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The Joy Of The Shelby Has Been Destroyed


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Guest markham51

I feel the frustration of those who feel they have been betrayed. It has little to do with fairness or free market economics, it has to do with emotion. When we buy a vehicle from a dealership we like to feel a connection...to the dealership, to its employess/owners and the Ford brand. If you are like me, you often drop into the dealership every once in a while to see what is new and check out the latest showroom vehicles. You chat with the sales guys and dream about your next purchase and talk about mods, the competition and all kinds of guy stuff. When new models arrive you rush over to check them out and see what Ford is doing lately. You follow all the newspapers, car mags and internet boards because you cant help yourself. You defend Ford, defend Mustangs and F150s and even Bill himself (sometimes).

 

Then when the hottest most exciting new Mustang ever to come out of Ford is on the market, and you have convinced the wife that somehow you can afford it (even though she cant or wont drive it because it is a manual) ...some salesman says "no thanks for your business", I'm selling to the highest bidder, you can't help but feel a disconnect. It says that your past and present loyalty is not important, only your check book is. No matter how you cut it, or how you rationalize it, that stinks. Simple as that!

 

In my case, when I talked to my US dealer, he told me right up front there would be a market premium. Because he told me up front, it didn't bother me. I hedged my bet and found another delear (two actually) who would sell at MSRP. However if he had led me to believe I was getting an MSRP deal and changed his mind at the last minute, I would be so pi$%ed off I would not only never buy another vehicle again from them, I would probably never buy another Ford!

 

My point...its not how the market works that matters most, its how you are treated that determines how you feel.

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I'm always a little slow on the uptake!

 

Obviously, most of you here are not.

 

So - maybe you can help me clairfy a basic tenet of business (and I'm an English prof - not an MBA!)

 

Apparently, the car manufactureres aren't making any additional profits from ADM's.

 

And - it doesn't appear to be a surprise when Ford or someone else builds a unit that is highly sought-after.

 

Then - (especially considering the market) why wouldn't Ford ramp up production and produce and sell as many GD Shelbys as they could? (or any other car - vis a vie the PT Cruiser)

 

I'm puzzled. If Ford can make a profit selling 9k Shelbys - why not build 13k and make more money? (as they did with the Mach 1, which I bought one of in Sept of '03 with a Rebate (including Dealer discounts) of $4k - when those who bought them in Jan of that year were paying $1-2k over MSRP?

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I'm always a little slow on the uptake!

 

Obviously, most of you here are not.

 

So - maybe you can help me clairfy a basic tenet of business (and I'm an English prof - not an MBA!)

 

Apparently, the car manufactureres aren't making any additional profits from ADM's.

 

And - it doesn't appear to be a surprise when Ford or someone else builds a unit that is highly sought-after.

 

Then - (especially considering the market) why wouldn't Ford ramp up production and produce and sell as many GD Shelbys as they could? (or any other car - vis a vie the PT Cruiser)

 

I'm puzzled. If Ford can make a profit selling 9k Shelbys - why not build 13k and make more money? (as they did with the Mach 1, which I bought one of in Sept of '03 with a Rebate (including Dealer discounts) of $4k - when those who bought them in Jan of that year were paying $1-2k over MSRP?

 

 

 

Thats the big question. Unfortunantly I havent heard any good answers. The only thing I can figure is that Ford is guessing (based on past SVT numbers) that there will probably be enough demand to sale 18,000 or so GT500's and they want to keep the demand high for the next 2 years and not make 13,000 the first year and then only 5,000 the second (because everyone that wanted one already bought one and everyone else is waiting for the next hi-po Mustang). This is the only reason I can think of. Unfortunantly I think the market is a little different now and waiting is only going to give competitors more time to enter the market.

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Good dealers (price, customer service, knowledge etc) would sell more (most likely at lower prices), and we'd all be happier. There could be limits in place (not let one dealer order 500 for "the lot" etc), but if they get the order, let them sell it.

But who am I kidding... that would be customer-centric, and we all know Ford doesn't do that very well! :hysterical:

 

Seems to me that was the principle behind the SVT process in the first place. Thing is the downmarket cars(Contour,Focus)didn't do the volume they hoped. So they have concentrated on the high end. And they have delivered on the basic tenets of SVT: Performance, Substance, Exclusivity and Value. Makes one wonder how much people would have been willing to pay for a, say, 350 hp Stang GT. In the end consumers drive the market. I just hope that a lot of the people who are willing to pay more than MSRP are going to do their part and drive the darn thing and polish the brand. It would just kill me if 50% or better were just rub and show toys. If and when my need and opportunity mesh I'm gonna drive the damm thing everyday because in the end thats what it's for.
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Here's an Idea :idea: Maybe this whole thing about being a limited production car could be taken care of by having Ford set-up a order bank window (let’s say btw. May & July) for example, so customers can go to any Ford dealer to get financing done & approved so they can order what ever options they wanted ahead of the scheduled production date?

 

This way if you don't get your order in within that time frame you have to wait until the next model year. Then Ford will only have to produce what cars were needed by the public & not over or under produced. This helps keep the volumes limited to public demand only. If that’s 8,453 cars then that's great, if it’s 16,932 cars then that’s what it is, No more, No less & NO ADM’s most of all.

