Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Two questions that have not been fully answered on this or any forum that I've seen to date. #1-will the warranty be voided if a tune is done, also if the computer is re-flashed to stock before taking it in to dealer, will the dealer know for sure that it has had a tune (even if you accidentally leave the lights on and battery drained, LOL. ) ???? #2- What will be the top speed in 6th gear be after a safe tune and eliminating the speed limiter. I'm just taking a guess, 190-200 mph would be possible. After 200 mph aerodynamic issues come into play in the safety area, car lifting, etc. When I was a factory rider for HD, I was at the track at Talladega when Bill Elliot broke a speedway record in the early 80s, think it was a very cool, fall, day and they had rented the track for a couple of days. The crew was freaking out because a few drivers had already went airborne at Daytona, I think Bobby Allison was one name that stands out when he started flying with no wings. If my memory serves me correct, 205 is the magic number at the time when things get hairy. The fastest I've been has been 164 mph and at the time I was scared *hitless. Like seeing the big light at the end of the tunnel. Update on my car, I'm still smiling ear to ear even after 3 weeks of driving this heavenly machine. I have 1033 miles so far, trouble free. I think I could be the luckiest guy on this forum. I think everyone that bought one in the Tampa area have turned theirs into garage queens. Traveled around most of the city visiting friends this past weekend and no one yet has seen one except for mine. I've seen only one vista blue so far and that's it. It is very, very, hard not to feel special!! LOL Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckstang Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Two questions that have not been fully answered on this or any forum that I've seen to date. #1-will the warranty be voided if a tune is done, also if the computer is re-flashed to stock before taking it in to dealer, will the dealer know for sure that it has had a tune (even if you accidentally leave the lights on and battery drained, LOL. ) ???? #2- What will be the top speed in 6th gear be after a safe tune and eliminating the speed limiter. I'm just taking a guess, 190-200 mph would be possible. After 200 mph aerodynamic issues come into play in the safety area, car lifting, etc. When I was a factory rider for HD, I was at the track at Talladega when Bill Elliot broke a speedway record in the early 80s, think it was a very cool, fall, day and they had rented the track for a couple of days. The crew was freaking out because a few drivers had already went airborne at Daytona, I think Bobby Allison was one name that stands out when he started flying with no wings. If my memory serves me correct, 205 is the magic number at the time when things get hairy. The fastest I've been has been 164 mph and at the time I was scared *hitless. Like seeing the big light at the end of the tunnel. Update on my car, I'm still smiling ear to ear even after 3 weeks of driving this heavenly machine. I have 1033 miles so far, trouble free. I think I could be the luckiest guy on this forum. I think everyone that bought one in the Tampa area have turned theirs into garage queens. Traveled around most of the city visiting friends this past weekend and no one yet has seen one except for mine. I've seen only one vista blue so far and that's it. It is very, very, hard not to feel special!! LOL Scott I am pretty sure the dealer will know and you will not hit 200mph in this car regardless of aero. On the salt flats, with the right mods, perhaps. But 185 should be possible on the street if you are brave enough, otherwise as you know the governor limits it to 155. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I am pretty sure the dealer will know and you will not hit 200mph in this car regardless of aero. On the salt flats, with the right mods, perhaps. But 185 should be possible on the street if you are brave enough, otherwise as you know the governor limits it to 155. When I picked mine up from a small dealer, I asked them if they could check the fuel mixture, told them most were running rich, they said their equipment couldn't check that, rather surprised at that. Big dealers might be different. Mine will be serviced by a different dealer than the one I bought it from, two hundred miles away. When you said 185 mph, were you taking in the consideration that a tune will bump the HP up 40-50 plus. