Is SA missing out with no 'new' SGTs ?

[John Canfield]

Bear with me, if you will. I'm seeing a lot of great new product coming out of Shelby American, but all priced well over $50k as far as complete cars are concerned. I am not including the post-title packages that are being offered only because I don't think they are going to be looked at later down the road like the SGTs, GT-Hs, GT-350s and GT500s, SSs, et al. will be.

With the new Coyote powered cars getting ready to hit the road, I am a bit surprised that there is no plan (as far as I know, which I certainly don't know everything) for a take on the SGT package that we all came to know and love in the '07/'08 model year. I think the new car will be a great base for a new SGT, and if it would carry 440-450hp, with the requesite mods could bring in those who could spend $40k or so, while the stickers (and ADMs) on the GT500s and GT350s keep them out of the sandbox.

Just a thought...

[motorjock205]

Personally, I hope they don't make any more SGT's...they overdid it when they made so many 07 models and did it just about right with the 08 models...a little more exclusive and hopefully worth more somewhere down the road...of course, mine will have a ton of miles on it and I'll be dead and gone, but someone is going to have a great car after I'm gone.

[07SGT4578]

Let's hope not.

 

Chris

[springer]

Bear with me, if you will. I'm seeing a lot of great new product coming out of Shelby American, but all priced well over $50k as far as complete cars are concerned. I am not including the post-title packages that are being offered only because I don't think they are going to be looked at later down the road like the SGTs, GT-Hs, GT-350s and GT500s, SSs, et al. will be.

With the new Coyote powered cars getting ready to hit the road, I am a bit surprised that there is no plan (as far as I know, which I certainly don't know everything) for a take on the SGT package that we all came to know and love in the '07/'08 model year. I think the new car will be a great base for a new SGT, and if it would carry 440-450hp, with the requesite mods could bring in those who could spend $40k or so, while the stickers (and ADMs) on the GT500s and GT350s keep them out of the sandbox.

Just a thought...

 

 

 

The SS (Super Snake) is a post-title car.

 

As far as another pre-title SGT, I don't see it happening again.

[texaggie]

I personally think an '11 SGT would be a great idea. It wouldn't lessen the value of any of the other models because it is based on a compeletly different gen of mustang. keep production low, and still stay true to the original idea of high performance for a fair cost. Personally I feel that when these cars get into german car prices they should be better than those cars all the way around just to keep that historical idea alive. I was actually hoping that the GT350 would be the car to fill the SGT slot instead of an aftermarket upgrade. That would have been a brilliant move on Shelby's and Ford's part. Imagine what kind of craze a fully warranted pre-title GT350 in the low $40K range would have made in the car market. They would have sold out pre production. While I'm off in dream land why have they not offored a candy or redfire red color option on any year model of the GT500? That darker red with white stripes would have been an amazing color combo.

[WildAzCat]

As far as another pre-title SGT, I don't see it happening again.

 

 

From your mouth to gods hands... or Mr Shelby

[James Hill]

Having a SGT, and the SGT being pre-title, thats reason enough to NEVER get rid of it. Thats why I was mildly dissapointed to see the new GT350 was a post title car. I was thinking on how to be able to purchase a new GT350, when it hit me.......

 

If you already have a pre-title SGT, would you not be ahead by sending it to Shelby for the SGT/SR upgrade? It seems to me it would be just as good as the new GT350, remain a pre-titled car, and a little more exclusive? I would think that you could also save around 35-40K.

 

Any thoughts?

[SGT4265]

No more SGT's. Part of the appeal for the Boss cars (302/429) is the 2 year run.

Theres plenty of specialty Shelbys out there already.

[mikewheels]

My car isn't a year old on the road yet, less than 3k miles and it's worth about 20k less than I paid right now. A new GT is about 35k so a SGT version would come in around 45k or so I would think. With all the different versions post title available right now the only thing the '07/'08s (and KRs) have going for them is their pre-title pedigree which still doesn't mean much. The fact that the new V6 has about as much power as the 4.6 doesn't help either. A little rarity is the only thing that will save them down the road I think.

