We got some Competition!!!!

[REAL ONE]

Speedyman: no issues my friend. Not attacking anyone. Just pointing out that saying "ford will be on the run" is not tantamount to saying "competition is a good thing."

 

If what you meant to say was competition is a good thing then you and I agree. Competition is a good thing for us enthusiasts.

 

Cheers.

[VegasMichael]

I like the competition as well. It forces out the best. From what I've read the Z28 will get the same engine as the Caddy CTS-V; in essence, a de-tuned ZR1 engine. 6.2 liter with supercharger.

[TopCat501]

While a supercharged Camaro is definitely in the works, the Z/28 name may sit on the shelf until the lighter next-gen platform is available. You can thank the Boss 302 arrival this year if the Z/28 name is dropped temporarily.

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/11q1/supercharged_2012_chevrolet_camaro_may_not_be_called_z28-future_cars

 

Other details that emerged in a national dealer meeting was:

- magnetic suspension

- 285F / 330R rubber (although many familiar with the current Camaro platform don't believe a 330 tire will fit stock)

 

Personally I think it will come down to which car can put the power down best. The GT500 & Chevy both have more than enough HP but if these leaks about the Camaro are correct I'm thinking the traction problems with the GT500 might give the Chevy the edge. Similar to how the Cadillac CTS-V beats the GT500 off the line

 

I would have to think the magnetic suspension is a bit pricey so perhaps it will be an option like the SVT PP on the current GT500.

 

And if its true, as some here have alluded, that Ford will have a response for Chevy I will be very interested in how Ford goes about improving traction on the GT500. I don't think more HP from Ford would be the total solution

 

Fortunately, bigger tires and magnetic suspension means more weight for the Camaro and it already weighed 250lb more to start with

[shel-b001]

While a supercharged Camaro is definitely in the works, the Z/28 name may sit on the shelf until the lighter next-gen platform is available. You can thank the Boss 302 arrival this year if the Z/28 name is dropped temporarily.

 

http://www.caranddri...z28-future_cars

 

Other details that emerged in a national dealer meeting was:

- magnetic suspension

- 285F / 330R rubber (although many familiar with the current Camaro platform don't believe a 330 tire will fit stock)

 

Personally I think it will come down to which car can put the power down best. The GT500 & Chevy both have more than enough HP but if these leaks about the Camaro are correct I'm thinking the traction problems with the GT500 might give the Chevy the edge. Similar to how the Cadillac CTS-V beats the GT500 off the line

 

I would have to think the magnetic suspension is a bit pricey so perhaps it will be an option like the SVT PP on the current GT500.

 

And if its true, as some here have alluded, that Ford will have a response for Chevy I will be very interested in how Ford goes about improving traction on the GT500. I don't think more HP from Ford would be the total solution

 

Fortunately, bigger tires and magnetic suspension means more weight for the Camaro and it already weighed 250lb more to start with

 

How does the magnetic suspension work ???????????

[TopCat501]

I have no personal experience or knowledge with the GM magnetic ride control but it appears that magnetic fluid in the dampers is used and sensors regulate and control the damping (at all 4 corners independently???) to give the optimal suspension control in the quickest manner possible.

 

Here is the wiki description of the CTS-V: "To improve the handling and comfort, the 2009 CTS-V uses Delphi Corporation’s MagneRide technology. The dampers, filled with magnetorheological fluid, are adjusted based on sensor readings that happen at 1ms intervals"

I believe certain Corvette models use a similar magnetic suspension control.

[SGT0225]

I have no personal experience or knowledge with the GM magnetic ride control but it appears that magnetic fluid in the dampers is used and sensors regulate and control the damping (at all 4 corners independently???) to give the optimal suspension control in the quickest manner possible.

 

Here is the wiki description of the CTS-V: "To improve the handling and comfort, the 2009 CTS-V uses Delphi Corporation’s MagneRide technology. The dampers, filled with magnetorheological fluid, are adjusted based on sensor readings that happen at 1ms intervals"

I believe certain Corvette models use a similar magnetic suspension control.

 

That's it in a nut shell.

 

Many expensive prototypes at the sema and manufacturer auto shows have the technology in them.

