traction issues

breoland · December 17, 2009

Im kinda curious about the traction issues everyopne has with the super snakes and regular gt500. what i was wondering is everyone that is complaing that the 20in wheels are not wide enough, has anyone changed the upper and lower control arms yet? from what i understand the stock bushings are terrible from the factory and need to be replaced and also the pinion angle of the rear is slightly off.

So by replacing the upper and lower control arms and getting the ones that adjust, would probably help plant the tires to the ground.

I plan on picking up a set with race ends for my gt500 to help correct these issues, i understand they are going to be a lil noisy but will help out planting the the best. let me know what you guys have done or if you have not done anything yet

Lee N. · December 17, 2009

Im kinda curious about the traction issues everyopne has with the super snakes and regular gt500. what i was wondering is everyone that is complaing that the 20in wheels are not wide enough, has anyone changed the upper and lower control arms yet? from what i understand the stock bushings are terrible from the factory and need to be replaced and also the pinion angle of the rear is slightly off.

So by replacing the upper and lower control arms and getting the ones that adjust, would probably help plant the tires to the ground.

I plan on picking up a set with race ends for my gt500 to help correct these issues, i understand they are going to be a lil noisy but will help out planting the the best. let me know what you guys have done or if you have not done anything yet

I ran the Griggs Torque arm and lower control arms with my stock tires and it did not help much in traction. It eliminated the wheelhop and I could get into the gas much quicker coming out of a corner, but the straight line traction was not much different. Tires, tires, tires is were its at!

The problem with the SS 20" wheel is the offset. They stick out much farher than the most other GT500 wheels so if you mount a wider tire the sidewall will stick out from the fender. They are the best choice if you plan to widen them because you can go all the way to 12", but as they sit you can not get enough meat under the car for it to come close to hooking up in a SS (without them buldging out of the fender). For a drag radial you need atleast a 305 for any hopes of putting power down. For a street performance tire you will need a 315 or larger. There is room to get a 335 under there with a SS wheel.

breoland · December 17, 2009

I ran the Griggs Torque arm and lower control arms with my stock tires and it did not help much in traction. It eliminated the wheelhop and I could get into the gas much quicker coming out of a corner, but the straight line traction was not much different. Tires, tires, tires is were its at!

The problem with the SS 20" wheel is the offset. They stick out much farher than the most other GT500 wheels so if you mount a wider tire the sidewall will stick out from the fender. They are the best choice if you plan to widen them because you can go all the way to 12", but as they sit you can not get enough meat under the car for it to come close to hooking up in a SS (without them buldging out of the fender). For a drag radial you need atleast a 305 for any hopes of putting power down. For a street performance tire you will need a 315 or larger. There is room to get a 335 under there with a SS wheel.

I dont really think you resolved anything by by putting the torque arm in and just lowers. The pinion agle your rear is at is off from the factory and with lowering springs it doesnt correct it either

What i have seen being done to other gt500s to plant the tires is getting double adj upper and lower control arms. I forgot to add the relocation bracket for the lower. I think if alot of people with supersnakes changed what is there now with the upper and lowers and changing the angle of the rear it may help out. i do understand that there is not enough tire to begin with but it could help out some

Lee N. · December 17, 2009

I dont really think you resolved anything by by putting the torque arm in and just lowers. The pinion agle your rear is at is off from the factory and with lowering springs it doesnt correct it either

What i have seen being done to other gt500s to plant the tires is getting double adj upper and lower control arms. I forgot to add the relocation bracket for the lower. I think if alot of people with supersnakes changed what is there now with the upper and lowers and changing the angle of the rear it may help out. i do understand that there is not enough tire to begin with but it could help out some

I changed the angle of the lowers. The lowers are adjustable and use the lower relocation bracket from Griggs. Also reset the pinion angle. I dumped the Griggs lower arms in favor of the SPHON Del-Sphere arms. They eliminated the slight vibration I was seeing from the double heim Griggs arms as well as the clunking noise. I like the kit and would recommend it, but it did not make my car hook up much better off the line.

GR40Freak · December 18, 2009

I ran the Griggs Torque arm and lower control arms with my stock tires and it did not help much in traction. It eliminated the wheelhop and I could get into the gas much quicker coming out of a corner, but the straight line traction was not much different. Tires, tires, tires is were its at!

The problem with the SS 20" wheel is the offset. They stick out much farher than the most other GT500 wheels so if you mount a wider tire the sidewall will stick out from the fender. They are the best choice if you plan to widen them because you can go all the way to 12", but as they sit you can not get enough meat under the car for it to come close to hooking up in a SS (without them buldging out of the fender). For a drag radial you need atleast a 305 for any hopes of putting power down. For a street performance tire you will need a 315 or larger. There is room to get a 335 under there with a SS wheel.