[William Rodgers]

I think it would be a much better success this time due to the new Engine. It would certainly bother Roush and Saleen.

[John Canfield]

I do stand corrected on the SS being a post-title car. I knew that, I think I was thinking 'KR' and wrote 'SS'.

I agree with the Aggie (I live in College Station long ago, when there was nothing but A&M, a U-Tote-Em and an A&W...and the renovated army barracks we lived in that were passed off as apartments) on the idea that this is a great new platform to launch a more price-based car (OK, it doesn't have to be called an SGT, but GT350 got moved way upmarket, not what I expected), especially with an all new engine that begs for some snake oil to be rubbed on it. If this were to happen (OK, just call it a Shelby Mustang) and limit production to a few thousand units per year so dealers are loaded down with unsold cars and the guys and gals in Vegas will have lots more to, and we'd have a really cool car to gawk at or buy (funds dependant, of course).

[Frank S]

I'd say there are a few SGT owners who may eventually benefit from the pre-title status of their cars. That'd be the ones who resisted the urge to modify their cars, or do only easily-reversible modifications. Not many answering that description around here, I bet.

 

It's been pretty clear over the last few years that Ford is paying attention to what buyers do with Mustangs. Every new release includes some of the most popular post-sale modifications. Whether or not it is just to run the after-marketers out of business, or to get their fingers on a slice of that part of the pie, the result is that there is less and less a new Mustang buyer has to do to have a very satisfactory car, and less and less he can do without going altogether bonkers. There are and will always be buyers who are driven to "personalize" their vehicles, but it is harder and harder to do so without slapping some really weird s**t on a car. I mean, look at that ugly thing someone is marketing as a retro-face on a recent Mustang. It looks like Andy Gump without the mustache.

 

Now, with way too much horsepower already available in the 2011 GT, a Shelby Mustang has to be pretty far out (and costly) to set itself apart from the over-the-counter Ford Mustangs. It's a difficult job for product planners. Shelby seems to have got the mix right, and may be able to sell all the GT350 upgrades they can produce, but unless they figure out a way to smooth out the production delays and shifting specifications they ran up against in the Terlingua cars, the cars will not only be too expensive but way late to the hands of the buyers. Loyalty can generate just so much patience.

 

Any road, there's always something interesting, exciting, and sometimes surprising, coming out of Shelby. More power to them, to coin a phrase.

[backafter20]

I don't think we'll see any more pre-title Shelbys in the future, for a couple of reasons. First, I don't think the SGTs were considered that much of a success. Ford didn't advertise or invest in them, so even many Mustang enthusiasts don't know what they are. Even if you spend a lot of time on The Mustang Source, you could easily not notice that SGTs were ever made. They just don't get much press or discussion. (Of course they do here, but that's to be expected.) SGTs lingered on the dealer's lots way too long, and weren't the big money makers the dealers were hoping for like the GT500s were at first. Then on top of that were the quality issues that all of us helped to emphasize so well. Rusting hood pins, rusting exhaust tips, spotting stripes, stripe wrinkles, and of course the infamous hood scoop. All this adds up to something less than what Ford, the dealers, or Shelby had in mind. I can't imagine what it cost SA to fix all those issues through the dealers, but it had to put a damper on the excitement a bit. Now, this doesn't detract, for me, what is IMHO the best thing Shelby has done since 1968. I can't imagine trading my SGT for anything else. It is exactly what I wanted and I wouldn't change a thing, including it's exclusivity. (Well, ok, I'll add the SC eventually.)

