Traction?

[kpevin]

The ws6 sounds like a fun car. General consensus among the magazine reviews is that the 2011 GT500 SVT hooks up better than earlier GT500s. Credit probably goes to the lower control arms and new tires on the svt versions the mags have tested.. As someone mentioned, the most effective launch techique developed so far seems to be something like a 2500 RMP launch with clutch feathering to get traction. I can confirm that it does work much better than a 4000+ RPM drop clutch. From a roll, I'll have to check. I don't recall much problem, but usually I've been well into 1st already or even in 2nd before getting serious and still haven't had much problem embarassing anyone who wanted to play. Except for a recent Nissan Sentra sedan, I heard him chirp the tires off the line when I looked over to see what was attempting to race, I started laughing so hard at his slow motion launch, and that he was even trying, that I forgot I should press the throttle or do do something to keep myself off the Nissan Sentra Type R boards as a kill

 

Anyway, most reviews now seem to indicate that the 2011 SVT GT500 is a low 12 sec car stock and that it is still somewhat traction limited given the HP it has and temprature sensitive given the supercharger doesn't like hot weather. To get into the 11's stock you would have to look at stuff like a GT-4, higher end vettes, Ferrari's and 911 Turbo. There are less driver involved ways to play in 12's, notably the BMW M3, Mercedes C series AMG, and Caddy CTS-V automatics.

 

 

I dont have any traction problems at all, its been in the 90s since I brought this thing home, plus I'm around 1400' elevation. I'm lucky to haze the tires a little in 1st nailing it from 5-10mph and get a little chirp ion the 1-2 shift with the TC off, I'm sure if dropped the clutch at 4000rpm it would but I dont see the point of that. I'll have to wait a couple months until I have to worry about traction thats for sure. Either way a 500+hp 4000lb manual transmission car with anything except decent drag radials and some suspension mods isnt what I consider a good stoplight racer.

[rhlgt500]

So I did try a few 5-10 mph rolling launches on my drive this morning. With and without traction control it hooked solidly in first. Fast shifts to 2nd broke the rear end loose with a bit of sideways drift if the road wasn't perfect. Slightly slower shifts on a good road and it stayed hooked. Traction control on quickly countered any spin and sideways drift and it didn't seem that much slower. Traction control off was spinning for a while on a hard 1-2 shift and definitely slowed things down. Wasn't able to try the track mode out. I'd buy one again

[2010KonaBlueGT]

So I did try a few 5-10 mph rolling launches on my drive this morning. With and without traction control it hooked solidly in first. Fast shifts to 2nd broke the rear end loose with a bit of sideways drift if the road wasn't perfect. Slightly slower shifts on a good road and it stayed hooked. Traction control on quickly countered any spin and sideways drift and it didn't seem that much slower. Traction control off was spinning for a while on a hard 1-2 shift and definitely slowed things down. Wasn't able to try the track mode out. I'd buy one again

 

 

I've done two slow rolling blasts using different shift points...and not necessarily on purpose (the shift point RPM).

 

On one I hit the chip *hard* and then shifted to second. I just flat-out wasn't paying attention to the engine revs and it spun up on me much quicker than expected (in 1st gear). When I shited to 2nd it took of okay but didn't spin the tires AT ALL.

 

On another, where I *was* paying close attention to the eng. RPM, I shifted a little before the rev limit...I'm guessing about 5800 RPM. It was a MUCH stronger pull and in fact that's when I left my big long ass SS stripes I've mentioned a few times. Needless to say, *I* was impressed.

 

I attribute the difference to being in the power band on the "good shift" and not in the second. I also have to give *some* credit to the 'non SS shift" to the road.....rough vs. smoothER.

 

I know when we used to street race out in Salinas CA there were two different roads we would race on. And it was all depending on what tires the person racing had on their car. We'd use either a rough (as in grit, not as in bouncy) surface or a smooth surface (Harkins Road or John St, both out in the Ag fields).

 

The rough surface gave you MUCH better traction on DOT tires and the smooth surface was considerably better with sticky Street/Race tires.

 

I still think the lower shift point played more of a major role in the difference with my two comparisons though.

 

 

Just my observation,

Phill

[rhlgt500]

My observations certainly weren't at all scientifc, just obeservations from a holiday morning drive, take them for what the are worth. I agree on the pavement making a huge difference, maybe even more than shift points, and none of my attempts where under the same conditions. Coincidentally my drive took me into the Salinas general area, though that is probably a strech, Watsonville area anyway. I came over Hecker Pass and almost into Watsonville, then headed back up N. to the bay area through Corralitos to avoid the mess that is highway 1 through Aptos/Santa Cruz on a holiday weekend..