Lee,

You hit the nail in the head. Even changing over to the Griggs setup a 4000lb. car with over 700HP is not going to hook up on 20" wheels. Lack of sidewall makes the carcas very stiff and it ends up just overcoming available traction. You said you noticed a difference in grip which a testament to the function of the system. A set of 18" wheels will make a huge, I mean HUGE difference.

Still blows me away the Shelby makes a car with 725HP and then puts 20" wheels on it. The 20's are done just for looks and actually make the car slower off the line than a standard GT500 with 18s. Funny huh!

The 20's also compromise lateral grip, 18" wheels make your car, handle better, quieter, accelerate faster and brake with less distance as the tire carcas is more elastic and will grab the ground better.

Colin

Lee N. · December 18, 2009

Lee,

You hit the nail in the head. Even changing over to the Griggs setup a 4000lb. car with over 700HP is not going to hook up on 20" wheels. Lack of sidewall makes the carcas very stiff and it ends up just overcoming available traction. You said you noticed a difference in grip which a testament to the function of the system. A set of 18" wheels will make a huge, I mean HUGE difference.

Still blows me away the Shelby makes a car with 725HP and then puts 20" wheels on it. The 20's are done just for looks and actually make the car slower off the line than a standard GT500 with 18s. Funny huh!

The 20's also compromise lateral grip, 18" wheels make your car, handle better, quieter, accelerate faster and brake with less distance as the tire carcas is more elastic and will grab the ground better.

Colin

I agree with your assessment about the 18's hooking better than the same width 20's, but you can make a 20" hook pretty well. The ZR1 rolls on 20's as does the Hennesy Camaro that whipped the SS. My 20's hook good now, but I had to go to a 335 to make it happen. Just takes more rubber to get the same grip! One trick is to put a taller tire on the 20" rim which will get some of your sidewall back. I went up 1" in height (gave me .5" more sidewall) and the 2.5" more width makes up the rest. Hooks up really good now on 20's and I still get the "bling". But when I take the car anywhere with a time clock I still slap my 18's back on! With a 28" tall 18" 325 drag radial you can REALLY get the car to go! I wish I could find a set of 18" KR wheels and stretch them to 12" wide!! Then you would get the best of both!!!

GT500bro · December 19, 2009

Lee,

You hit the nail in the head. Even changing over to the Griggs setup a 4000lb. car with over 700HP is not going to hook up on 20" wheels. Lack of sidewall makes the carcas very stiff and it ends up just overcoming available traction. You said you noticed a difference in grip which a testament to the function of the system. A set of 18" wheels will make a huge, I mean HUGE difference.

Still blows me away the Shelby makes a car with 725HP and then puts 20" wheels on it. The 20's are done just for looks and actually make the car slower off the line than a standard GT500 with 18s. Funny huh!

The 20's also compromise lateral grip, 18" wheels make your car, handle better, quieter, accelerate faster and brake with less distance as the tire carcas is more elastic and will grab the ground better.

Colin

I am curious what size/brand front and rear tires Colin and the guys at Griggs recommend for a 2010 GT500 with stock 19". I am thinking of upgrading my suspension with the GR40 SS set up and going with the 315 upgrade and having Weldcraft widen my rear OEM rims. But it sounds like tires size, brand and type are the critical variable and if you make a bad choice, no matter how good the suspension set up is, your car will not hook up and handle to its full potential. What tire and size do you guys recommend for the best overall balance in handling and traction?

GR40Freak · December 19, 2009

I agree with your assessment about the 18's hooking better than the same width 20's, but you can make a 20" hook pretty well. The ZR1 rolls on 20's as does the Hennesy Camaro that whipped the SS. My 20's hook good now, but I had to go to a 335 to make it happen. Just takes more rubber to get the same grip! One trick is to put a taller tire on the 20" rim which will get some of your sidewall back. I went up 1" in height (gave me .5" more sidewall) and the 2.5" more width makes up the rest. Hooks up really good now on 20's and I still get the "bling". But when I take the car anywhere with a time clock I still slap my 18's back on! With a 28" tall 18" 325 drag radial you can REALLY get the car to go! I wish I could find a set of 18" KR wheels and stretch them to 12" wide!! Then you would get the best of both!!!

Just keep in mind that the ZR-1 weighs about 3300lbs., a HP/weight ratio of 5.17HP/lb., a 58/42 F/R weight bias and has 335s out back....