 

Second, Mr. Shelby has plenty of competition now, like Roush, Steeda, Saleen, Foose?, and even Ford. It's probably financially safer, easier, and less of a headache just to deal with Ford and SVT for the mainstream buyer, and keep their business smaller doing post-title mods for the Shelby-philes. Amy has mentioned before how SA is not a gigantic corporation, but a handful of dedicated enthusiasts like us. Gentlemen, we have a very rare and desireable, pre-title Shelby, made at Shelby as in the 60's, in a true image of the original GT-350. We may not have 500 horsepower (ok, not all of us) but this is the car to have. In my opinion.

[FiaCobra]

I don't think we'll see any more pre-title Shelbys in the future, for a couple of reasons. First, I don't think the SGTs were considered that much of a success. Ford didn't advertise or invest in them, so even many Mustang enthusiasts don't know what they are. Even if you spend a lot of time on The Mustang Source, you could easily not notice that SGTs were ever made. They just don't get much press or discussion. (Of course they do here, but that's to be expected.) SGTs lingered on the dealer's lots way too long, and weren't the big money makers the dealers were hoping for like the GT500s were at first. Then on top of that were the quality issues that all of us helped to emphasize so well. Rusting hood pins, rusting exhaust tips, spotting stripes, stripe wrinkles, and of course the infamous hood scoop. All this adds up to something less than what Ford, the dealers, or Shelby had in mind. I can't imagine what it cost SA to fix all those issues through the dealers, but it had to put a damper on the excitement a bit. Now, this doesn't detract, for me, what is IMHO the best thing Shelby has done since 1968. I can't imagine trading my SGT for anything else. It is exactly what I wanted and I wouldn't change a thing, including it's exclusivity. (Well, ok, I'll add the SC eventually.)

 

Second, Mr. Shelby has plenty of competition now, like Roush, Steeda, Saleen, Foose?, and even Ford. It's probably financially safer, easier, and less of a headache just to deal with Ford and SVT for the mainstream buyer, and keep their business smaller doing post-title mods for the Shelby-philes. Amy has mentioned before how SA is not a gigantic corporation, but a handful of dedicated enthusiasts like us. Gentlemen, we have a very rare and desireable, pre-title Shelby, made at Shelby as in the 60's, in a true image of the original GT-350. We may not have 500 horsepower (ok, not all of us) but this is the car to have. In my opinion.

 

 

What about the KR? That's a "pre title" Shelby.

 

Shelby may not do anymore pre-titles due to lack of man power. It has to be hard for the Vegas shop to handle 2200 cars in a short period of time. That's the only reason I can think of which would stop them from doing so.

[backafter20]

Granted, the KR is pre-title. It's was easy for me to forget that model, because not only is it out of my price range, but it's done in fairly low numbers. I really don't know how many were made or if the model continues. Are they making '10-'11 KRs? There can't be as many of them as there were SGTs, are there? I think another reason against pre-titles is that they open the doors to dealer ADMs, which no one appreciates. Interesting perspective on the lack of labor... I thought we had record unemployment? I would think it would be easy to find a large number of short-term mechanics with dealerships closing right and left. If I lived in Vegas and was unemployed, I'd love the chance to work for Shelby. How fun would that be, just to say you did it? I'd even stoop to doing test drives if they needed me.

 

 

BTW FIA, I've always thought the FIA was the most beautiful snake in the fleet. Much more elegant than the 427. You got one, or just a fan?

[FiaCobra]

............Granted, the KR is pre-title. It's was easy for me to forget that model, because not only is it out of my price range, but it's done in fairly low numbers. I really don't know how many were made or if the model continues. Are they making '10-'11 KRs? ....................................BTW FIA, I've always thought the FIA was the most beautiful snake in the fleet. Much more elegant than the 427. You got one, or just a fan?

 

 

The KR was only a 2 year run. 1011 models for the 2008 model year, and 712 models for the 2009 model year. Total production for both years combined are 1723 units. 200 of the 1723 were made for overseas sales.