 

just my two cents

 

 

 

It's not that simple. You can't just "ship" cars to were dealers have orders. When 2005 Mustang came out, allocation was based on 2003/2004 sales. A dealer that sold alot of 2003/2004 models got alot of 2005 models. Dealers in the Northeast sold very few Mustangs and as such did not get many 2005 Mustangs. You should not penalize large dealers by taking their allocation. Alot of legal issues out there. The company would/could get into alot of trouble for that. The allocation process is not perfect....but it is fair.

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Seems to me that was the principle behind the SVT process in the first place. Thing is the downmarket cars(Contour,Focus)didn't do the volume they hoped. So they have concentrated on the high end. And they have delivered on the basic tenets of SVT: Performance, Substance, Exclusivity and Value. Makes one wonder how much people would have been willing to pay for a, say, 350 hp Stang GT. In the end consumers drive the market. I just hope that a lot of the people who are willing to pay more than MSRP are going to do their part and drive the darn thing and polish the brand. It would just kill me if 50% or better were just rub and show toys. If and when my need and opportunity mesh I'm gonna drive the damm thing everyday because in the end thats what it's for.

 

 

 

 

Jetsolver - Did you have GT500 on order in Edmonton? Have you placed your order ?

The reason I ask is because I am from Edmonton as well, I could not get one thru Healy or Freedom Ford.I called Healy last May and they said that they already had 25 people on the list for the 5 cars or so that they figured they would get. I had to get mine from Richmond B.C. - #5 on their list for 2007. Garanteed at MSRP on my bill of sale for my deposit. Not sure how much value I can put in this after hearing about the added SVT Charges (I will find out soon enough, they told me that i would be ordering before the end of May).

 

I will be driving mine, of course Summer only.

 

As far as the thought of Ford building as many as humanly possible - I know that this is the American way but, besides ruining the Shelby name, you might as well buy a Mustang GT, put 30K into the motor and you'll basically have the same thing.

 

I think some people miss the point - This car is not about mass productiuon at all. I am sure that Carroll Shelby has an input on how many units will be produced. I think I recall that this was part of the reason for his falling out with Ford in the early 70's. Correct me if I wrong.

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I understand all of this and agree with most of it.

 

I'm just sorry that a lot of die hard Mustang fans won't be able to own one of these.

 

There might be a better way of determining who gets the chance to buy one at MSRP?

 

A lottery, perhaps?

 

I'm just not happy with a very few with deep pockets keeping real car guys from enjoying the ride.

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B)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Five Oh B @ Apr 30 2006, 11:54 AM) 9888[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

Our dealership switched over to the one-price philosophy in 1993, and it is one of the biggest reasons our customers love us and keep coming back. By posting our best price upfront, customer know that they aren't getting hosed and that anybody can walk in a get the same low price. We have dozens and dozens of vehicles priced below invoice, many hovering around invoice, and even all of our Mustang GT's are priced below MSRP. And yes, our GT500's are one-priced, as well. All 5 were pre-sold at $10K over MSRP and we now have a list of 17 guys total willing to buy at that price (out of 53 on our list). We've had guys offer more than the $10K over MSRP trying to secure at GT500 from us, but we don't work that way. The $10K ADM is the deal here and none of the 5 guys we took orders for even flinched at that price (several of them had actually offered it to us to make sure they get the car).

 

Now you're probably wondering about the 36 guys on our list who aren't OK with the $10K ADM. They have told me that they'll wait until pricing gets closer to MSRP. That's cool, 'cuz someday pricing will get there and we'll want to sell cars then, too. I'm tickled pink that we've already got customers ready to buy at MSRP when (and if) the market takes the price there. I've let these guys know that additional 2007's that we may earn later, and 2008's certainly open up the possibility of them getting a GT500 from us closer to the price they want. No burnt bridges here, and our customers seem to appreciate how upfront we've been about pricing.

 

 

Hey, Five Oh B, I like the ethics of that. I can't afford the $10K ADM but the fact you're straight with the customer up front is the key and maybe I'll be able to snag one at MSRP later. The world is full of things I can't afford and I can live with that, but what I can't live with is deceipt, convenient memory and reneged deals. Your dealer (and you!) are to be commended on how you do business. If all dealers did business this way there would be little to no residual hostility. And that, ultimately, is more important than the price because the realtionship with the customer lasts a lifetime, not a product cycle.

 

I'd bet the greedy dealer figure that us drooling Ford fans will get over it and next turn of the crank, we'll be back knocking at their door. We won't. We'll still love our toys but will seek out dealers like you. When I was younger I'd overlook such behavior if I could get what I wanted, but as I get older, the POINT is more important to me. I will never buy ANYTHING from a dealer who has been dishomes or greedy with me. PERIOD. NO EXCEPTIONS. NOT NEXT YEAR OR NEXT CAR OR EVER. That's the only effective way I have of punishing those that think only of themselves. Of course the only works if there are a lot of other principled buyers out there. But even if were the only one on the planet, I wold not do business with a greedy dealer.