 

I think some import luxury vehicles have it also.

[REVENGE]

I don't buy all that naming speculation. It will be called the Z28. I can't understand why people are falling for the bs that it might be named something else. It reminds me of the time when people were saying the SS will be the top model and no higher horsepower model was coming. I never believed that either.

[BIKEBOY]

I don't buy all that naming speculation. It will be called the Z28. I can't understand why people are falling for the bs that it might be named something else. It reminds me of the time when people were saying the SS will be the top model and no higher horsepower model was coming. I never believed that either.

 

+1

 

The marketing team @ Government Motors is more sensitive to public sentiment now, more than ever before. Therefore, the consumer in America knows of the Camaro 'hotrod' as the Z28.

 

If there is to be a hopped up Camaro to compete in the GT500 / SRT8 Chally range...it will be marketed as a Z28, I believe as well. The nameplate is far less important than making the car perform like the customer expects. Therefore, if it ain't broke don't fix it! A Z28 will get the folks into the showrooms once again. As painful as we may think it is guys!

 

Here's the best part, and this is PRECISELY what the op in this thread stated...once these Z28 looky-loos get into the showroom and sit in a Camaro, there will be a large proprtion of them leave without buying after seeing the ridiculous blind spots. Not to mention the silly interior design, and plastic landscaping! Alot of these customers will march right over to Ford dealers and check out our offering in that segment. Just hope there is an SVT dealer close by to them!! :happy feet:

[pony23]

I hope they make it. Competition makes cars better, why improve them if there isn't anyone else to beat. It will pretty much be the new CTS-V coupe in the Camaro skin.

[mach 1 1970]

GM will be bringing it. The question is will Ford respond or refuse to compete like they did when the Trans Am and Z28's of the 90s to early 2000s were kicking butt.

 

The other question is where are the people who after listening to too much fair and balanced reporting predicted GM would never be allowed to build a car like this? According to their "predictions" GM would only be putting out hybrids and 4 cylinders by now.

 

Watch out Ford !! GM's Z/28 is coming back, and the Corvette racing program is great R&D program for future products. It's great to see this icon coming to market in this economy . Maybe we are on our way .

[TopCat501]

The Z/28 name certainly carries more cache with the public in general and is thus the obvious path to take from a marketing standpoint . . . . . .but . . . . . . .

 

I think the Boss 302 LS has made GM give pause to naming the GT500 fighter a Z/28 since IMHO I believe this supercharged Camaro would lose to a Boss 302 LS on a road course (unless the course had a disproportionate amount of long straights). The S/C Camaro will likely have a 400 lbs weight disadvantage to the Boss. It'll beat the Boss on the quarter mile but the quarter-mile is not what everyone remembers the Boss 302 & Z28 for right?

 

So the press will most assuredly make the historically accurate comparison of a Z/28 to the Boss 302 and I'm sure GM would not appreciate the Boss handing the Z an ass whooping as chronicled by R&T, C&D, MT, Autoblog etc etc.

 

You see, GM can't benchmark a Boss 302 LS yet so why commit to a name until you know what you are up against. I truly believe GM is waiting until they can get their hands on a Boss 302 LS. Which I think is smart of them and I find highly entertaining being a Ford guy. Way to go Ford, throwing a monkey wrench in GM's plans but hey when you take years & years to bring to a car to market then your competition may just spring a surprise on you.

 

If the Boss LS bitch-slaps the Z on the road course I'm betting they won't use the Z name. If the Boss LS wins by a relatively small margin then the Marketing guys will probably win out and it'll be called a Z but GM will unleash a cascade of PR pointing out that the Z is a GT500 fighter and not a Boss competitor (which will make me smile) :rolleyes:

[BIKEBOY]

The Z/28 name certainly carries more cache with the public in general and is thus the obvious path to take from a marketing standpoint . . . . . .but . . . . . . .

 

I think the Boss 302 LS has made GM give pause to naming the GT500 fighter a Z/28 since IMHO I believe this supercharged Camaro would lose to a Boss 302 LS on a road course (unless the course had a disproportionate amount of long straights). The S/C Camaro will likely have a 400 lbs weight disadvantage to the Boss. It'll beat the Boss on the quarter mile but the quarter-mile is not what everyone remembers the Boss 302 & Z28 for right?