 

As for the FIA, I agree with you. It remains the most beautiful snake in the fleet. I'm a fan and one day, would like to build a nice 289 FIA Cobra in Viking blue. I'll have to get a bigger garage, and finish assembling the 1965 Daytona coupe I got a few years ago.

[SWEDEMAN]

** Shelby American will never make another pretitle car, FORDMOCO makes no money on them and they only compete with Ford for profits. Ford authorized the SGT, in my opinion, so they could capitalize on the retro body of the Mustang and inspire sales. Shelby was in the right place at the right time. But now that Shelby knows, just like before, Ford will not cooperate with them in making pretitled cars because there is no $$ in them for FORD so they will continue to make post titled cars and I hate to say this but so is every body and their brother. There will not be another pretitled Shelby, most likely, as the number of cars made today by FORD will not tolerate the competition and price point. So Shelby will continue to make post titled cars and the prices will be higher because that is the only way they can thrive and survive. Besides the new Coyote engine will have 412 HP and if Shelby did make a SGT out of it it would only have another 20 HP more with a price tag of $20K more, just does not make sense.

BTW 2010 Mustang GT's are now being discounted $8K++ so that should tell you what the 2011 will go for, yes even with the new engine.

 

**No new SGT's.

[ilmor]

My car isn't a year old on the road yet, less than 3k miles and it's worth about 20k less than I paid right now. A new GT is about 35k so a SGT version would come in around 45k or so I would think. With all the different versions post title available right now the only thing the '07/'08s (and KRs) have going for them is their pre-title pedigree which still doesn't mean much. The fact that the new V6 has about as much power as the 4.6 doesn't help either. A little rarity is the only thing that will save them down the road I think.

 

 

 

Every year brings more horsepower and will continue to do so to a point, so I don't think that's an issue. For example the 2003-2004 Mach 1's were "only" 305 HP and they made 9652 of them but they are still desirable cars and considered future collector cars - at least that's what I read / been told. Another example: They made 9835 Mustang SVO's and they were "only" 175 to 200 HP depending on year and they are very collectible.

 

Only 7803 Shelby GT's were produced in '07 and '08 (last count I've seen), "only" 319 HP. Not to mention - these are (and I think many will agree) among the best looking Mustangs ever produced, which also adds value.

 

I agree - the rarity of our cars and the fact that they are the last (hopefully) of the pre-title Shelby Mustang (I think the KR was also) will make them desirable collector cars years down the road. I hope for selfish reasons that SAI makes no more.

[William Rodgers]

Agreed on all accounts Ilmor, especially that the Shelby GT is the Best looking Mustang, that is why I ended up with one.

[texaggie]

Some resopnses to some of the posts after mine (above).

 

1. I think the largest problem on the sales side of the SGTs had much less to do with Ford and much more to do with Ford Dealerships being greedy. I know that when I saw the SGT and the GT500 coming out I was in love with both. Being that I grew up a vette fan (and still am) it was the retro style of the '05s that had me looking. Eventually I wound up buying my GT500, but I had to fight and dig to find a price that was reasonable. Even up until the week before I bought my GT500 I was still looking at both the SGT and the GT500. Actually almost bought the SGT except the dealer in Dallas tried to kill me on my Roush 427 Trade and still was wanting over sticker. Turned him down and a few days later lucked into an out of state dealer that was fun to do business with.

 

2. In conjunction with the SGT dealership sales greed was a lot of competition. Saleen, Roush, and the GT500 were all on the table as options. The Roush and Saleens were available for Ford mustang promotions, but the SGT was not. The GT500 showed a sticker price and an online and magazine reviewed price that many dealerships were asking for the SGT. (While many people paid over sticker for their first GT500s, many of the average shoppers would not know ,and would not care that this was happening.) What people saw was a car that was moderately different from a regular Mustang GT for a GT500 price. Thus turning them to a Mustang GT with incentives for a good price.