[JWG223]

A chirp or a slight peel on 1-2 is about what I would expect from a properly balanced vehicle.

 

What rims are you putting these 295/35/19's on? Do you have any clearance issues? I PM'ed a guy about 315/35/20's and he said he had to remove the bump-stop brackets (I assume those rubber things for when you take the car off-road and jump logs in it while chasing a GT-R in which the driver has turned VDC off and is mudding/in snow).

[JWG223]

So I did try a few 5-10 mph rolling launches on my drive this morning. With and without traction control it hooked solidly in first. Fast shifts to 2nd broke the rear end loose with a bit of sideways drift if the road wasn't perfect. Slightly slower shifts on a good road and it stayed hooked. Traction control on quickly countered any spin and sideways drift and it didn't seem that much slower. Traction control off was spinning for a while on a hard 1-2 shift and definitely slowed things down. Wasn't able to try the track mode out. I'd buy one again

 

 

Sounds good. It also sounds like Ford put a very functional TC setup in this car. If they offered a launch-control like in the 'vette, I think that would be absurdly cool.

 

PS. How are those new for '11 LCA's? Tire-hop any?

[rhlgt500]

Sounds good. It also sounds like Ford put a very functional TC setup in this car. If they offered a launch-control like in the 'vette, I think that would be absurdly cool.

 

PS. How are those new for '11 LCA's? Tire-hop any?

 

Haven't experienced any hop in mine, the new set up seems to be working.

[JWG223]

Haven't experienced any hop in mine, the new set up seems to be working.

 

Same thing another poster said. I see a trend

[jsarkis]

Same thing another poster said. I see a trend

 

 

Once you get sticky tires on it and "hook up" you'll realize you still have wheel hop / axle movement unfortunately. Most don't have wheel hop when they spin the tires (We'll know for sure once you 11's slap on some DR/Slicks and hit the track). They lowerd the 11's slightly so you do have a lower center of gravity (should help some), but from what I can tell it's the same control arms on the new models (maybe I'm wong).

 

jwg223: Stock rims with the 295/35/19's, you can go to a 305 with no clearance issues from all I've seen and heard. Some say you can go to a 315 before having issues.

[kpevin]

Once you get sticky tires on it and "hook up" you'll realize you still have wheel hop / axle movement unfortunately. Most don't have wheel hop when they spin the tires (We'll know for sure once you 11's slap on some DR/Slicks and hit the track). They lowerd the 11's slightly so you do have a lower center of gravity (should help some), but from what I can tell it's the same control arms on the new models (maybe I'm wong).

 

jwg223: Stock rims with the 295/35/19's, you can go to a 305 with no clearance issues from all I've seen and heard. Some say you can go to a 315 before having issues.

 

 

 

Actually lowering the cars changes the angle of the lower control arms in the wrong direction, thats why they sell LCA relocation brackets.

 

The reason the 2011s hop less (if in fact they do) is because of stiffer bushings in the control arms and stiffer lower arms. The hop comes when the tires spin and are trying to hook, if the car dead hooks then hop isnt an issue. Most people will see hop when they go to the dragstrip on stock tires, while dragstrips work great with softer compound tires they usually dont work very well with stock tires unless the prep is really kept after. I could put on of my 275 drag radial cars on the bumper at the same track while stock mustangs and corvettes spun the whole way down a couple minutes later.

 

Most likely if you use a set of bias tires, ET streets non-radial) or Hoosier QTPs that will reduce the hop some as well since the tire will absorb some of it. Harder drag radials like Nittos may make it worse.

 

Its funny that Evan Smith was able to run mid 11s with a stock 2010 and 17" ET streets and didnt complain about the hop, I havent really experienced any hop since I havent spun the tires really. But from what I read I'm pretty sure it would hop like mad in the fall when the tires dont grip as well and the engine is making a lot more power..

[jsarkis]

Your right about the hop, I didn't expain it very well. It's the hook, spin, hook.. when you have problems. Not with a pure hook, or pure spin are you going to see issues like wheel hop.

 

I didn't know they put stiffer lca's on the new 11's, good to know they look identical.

[kpevin]

Your right about the hop, I didn't expain it very well. It's the hook, spin, hook.. when you have problems. Not with a pure hook, or pure spin are you going to see issues like wheel hop.

 

I didn't know they put stiffer lca's on the new 11's, good to know they look identical.