 

Fortunately our local dealer is reasonable. They got burned when they accepted (cashed the check) a $100K deposit on the FordGT for an MSRP deal prior to Ford even announcing they'd actually produce it and then attempted to reneg when they were eventually offered $179K for the one they received. Now they routinely return any deposits prior to knowing that a vehicle is definately a go -- or so they say. And they still will not commit to an MSRP price on the GT500. I'm ok with that because I know that when they (hopefully eventually) feel the demand has come down (maybe winter?) they'll call me as soon as they feel MSRP is a fair price. Of course, I think it's fair right now! But that's ok.... at least I can trust them.. that makes the diff -- and I can still canvass other dealers.

 

But I like your approach better bacause my dealer's approach requires they stay well-tuned to what other dealers are charging and that's one tick-mark away from price-fixing/collusion. Your approach is up-front, honest and fair to all -- wealthy or not. Kudos, my friend!

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68fastback, thanks for seeing our GT500 process as upfront and fair. I would be lying, though, if I said everyone on our list is happy with us. I get hate mail periodically from customers on the list who think we are crooks solely because we accepted $10K offers and are applying that markup to any and all orders for our GT500's. I can usually pacify them by reminding them that some big shots are trying to outbid and bump our initial 5 customers, but we would rather keep our promises at $10K over than make some more money from some fat-cat that has way more money than brains.

 

I guess the hardest part for us isn't the money or ADM's, since the price is set and the same for all of our customers. The biggest issue has been how to select which customers would get GT500's here. We agonized over all the possible scenarios (auction, 1st come-1st served, lottery, charity, etc) and every method was going to alienate most customers, while pleasing so very few. We have so many good repeat customers who buy & service here, who send their referrals our way, who are wonderful to do business with, etc. on our list, so it is incredibly difficult to have to decide who is more deserving. Nobody is really more deserving, but through a committee-style selection process, we were able to narrow down some obvious customers to sell our GT500's to. I just wish Ford would build enough to fill every single order we had a customer for. The whole allocation model within Ford is frustrating, but it is the system we have to live with, so we make the best of it. If I were king for a day, I'd change the order system for specialty cars like the GT500, but alas, I am just a mere pauper.....

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Five oh B -

 

I first want to thank you for all the input you provide us with. Good Form.

 

But (!) - I'm not clear on why your store has to sell Shelbys for $10k over.

 

You could have sold your allotment the same way - but at MSRP - and rewarded those folks who've helped keep your store up and running.

 

My dealer, Pecheles Ford, here in Washington is fully aware of "market conditions" on this car. Matter of fact, the Asst. Sales Mgr, Irene, told me I could take my MSRP Shelby straight to an auction and probably make $20k.

 

I asked her why they've chosen to sell their few cars at sticker. She said, "It's how we do business."

 

(she also mentioned that they've been selling Toyota Prius' for sticker when others are adding on)

 

The irony here is - those who really want a Shelby are CAR PEOPLE. Most of whom have bought Ford products for years. The last people I'd want to alienate from my brand.

 

I know you probably don't set policy. I just wanted to vent a bit for those who haven't been as lucky as I am to buy in at sticker.

 

Bryan

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But (!) - I'm not clear on why your store has to sell Shelbys for $10k over.

Bryan

 

 

I didn't say we 'have to' sell for $10K over. That just happened to be a good average of what we were being offered. We had quite a few people with too much money that tried to buy their place in line. We had people offering MSRP, $5K over, $10K over, $15K over, $25K over, etc. The most common offer was $10K over, so we announced that offer amount to every single person on the list to see who was OK with that figure. We had more than a dozen people totally OK with that amount (a few willing to pay way more and a few upset at anything over MSRP). With so many people wanting to give us $10K over (and happy to do it to be sure of getting a GT500), and not even enough cars for all of those guys, why would we drop it down to MSRP? The market price is obviously $10K over as spoken by our own customers.

 

By the same token, I'm not clear why our store has to sell new Expeditions for $10K under MSRP. Oh wait, the market price is obviously $10K under as that's what it takes to get them sold. Don't believe me? Here's our current list of new 2006 Expeditions with MSRP and our sale price clearly posted on each.....

 

VEHICLE DESCRIPTION STK # COLOR MSRP SALE PRICE

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR XLT SPORT 4WD B8667 REDFIRE $41,170 $30,550 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR XLT SPORT 4WD B8666 SILVER BIRCH $41,425 $30,550 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR XLT SPORT 4WD B8711 REDFIRE $41,365 $30,550 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR XLT SPORT 4WD B8755 SILVER BIRCH $41,490 $30,650 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR XLT SPORT 4WD B8893 BLACK $41,490 $31,550 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR XLT SPORT 4WD B9110 SILVER BIRCH $41,365 $31,950 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B9293 REDFIRE $43,720 $34,482 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B8688 REDFIRE $46,460 $35,450 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B9123 BLACK $46,460 $35,950 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B8845 WHITE $46,460 $35,950 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B9152 WHITE $46,460 $36,250 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B8768 WHITE $46,960 $36,350 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B9075 WHITE $47,585 $36,950 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR KING RANCH 4WD B8340 DARK STONE $51,790 $37,950 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B8687 WHITE $49,560 $37,950 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B9285 BLACK $49,560 $39,448 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR EDDIE BAUER 4WD B9279 DARK STONE $50,175 $40,293 *

2006 FORD EXPEDITION 4DR LTD 4WD B9266 CASHMERE $50,910 $40,633 *

 

* Sale prices above reflect our discount and $6,000 rebate when you finance with Ford Credit.