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badsho Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 When I picked mine up from a small dealer, I asked them if they could check the fuel mixture, told them most were running rich, they said their equipment couldn't check that, rather surprised at that. Big dealers might be different. Mine will be serviced by a different dealer than the one I bought it from, two hundred miles away. When you said 185 mph, were you taking in the consideration that a tune will bump the HP up 40-50 plus. Scott Jason of VMP tuning out of Oveida Fl can tune the car or have a program sent to you. He has already done a few Shelbys and when mine gets here he'll do that as well. I plan to take the top end limiter out and his tune with a CAI should get u close to 500 rwhp Extrapolates out to about 575 hp at the crank .. than I am done .. YA RIGHT ! I do want to do one high speed run .. so I am going to have some cops that I know help me on deserted road .... or try to get on Fords test track in Naples Florida . Supposedly its about a 7 mile track that they test cars. Since I work for a ford store .. should be able to get in. dond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Jason of VMP tuning out of Oveida Fl can tune the car or have a program sent to you. He has already done a few Shelbys and when mine gets here he'll do that as well. I plan to take the top end limiter out and his tune with a CAI should get u close to 500 rwhp Extrapolates out to about 575 hp at the crank .. than I am done .. YA RIGHT ! I do want to do one high speed run .. so I am going to have some cops that I know help me on deserted road .... or try to get on Fords test track in Naples Florida . Supposedly its about a 7 mile track that they test cars. Since I work for a ford store .. should be able to get in. dond Before you do it, give me a call, I can provide a few c notes towards a bbq or something. I''m just a few hours from you. I'm going to wait til I get 25-3000 miles before I get a tune and cai. I will be getting it from VPM, like the results so far from them. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 1badsho, A few miles south of me on I-75 there is a good stretch of road that I've open up before, I've got a few friends that would jump at the chance for spotters. Hell, they will stop the traffic for me. My space is open if yours is. LOL Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badsho Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 1badsho, A few miles south of me on I-75 there is a good stretch of road that I've open up before, I've got a few friends that would jump at the chance for spotters. Hell, they will stop the traffic for me. My space is open if yours is. LOL Scott scott sounds good .... definitly need some spotters or the road cleared ... prob would bring my race helmet too .. esp going those speeds ... though i dont expect any issues. Just want to do it one time once I get it tuned and the top end limiter removed. where abouts are u ? Im in Port Charlotte florida dond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 scott sounds good .... definitly need some spotters or the road cleared ... prob would bring my race helmet too .. esp going those speeds ... though i dont expect any issues. Just want to do it one time once I get it tuned and the top end limiter removed. where abouts are u ? Im in Port Charlotte florida dond Just north of you, I'm in Lutz, burb of north Tampa, bout 1 1/2 hours away I think. I'm 47 and no scares yet, except for the knees being blowed out, so safety will be #1 issue for what we'll do. We can use GPS or the guns for speed monitoring. 185 mph I can live with, but after that, guess I can put another plague on the wall. S Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VNMOUS1 Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Two questions that have not been fully answered on this or any forum that I've seen to date. #1-will the warranty be voided if a tune is done, also if the computer is re-flashed to stock before taking it in to dealer, will the dealer know for sure that it has had a tune (even if you accidentally leave the lights on and battery drained, LOL. ) ???? #2- What will be the top speed in 6th gear be after a safe tune and eliminating the speed limiter. I'm just taking a guess, 190-200 mph would be possible. After 200 mph aerodynamic issues come into play in the safety area, car lifting, etc. When I was a factory rider for HD, I was at the track at Talladega when Bill Elliot broke a speedway record in the early 80s, think it was a very cool, fall, day and they had rented the track for a couple of days. The crew was freaking out because a few drivers had already went airborne at Daytona, I think Bobby Allison was one name that stands out when he started flying with no wings. If my memory serves me correct, 205 is the magic number at the time when things get hairy. IF something breaks and they can prove that it's in some way attributed to your modifying the car, then you're SOL. Things as simple as a gear swap have voided warranties (the story was 'higher