 

 

If you look at the pics of the 2011s they look like two 2010 pieces welded together, my 2010 is a one sided stamped thing with some an extra piece of metal riveted to it on each end to stiffen it.

 

I have quite a bit of experience with stock suspension drag cars and wheel hop is an issue with most stock setups, have to remember most cars cars arent capable of spinning the tires like these, plus soft bushings on a heavy car doesnt help either. Its always a compromise between a decent ride and less deflection. Its simple enough to bolt on some rod ended upper and lower arms but it will ride like a truck (and sound like one when the rod ends loosen up), I'm not a huge fan of the plastic bushings since some twist is a good thing on a daily driver and they tend to wear out fairly quick. Same with changing the LCA angle, if you want to plant the tires harder then the relocation brackets work great, but if you want to autocross the car it changes the dive characteristics some and may make it harder to drive.

 

Cant have it all, personally I can put up with a little wheel hop for a nicer overall ride. I've read some guys say they just changed out the LCAs on 2010s and the hop was gone and just as many people say they changed out the UCA and the hop was gone so who knows. Myself I wouldnt even consider taking one of these to the dragstrip without a set of good tires, LCAs, UCA, LCA relocation brackets and a better driveshaft,, but if I go to the track I want people to say, 'wow that car runs good' and not 'wow look at that slow $50K mustang getting beat by a SRT4 neon.'

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Its funny that Evan Smith was able to run mid 11s with a stock 2010 and 17" ET streets and didnt complain about the hop.

 

 

People continue to use Evan Smith's record setting run as a guideline for *all* GT500's. How many times have you see his run quoted on this forum?

 

I think it's important to note that for all intents and purposes, Even Smith is a *professional* driver.

 

You and me ain't gonna get the same ET's that Evan Smith got, that's just fact!

 

You and me ain't gonna drive through a massive wheel hop like Evan Smith can.

 

 

And that's the facts,

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

I didn't know they put stiffer lca's on the new 11's, good to know they look identical.

 

 

Look at a picture of the inside and outside. They are 'double wall" on both sides now where the 10's had a open side.

 

 

Phill

[rhlgt500]

Your right about the hop, I didn't expain it very well. It's the hook, spin, hook.. when you have problems. Not with a pure hook, or pure spin are you going to see issues like wheel hop.

 

I didn't know they put stiffer lca's on the new 11's, good to know they look identical.

 

 

My last two cars where 911's so I really got to know and love wheel hop. With the engine behind/over the rear axle shifting relative to the body/tires as the car took off, the spin, grab, bounce, clank, grab, spin, grab, clank, bounce, spin, hook up, maybe if you were lucky, on a 911 with a 6500 rpm drop clutch was all sort of insane. Porsche has started to offer dynamic engine mounts (like the magnetic controlled shocks) that stiffen under acceleration to quash the violence.

 

So far nothing like that on the stock 2011 GT500 svt. As far as hop with drag radials, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Stock vehicles are generally very well balanced to their design goals these days. Changing a single major performance component such as tires to a very high performance, use specific, one (drag radials) just isn't likely to be without cost in some other aspect of use. Negative performance (wheel hop) is certainly possible, even likely, when the change pushes other componets (say LCA, UCA, brushings) past their limits.

 

While not a drag race toy, or even a car, I went through at least 3 complete suspension (shocks, springs, links) builds on my last truck to get handling/performance to where I thought it was acceptable.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/rhld90

[kpevin]

People continue to use Evan Smith's record setting run as a guideline for *all* GT500's. How many times have you see his run quoted on this forum?

 

I think it's important to note that for all intents and purposes, Even Smith is a *professional* driver.

 

You and me ain't gonna get the same ET's that Evan Smith got, that's just fact!

 

You and me ain't gonna drive through a massive wheel hop like Evan Smith can.

 

 

And that's the facts,

Phill

 

 

 

 

I'm just saying that there was no wheel hop complaints which was kind of odd, believe me if it wasnt my car I would drive through wheelhop with the best of them, thats the fact lol.

 

i have had my share of fast manual trans cars, I was driving a 10 second BBC camaro wth a proshifted hemi crash box 25 years and have built and raced numerous manual trans cars and have beat the axles out of a couple with wheelhop. 03-04 cobras and 4th f-bodies are bad hoppers stock as well so its not just these. Evan Smith is a racer and when he ran the 2010 it was in good weather at a good track. Its a lot different when you are sitting in the crowded staging lanes in las vegas on a 100 degree day or you have the track rented with the prep on kill on a 50 degree minus DA day.