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Five oh B -

 

I first want to thank you for all the input you provide us with. Good Form.

 

But (!) - I'm not clear on why your store has to sell Shelbys for $10k over.

 

You could have sold your allotment the same way - but at MSRP - and rewarded those folks who've helped keep your store up and running.

 

My dealer, Pecheles Ford, here in Washington is fully aware of "market conditions" on this car. Matter of fact, the Asst. Sales Mgr, Irene, told me I could take my MSRP Shelby straight to an auction and probably make $20k.

 

I asked her why they've chosen to sell their few cars at sticker. She said, "It's how we do business."

 

(she also mentioned that they've been selling Toyota Prius' for sticker when others are adding on)

 

The irony here is - those who really want a Shelby are CAR PEOPLE. Most of whom have bought Ford products for years. The last people I'd want to alienate from my brand.

 

I know you probably don't set policy. I just wanted to vent a bit for those who haven't been as lucky as I am to buy in at sticker.

 

Bryan

 

 

Just thinking out loud you both have very valid points and, of course, there's room for multiple approaches. I suspect the folks who Five Oh B mentions are displeased with the $10K ADM (as I would be) are just displeased, not ticked-off. Displeased will come back if treated fairly; ticked-off likely won't. I think that dealer's policy successfully optimizes for revenue while doing minimum damage to loyalty -- one approach.

 

The approach your dealer takes, RUFDRAFT, is to be admired (especially by folkd like me who can't afford the $10K ADM) but is based on a different set of priorities, I think. It optimizes loyalty at al cost. It's probably fair to say that that's a sub-optimum revenue approach. Of course, the dealers that are going for $20-40K over MSRP, whatever the market will bear, are revenue optimized, but at the expense of loyalty.

 

All things being equal (and they never are) Five Oh B's dealer is probalbe the best on business balance. Your dealer on loyalty and the 'crooks' on revenue.

 

I don't know if we can infer anything about the markets in which each of those three scenarios would be optimum, but maybe we can. I'd guess Five Oh B's dealer is optimized for a population center with low population turnover -- i.e. family buying patterns, repeat customers, established suburban neighborhoods are the basis of success. Your dealer's scenario (flat MSRP) could be considered optimum in a market with either too high a ratio of dealers to local population (i.e. to succeed your pricing must be a known 'destination' and can't afford advertising battles) OR a small dealer in a market near a much larger market (i.e. to succeed your pricing policy must 'condition' local customers to not think about shopping in the nearby population center -- deterministic and consistent pricing). And the 'crooks' would be dealers in population centers where loyalty is largely meaningless (at least to the dealer) or when you believe the market is captive (i.e. enthusiest market as with the GT500). I don't mean to imply it's a black and white situation... certainly all shades of grey can exist. As I said, just thinking our loud.

 

Anyhow... I can respect both Five Oh B's approach AND your dealer because BOTH are upfront and honest. Of course, if I had the choice and could get one at MSRP, I'd take it, but therein lies the rub ;-) RUFDRAFT, you are a very lucky Ford fan but, unfortunately, your situation is atypical of what most are experiencing.

 

I have to give Bill Ford kudos though for controlling, to some extent, what he can. The volume has been upped to 9,000. He's told the dealers he's pushing the 'no reseller' button and he's cautioned dealers to be mindfull of the situation with the GT500. Outside of magically getting smarter on how to plan vehicle volumes in advance of actual orders there's little more he can directly do.

 

I believe Bill Ford said a couple years ago (to Automotive Industries magazine, I believe) that he is committed to direct on-line order processing where the selling dealer is selected by the customer or the customer's location and the dealer just receives and preps the car for the online price. And I understand the ultimate goal for such a system is 2 weeks from keystroke to keyturn [not holding my breath here]. GM has stated similar goals. I have no idea if that's still being pursued but I know, at the time, the possibility of such a system did not play well with many dealers who, ironically, had broad-based good reputations (i.e. destination delaers) since bleed-off to local dealers nearers could hurt them.

 

Anyhow, I'm running on at the mouth (fingers) as I tend to do but just let me leave you with one last thought. If you have an MSRP order deal count your lucky stars .... cuz YOU ARE SOOOO LUCKY!!!! ;-)

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Good points. What the market will bear is okay with me.

 

I guess I get prickly thinking about how many people with too much money will be getting a Shelby when there are a lot of worker bees (of which I am one!) who can't afford more than the sticker. And - the worker bees will drive the cars - not stick them away.

 

With all due respect to car salesmen, I think the online idea sounds interesting.

 

One price. Pay it or leave it.

 

And - yes, I know I'm lucky. It comes at a very good time, too.

Sometimes having something to lift your spirits is every bit as good as meds.

 

Peace, y'all.

Bryan

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Good points. What the market will bear is okay with me.

 

I guess I get prickly thinking about how many people with too much money will be getting a Shelby when there are a lot of worker bees (of which I am one!) who can't afford more than the sticker. And - the worker bees will drive the cars - not stick them away.