The SS weighs about 3900lbs., a HP/weight ratio of 5.38HP/lb., a 58/42 F/R weight bias and has 275s out back...

The results of the ZR1 vs. SS drag race were not a surprise.

The GT500 would need 755HP and 335s(requires 12" wheels) to be even with the ZR1 and even then it would just barely lose the drag race because of the aero.

Colin

GR40Freak · December 19, 2009

I am curious what size/brand front and rear tires Colin and the guys at Griggs recommend for a 2010 GT500 with stock 19". I am thinking of upgrading my suspension with the GR40 SS set up and going with the 315 upgrade and having Weldcraft widen my rear OEM rims. But it sounds like tires size, brand and type are the critical variable and if you make a bad choice, no matter how good the suspension set up is, your car will not hook up and handle to its full potential. What tire and size do you guys recommend for the best overall balance in handling and traction?

Toyo RA-1. Sticky and quiet. The size will depend on your rim width. Smaller wheel dia. hook up better i.e. 19s are better than 20s, 18s are better than 19s, etc. You should be fine with the stock wheels. A good set of lightweight wheels will make a huge difference. I'm guessing that your stock wheels weigh around 35lbs. each. Good track wheels will be 17-20lbs. each.

Colin

GT500bro · December 19, 2009

Toyo RA-1. Sticky and quiet. The size will depend on your rim width. Smaller wheel dia. hook up better i.e. 19s are better than 20s, 18s are better than 19s, etc. You should be fine with the stock wheels. A good set of lightweight wheels will make a huge difference. I'm guessing that your stock wheels weigh around 35lbs. each. Good track wheels will be 17-20lbs. each.

Colin

Thanks Colin. Just checked and the Toyo RA1 tires don't come in a 19", biggest size is 18". Do you like the Michelin Pilot Sports P2S or any other mfr? Also, for the best traction in the rear, should I be looking for 35 or 40 sidewall as opposed to 25 or 30 or does that make little difference? Thanks..

GR40Freak · December 19, 2009

Thanks Colin. Just checked and the Toyo RA1 tires don't come in a 19", biggest size is 18". Do you like the Michelin Pilot Sports P2S or any other mfr? Also, for the best traction in the rear, should I be looking for 35 or 40 sidewall as opposed to 25 or 30 or does that make little difference? Thanks..

The R888 is available in 19". It does produce some tread noise though. You can vary the width of your tires but you want to keep the height the same (or close) as stock. All tire mfg. will post the measures of the tires in all available width just do some searching.

I love the PS2s but it is not a true track tire. They are a great high performance summer tire. Not great in standing water or cold temps. I used them on my daily for 100,000 miles.

Its always better to have a tire for a specific purpose. If you are going to start doing track days or head to the strip. Get a set of tires for that purpose when you go and keep a good set of street tires for the rest of the time.. like PS2s.

Colin

GT500bro · December 19, 2009

The R888 is available in 19". It does produce some tread noise though. You can vary the width of your tires but you want to keep the height the same (or close) as stock. All tire mfg. will post the measures of the tires in all available width just do some searching.

I love the PS2s but it is not a true track tire. They are a great high performance summer tire. Not great in standing water or cold temps. I used them on my daily for 100,000 miles.

Its always better to have a tire for a specific purpose. If you are going to start doing track days or head to the strip. Get a set of tires for that purpose when you go and keep a good set of street tires for the rest of the time.. like PS2s.

Colin

Thanks again Colin for the great advice. I"ll look into the PS2s for street with the 19" OEM rims and then think of the R888 for track where I could go to an 18" rim....

GR40Freak · December 19, 2009

Thanks again Colin for the great advice. I"ll look into the PS2s for street with the 19" OEM rims and then think of the R888 for track where I could go to an 18" rim....

Anytime. If you do get 18" track wheels get the RA-1 over the R888, its quieter.

Colin

Lee N. · December 21, 2009

Just keep in mind that the ZR-1 weighs about 3300lbs., a HP/weight ratio of 5.17HP/lb., a 58/42 F/R weight bias and has 335s out back....

The SS weighs about 3900lbs., a HP/weight ratio of 5.38HP/lb., a 58/42 F/R weight bias and has 275s out back...

The results of the ZR1 vs. SS drag race were not a surprise.

The GT500 would need 755HP and 335s(requires 12" wheels) to be even with the ZR1 and even then it would just barely lose the drag race because of the aero.