 

So the press will most assuredly make the historically accurate comparison of a Z/28 to the Boss 302 and I'm sure GM would not appreciate the Boss handing the Z an ass whooping as chronicled by R&T, C&D, MT, Autoblog etc etc.

 

You see, GM can't benchmark a Boss 302 LS yet so why commit to a name until you know what you are up against. I truly believe GM is waiting until they can get their hands on a Boss 302 LS. Which I think is smart of them and I find highly entertaining being a Ford guy. Way to go Ford, throwing a monkey wrench in GM's plans but hey when you take years & years to bring to a car to market then your competition may just spring a surprise on you.

 

If the Boss LS bitch-slaps the Z on the road course I'm betting they won't use the Z name. If the Boss LS wins by a relatively small margin then the Marketing guys will probably win out and it'll be called a Z but GM will unleash a cascade of PR pointing out that the Z is a GT500 fighter and not a Boss competitor (which will make me smile) :rolleyes:

 

 

TopCat, this is great fodder!! I love this.

 

I bleed Ford blue to be sure, but I have to respectfully disagree on a couple things here...if you don't mind?

 

I think you are over analyzing this situation a tad. I doubt that GM would consider the narrow margin of customer base, (this time around, especially) after being admittedly MORE focused on selling fewer, better designed and more 'targeted' cars to the masses. When I say, 'the narrow margin of customer base', I mean that they have vowed now as the NEW General Motors, to build cars with more of the intent to sell cars, and make the stockholders / Gov't. happy. That said.....R&D is not going to design / build a car aimed at a small group of people under the Chevy badge. They have that already in their Vette. The new business model for GM is going to require them to stick to making cars that the 'average' American consumer can and will purchase without hesitation. Again...that said, IMHO, the Z28 moniker makes alot more sense to ALOT more people, than the few guys on their Chevy forums, like ours.

 

If you talk to even a female buyer that may consider a Camaro today, my money says that she would know immediately the Z28 nameplate! If you ask her what a ZR1, for instance, or an LT4 is, you are most likely going to get a deer in the headlights stare!!

 

Now, as for our Blue Oval. We took no bailout, and have weathered the storm, so to speak, on our own merits. Thus, our company, I believe, has the luxury of being able to do a smaller niche car like the BOSS LS. If Ford would have taken money from Obama, the muscle landscape may have been different???

 

[REVENGE]

 

Now, as for our Blue Oval. We took no bailout, and have weathered the storm, so to speak, on our own merits. Thus, our company, I believe, has the luxury of being able to do a smaller niche car like the BOSS LS. If Ford would have taken money from Obama, the muscle landscape may have been different???

 

 

 

 

How would it have been different? Chevy took the bailout and they are still making muscle cars with more power than the competing models from Ford.

[BIKEBOY]

How would it have been different? Chevy took the bailout and they are still making muscle cars with more power than the competing models from Ford.

 

I'm sorry, I knew it would be hard to understand. I don't always articulate what I am trying to say...

 

My point is that if you remember exactly what the incoming GM replacement C.E.O. told the American public about cutting down on models and building ONLY cars that were not only fuel efficient, but that were more readily 'usable', if you will (my words), and cutting out the fat...gas guzzlers, cars that aren't wildly accepted by the public, and just plain 'streamlining' the business, in order to impress and win over the government for the cash handout. One of the original cars that was cut immediately was the Z28, since the Camaro was already on the drawing board for some time before the meltdown, they (the gov't.) agreed with the GM mgmt. to the continuation of the Camaro, just not the 'extreme' Z28. Hence...my point, is that had Ford taken cash, as GM and Chrysler both did, the pressure from the government would have been alot harsher to just keep building mainstream cars. Remember, the bulk of cars manufactured today, are still trucks, SUV's, sedans, and econoboxes. Our Mustangs and the other muscle stuff still only make up a very small percentile of total vehicles produced. The crazy horsepower war has been stopped in it's tracks, compared to how it would have been had we not seen the economic meltdown.

 

In a nutshell, I'm just saying that had the government been responsible for putting a roof over all of the small 3's heads to keep them afloat, the muscle car scene wouldn't even be what it is today.