 

With all due respect to car salesmen, I think the online idea sounds interesting.

 

One price. Pay it or leave it.

 

And - yes, I know I'm lucky. It comes at a very good time, too.

Sometimes having something to lift your spirits is every bit as good as meds.

 

Peace, y'all.

Bryan

 

 

Yeah, and this all comes, quite ironically, at a time when many Ford dealers are hurting -- one look at the fire-sale prices for some SUVs, as Five Oh B posted, says just how bad it is. These sure are unusual times...

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I didn't say we 'have to' sell for $10K over. That just happened to be a good average of what we were being offered. We had quite a few people with too much money that tried to buy their place in line. We had people offering MSRP, $5K over, $10K over, $15K over, $25K over, etc. The most common offer was $10K over, so we announced that offer amount to every single person on the list to see who was OK with that figure. We had more than a dozen people totally OK with that amount (a few willing to pay way more and a few upset at anything over MSRP). With so many people wanting to give us $10K over (and happy to do it to be sure of getting a GT500), and not even enough cars for all of those guys, why would we drop it down to MSRP? The market price is obviously $10K over as spoken by our own customers.

 

By the same token, I'm not clear why our store has to sell new Expeditions for $10K under MSRP. Oh wait, the market price is obviously $10K under as that's what it takes to get them sold. Don't believe me? Here's our current list of new 2006 Expeditions with MSRP and our sale price clearly posted on each.....

 

*****************************************************************************************

Hey, Five Oh B, from a newbie.

You seem unusually rational and reasonable for a car industry professional, so hopefully you'll see the point and counterpoint of this post. This is not personally directed at you or anyone else.

 

There is plenty of "blame" to share between domestic auto manufacturers, their dealers, and the American consumer in regards to virtually every issue on this forum. Like GM, Ford has grossly mismanaged virtually every aspect of their business structure for decades. The new "Way Forward" is yet another attempt to bail the slowly sinking ship.

 

I believe legitimate complaints are always valid, but they are only effective when they include solutions; so I'll bypass some of the details. I don't know how to correct the antiquated ordering and allocation systems, etc. at FoMoCo. I can't define a nationwide solution to uniform pricing in dealerships that will be thoroughly functional and profitable, yet service-oriented with fair and appropriate attitudes and practices. Consumers will always be diverse in their expectations and opinions, and one man's MSRP is another man's ADM. But...

 

Dealers, historically speaking, initiated the time-honored (dishonored?) art of price-negotiating to compete with other dealers for the consumer dollar. This is a NEW RETAIL product, and comparisons to E-Bay, etc. are ridiculous. Further, comparisons of selling mediocre mainstream SUVs at a $4K discount (the other $6K was Ford's money, after all), bear no relation to $10K+ mark-ups on limited-production vehicles. Here's a thought: sell the GT500s for $4K over MSRP and get the remaining $6K+ as an incentive from Ford!! Discounts and incentives have been used to sell price-point, not product. Mark-ups are to sell products, not value. Dealers have been unloading the stuff the manufacturers produce by ignoring the product and pitching low-ball dollars. But once they actually have a decent product to sell, out come the ADM sheets for the windows. The reality is that domestic manufacturers don't make many truly desirable vehicles. Adequate and average would describe all but a few of their products. And no, I'm not an Asian import lover, either. Toyota's quality masquerade (read J.D. Power, etc.) is matched only by the generic nature of their vehicles. Imports sell because our culture has embraced them as lifestyle icons, not because of they are superior.

 

I have decided to take things into my own hands and do what I CAN do for myself to get the cars I want at the price I am willing to pay. I refuse to pay over MSRP, because I know I don't have to if I'm willing to do my homework. Here is the fruit of my labor:

 

2007 Ford Shelby GT500 - at MSRP

2006 Ford GT - at MSRP

2007 Chevrolet Corvette ZO6 - at MSRP (2006 allocation was sold out at MSRP, so #1 2007 is mine.)

2006 Chrysler 300C SRT8 - below INVOICE including half of hold-back

2007 Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe - below MSRP (order pending model year)

2007 Porsche 911 Turbo - below MSRP (order pending model year)

2007 BMW M6 - at MSRP (order pending model year)

2007 Mercedes SL65 - at INVOICE (order pending model year)

OTHERS CURRENTLY IN NEGOTIATION

 

I hope everyone gets their GT500!!!! As for me, I'm already making preparations for my 2008 GT500 Coupe and Convertible color-matched pair. You can be assured I WILL get them, and I WON'T pay over MSRP!

 

********************************LIFE BEGINS AT 500HP!!!!********************************

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I have to give Bill Ford kudos though for controlling, to some extent, what he can. The volume has been upped to 9,000. He's told the dealers he's pushing the 'no reseller' button and he's cautioned dealers to be mindfull of the situation with the GT500. Outside of magically getting smarter on how to plan vehicle volumes in advance of actual orders there's little more he can directly do.

 

False, false, false. :rant: Sorry, but read a few of the other posts around here. There was one just posted yesterday... http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...?showtopic=1081

 

Ford's own employees are SUGGESTING to dealers that they should not stand for only MSRP! Now, a dealer can always ignore it, but it's the fact that the Mfgr's own reps are saying "don't screw up the market, you ought to raise your prices like everyone else" is totally wrong to me.