Colin

It would be a good race, but keep in mind the ZR1 rides on 335/25 run flats. The 335/30's that will fit under the SS give you 3/4" more sidewall. Thats lots of sidewall! I can not help but think the SS would hook up better than the ZR1 in that race. Mine are hooking up with 200 more hp than the ZR1 so a stock SS should really hook well! It would be a close race, but I would put my money on the SS with 335's.

miamimtg · January 9, 2010

I agree with your assessment about the 18's hooking better than the same width 20's, but you can make a 20" hook pretty well. The ZR1 rolls on 20's as does the Hennesy Camaro that whipped the SS. My 20's hook good now, but I had to go to a 335 to make it happen. Just takes more rubber to get the same grip! One trick is to put a taller tire on the 20" rim which will get some of your sidewall back. I went up 1" in height (gave me .5" more sidewall) and the 2.5" more width makes up the rest. Hooks up really good now on 20's and I still get the "bling". But when I take the car anywhere with a time clock I still slap my 18's back on! With a 28" tall 18" 325 drag radial you can REALLY get the car to go! I wish I could find a set of 18" KR wheels and stretch them to 12" wide!! Then you would get the best of both!!!

Right on brother, Ditto.

...reading and following.

BoneDoc · January 9, 2010

anyone tried the NItto NT05's?..........

miamimtg · January 10, 2010

anyone tried the NItto NT05's?..........

i have them in the stock size on my rears right now. they are Much stickier than the pirellis.

i like them a lot and think they are great. night and day better. Yet, still need to be wider on

these cars to get 'there'.

...(i thought the pirellis just plain suk'd on these cars.

funny, on my twin turbo 911 they were great.)

BoneDoc · January 10, 2010

i have them in the stock size on my rears right now. they are Much stickier than the pirellis.

i like them a lot and think they are great. night and day better. Yet, still need to be wider on

these cars to get 'there'.

...(i thought the pirellis just plain suk'd on these cars.

funny, on my twin turbo 911 they were great.)

Thanks. Your car looks great BTW.

Like you I have been following Lee's mods to get more rubber to road.

I'm sending my rear rims for widening this week. I have spent alot of time thinking and looking at tire/wheel combos.

I have gone back and forth but right now i am leaning towards adding 1.5" to rim (widening to 11.5") and going with 315/30/20 as a first step. This seems like a good combo to get more rubber to the road and still have some wiggle room in the wheel well.

I take her to the drag strip a few times a year and for that I have kept stock rears (18") with Nitto 555R.

I plan to go to road course this year for first time. I have heard it is a blast but have never been. for the track and for daily use I am planning on using the widened alcoas with the 315/30/20. I have NO DOUBT about what lee says regarding the 335's and his pics look incredible. I just am not as comfortable trimming the bump stop bracket at this point and am worried that, because the 335's are so tight, on a road course there may be enough sway in the rear end to make them rub.

My plan is to start with this combo (315/35/20) and the 11.5 inch rim. This will have identical profile as stock alcoas with stock tires (.4" overhang). If this is STILL not enough rubber for me then when this set wears out i will go to 335's and trim bumpstop. the overhang with 335's and 11.5" rim will be only be .8"... so only .4" more than stock profile which I would be OK with.

There is a dunlop 325/30/20 but they are $810 a peice.

I am also considering a relocation bracket for the LCA's to drop the connection an inch or two. The LCA's are upsloped at idle stance and I was told that lowering the axle end of the LCA's would help get more bite on the tire?

any thoughts or comments before I pull the trigger are welcomed!

PS- Just ordered KR exhaust yesterday.... If winter doesn't end soon I'll go broke!

Robert M · January 10, 2010

Thanks. Your car looks great BTW.

Like you I have been following Lee's mods to get more rubber to road.

I'm sending my rear rims for widening this week. I have spent alot of time thinking and looking at tire/wheel combos.

I have gone back and forth but right now i am leaning towards adding 1.5" to rim (widening to 11.5") and going with 315/35/20 as a first step. The Nitto NT05 seems to be getting pretty good press. almost like a hybrid between drag radial and road tire. I know it will not do well in cold/wet road conditions but I am not really concerned about anything but dry warm driving conditions. I take her out occasionally during winter when roads clear up to keep the battery charged and circulate the fluids but thats about it. In the warm months i drive more often but rarely get caught in rain. It doesn't really rain all that often in Denver. This seems like a good combo to get more rubber to the road and still have some wiggle room in the wheel well.

I take her to the drag strip a few times a year and for that I have kept stock rears (18") with Nitto 555R.

I plan to go to road course this year for first time. I have heard it is a blast but have never been. for the track and for daily use I am planning on using the widened alcoas with the 315/35/20. I have NO DOUBT about what lee says regarding the 335's and his pics look incredible. I just am not as comfortable trimming the bump stop bracket at this point and am worried that, because the 335's are so tight, on a road course there may be enough sway in the rear end to make them rub.

