FRPP?Whipple 400HP Dynoed

[ShowCar]

I just had two pulls done on the car and the numbers are a laughable 269HP and 254Tq at the wheels. The air fule ratio is 15.0 until 4,500rpm and then drops to 13.3 the rest of the pull. The car made these numbers stock from shelby. So I called Ford Racing who saw my graph and is investigating my issue. Heres the funny part, my car made more HP with the tune from MRT I put in the car last year. So we wait to hear back. Isnt hot rodding fun?

[68fastback]

Those AFs are certainlly not right. If AF was actually 15.0 up to 4.5K rpm at WOT your engine would be knock like a old diesel and blow a hole in a piston in short order.

 

As far as the stock 269 rwHP goes, that's +/- 316 at the crank ...with an assumed .85 inverted-loss factor that's right about where it should be, so that also supports that those AFs are totally bogus, imo. If anything SGTs run a bit rich at WOT ...WOT AFs of 10.x-11 are not uncommon for a stock SGT.

 

Maybe talk to the shop and ask how they measured your AF because even a tailpipe sniffer won't be off more than a few .x points if it's working right (but you want your AFs measured with a wideband sniffer in a bung in the header/pipe *before* the cats).

 

Hope you figure out what's up.

 

-Dan

 

Edit: friend just sent me a note (thanks, Mark) saying the above was with the Whipple *on* ...I thought you had reverted to stock in the above post. All I can say is Yikes! Might be pulling timing like crazy due to high IAT2s? Those AFs are still bizarre tho.

[tispco]

smitty on TMS had a similar problem. The cause of his problem was unmetered air getting in the system. It was leaking through his intake, but in your case, you already have the improved intake. So, it is probably not your intake, but maybe you have a leak somewhere else. See the link below. If you don't find an air leak, call Ford Racing and have them verify your tune. I had issues with my FRPP tune and that is how I ended up with the custom tune. I hope you get it fixed quickly!

 

TMS Thread on Whipple problem

[ShowCar]

Tispco, I sent them that post earlier this morning when I found it. Thanks for finding that post. The thing that gets me is the car is inconsistant on the street and track. At first I thought it was me on the track but the dyno proves something is not right. Being a guy into DETAILS I check for every possible cause and the tune seems to be the culprit. The things I was told by the guy at FRPP is interesting like, The TCS is still on even when the button is shut off due to the new FRPP tune. The thing is I could do a burnout all day long in the dry box at the track and never have the TC engage. Even on the 1-2 shift there was no TC engagement. Then he said on the dyno the Throttle body closes when the car is heat soaked. The car was cold on the first pull. I could touch the SC with my bare hand before the pull. So that wasnt a issue. The second pull showed ten less HP so heat soak would be believeable on the second pull.

All A/F ratios were taken at the tail pipe. Ive seen 13.3 on N/A cars not on SC cars. We will see what happens.

[SGT/SC2873]

Tispco, I sent them that post earlier this morning when I found it. Thanks for finding that post. The thing that gets me is the car is inconsistant on the street and track. At first I thought it was me on the track but the dyno proves something is not right. Being a guy into DETAILS I check for every possible cause and the tune seems to be the culprit. The things I was told by the guy at FRPP is interesting like, The TCS is still on even when the button is shut off due to the new FRPP tune. The thing is I could do a burnout all day long in the dry box at the track and never have the TC engage. Even on the 1-2 shift there was no TC engagement. Then he said on the dyno the Throttle body closes when the car is heat soaked. The car was cold on the first pull. I could touch the SC with my bare hand before the pull. So that wasnt a issue. The second pull showed ten less HP so heat soak would be believeable on the second pull.

All A/F ratios were taken at the tail pipe. Ive seen 13.3 on N/A cars not on SC cars. We will see what happens.

dang, keep us posted Showcar. I know one thing, once they do get it right, not even Showcar products will stick! Hope it's an easy fix. My AF was flatlined at 12 from 2500 rpms up to about 6200rpms. Craig

[Chill]

Bummer Steve. Keep us posted on your progress.

[greaser]

ouch 6 grand + for a loss isnt good i hope you get it worked out in short order.

[ShowCar]

Its fixed. :happy feet:

 

I found out the shop help installed the fuel pressure sensor on the vacuum side of the SC where you mount the vacuum booster hose. Instead of mounting the sensor to the port under the SC on the lower intake. I basically took the instruction booklet and retraced all the steps. One by one, and when I found it I said,

 

 

It turns out the ecm wont give more fuel if the sensor doesnt see a pressure change. I connected it properly and I drove her some more and its a totally different car even in 90+ degree heat. I made numerous calls to FRPP and asked alot of questions. Then I asked more questions. Now I have to call FRPP Monday and explain to them it was installer error.