 

I hope that these stories turn out to be false. I really do. Because if they don't, the whole "Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price" (as Five Oh and the other dealer employee's who are on this forum keep pointing out), truely aren't SUGGESTED anymore - if the Mfgr is telling the dealer to raise their prices to match what other dealers are doing - that's price fixing at the Mfgr level! It really doesn't matter if it is in writing or a threat - it can be construed as "I better do this because they told me to..." :devil2:

 

Sorry, but these new stories are reviving the pricing bitterness in me. I don't care how high a dealer prices his cars - that's not my business. I only care about renegged deals and various levels of market level (and now Mfgr level) price fixing allegations.

 

I'm off the box now... again, sorry for the rant. :soapbox:

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Nobody from Ford told us or suggested to us how much we should charge for our GT500's. Sounds like there may have been some isolated incidents where during some small talk a Ford rep may have told a dealer something like "man, you're cheap selling your GT500's at MSRP when you could get more." But, I can't believe for a minute that a Ford rep would walk into a dealer and tell them to mark 'em up like everyone else so you don't hurt the other dealers' ability to charge ADM's.

 

I guess it's worth telling those of you who think we should sell ours for MSRP even though the market price is higher something: We are a one-price store, so we have to have a competitive price upfront to stay in business. On new Expeditions (as noted above) that competitive price is $10K below MSRP. On new Mustang GT's, that competitive price is about $500 below MSRP. And on our GT500's, that competitive price is $10K over MSRP. These prices reflect competitive amounts that make more than enough customers happy (while disappointing as few as possible) so that we remain a popular dealer. How popular? In the Pacific NW there are over 150 Ford dealers. Year-to-date, we are the 12th largest volume dealer. Last month, we were #8. Selling Certified Pre-Owned Fords we are #1 in the NW, #18 nationwide! And you've likely heard of the Ford President's Award - the highest award for customer service that Ford can bestow on a dealer. There are only a couple hundred dealers nationwide that win these. Very few dealers can win them consistently - we've won 11 of them including the last 6 years in a row. We are the only volume NW Ford dealer to have won 10 or more, and are one of just 20 or so Ford dealers nationwide to win that many.

 

We obviously please our customers and we obviously have very competitive prices. And don't confuse "competitive" to mean "at, or below, MSRP." On a car like the GT500, competitive can be over MSRP as long as all the other dealers near us continue to be even higher over MSRP than us. So, as long as our customers are happy paying "just" $10K over MSRP, and we're happy getting "just" $10K over MSRP, is there really a problem? As long as both parties to a sale feel like they are getting a fair deal, then it's all good.

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Ah, it's hard to see the forest when staring squarely at a tree... and I'm the first to admit my crysal ball is a bit cloudy these days but I suspect that the whole price elasticity curve of the GT500 is not at all exceptional compared to other highly-desireable cars. The Enzo was completely unavailable to anyone who wasn't already an elite-listed buyer of the previous top model. Now I'm not saying the GT500 is an Enzo, but the MSRP+ markups are in the same ballpark, percent-wise. The FordGT was a similar scenario. The diff with the GT500, to my mind, is that this car is [was] affordable, so it's a whole diff bunch of folks wanting it. It's the core pony car enthusiast wanting what s/he's been deprived of since the early 70s when the insanity of incompetant Federal planning started sucking our beloved cars dry of any usefull performance. And it's the younger generation who's always wantedsuch a car for the same reasons us old-timers owned them back in the day. Hell, we may even pop loose a few ricers out there who haven't a clue what real cars are all about (ok, ok, we love ricers too).

 

Here we are in 2006 with technology permitting auto engines so clean that many (ULEV-II and PZEV) actually exhaust cleaner air than they sucked in (in all US cities over 100K pop.); engines that are 100-1000x cleaner than pre-1967; engines that produce amazing torque and HP seamlessly across a broad powerband; and somehow I think a lot of folks are feeling that the GT500 is finally a ride worthy of their hard earned money and actually, maybe, even affordable (if they cash in part of their retirement or decide the grandkids didn't need that fancy school afterall -- ok, get out the violins for me now). It's automotive nirvanna all over again -- if you can get one at a price you CAN afford.

 

I just hope Ford hasn't targeted the production volumes where they now are well-knowing the GT500 would generate big initial MSRP+ prices, as a way to intentionally help beleagered dealers to recoup some losses, 'cause it would be unfair to us loyal Ford enthusiasts to have to pay for the shortfalls of the great SUV-unwanted ;-) Id rather believe they hadn't a clue how much pent-up demand is out there by enthusiasts abandoned 40 years ago who have been waiting for a car like this, but I'm not so certain.

 

If the next 500+HP Mustang-du-jour in '08 doesn't have plan volumes more alligned to core demand I'll begin to suspect I've been duped; until then I am still optimistic the supply-demand curve will flatten by winter and next year we can all sing 'cum-bay-ah' around the smoldering campfire of the remains of those competiors who challenged us.

