69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Ok. So I read all your posts and still have no idea to what point you are making to (I assume) me since you kept quoting me.You discuss the proper sentence structure of the clause based on the time and the definition of a Militia which all come back to the people. Yes I agree, "Militia" is a broad term used for more than military but one can not escape the fact as it is written in the 2nd amendment, "a regulated Militia" and the "right of the people" are two separate thoughts. This separation neither enhances or negates one or the other. I though my question posed was pretty straight forward, as I am a State's rights type of person. I have said before that I am not a political person but guns are a very sensitive subject to me. Stump- two separate thoughts but... there is no doubt that while discussed in the context of the militia our founding father's intended this to be a personal right. “The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner.” and . In part the opinion stated: “The Second Amendment secures a personal right of individuals, not a collective right that may be invoked only by a State or a quasi-collective right restricted to those persons who serve in organized militia units.” and most importantly: Operative clause: right of the people. The original Constitution and the Bill of Rights use the phrase “right of the people” or similar language three times other than in the Second Amendment. All three of these usages unambiguously refer to individual rights, not collective rights or rights that may be exercised only through participation in some corporate body. Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people” in a context other than rights. These provisions arguably refer to “the people” acting collectively, but they deal with the reservation of powers. (2008 WL 2520816, p. 5.) In the six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not to an unspecified subset. This contrasts markedly with the term “militia” in the prefatory clause, because the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people,” i.e., those who were male, able-bodied, and of appropriate age. Thus, reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear arms” in an organized militia fits poorly with the operative clause's description of the holder of that right as “the people.” (2008 WL 2520816, p. 5.) In other words the Constitution guaranteed the right to bear arms to the people. Liberals tried to say it meant only the militia. But the term the people is used in other context in the Constitution as in the right of the people to be free from unreasonalbe search and seizure, etc. and those all referred to all of the people. The court held you had to have a consistent defining of the term the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jefferson was also VERY pro-states rights his original thinking was that the role of the Federal government was to protect the common rights of the people, deal with foreign powers, regulate and facilitate trade between the states, and protect the country. Everything else should be left to the states themselves. Jeff, when you say everything else shoudl be left to the states themselves....would that include their future, their freedom and the right to secede? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 I'm trying to talk with you but your just badgering me now and looking to pick a fight. Jim posted quotes that were said to have been Jefferson's I only showed which were fake or taken out of context. You're the one that's inserted yourself into this and going off on me. Why I don't know. Let's look at the Front page here and list the topics created by the right: Thomas Jefferson on Gun Control WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR FINANCIAL MELT DOWN Way to Go Texas! More Troubling news about Nancy Pelosi...... Obama Cuts Budget, Saves USA Economy If The Media Isn't Left, Why Didn't This Hit Nat'l News? Car Czar Obama Obama on Pirates First Lady Spleres on $540 Sneekers..... Obama Man Can Obama Ignorance ANOTHER Obama Flip-Flop!! Military Trials for Gitmo Anti-tax protests Hummm...so I respond with facts and suddenly I'm the issue? Have fun! :happy feet: Jeff, you sometimes seem to blur facts from your opinion or selectively search for facts to support your opinion while disregarding others. And if you note that many threads are conservative in nature it is because the majority of people that engage in discussion here are not socialists. You are a reasonalby nice guy, just you lean left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, when you responded with a stupid comment you exceeded our expectations. Only kidding. But you left yourself open for that one. Been doing that a lot lately! I think I'm coming down with something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, when you say everything else shoudl be left to the states themselves....would that include their future, their freedom and the right to secede? LOL...I'm not taking yout bait! You can shake that cookie of secession in frnt of my face all you want but I'm not taking it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Been doing that a lot lately! I think I'm coming down with something! Remember liberalism is a disease. But there is a cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 LOL...I'm not taking yout bait! You can shake that cookie of secession in frnt of my face all you want but I'm not taking it! Jeff, you really should use a different soft ware that will allow the ability to point out your typos. Usually it will underline in red the misspelled words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, you sometimes seem to blur facts from your opinion or selectively search for facts to support your opinion while disregarding others. And if you note that many threads are conservative in nature it is because the majority of people that engage in discussion here are not socialists. You are a reasonalby nice guy, just you lean left. One sides "blur" is another sides "interpretation", one sides "out of context" and another sides "distilled edit". But no matter what you call it, everyone searches for things to support and bolster their argument. I would, and know you will, do the same to support your point of view...that's what a debate should be. I just wish people would quote primary sources or places like the Jefferson Library and not some hack web site or blog. If you find something on such a site, take a few minutes to reflect and check it, you may find, as I did, that the quotes are fake but find actual quotes that prove the point even better, as I did. I just didn't post them here...because of what I call "selective posting". