bad i've already used up about half the tread! worth every penny, though... Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert M Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 yes Robert and it is an excellent combination. very well balanced. too bad i've already used up about half the tread! worth every penny, though... Ron How do the PS2's front and rear, compare to other tire combo's that you have used in past track experiences? and especially the 275 vs. 255 on the front? R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDoc Posted July 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 How do the PS2's front and rear, compare to other tire combo's that you have used in past track experiences? and especially the 275 vs. 255 on the front? R yes noticeably better. when i first drove the car on the track i would overpower and oversteer through the corners. now that i'm getting better at 'accellerator modulation' in the turns, i'm working more against understeer now. with this setup, there is less understeer through the corners with the 275's for sure. i was running pretty hard and able to take the corners pretty aggressively. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbackg Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 try an OEM cap on the intercooler reservoir (apparently there have been some fitment issues allowing coolant to spray around the cap) pressure test the intercooler system up to about 20 psi. +1 this happened to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert M Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 yes noticeably better. when i first drove the car on the track i would overpower and oversteer through the corners. now that i'm getting better at 'accellerator modulation' in the turns, i'm working more against understeer now. with this setup, there is less understeer through the corners with the 275's for sure. i was running pretty hard and able to take the corners pretty aggressively. Ron ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Nice!! For aggressive grip on the front, a 255 seemed to be on the thinner side with all of the nose weight. Those were my thoughts when I remembered that 255's were OEM installed on 1994 and 1995 Cobra's and the 1995 Cobra R. More weight up front, as with a GT500 could use a little more tire for sure. I noticed that even with "plain old street driving", the 275's seem to grip much better than the 255's on the front. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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