 

3. While many can admire and respect color combinations that are set to relive a piece of history, what it really does is drastically reduce the amount of people even slightly interested in a product. If the Shelbys only came in orange (Not that it is a bad looking color, but any self respecting Ag would never be caught dead driving one) I would never own one. So having only two colors at first and then one color and some orange thing (Jokes, only jokes) really limited the SGT success.

 

4. As far as I know ford makes their money off the dealer purchases, and then it is up to the dealer to sell the cars in order to make a profit for its own dealership. (If I am wrong then feel free to correct me) So Ford makes their money from the dealerships if Shelby is involved or not.

 

5. I hope that Shelby is very selective about who they hire. So that just because there are 1000 people unemployed does not mean that they would all have a shot at working with SAI. All we have to think about is all the times any of us have run across an autoshop with poor workmanship and/ or service, and I think all would agree with this. So high unemployment rates do not solve the issue of production times. (Yes, I know you wrote it as mostly a joke, but some people might think "yeah, what's with that?", so I responded.)

 

6. I think that the pre-title Shelby is always going to be the gold standard for collectivity in the future. I also think it was the one place where Shelby could really hold off the cometition of other aftermarket places. Unfortunately for Shelby, I think without its place in the pre-title market Roush will win out in the arena they are in now. After all, even Shelby has a good relationship with Roush (just check out their engines), and Roush is now the face of racing when it comes to Ford (just like Shelby was in the past).

 

7. Either way I will always love my GT500. I will always be excited I own a piece of Shelby history (even if it is in name only as many people point out in comparison to the KR and SGT), and even at the expense of giving up a Roush 427. So I say I hope that both Shelby and Ford keep listening to their market, figure things out and keep sending us things to get worked up about (both positively and negatively), but let's not lose sleep over it.

 

On that note I'm off to bed.

[John Canfield]

Every year brings more horsepower and will continue to do so to a point, so I don't think that's an issue. For example the 2003-2004 Mach 1's were "only" 305 HP and they made 9652 of them but they are still desirable cars and considered future collector cars - at least that's what I read / been told.

 

 

 

Ford's Press release for the SN95 Mach 1 states that they would only build 6,500 2003 Mach 1s. Not only did the 2003 production go well past that (the 9,652 figure you've quoted), but then they went and built nearly 7,000 more in the 2004 model year. Mine is the 13th Mach 1 produced, and I enjoy it every day. I hope that it becomes a very desirable car for others in the future, but if it doesn't I'll be just as happy knowing that I'm driving a very satisfying and powerful (yeah, Ford said 305hp...right) car every day to work while others are driving their Camrys and Accords and Blahmobiles. Let 'em.

[FiaCobra]

Agreed on all accounts Ilmor, especially that the Shelby GT is the Best looking Mustang, that is why I ended up with one.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. The KR is the best looking late model mustang !!

[SGT0225]

Is SA missing out with no 'new' SGTs ?

 

 

So you think SAI should come out with a 5th anniversary SGT?

[SGT/SC#0471]

I respectfully disagree. The KR is the best looking late model mustang !!

 

 

 

[blueshawk]

[quote name='ilmor' date='14 February 2010 - 09:22 PM'

Only 7803 Shelby GT's were produced in '07 and '08 (last count I've seen), "only" 319 HP. Not to mention - these are (and I think many will agree) among the best looking Mustangs ever produced, which also adds value.

 

Definitely one of the best looking mustangs ever made. With the new Mustang body style out, these SGT's are by comparison, already classics, IMHO.

[John Canfield]

So you think SAI should come out with a 5th anniversary SGT?

 

 

No, just more power, better suspension, improved detail and a hood scoop that doesn't warp.