 

Ok, I'll shut up now... but 40 years is a long wait -- if I have to wait much longer I could accidently hurt myself power shifting my BorgWarner T-10 wide-ratio top-loader 4-spd, or succumb to the seductive aroma of '60s 4-barrel pre-choke-pull-off hydrocarbons, or hurt my vision staring at the tach to keep shift points in the peaky sweet spot of the power band, ...and no one wants me to have to keep doing that, right? ;-)

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Ha. Well put, 68.

 

I'm one of those baby boomers who couldn't swing a big block back in the day.

 

And I've been loyal despite being hp depraved. (see my sig)

 

So - now - finally - Bill says "Let's give 'em something to talk about." But - too many trust fund babies, et al, are going to get in the way of middle America and keep them from their dreams.

 

I'm getting mine (Amen) - but I still feel for those who won't. They are the real Ford fans. The ones who used to WORK on their cars.

 

:shift:

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I still feel for those who won't. They are the real Ford fans. The ones who used to WORK on their cars.

 

:shift:

 

 

I'm a Mustang fanatic above all else. I've owned five of them. I've owned big block musclecars, I've rebuilt and tuned my own engines in my garage, I've drag-raced them all, I've shown the prettier ones at car shows. I just happen to work at a Ford dealership now, but I'm still a Mustang enthusiast first and foremost. With any ADM or even at MSRP, I am priced out of the market for a GT500. My wife keeps telling me to stop talking about this damn car. If pricing settles down enough and some sort of employee discounts and/or pricing ever surface, then I'll have a shot at buying a GT500. Until then, I have to live vicariously through those of you who are lucky enough (or rich enough) to get a GT500. I suspect it may be late 2008, if ever, before I can seriously entertain the thought of getting one. :(

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Ohhh...c'mon now, Five oh!

 

Are you selling again?! :bandance:

 

When I bought my '03 Mach from Bill Talley Ford in Richmond in Sept of '03, I asked my salesguy (Brad) what he earned the past year.

 

When he told me, I almost dropped! He made TWICE what I make teaching at the college level!

 

Are you serious about not being able to buy a Shelby at MSRP from where you work? I'd change my situation.

 

C'mon. Fess up!

 

Sell your Mach and get a Shelby. You won't see the Shaker shake, but you'll feel the power. :happy feet:

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Ohhh...c'mon now, Five oh!

 

Are you selling again?! :bandance:

 

When I bought my '03 Mach from Bill Talley Ford in Richmond in Sept of '03, I asked my salesguy (Brad) what he earned the past year.

 

When he told me, I almost dropped! He made TWICE what I make teaching at the college level!

 

Are you serious about not being able to buy a Shelby at MSRP from where you work? I'd change my situation.

 

C'mon. Fess up!

 

Sell your Mach and get a Shelby. You won't see the Shaker shake, but you'll feel the power. :happy feet:

 

 

Nope - I don't sell cars here. I wear several hats, but my official title is Internet Manager. But, I am also the Webmaster for our websites, and the SVT Team Leader (or SVT Director depending on who you ask - just semantics, I suppose).

 

Our salesmen (and ladies) - on average - make more money than I do. The top 3 guys make about double what I make, and the bottom 3 guys make less than I do. I make a decent living, but with a big mortgage payment and two teenage daughters in the house, a GT500 may not be wise unless priced right.

 

Lastly, I'm sure that I could get the owner here to sell me a GT500 for MSRP if there was an extra one available. But, customers come before employees on hot items like this, so I have to wait. Same was true on the Mach 1. We were sold out of new 2003 Mach 1's a year in advance, so I had to wait until year end when the 2004's were first arriving, and even then had to dealer trade a Mach 1 in from out of state to get one as we were sold out.

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Man - talk about irony!

 

This really sucks for you.

 

At least you still have the Mach until these cars get more plentiful. If I still had mine, I'd do the wating thing too. I bought my Mach at about $4k under MSRP in the same year where some folks paid over sticker to be first. It felt good!

 

I'd like to have your gig - but could never sell them on the floor - regardless of the money. Too much time doing nothing.

 

I love teaching and while I'd like more bread, I never - ever - come home bitching to wifey.

 

Hang in there, man. Your Shelby will be there. At least you're gonna see a bunch of 'em!

 

Bryan :shift:

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Hey Five Oh B... so that's why you seem so damn sane! You have a real life!!! I knew I liked you for some good reason ;-) When I get too impatient waiting, I call my old friend up and tell my wife I need a Cobra fix and he comes up for a day or two with my old Cobra to visit so I can feel that linear Cobra power slam my butt back in the seat through a few gears... good friends are good to have ;-)

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Hey Five Oh B... so that's why you seem so damn sane! You have a real life!!! I knew I liked you for some good reason ;-) When I get too impatient waiting, I call my old friend up and tell my wife I need a Cobra fix and he comes up for a day or two with my old Cobra to visit so I can feel that linear Cobra power slam my butt back in the seat through a few gears... good friends are good to have ;-)

 

 

I am sane, but when I start feeling a bit insane or stressed it is very therapeutic to get the Mach 1 on the road and rip through the gears (and tires). It is definitely a plus to have good friends - even better when they, too, have musclecars! Recently, I took a road trip in the Mach 1 with several friends. They drove their: 2004 Pontiac GTO, 2001 Subaru WRX, and 2000 Chevy Corvette. Talk about therapy for all of us!