My plan is to start with this combo (315/35/20) and the 11.5 inch rim. This will have identical profile as stock alcoas with stock tires (.4" overhang). If this is STILL not enough rubber for me then when this set wears out i will go to 335's and trim bumpstop. the overhang with 335's and 11.5" rim will be only be .8"... so only .4" more than stock profile which I would be OK with.

There is a dunlop 325/30/20 but they are $810 a peice.

I am also considering a relocation bracket for the LCA's to drop the connection an inch or two. The LCA's are upsloped at idle stance and I was told that lowering the axle end of the LCA's would help get more bite on the tire?

any thoughts or comments before I pull the trigger are welcomed!

PS- Just ordered KR exhaust yesterday.... If winter doesn't end soon I'll go broke!

Please post pix of this 315/11.5 set-up when you get them put together. I am still floudering on which direction to go, and like you, I have followed this from the beginning (since the time that Shelby had announced they were going to offer an 11" Super Snake Alcoa). Much has happened since that time.

R

miamimtg · January 10, 2010

Thanks. Your car looks great BTW.

Like you I have been following Lee's mods to get more rubber to road.

I'm sending my rear rims for widening this week. I have spent alot of time thinking and looking at tire/wheel combos.

I have gone back and forth but right now i am leaning towards adding 1.5" to rim (widening to 11.5") and going with 315/35/20 as a first step. The Nitto NT05 seems to be getting pretty good press. almost like a hybrid between drag radial and road tire. I know it will not do well in cold/wet road conditions but I am not really concerned about anything but dry warm driving conditions. I take her out occasionally during winter when roads clear up to keep the battery charged and circulate the fluids but thats about it. In the warm months i drive more often but rarely get caught in rain. It doesn't really rain all that often in Denver. This seems like a good combo to get more rubber to the road and still have some wiggle room in the wheel well.

I take her to the drag strip a few times a year and for that I have kept stock rears (18") with Nitto 555R.

I plan to go to road course this year for first time. I have heard it is a blast but have never been. for the track and for daily use I am planning on using the widened alcoas with the 315/35/20. I have NO DOUBT about what lee says regarding the 335's and his pics look incredible. I just am not as comfortable trimming the bump stop bracket at this point and am worried that, because the 335's are so tight, on a road course there may be enough sway in the rear end to make them rub.

My plan is to start with this combo (315/35/20) and the 11.5 inch rim. This will have identical profile as stock alcoas with stock tires (.4" overhang). If this is STILL not enough rubber for me then when this set wears out i will go to 335's and trim bumpstop. the overhang with 335's and 11.5" rim will be only be .8"... so only .4" more than stock profile which I would be OK with.

There is a dunlop 325/30/20 but they are $810 a peice.

I am also considering a relocation bracket for the LCA's to drop the connection an inch or two. The LCA's are upsloped at idle stance and I was told that lowering the axle end of the LCA's would help get more bite on the tire?

any thoughts or comments before I pull the trigger are welcomed!

PS- Just ordered KR exhaust yesterday.... If winter doesn't end soon I'll go broke!

sounds like you have read all the threads and are making an educated decision on what 'fits' you.

wish i could get that far. i think even the maxed out 335s will not get me all of 1st gear so with that said i know i will need to go maximum, at least.

i hear people are tracking the 555R and the nto5R also, that they arent too bad.. I don't see how u can go wrong with the nt05 in a wide size. they are great for everything track, street but not rain or cold, handling, sticky for sum traction...

yes every1 says u need to correct those suspension angles, the lower control angle with a relo bracket and even the driveshaft entry angle sumthin sumthin...

not to mention panhard evening up the rear end square. but ive heard they already come with an adjustable panhard. ive yet to check.

i'm gonna go all the way - widen to 11.75 the wheels 335 the ps2's AND try a set of 335 nto5R drag radials for street racing and sho. prolly also look at a set of 18s for track and strip. as well i will do the suspension mods, up low controls the relo brackets, and my springs are TIGHT AS SHEEYYIITT, knocking my teeth out like a trampoline on the highway bouncing at 120 mph ++. seems wrong. eibach says 399 pound springs are in the front. everyone else uses like 250 for full race competition.....

likely i will do softer springs with the full grigs or steeda or the softer eibachs but thats after wheels and tires.

too bad this isn't easy like my porsche. its complicated for an Alzheimer's patient. i'm reading 3 years of threads and the fix for traction is hard 2 come by.

but i kno i will max her out and get there. i cant 'drift' her around town at every light.

miamimtg · January 10, 2010