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, you really should use a different soft ware that will allow the ability to point out your typos. Usually it will underline in red the misspelled words. Weird, it's not showing that as a misspelled word, ONLY in that message, when I type frnt here, it flags it. Bad browser... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, you stated you don't feel well. It is raining in the mid-west. You live in the Chicago area. You have been infected by the disease of liberalism. May I suggest you change your environment and move out west where it is bright and sunny. It will do wonders for your depression and give you a new outlook on life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, you really should use a different soft ware that will allow the ability to point out your typos. Usually it will underline in red the misspelled words. Hmm, I knew what he meant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Jeff, you stated you don't feel well. It is raining in the mid-west. You live in the Chicago area. You have been infected by the disease of liberalism. May I suggest you change your environment and move out west where it is bright and sunny. It will do wonders for your depression and give you a new outlook on life. I used to live in CA! I so miss the warmer, less rain, weather! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Hmm, I knew what he meant So did I. But I took the opportunity to remind Jeff of when he told me I had misspelled a word. In my case it was more likely because of the damn microprint on this site prevents me from reading, in detail, before I send. Jeff had previously mentioned I should switch software to catch typos. Touche' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 I used to live in CA! I so miss the warmer, less rain, weather! Well that explains some of it. CA, Chicago. No wonder you are liberal and depressed. Next time don't go so far West. Stop in Montanna, Wyoming, AZ, TEXAS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stump_breaker Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Stump- two separate thoughts but... there is no doubt that while discussed in the context of the militia our founding father's intended this to be a personal right. Are we disagreeing about something here because frankly I'm not sure. Excuse me while I go clean my .30 Carbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 Are we disagreeing about something here because frankly I'm not sure. Excuse me while I go clean my .30 Carbine. Other than the quote, I dont think so Already cleaned the .223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportscars Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Other than the quote, I dont think so Already cleaned the .223 Oh, I miss my .223 And I can't afford one now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 The price has skyrocketed. and so has ammo. All calibers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I'm trying to talk with you but your just badgering me now and looking to pick a fight. Jim posted quotes that were said to have been Jefferson's I only showed which were fake or taken out of context. You're the one that's inserted yourself into this and going off on me. Why I don't know. Let's look at the Front page here and list the topics created by the right: Thomas Jefferson on Gun Control WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR FINANCIAL MELT DOWN Way to Go Texas! More Troubling news about Nancy Pelosi...... Obama Cuts Budget, Saves USA Economy If The Media Isn't Left, Why Didn't This Hit Nat'l News? Car Czar Obama Obama on Pirates First Lady Spleres on $540 Sneekers..... Obama Man Can Obama Ignorance ANOTHER Obama Flip-Flop!! Military Trials for Gitmo Anti-tax protests Hummm...so I respond with facts and suddenly I'm the issue? Have fun! :happy feet: Your PM: "What is your issue? Seriously. ????" This is you trying to talk to me? You could have simply stated that you checked sources and discovered that Jefferson never said that. Instead, you decided to attack Jim with tangential remarks laced with condescension, (both verbal and emoticon), rather than address the topic of gun control. You later state, “Funny, I actually found quite a few quotes in my search by words like "Arms" or "Guns" etc., that would support your position that's why I think it's silly that some of these gun sites would use false quotes when there are plenty of real ones they could hang there [sic] hat on." Emphasis mine. I cannot recall any of those threads that you have listed above, nor any other political post for that matter, as being started by Jim. You've seemed to have lumped him in with Jay Dub and TurnSignalDelete and simply pounced on him as if he were they, and I think that is totally unfair...for a "Moderator". Now, you want to make me out as if I attacked you without cause and call my remarks "stupid"? Whatever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Your PM: "What is your issue? Seriously. ????" This is you trying to talk to me? You could have simply stated that you checked sources and discovered that Jefferson never said that. Instead, you decided to attack Jim with tangential remarks laced with condescension, (both verbal and emoticon), rather than address the topic of gun control. You later state, “Funny, I actually found quite a few quotes in my search by words like "Arms" or "Guns" etc., that would support your position that's why I think it's silly that some of these gun sites would use false quotes when there are plenty of real ones they could hang there [sic] hat on." Emphasis mine. I cannot recall any of those threads that you have listed above, nor any other political post for that matter, as being started by Jim. You've seemed to have lumped him in with Jay Dub and TurnSignalDelete and simply pounced on him as if he were they, and I think that is totally unfair...for a "Moderator". Now, you want to make me out as if I attacked you without cause and call my remarks "stupid"? Whatever! Jim and I have talked off line, he reached out to me after you first posted, and told me he didn't see my reply as you had but rather how I meant it. I didn't attribute any of those threads to Jim. I think it's best we walk away from this now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnsignaldelete Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Jim and I have talked off line, he reached out to me after you first posted, and told me he didn't see my reply as you had but rather how I meant it. I didn't attribute any of those threads to Jim. I think it's best we walk away from this now. “When men are most sure and arrogant they are commonly most mistaken, giving views to passion without that proper deliberation which alone can secure them from the grossest absurdities” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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