Mods and Warranties

[Madlock]

Forgive me if this belongs in a different subject group.

 

Allow me to begin by fully explaining (and admitting) I tend to be as anal-retentive and conservatively "belt and suspenders" as they come. I've never purchased a new vehicle without a full 84/100/0 ESP, and I've never exceeded 3 months or 3,000 miles between oil changes (with Mobil 1 - ALWAYS).

 

This puts me at odds with one of the best parts of Mustang, the ability to modify, increase, and improve its performance - because so many of the best modifications (superchargers, etc.) compromise the warranty - reducing it to one year. Don't misunderstand. It's not that I don't understand that warranties versus potential repair costs are nothing more than a calculated risk - and I could certainly manage to come-up with the money to cover anything that might go wrong, but that doesn't mean either I'd like to or that it'd be easy.

 

For those who DO modify their cars (and I don't mean by sending it to Shelby and receiving a full Shelby warranty in its place), what kind of rationale do you apply? Are you simply willing to live with what, in effect, becomes a 1-year powertrain warranty on your new car? Is there any sort of supplemental warranty extension available that can be bought at the time of the upgrade (presuming it's a bona fide FR part, installed by a FR dealer)? Or is it just a risk you accept and live with? If so, how often does it actually create the kind of mechanical failure that would make one's wallet weep?

 

Please forgive my overt ignorance. I'm just looking for the best information available from the shared experiences of those who've had MUCH more experience than I.

 

Thanks!

[bigsnake]

Forgive me if this belongs in a different subject group.

 

Allow me to begin by fully explaining (and admitting) I tend to be as anal-retentive and conservatively "belt and suspenders" as they come. I've never purchased a new vehicle without a full 84/100/0 ESP, and I've never exceeded 3 months or 3,000 miles between oil changes (with Mobil 1 - ALWAYS).

 

This puts me at odds with one of the best parts of Mustang, the ability to modify, increase, and improve its performance - because so many of the best modifications (superchargers, etc.) compromise the warranty - reducing it to one year. Don't misunderstand. It's not that I don't understand that warranties versus potential repair costs are nothing more than a calculated risk - and I could certainly manage to come-up with the money to cover anything that might go wrong, but that doesn't mean either I'd like to or that it'd be easy.

 

For those who DO modify their cars (and I don't mean by sending it to Shelby and receiving a full Shelby warranty in its place), what kind of rationale do you apply? Are you simply willing to live with what, in effect, becomes a 1-year powertrain warranty on your new car? Is there any sort of supplemental warranty extension available that can be bought at the time of the upgrade (presuming it's a bona fide FR part, installed by a FR dealer)? Or is it just a risk you accept and live with? If so, how often does it actually create the kind of mechanical failure that would make one's wallet weep?

 

Please forgive my overt ignorance. I'm just looking for the best information available from the shared experiences of those who've had MUCH more experience than I.

 

Thanks!

 

 

I've done a good bit of modding in the past and having a mod friendly dealer never hurts and it also depends on the type mods you do. Like internal mods and you blow an engine because of that mod, well your warranty won't help you there but it has to be proven that your mod caused the damage. You will always be taking somewhat of a risk by modding and it's a good idea to have some extra cash stashed away for emergencies. Look for a mod manufacturer who will warranty your particular modification and before buying read up on how that mod has done in the past to give you an idea of the quality of the part.

 

Not sure if you are familiar with the Magnuson Moss warranty act but here's some info.

 

 

I see alot of people asking what performance modifications will do to their warranty or that they are going to wait until the warranty expires before taking any of the stock parts off. The dealer isn't supposed to deny warranty coverage unless something you do actually causes the problem. This is covered under the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act -

 

US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312

 

Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302©) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers. If your vehicle manufacturer fails to honor emission/warranty claims, contact EPA at (202) 260-2080 or www.epa.gov. If federal warranty protection is denied, contact the FTC at (202) 326-3128 or www.ftc.gov. For additional information, check out the following links:

 

 

Guide to Warranty laws

http://law.freeadvice.com/resources/...w_toc_5_87.