[bruces]

I agree with everyone else I dont think you will see another SGT they did not sell that weel I think due to Ford and Shelby not marketing them correctly taking advantage of the past history of Shelby, hell I found out about these cars with SMALL article in our local pap, called dealer they knew nothing about them? oh well I will keep mine I saw same problems with Shelby Dodges they sold well at first then dont know why they didnt move I love my 87 GLHS, and we had NO problems with those cars unlike our current SGTs ( wont go into problems we all KNOW them. I really think Ford and Shelby have missed the boat with the new GT 350 I was hopping for another 65 GT 350 ( which I have in my collection) I guess Ill be happy with my SGT which is more like the old Shelbys, just my 2cents Bruce

[ChipBeck]

1. I think the largest problem on the sales side of the SGTs had much less to do with Ford and much more to do with Ford Dealerships being greedy.

 

2. In conjunction with the SGT dealership sales greed was a lot of competition.

 

Gentlemen,

 

I suppose that buyer greed is OK but dealer greed is bad. Every Shelby owner tells us how they greedily sought the best deal for themselves and they believe that is virtuous. But in 2007 when many dealers received one GT500 all year and sought to make the best deal on that car for themselves, that was sheer wicked villainous behavior.

 

Clearly, the Socialists are winning and their favorite word when demonizing people they don't like, is "greed".

 

Every Shelby owner that talks about potential future price appreciation on their cars is displaying owner greed. The Ford Motor Company's decision to build the GT500 in the first place was the result of a business decision to make make money by capitalizing upon consumer demand. A socialist would call it greed, I call it free market capitalism that has made this the most prosperous country in the world and constantly delivers products that fulfill America's dreams and desires.

 

The wheels of commerce and prosperity are driven by the desires of purchasers and the willingness and ability of suppliers to fulfill that desire. Nothing is available in infinite supply and there are only two ways to allocate anything. With a price, or with a line. A socialist prefers a long line for us all to stand in, and never ending shortages. A capitalist prefers a price that keeps everything available at all times for immediate purchase, where shortage driven, temporarily higher prices, encourage additional production which eventually fulfills all demand and brings prices back down. When Adam Smith's "invisible hand" is allowed to work, everybody is better off.

 

If a Ford dealer sold his extremely limited allocation of GT500s in 2007 at MSRP, many owners would have immediately turned around and sold them on eBay for $10,000 over MSRP. They would then be on this site bragging about their huge profit. The free market is really great when it benefits an owner. He is a genius! But you think the dealer who is trying to keep his doors open during extremely challenging times, is a jerk. Whatever.

 

If I owned this website I would immediately delete every single post that contained the word "greed".

 

Chip

[tpow96]

Chip, just so I understand correctly, you are not bashing greed in itself, just the hyprocritical application

of it in threads on this website. Since greed is the central tenant of Smith's advocacy of free market

capitalism as you know already, I'm sure that is why it touched a nerve. While I'm not such a fervent believer,

I can appreciate the "greed in the eye of the beholder" argument.

 

But since you brought up greed, I think it is central to answer the topic of this thread. If SA's greed in trying to

be profitable under their current business model leads them to not pursue pre-title products, then the answer

is NO. Would we as greedy customers like a cheaper offering than SA's GT350 or Ford's GT500 for 2011+?

Of course. But our consumer greed has to be matched by a producer greed in order for something to really

happen. Just follow the money. My gut says a Boss Mustang from Ford, and a Supercharged Shelby post title

option for 2011+ Mustangs.

 

-Tom

[SGT0225]

No, just more power, better suspension, improved detail and a hood scoop that doesn't warp.

 

 

I am sorry, I did not understand this right. Yes, I agree with you every word of it.

 

In this era of muscle cars it is not good have a muscle car with low HP numbers and factory defects. Even though in 2007 319 HP was not low HP. A 5.0 zero to 60 was not/is not slow. Shelby did not make a mistake with what they made. (in my eyes) At that time they upgraded a mustang GT and sold it. If they make a new SGT it would have to have more HP and stuff because the new mustang GT has more HP.

 

I hope shelby American Inc. stays a manufacturer for many years to come.