 

Keep in mind....JMHO

[TopCat501]

TopCat, this is great fodder!! I love this.

 

 

Agree, this is great fun :beerchug: I don't know what the hell GM will wind up doing and at the moment I don't think they do either

 

I just enjoy the thought that Ford has made GM hesitate to call the supercharged Camaro a Z28 because of the inevitable cover stories on ALL the major car rags & websites of BOSS vs Z28. I agree with you that GM would definitely prefer to call it Z28 and at the end of the day SALES may trump PRIDE. But if that Boss 302 LS puts a whipping on the supercharged Z28 it will be on every major car magizine cover. The non-enthusiast won't connect to the historical Trans Am Boss vs Z28 days and will buy the Z28 anyway cuz it was a cool car back in the day but I'm thinking it would be a bit of a black-eye to the Chevy diehards.

 

Here's some info that I think shows GM is seriously in a quandry about the name.

It's just downright funny how GM never discouraged the Chevy forums from promoting the upcoming S/C Camaro as the Z28 but now GM has their Camaro program director leaving posts declaring "Z/28? whoever said we were calling it Z28?" and "We take great care in choosing the correct name for the Camaro". See post #61 & #75 in the link. Strangely, Scott Settlemeir (spelling?) never discouraged the Camaro faithful up until now to not use Z28 as the name for the s/c Camaro. Geez he's posted in the Z28 subforum for years now.

 

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124078&page=3

 

All I know is Ford did right by creating the modern day Boss 302 as a nimble, high revving, road course demon and the modern GT500 as a tire shredding uber HP monster.

Chevy on the other hand finds itself stuck with a wanna-be GT500 killer that they intended to call Z28 to help increase sales but unfortunately for GM will lose to the Boss LS in the envitable historical match-up of Z vs Boss on a road course. Not the worst thing for GM, but somewhere Henry Ford must be smirking :happy feet:

[svttim]

Yep same thing I keep telling those GT500 guys...

 

 

 

Some Shelby GT's took a pretty bad whooping at the hands of a 2011 GT500 at the bash

 

[svttim]

As gear heads, we are lucky that the Z28 is coming back. We have something to compete against stomp and something that will keep improving development of the breed.

 

Don't worry about the GT500 falling behind - it's been well known that the Z28 is coming.

 

I wish the Z28 was developed as a road racer though. Me too Robert

 

[svttim]

LOL, Had more mustangs than I can accurately remember at this point from vintage GTs, Mach1s, SVT /Cobras, and a brief stint with an '08 GT500. Been on the other side also with 6 Corvettes, 2 Z28s and a couple Porsches. Hopefully this validates me to some small degree in your opinion as you seem to have a real need to judge me and my opinions which don't allways seem to be in sync with yours. The rivalry between the Ford and GM Pony Car offerings is soon to become front page news in the enthusiast world and is a good thing. I really can't understand why you have this bizzare habit of attacking virtually every one of my posts on this forum. Lighten up and deal with the fact that there are differing perspectives on many of the issues discussed on this and other enthusiasts forums. Enjoy the ride.

 

 

 

Dont think anyone minds the difference of opinion. But, declaring a winner before the race is run seems premature. We shall see

[XY GTHO Phase III]

I'm sorry, I knew it would be hard to understand. I don't always articulate what I am trying to say...

 

My point is that if you remember exactly what the incoming GM replacement C.E.O. told the American public about cutting down on models and building ONLY cars that were not only fuel efficient, but that were more readily 'usable', if you will (my words), and cutting out the fat...gas guzzlers, cars that aren't wildly accepted by the public, and just plain 'streamlining' the business, in order to impress and win over the government for the cash handout. One of the original cars that was cut immediately was the Z28, since the Camaro was already on the drawing board for some time before the meltdown, they (the gov't.) agreed with the GM mgmt. to the continuation of the Camaro, just not the 'extreme' Z28. Hence...my point, is that had Ford taken cash, as GM and Chrysler both did, the pressure from the government would have been alot harsher to just keep building mainstream cars. Remember, the bulk of cars manufactured today, are still trucks, SUV's, sedans, and econoboxes. Our Mustangs and the other muscle stuff still only make up a very small percentile of total vehicles produced. The crazy horsepower war has been stopped in it's tracks, compared to how it would have been had we not seen the economic meltdown.