 

Warranty info:

http://www.semasan.c...n.aspx?id=60128

[glroy]

my thoughts on the 11 is "let some one else be the first to blow up the aluminum block". Keep it stock for a couple of years and see which way the wind blows on these new motors. the 07-10 pig iron blocks are pretty dam strong and 13k will get you a new short block if needed ( hope not for a few years)

[Madlock]

Thanks for the terrific info and insight.

 

Part of my anal-retentiveness ALSO extends as far as wanting to be Ford-centric with any mods, particularly to the engine itself, so anything I'd do would be within the context of FR parts and a FR shop. My fealty comes as much from my desire to support Ford and loyalty as a shareholder and my OCD.

 

$13K for replacement engine? It makes the Coyote look cheap by comparison. To be honest, if the 5.4 ever blew out of warranty, I'd probably look to replace it with a Coyote (of the day) anyway, as it's likely to be improved as soon as 2012-2013 - and most certainly for the 2014 anniversary year. As much grunt as the Aluminum 5.4 puts forth, my VERY inexperienced opinion is that the Coyote is a much more technologically advanced engine platform than the 5.4 - with the Aluminum 5.4 working much closer to the high end of its capabilities and the 5.0 working more closely to its baseline. Personally, I'm guessing Ford will bring the Shelby back in-house as Cobra, and simply offer it as a supercharged 5.0 - and at a price point that's both lower AND more profitable. But that's another story for another day.

 

I just wish Ford would create a fee-based warranty structure for its superchargers that would allow people to bring them in-line with whatever their vehicle warranties happen to be (i.e. the standard 1 year on the blower only, or a full-vehicle 3/36, or premiums to match the various ESP combinations. I'd sure be willing to pay it as a hedge against risk.

 

On a side note - does anybody believe there'd be any merit to adding the full FR3 handling pack to the SVTPP, or would it also serve to undo much of what the SVTPP's suspension improvements have done?

 

Thanks again!

[Ezkill]

 

$13K for replacement engine? It makes the Coyote look cheap by comparison. To be honest, if the 5.4 ever blew out of warranty, I'd probably look to replace it with a Coyote (of the day) anyway, as it's likely to be improved as soon as 2012-2013 - and most certainly for the 2014 anniversary year. As much grunt as the Aluminum 5.4 puts forth, my VERY inexperienced opinion is that the Coyote is a much more technologically advanced engine platform than the 5.4 - with the Aluminum 5.4 working much closer to the high end of its capabilities and the 5.0 working more closely to its baseline. Personally, I'm guessing Ford will bring the Shelby back in-house as Cobra, and simply offer it as a supercharged 5.0 - and at a price point that's both lower AND more profitable. But that's another story for another day.

 

 

 

 

Yes, the engine is substantially more expensive then the coyote engine in fact it looks to be over double the price. I think this is due in large part to the overall capabilities of the engine which are somewhat substantial. There are many Ford GT's and Shelby's running around with more horsepower then I would ever have a need for. The coyote is a different technology but I'm not sure that I can agree that the current coyote is close to it's baseline while the 5.4L is maxed out. If I were to see some 800+ horsepower coyote engines running reliably for a few years I might be inclined to change my mind. This, however, is not the current reality and the 5.4L is undoubtedly the horse power king when it comes to these two engines. This may or may not change in the future as I don't think anyone really knows what Ford's plans for the next generation really are. The coyote in the boss that is supposedly getting forged internals could possibly hold as much realiable horsepower as the Shelby engine but this question has yet to be answered. The new Roush 5XR package makes 525 HP/465 Torque and has a three year warranty. All of the modifications on the coyote that still allow you to retain a warranty are pretty unimpressive. This could be because stuff will start to break if you go much higher, or it could simply be very conservative.

 

As far as the FRPP suspension goes I've struggled with that one as well. I think the performance package is very good out of the box and it might really be a waste to upgrade/sidegrade it with the FRPP suspension. I'm pretty impressed that Ford has managed to get the car to handle so well and also keep the ride from knocking out your teeth. I would think at the very least the FRPP would me a much harsher ride and I'm not sure it's worth the money. I think if you are going over and above the performance pack you want want to go for gold and purchase a high grade handling package. There are a few vendors on this board that are widely known for greatly improving the Shelby handling. I just don't see the FRPP suspension making enough of a difference to be worth the price of admission. This is largely a personal opinion as i've ridden in a FRPP equipped 2009 and wasn't very impressed. I wouldn't know how it compares to a stock 2009.