 

Not taking anything away from Mr Smith, he is a good driver for sure, but there are many good manual transmission drivers out there. I always take ANY magazine time with a grain of salt good or bad since there are tons of variables.

[kpevin]

My last two cars where 911's so I really got to know and love wheel hop. With the engine behind/over the rear axle shifting relative to the body/tires as the car took off, the spin, grab, bounce, clank, grab, spin, grab, clank, bounce, spin, hook up, maybe if you were lucky, on a 911 with a 6500 rpm drop clutch was all sort of insane. Porsche has started to offer dynamic engine mounts (like the magnetic controlled shocks) that stiffen under acceleration to quash the violence.

 

So far nothing like that on the stock 2011 GT500 svt. As far as hop with drag radials, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Stock vehicles are generally very well balanced to their design goals these days. Changing a single major performance component such as tires to a very high performance, use specific, one (drag radials) just isn't likely to be without cost in some other aspect of use. Negative performance (wheel hop) is certainly possible, even likely, when the change pushes other componets (say LCA, UCA, brushings) past their limits.

 

While not a drag race toy, or even a car, I went through at least 3 complete suspension (shocks, springs, links) builds on my last truck to get handling/performance to where I thought it was acceptable.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/rhld90

 

 

Yea, I have been in a couple modded 911s, not driving, but insane is an understatement dropping the clutch.

 

Worse hop I have experienced was an 03 Cobra on drag radials, owner told me to have at it at the track no matter what. That thing hopped so bad I couldnt even see out the window, until the axle broke

[blazeone]

Got part of my traction today. My CCW's will be here this Friday :happy feet:

 

[kpevin]

Got part of my traction today. My CCW's will be here this Friday :happy feet:

 

 

 

Looking forwards to some pics.

[Ezareth]

Thought Smith got 11.95 on with the Stock 10s? Bit worse than "Mid" 11s which I think he ran on ETs.

 

On the traction and rain I'll say one thing, for everyone complaining about Goodyear F1s, they have the best rain traction of any tire I've played with. With my Saleen I could almost hook up as well in the rain as I could on dry as long as it wasn't a torrent.

 

So far I've experienced zero wheel hop on my '11 vert and I have no complaints on traction at all. I'm able to do a pretty hard launch in first(3500-4000) while only barely feathering the clutch and drop it into second 100% with only a split second of spin in second, after that I can't so much as chirp in third. The ricers around here won't give me a break so I'm getting a lot of practice launching.

[JWG223]

Thought Smith got 11.95 on with the Stock 10s? Bit worse than "Mid" 11s which I think he ran on ETs.

 

On the traction and rain I'll say one thing, for everyone complaining about Goodyear F1s, they have the best rain traction of any tire I've played with. With my Saleen I could almost hook up as well in the rain as I could on dry as long as it wasn't a torrent.

 

So far I've experienced zero wheel hop on my '11 vert and I have no complaints on traction at all. I'm able to do a pretty hard launch in first(3500-4000) while only barely feathering the clutch and drop it into second 100% with only a split second of spin in second, after that I can't so much as chirp in third. The ricers around here won't give me a break so I'm getting a lot of practice launching.

 

 

Do you have any modifications to the vehicle?

 

As to F1GSD3's, yes, they hooked almost as well on wet roads as they did on dry for me. Loved them.

[Ezareth]

Do you have any modifications to the vehicle?

 

As to F1GSD3's, yes, they hooked almost as well on wet roads as they did on dry for me. Loved them.

 

 

Only the Light Bar. Nothing Performance.

 

Would be nice if there were more lights around here that didn't have highway patrol hide-aways nearby. Every time I race I'm watching more for cops than the road or my tach.

[JWG223]

Only the Light Bar. Nothing Performance.

 

Would be nice if there were more lights around here that didn't have highway patrol hide-aways nearby. Every time I race I'm watching more for cops than the road or my tach.

 

 

So OEM setup in your car, with TC totally off, you can speed-shift into 2nd at redline and only get a chirp and tiny kick? (Speedshifting to me = full use of the clutch, while lifting FULLY off the throttle and re-applying it once the shift is completed rapidly. Powershifting to me is keeping the vehicle at WOT while manipulating the shifter and clutch. Pro-shifted to me means WOT, clutch-less shifting with a specially built transmission.)

 

Some people confuse me with all those terms, so I gave MY definitions so I won't be con fused

[Ezareth]

So OEM setup in your car, with TC totally off, you can speed-shift into 2nd at redline and only get a chirp and tiny kick? (Speedshifting to me = full use of the clutch, while lifting FULLY off the throttle and re-applying it once the shift is completed rapidly. Powershifting to me is keeping the vehicle at WOT while manipulating the shifter and clutch. Pro-shifted to me means WOT, clutch-less shifting with a specially built transmission.)