 

In a nutshell, I'm just saying that had the government been responsible for putting a roof over all of the small 3's heads to keep them afloat, the muscle car scene wouldn't even be what it is today.

 

Keep in mind....JMHO

 

 

You have got it straight on this. It is all political at GM. You might say they have given Obama there balls in a jar that he keeps in the Oval office just like most married blokes with there wives (if you disagree you are either in denial or getting divorced). I am actually surprised that they have plans to go ahead and make a Z28 (or whatever you want to it) to match up against the GT500 or Boss. It wouldn't surprise me if someone at the White house puts the kibosh on this and it dies until GM have fully paid back the people of the US with interest. Once that happens they can do what ever they want just as Ford is doing right now.

[BIKEBOY]

Guys, one last thing on this, and I don't want to :beatdeadhorse: here, but... I keep ALL of my car mags that I have accumulated since the inception of the S197. Dates back to about ...ohhh...mid 2004-ish.

 

Case in point: As my wife calls it, 'regurgitating' these things, over and over and over again...there is a very curious theme, as you read back issues, whilest on the crapper, on upcoming cars from the Small 3.

 

It's almost as if there was an emergency stoppage at some point in time. If I looked back more seriously, I could almost pinpoint the month of issue from ALL of the major car mags. As you read prior to the meltdown, you see that GM is coming out with the new Camaro...blah blah blah, and they intend on doing a convertible soon, and very near to that release, they are testing the new Z28 down in Australia along with the other Camaro models. As well, Chrysler is very excited about the intro of their NEW Challenger, and the SRT8 is limited the first year to just that, and they will be numbered...blah blah blah...building up the hype for the regular models to follow.....

 

Then something happened! B A N K R U P T C Y scare!!!! Suddenly, all of the talk on the front pages of things to come from the Americans, was almost non-existant! The only talk of upcoming stuff, was that of the Japanese and Euro cars. The American market was 'quiet'. It seemed we had all but closed up shop. The writers had nothing to write about, because the manufacturers weren't talking about the 'future'? All of the talk of the increase of horswepower and bigger and badder cars from Detroit, seemed to halt alltogether! As I kept buying the magazines for my continued enjoyment...I wasn't getting any!!! I for one, don't give a %&$#@ about what Toyota and Kia are planning for the future. And I damn sure don't ever look at what Ferrari and Mercedes are offering, (I skip right over those articles, routinely), becuase they are of no interest to me. Not even to act like I'm informed at one of my wife's parties for work!! Lol!!! They know I'm a car guy, so they expect me to talk about ALL cars when cornered!? Hell...I owned a Bikestore for ten years, and customers would come into the store during the 'Tour' (de-France), and would ask, "have you been following the Tour?" Depending on which customer it was, I would either lie and say oh yeah, or tell them, nope...don't care! But, I digress.....................

 

We were headed for 600 hp in our beloved muscle cars before this meltdown. IMHO. Now, things are cooling off significantly! Our GT500, as a regular mass produced car, with the exception of the ridculously priced Corvette, was and is the best hp for the buck, still today! I can honestly say that if we (FORD) had taken ObamaBucks, the 500 as we know it in the redesigned body would have probably been 'whacked'!...No???

 

I'll step down now. , and I promise this will be my last post on this thread!...but not for the whole forum!!

 

 

BIKEBOY

[REVENGE]

I don't buy all this speculation. It will be called the Z28 AND the car magazines will compare it to the GT500. We all know the us car magazines are biased in favor of the Mustang in any muscle car comparison. Just like I know it GM knows it. They know that no matter how much their car out performs the Mustang the mags will still find a way to declare the Mustang the winner. Knowing that its laughable to think GM would avoid calling their top dog Z28 because of fear of losing some comparo. They have been losing all the comparisons to the Mustang for years ....even when they had the faster car. Nothing will change. I expect the Z28 will come out with 600hp and great traction and be faster than the GT500 in the straight line and road course and will still be losing all comparison tests done by the US magazines.