 

Oh well thats hot rodding. Sometimes stupid things happen. Only this time luckily nothing broke.

[greaser]

sweet glad to hear it was an easy fix now about some money back on the install right?

[SGT/SC2873]

Its fixed. :happy feet:

 

I found out the shop help installed the fuel pressure sensor on the vacuum side of the SC where you mount the vacuum booster hose. Instead of mounting the sensor to the port under the SC on the lower intake. I basically took the instruction booklet and retraced all the steps. One by one, and when I found it I said,

 

 

It turns out the ecm wont give more fuel if the sensor doesnt see a pressure change. I connected it properly and I drove her some more and its a totally different car even in 90+ degree heat. I made numerous calls to FRPP and asked alot of questions. Then I asked more questions. Now I have to call FRPP Monday and explain to them it was installer error.

 

Oh well thats hot rodding. Sometimes stupid things happen. Only this time luckily nothing broke.

 

Glad to hear you got it fixed. Wow, that's like getting two new cars in less than a month! Now all we need is a video of your new burn outs! :happy feet:

[Chill]

Great news Steve!!

[tispco]

Glad to hear you found the problem and it was an easy fix. :happy feet:

[moabman]

Congratulations! Makes you feel good to troubleshoot the problem, doesn't it? I had a similar problem with two installations. When someone installed my FRPP shorty headers, they disconnected the Evaporative recirculation valve control on the drivers side and never re-attached after the install. It immediately threw a code. They also stuffed the plastic pan hard bolt cover in a coil spring when the removed the differential cover to replace the pinion and ring gears on 3.73 swap. It squeaked like crazy!

 

Just glad you didn't do any damage running that lean - I guess the ECU is pretty smart after all!

[ShowCar]

I cant get any money back. We did the install. There was three of us. To many hands under the hood I guess. Im trying to get in for a dyno this week.

 

The ECM in these cars is really smart. Thats why the car felt so strange, It was taking me right out of the drivers seat and running the show. Its good for the simple fact Ive seen cars run this lean repeatedly ( five 1/4mile runs, a few hard runs on the street, and two dyno pulls) and give up a ring land on the piston. So I was lucky and learned alot about the spanish oak ECM. Well off to make some calls.

[kahmann]

Congrats on the new found power. Glad to hear the ECM took over and you didn't do any damage to the engine.

I look forward to the dyno results.

 

Ken

[ShowCar]

Just got back from another dyno session. The first pull was 289hp and 267TQ. The dyno operator aborted due to a kickdown of the trans.

Six more pulls and as the car got hotter the number climbed. Which is odd for a SC car. Final numbers are

 

327HP and 305TQ SAE in 91degree shop. STD was 334HP and 315TQ

 

We noticed the traction control does turn on slightly as we smelled the rear brakes actually engaging. We also noticed after each pull the A/F was at 12.5 which meant the ECM was trying to cool the catalytic converters after each pull. We all felt in better air the car would make more power because it does not have the IC. In conclusion there are many many fail safes put in the tune to keep us out of the service department warranty claims. We will see whats next.

[HORSBYT]

I used the FRPP tune, with the open air element (which Whipple ususally want to re-flash the PCM themselves for) but I opted not to. My first dyno pulls resulted in 353RWHP/347TQ. I am running 4:10's which is shaving a few HP's off as well... I think you should be at least where I'm at. That 296 numbers seems very odd.... By the way, I never did the re-flash. I sent my dyno sheets to Whipple for their review and comments and they said A/F, HP/TQ all looked good and commented that it was making good power for the kit...

[ShowCar]

Horsbyt, I see what you mean but when a electronic automatic trans is in the car it changes alot of things. Plus it was ninety degrees in thew shop. We were baking just standing in there. So I could imagine the SC trying to compress HOT air. Do you remember your A/F ratio?

[HORSBYT]

Here's my dyno sheet.... A/F was right where it should be.. in the 12's.

DynoResults.pdf

DynoResults.pdf

[Chill]

I have an automatic as well and that is a major reason I am planning on the 400hp Whipple. I thought we with autos would see results similar to Horsbyt's. Seems like we should, Steve, so your situation puzzles me. I know you'll keep after it and will continue to let us know. Best of luck!