[Tob]

The coyote in the boss that is supposedly getting forged internals could possibly hold as much realiable horsepower as the Shelby engine but this question has yet to be answered.

 

The crank will be the same. The pistons will be upgraded. The rods are upgraded from a powder forged rod, to an improved design powder forged rod. They are not a conventionally forged rod.

 

Tob

[BDrool]

Bigsnake, good info thanks.

 

From what I've heard, if you upgrade the S/C at time of purchase, you get a 3/36000 drivetrain warranty from Ford. If you have the same done after purchase then you get 1/12000 drivetrain warranty from ford. If I would have known this, I would have the 660hp S/C now and not contemplating later. So, If you haven't purchased yet and want more power right away, and you have the few extra grand, I would do it right from the get go. Only wish I knew this before I got my '10. Like I said, it's only what I heard...

[Reapyr]

I bought my 11 from a local Ford dealer who actually has a in-house speed shop. I was poking around with them saying 550hp is not enough (I was coming from a 600+ 07 Vette). They were saying oh well just add a pulley, exhaust tune an other minor bolton stuff. I laughed an said "yeah and then youll void my warranty and Im screwed". The Gen. Manager and the speed shop manager said any work they do in their shop, it will be covered whatever warranty you have (I got the 6yr/60k cause I do a lot of driving, like I bought my car on July 10th and already have 6300 miles on the clock). So Im keeping them in mind when it comes to do some work, might pay out the ass for work, but the fact my warranty still covers if the motor blows...and they have to replace it, well worth it.

[florek_gt500]

I bought my 11 from a local Ford dealer who actually has a in-house speed shop. I was poking around with them saying 550hp is not enough (I was coming from a 600+ 07 Vette). They were saying oh well just add a pulley, exhaust tune an other minor bolton stuff. I laughed an said "yeah and then youll void my warranty and Im screwed". The Gen. Manager and the speed shop manager said any work they do in their shop, it will be covered whatever warranty you have (I got the 6yr/60k cause I do a lot of driving, like I bought my car on July 10th and already have 6300 miles on the clock). So Im keeping them in mind when it comes to do some work, might pay out the ass for work, but the fact my warranty still covers if the motor blows...and they have to replace it, well worth it.

 

 

 

What shop is that? I think I saw that you are from FL...I am currently in the lower regions of AL and may want to take a road trip in the near future to a shop that wants to work on my car. The dealerships around here we just about trying to void my warranty just for asking if they could, hehe....

[Reapyr]

It would be a drive from AL, but its Sarasota Ford.

[Rachane]

If your local Ford dealership says it will honor Ford warranties as long as it does any modifications itself, that's fine ... but if you ever take the car to another dealership, all bets are off.

 

Also note that local service managers have a lot of discretion during the vehicle's original warranty, but not sole discretion when it enters Ford-ESP coverage. The ESP program has its own standards and inspectors abve the local dealership. So if your ESP is important to you, leave the car stock.

[bpmurr]

As soon as you mod your car all bets are off. Ford will go out of their way to put any kind of failure on you because they know it's an uphill battle for the owner in this situation.

[BDrool]

How much will the so called "Black Box" in these cars tell?

[Ezkill]

As soon as you mod your car all bets are off. Ford will go out of their way to put any kind of failure on you because they know it's an uphill battle for the owner in this situation.

 

I'd have to agree with this. Everyone will quote you the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act and tell you that the Ford will have to prove the modification caused the failure. While this is a true statement it rarely works out that way in the real world. You would more likely find yourself in a situation were you will be trying to prove that the modification did not cause the failure. At that point it's largely you against a faceless corporation of engineers and techs that have basically said you are at fault. You can fight it, and you may win, but the time and effort involved will rarely justify the cost of the warranty repair if you are succesful. If you decide to mod all bets are off.

 

When and if I decide to mod, especially living in Canada, I fully expect that I'm on my own for most powertrain repairs. For some odd reason even the TVS upgrade done through a dealership speed shop will not allow you to carry your warranty. So when I decide to go ahead and start changing stuff I'll skip a few steps and go straight to the whipple.