[bumplime]

I don't buy all this speculation. It will be called the Z28 AND the car magazines will compare it to the GT500. We all know the us car magazines are biased in favor of the Mustang in any muscle car comparison. Just like I know it GM knows it. They know that no matter how much their car out performs the Mustang the mags will still find a way to declare the Mustang the winner. Knowing that its laughabl

e to think GM would avoid calling their top dog Z28 because of fear of losing some comparo. They have been

losing all the comparisons to the Mustang for years

....even when they had the faster car. Nothing will change.

I expect the Z28 will come out with 600hp and great traction and be faster than the GT500 in the straight line

and road course and will still be losing all comparison

tests done by the US magazines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your joking obviously

 

[TopCat501]

Hmmmmm . . . . . . no, unfortunately he is not kidding; I think he is just . . . . . just like his post before the last one (post #73)

 

How would it have been different? Chevy took the bailout and they are still making muscle cars with more power than the competing models from Ford.

 

[speedyman]

Hmmmmm . . . . . . no, unfortunately he is not kidding; I think he is just . . . . . just like his post before the last one (post #73)

 

 

What part of his post(#73) is incorrect?

[REAL ONE]

I don't keep track of who wins in the mag comparisons. But since Revenge posted his statement and Speedyman jumped on board immediatly suppporting it (big surpirse there ) maybe they can post links to all the compros since 2007 so we can see where the Mustang won every one despite being outperformed.

 

I'd love to read them.

 

Thanks. I'll be waiting.

[speedyman]

I don't keep track of who wins in the mag comparisons. But since Revenge posted his statement and Speedyman jumped on board immediatly suppporting it (big surpirse there ) maybe they can post links to all the compros since 2007 so we can see where the Mustang won every one despite being outperformed.

 

I'd love to read them.

 

Thanks. I'll be waiting.

 

 

You certainly do keep track of me don"t you. I just can't seem to understand why you fell the need to respond to every one of my posts with some form of personal attack. Give it a break dude!

[TopCat501]

What part of his post(#73) is incorrect?

 

 

Easy, in the only category I care about which is the Sport 2 Door Coupe . . . . . . Mustang 550HP vs Camaro 426 HP

 

The supercharged Camaro was delayed because of the GM bankruptcy/money problems . . . . . . otherwise it would have been here by now don't you think? The Camaro convertible was delayed also due to the bankruptcy. This was widely reported back when the bankruptcy/money problems was happening.

 

http://www.chevroletinthenews.com/chevrolet-camaro-z28-stalls-again/

[TopCat501]

I don't buy all this speculation. It will be called the Z28 AND the car magazines will compare it to the GT500. We all know the us car magazines are biased in favor of the Mustang in any muscle car comparison. Just like I know it GM knows it. They know that no matter how much their car out performs the Mustang the mags will still find a way to declare the Mustang the winner. Knowing that its laughable to think GM would avoid calling their top dog Z28 because of fear of losing some comparo. They have been losing all the comparisons to the Mustang for years ....even when they had the faster car. Nothing will change. I expect the Z28 will come out with 600hp and great traction and be faster than the GT500 in the straight line and road course and will still be losing all comparison tests done by the US magazines.

 

 

 

Didn't take long to find one where the Camaro won . . . . . . .doesn't Motor Trend count?

 

Camaro won several the 1st year it came out (before the 5.0 returned in the Mustang)

 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_challenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/comparison_winner.html

[TN Red Snake]

I read a comparison article late last year between the camaro and the 5.0 mustang and the camaro was a split second faster, but the mustang was rated a better car overall. I can't remember the mag.

[REVENGE]

I don't feel like going through all the old magazines but i remember Mustang winning against the Camaro even before the 5.0 engine. Us magazines look for a way to declare the mustang a winner whenever they can. I don 't remember many comparison tests of theV6 cars until Ford got rid of the ancient engine. Now you see many comparison tests with the Mustang with its new V6 being declared the winner.

 

 

I like all muscle cars but there is bias in the coverage in favor of theMustang.

 

 

 

The Z28 would have to totally wipe the floor with the Shelby to be declared the winner. If its close then forget it.