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B)-->

QUOTE(Five Oh B @ May 14 2006, 07:36 PM) 12405[/snapback]

Nope - I don't sell cars here. I wear several hats, but my official title is Internet Manager. But, I am also the Webmaster for our websites, and the SVT Team Leader (or SVT Director depending on who you ask - just semantics, I suppose).

 

Our salesmen (and ladies) - on average - make more money than I do. The top 3 guys make about double what I make, and the bottom 3 guys make less than I do. I make a decent living, but with a big mortgage payment and two teenage daughters in the house, a GT500 may not be wise unless priced right.

 

Lastly, I'm sure that I could get the owner here to sell me a GT500 for MSRP if there was an extra one available. But, customers come before employees on hot items like this, so I have to wait. Same was true on the Mach 1. We were sold out of new 2003 Mach 1's a year in advance, so I had to wait until year end when the 2004's were first arriving, and even then had to dealer trade a Mach 1 in from out of state to get one as we were sold out.

 

 

That explains it, Internet manager, I was wondering how you got any work done when you were on the computer all the time, your supposed to be on it. Were glad too, lots of good info. hang in there Brian we are both in the same boat, you know where I stand. MSRP or Zippo.

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B)-->

QUOTE(Five Oh B @ May 15 2006, 03:12 PM) 12495[/snapback]

I am sane, but when I start feeling a bit insane or stressed it is very therapeutic to get the Mach 1 on the road and rip through the gears (and tires). It is definitely a plus to have good friends - even better when they, too, have musclecars! Recently, I took a road trip in the Mach 1 with several friends. They drove their: 2004 Pontiac GTO, 2001 Subaru WRX, and 2000 Chevy Corvette. Talk about therapy for all of us!

 

 

 

Ah yes... nice group for a ROAD TRIP! Now if we could return, just for a week, to when there was no radar and the police drove those old Plymouth straight-6s with the big dial-speedo on top of the dash -- they were a kick ;-)

 

When the movie Bullit came out I double dated with a friend who also had a 68fastback 390GT. Needless to say the trip home on the backroads was kinda like the movie (thankfully we all survived).

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While not a V8 musclecar - my 350Z gets on down the road!

 

What's been on my mind recently when I go up through 3 or 4 gears, is how another 200 hp is going to feel like! I mean, I've got 3.90 gears in mine - and a few NA mods - so it probably does 0-60 in about 4.5. But - I just can't wait for the first ride.

 

I've got the first tune picked out, too. Ronnie & the Daytona's "Hey, Little Cobra!" :shift:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wake up Ford Motor Company!

 

Many of your most avid and devoted Mustang lovers have been slapped in the face by your greedy dealers with their price gouging tactics. The resentment runs deep and your foolish and short-sighted dealers are going to kill the company.

 

I don't blame Ford. Their dealers are running amok. True story. I talked to a dealer and was told what they wanted for the MSRP bump. When I got to the dealer 30 minutes later, they raised it 10K! Said the original figure was an error. Yeah,right. These guys are not very smart. My company will need about 4 cars and pickups this year and they may be Ford but not at that dealer. Yes, I have one on order, but I'm not thru with them yet on the extra bump.

 

Wake up Ford Motor Company!

 

Many of your most avid and devoted Mustang lovers have been slapped in the face by your greedy dealers with their price gouging tactics. The resentment runs deep and your foolish and short-sighted dealers are going to kill the company.

 

I don't blame Ford. Their dealers are running amok. True story. I talked to a dealer and was told what they wanted for the MSRP bump. When I got to the dealer 30 minutes later, they raised it 10K! Said the original figure was an error. Yeah,right. These guys are not very smart. My company will need about 4 cars and pickups this year and they may be Ford but not at that dealer. Yes, I have one on order, but I'm not thru with them yet on the extra bump.

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I don't blame Ford. Their dealers are running amok. True story. I talked to a dealer and was told what they wanted for the MSRP bump. When I got to the dealer 30 minutes later, they raised it 10K! Said the original figure was an error. Yeah,right. These guys are not very smart. My company will need about 4 cars and pickups this year and they may be Ford but not at that dealer. Yes, I have one on order, but I'm not thru with them yet on the extra bump.

I don't blame Ford. Their dealers are running amok. True story. I talked to a dealer and was told what they wanted for the MSRP bump. When I got to the dealer 30 minutes later, they raised it 10K! Said the original figure was an error. Yeah,right. These guys are not very smart. My company will need about 4 cars and pickups this year and they may be Ford but not at that dealer. Yes, I have one on order, but I'm not thru with them yet on the extra bump.

 

 

Well guys and girls, it finally happened. I got a dealer in a small town in California to punch my order into the computer. I expect confirmation next week sometime. It's going to cost me 5g's over MSRP with no squabbling. It sounds fair to me with all the other quotes I've had from 10 to 40 grand over list. I got tungsten with silver stripes, the upgrade interior with red leather inserts, shaker 500, SIRIUS(I hope) and anti-theft system. I hope to see it somewhere around the end of July! :roses::roses: :happy feet:

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