Chuck

[ShowCar]

Ive been on the phone and sent numerous emails with Ray at FRPP and he stands by the fact the auto will dyno lower because,

 

the trans is fluid driven

Is sensitive to heat and cuts power (timing and so on) once its hot

 

 

Unless I see another dyno sheet thats higher for a automatic Im happy with the outcome. A while ago Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords did a FRPP SC on a 06 Mustang GT and got similar results. Read this.

 

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/proj...tall/index.html

 

Ive read on TheMustangSource.com of similar results too. Ive done enough research before I bought this kit knowing full well I wasnt going to see huge numbers. Its simple a Mustang GT Auto puts down about 250hp at the wheels stock and about that torque. So I gained a good amount when you do the math. Plus the car is night and day quicker than it was.

Horsbyt, Thanks for the graph.

[68fastback]

Glad you got it figured out, ShowCar! :happy feet:

 

Dan

[tispco]

Plus the car is night and day quicker than it was.

 

IMO, this is the most important part of the entire install. It is all about the fun factor. Enjoy the new power (and the blower whine too)

[08sgt1042]

Show car with all the research you have done what are the numbers for a standard transmisson suppose to be?? Curious trying to figure out what I want 400 or 550 with this 4.6 worry about the strength of the internals once it is S/C.

[SWEDEMAN]

Those number do not even seem close to being right. But if they are, knowing what you know now;

1) Would you do the 550 Whipple or stay where your at.

2) Do you feel you have a $6000+ mod for that type of HP?

 

Note: Please leave the pride at home on this answer.

 

Thanks and best of luck.

[HORSBYT]

Those number do not even seem close to being right. But if they are, knowing what you know now;

1) Would you do the 550 Whipple or stay where your at.

2) Do you feel you have a $6000+ mod for that type of HP?

 

Note: Please leave the pride at home on this answer.

 

Thanks and best of luck.

 

 

And I always thought I had a pessimistic attitude. I know what i'd say if someone asked me that question, in that kind of tone....

[Chill]

Steve, re-read your post and the article, thanks! 334/315 would sure work for me! I didn't (and still don't) pretend to understand the numbers going up as it got hotter but then I know very little about these modular engines, automatic transmissions and dyno tunes. I just know I love to drive these cars and wish I had the bucks right now to do what you did!! Like others on the team, glad you got it worked out and congratulations!!

 

Chuck

[Chill]

Those number do not even seem close to being right. But if they are, knowing what you know now;

1) Would you do the 550 Whipple or stay where your at.

2) Do you feel you have a $6000+ mod for that type of HP?

 

Note: Please leave the pride at home on this answer.

 

Thanks and best of luck.

 

 

Swedman,

 

I don't have a blower as yet so I can't answer the "would you" question posed to Steve as an informed owner. But, I think, based on an earlier thread the most you can put on the auto is the 475 Whipple which is the HO with a different pulley (I'm sure you can put the 550 on if you want but my understanding is the 475 is the only one offered by FRPP). If I recall correctly one member here was the first install of this kind (I'd love a ride in that baby!). Steve did his own install but I would have to pay to have it done. So, the additional 75HP would cost me the cost differential of the two kits plus any cost differential for installation. I don't know all those numbers but for my purposes I don't believe I'd make the jump. Someday I hope I'll be able to actually answer a question like this!!

 

Chuck

[ShowCar]

Swedeman, The pride is left at home and Ill answer your questions in order asked,

 

I WILL NOT be doing the 550HP kit anytime soon until I build the trans up to handle the abuse. I have owned multiple power adder cars in the past and this one is not the fastest. I knew full well I wasnt going to win any horsepower wars. The car runs mid twelves in the quarter mile and suprises alot of cars with more HP simply because it is a automatic and very very consistant on the track. I have no regrets. I would say if you want good horsepower and want to have fun the 400HP kit is money well spent.

 

Now for the $6,000 price tag. I spent now where near that for the SC kit. I wont state the price but its no where near retail price which is 5,630 retail or jobbers which is around 5,100.00. Lets just say I GOT PEOPLE. The install was my time and a couple of pizza's and beer for the help.

 

Now anyone who sees the car on the 1/4 mile track or high speed autocross track will see why I did it. Mainly because I like to have fun and fun costs money. How much fun can you afford?

[ShowCar]

I almost forgot to add she turned 12.60 at 112mph last night.

 

I decided to throw out the dyno numbers and see what the old 1320 showed.