[bpmurr]

I'd have to agree with this. Everyone will quote you the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act and tell you that the Ford will have to prove the modification caused the failure. While this is a true statement it rarely works out that way in the real world. You would more likely find yourself in a situation were you will be trying to prove that the modification did not cause the failure. At that point it's largely you against a faceless corporation of engineers and techs that have basically said you are at fault. You can fight it, and you may win, but the time and effort involved will rarely justify the cost of the warranty repair if you are succesful. If you decide to mod all bets are off.

 

When and if I decide to mod, especially living in Canada, I fully expect that I'm on my own for most powertrain repairs. For some odd reason even the TVS upgrade done through a dealership speed shop will not allow you to carry your warranty. So when I decide to go ahead and start changing stuff I'll skip a few steps and go straight to the whipple.

 

 

This is exactly what happened in my case. Third parties looked at my clutch and even though they said it wasn't my mods it didn't matter. Ford just went to the next reason which was track use. After every step Ford just went to another excuse. Very disappointing experience but hopefully others will learn from my situation prior to moding.

[Madlock]

I agree.

 

The only strength of any law is anybody's ability to withstand the process of proving the protection it provides. And was with most things, anybody who has to sue Ford into compliance has already lost - except for maybe Don Quixote, whose business was tilting at windmills. And the fact of the matter is that very few owners have the knowledge or ability to disprove that bolting-on supercharger that ups horsepower by 50% hasn't created some kind of force that exceeded intended design specifications - particularly to a panel of inexperienced third parties asked to decide the outcome.

 

That's why I had hoped SOME kind of additional OEM warranty could be purchased to protect the vehicle when OEM parts are installed by an authorized OEM shop. Otherwise, I'd expect to be footing the bill for anything I did to the vehicle that made it different from the brochure - Magnuson-Moss notwithstanding. It's not worth crying over, it's just reality. Unfortunately for me, the point at which I'd be comfortable doing anything like that is likely to be the point at which a successor model does more, better, for less.

 

I DO wonder, however, how the CAFE fuel standards will eventually impact vehicles like these - as makers may be forced to dumb-down certain vehicles to reach overall compliance - with owners being free to make whatever they want of their vehicles off the lot. As this becomes more prevalent, especially if there's more money to be made from it as it may become more commonplace, I wonder if Ford will ever implement some kind of warranty program to better support these kinds of modifications.

[mullens]

Forgive me if this belongs in a different subject group.

 

Allow me to begin by fully explaining (and admitting) I tend to be as anal-retentive and conservatively "belt and suspenders" as they come. I've never purchased a new vehicle without a full 84/100/0 ESP, and I've never exceeded 3 months or 3,000 miles between oil changes (with Mobil 1 - ALWAYS).

 

This puts me at odds with one of the best parts of Mustang, the ability to modify, increase, and improve its performance - because so many of the best modifications (superchargers, etc.) compromise the warranty - reducing it to one year. Don't misunderstand. It's not that I don't understand that warranties versus potential repair costs are nothing more than a calculated risk - and I could certainly manage to come-up with the money to cover anything that might go wrong, but that doesn't mean either I'd like to or that it'd be easy.

 

For those who DO modify their cars (and I don't mean by sending it to Shelby and receiving a full Shelby warranty in its place), what kind of rationale do you apply? Are you simply willing to live with what, in effect, becomes a 1-year powertrain warranty on your new car? Is there any sort of supplemental warranty extension available that can be bought at the time of the upgrade (presuming it's a bona fide FR part, installed by a FR dealer)? Or is it just a risk you accept and live with? If so, how often does it actually create the kind of mechanical failure that would make one's wallet weep?

 

Please forgive my overt ignorance. I'm just looking for the best information available from the shared experiences of those who've had MUCH more experience than I.

 

Thanks!

As others have said, once you mod with anything more than a CAI or mufflers, any repairs can be denied if they connect it to the failure. And is isn't hard to do so. You can try to fight it with the MM Act but bottom line is if they want to push it Ford has the high price lawyers the average man just can't comptete with. Win or lose it will wind up costing you more than it's worth.

 

As far as rationale, common sense prevails. If you tune to the edge, you're taking chances. I try to keep it as much Ford Racing as possible, especially the tune. Yes the pro cal is conservative and you are leaving some HP on on the table, but I know my motor won't grenade. Preventing warranty problems is better than fighting them.