 

Some people confuse me with all those terms, so I gave MY definitions so I won't be con fused

 

 

Was thinking last night, I've been doing launches in "sport" mode and while I can't really "feel" it kick in it probably is the reason I've been experiencing so little spin in first and second. I can still break loose if I dump the clutch and go full throttle in first, I don't think I could do a burnout otherwise. Second gear though I'm dumping the clutch and get a bit of chirp and a slight shift and that's it.

 

I'll see if I can do a few TC-less launches tonight and check my RPMs to see how much "sport mode" really affects everything. I know with TC full on I can totally feel it kick in.

[JWG223]

Was thinking last night, I've been doing launches in "sport" mode and while I can't really "feel" it kick in it probably is the reason I've been experiencing so little spin in first and second. I can still break loose if I dump the clutch and go full throttle in first, I don't think I could do a burnout otherwise. Second gear though I'm dumping the clutch and get a bit of chirp and a slight shift and that's it.

 

I'll see if I can do a few TC-less launches tonight and check my RPMs to see how much "sport mode" really affects everything. I know with TC full on I can totally feel it kick in.

 

 

My WS6 had a pretty-good traction control system. On the 1-2 shift when the tires needed replaceing (read: 30K miles and bald) it would barely chirp with TC on. WIth TC off, it was a hair more lively. You could not feel TC limiting you on the 1-2.

[MichaelP]

Please post pictures of that. I am in the same boat with my 2011. If I could buy a 305 x 19" DR I would. I think a 20" wheel will just add weight. I would love to see 18" wheels on a 2010-11.

 

 

 

19" stock in front. 18" in rear with MT's DR.

 

M.

 

 

 

[kpevin]

Thought Smith got 11.95 on with the Stock 10s? Bit worse than "Mid" 11s which I think he ran on ETs.

 

On the traction and rain I'll say one thing, for everyone complaining about Goodyear F1s, they have the best rain traction of any tire I've played with. With my Saleen I could almost hook up as well in the rain as I could on dry as long as it wasn't a torrent.

 

So far I've experienced zero wheel hop on my '11 vert and I have no complaints on traction at all. I'm able to do a pretty hard launch in first(3500-4000) while only barely feathering the clutch and drop it into second 100% with only a split second of spin in second, after that I can't so much as chirp in third. The ricers around here won't give me a break so I'm getting a lot of practice launching.

 

 

 

Yes, he ran mid 11s with the ET streets, 11.9x on the stock tires. If you look at the fastest 1/4 mile list on SVTperformance.com the fastest 100% stock 2010 was 11.36 on slicks and the same guy ran a 12.08 on the stock tires so its not just 'magic' that makes these cars fast. Its cool weather and traction.

 

My point was not the ET he ran, but if the hop on these are so bad you would have thought someone would have mentioned it, until it cools off around here I wont get to see because like you I have no traction issues at all. I'm sure if I sidestepped the clutch at 5000rpm it would spin the tires but its the '100 days of summer heat' in these parts so doing burnouts on the street isnt a good idea.

 

I'll have to go to a local dragstrip one of these days and try it, just been too hot to do anything, if going to spin and hop it will happen at one of the local tracks here. I just hate to get started with the whole dragstrip thing with a convertible. I have no self control when I start modding

[kpevin]

Was thinking last night, I've been doing launches in "sport" mode and while I can't really "feel" it kick in it probably is the reason I've been experiencing so little spin in first and second. I can still break loose if I dump the clutch and go full throttle in first, I don't think I could do a burnout otherwise. Second gear though I'm dumping the clutch and get a bit of chirp and a slight shift and that's it.

 

I'll see if I can do a few TC-less launches tonight and check my RPMs to see how much "sport mode" really affects everything. I know with TC full on I can totally feel it kick in.

 

 

Sport mode does have a little traction control, I always try with the TC off since its easier to do then putting it in sport mode.

[JWG223]

SO...ummm...how did the TC-off test go? I am hoping no-news is good news : /

[COBRA32]

I can tell that the 11's with the PP do not wheel hop. The 2010's do I know because thats what I trade in for the 2011. The control arms, panhard Bar and other Mods cured it on the 11. I have driven the car about 1600 miles so far and not one wheelhop incident. The 2010 I had wheelhoped all the time it was spinning, no such problem with the 2011 PP GT500.