rpms at a given speed=more stress and wear' and yes, GM won the arbitration). No, they can't tell you did it if you re-flash it back to stock. Just did it...and they just did a diagnostics...and they saw nada. Top speed on your car won't likely be in 6th gear. It'll most likely be in 5th. 5th is fairly high and 6th is just nuts. That, coupled with the aerodynamics of a shoebox don't bode well for top speed in the 200 range. I don't think I could drop mine off the Sears Tower and get it to see 200 before it hit. The chances of your car going airborne are exactly the same as the winged monkeys flying out of my....no, wait...they CAN fly. Sorry. I'm wrong on that one. But your car still isn't going airborne. If it does, call Cessna. They've been trying to figure this out for some time now. Finally...I see someone mentioning that 500 at the tires is 575 at the motor. It's been debated ad nauseum here, but the fact is that it would take 590 or so at the motor to net 500 at the wheels, given a 15% driveline loss. Enjoy your ride!!! bj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badsho Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 IF something breaks and they can prove that it's in some way attributed to your modifying the car, then you're SOL. Things as simple as a gear swap have voided warranties (the story was 'higher rpms at a given speed=more stress and wear' and yes, GM won the arbitration). No, they can't tell you did it if you re-flash it back to stock. Just did it...and they just did a diagnostics...and they saw nada. Top speed on your car won't likely be in 6th gear. It'll most likely be in 5th. 5th is fairly high and 6th is just nuts. That, coupled with the aerodynamics of a shoebox don't bode well for top speed in the 200 range. I don't think I could drop mine off the Sears Tower and get it to see 200 before it hit. The chances of your car going airborne are exactly the same as the winged monkeys flying out of my....no, wait...they CAN fly. Sorry. I'm wrong on that one. But your car still isn't going airborne. If it does, call Cessna. They've been trying to figure this out for some time now. Finally...I see someone mentioning that 500 at the tires is 575 at the motor. It's been debated ad nauseum here, but the fact is that it would take 590 or so at the motor to net 500 at the wheels, given a 15% driveline loss. Enjoy your ride!!! bj Math was never my strong suit ! SHOOT ME ... IM THAT SOMEONE ! oK back to reality .. just had to vent ! I thought I heard that the sheblys put about 430-440 rwhp .. At 590hp at the crank .. a 15 % drivetrain loss equates to 501.5 rwhp. Great ... we agree but at rwhp, what is the proper formula to get the est hp at the crank? dond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpretzel Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Math was never my strong suit ! SHOOT ME ... IM THAT SOMEONE ! oK back to reality .. just had to vent ! I thought I heard that the sheblys put about 430-440 rwhp .. At 590hp at the crank .. a 15 % drivetrain loss equates to 501.5 rwhp. Great ... we agree but at rwhp, what is the proper formula to get the est hp at the crank? dond Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, divide the rwhp number by 0.85 430 rwhp / 0.85 = 505.9 hp @ crank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badsho Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, divide the rwhp number by 0.85 430 rwhp / 0.85 = 505.9 hp @ crank. thank you kind sir ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 VNMOUS1- If I'm not mistaken, you've had a tune on yours, what do you think your top end is? Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropping__Chronic Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Two questions that have not been fully answered on this or any forum that I've seen to date. #1-will the warranty be voided if a tune is done, also if the computer is re-flashed to stock before taking it in to dealer, will the dealer know for sure that it has had a tune (even if you accidentally leave the lights on and battery drained, LOL. ) ???? #2- What will be the top speed in 6th gear be after a safe tune and eliminating the speed limiter. I'm just taking a guess, 190-200 mph would be possible. After 200 mph aerodynamic issues come into play in the safety area, car lifting, etc. When I was a factory rider for HD, I was at the track at Talladega when Bill Elliot broke a speedway record in the early 80s, think it was a very cool, fall, day and they had rented the track for a couple of days. The crew was freaking out because a few drivers had already went airborne at Daytona, I think Bobby Allison was one name that stands out when he started flying with no wings. If my memory serves me correct, 205 is the magic number at the time when things get hairy. The fastest I've been has been 164 mph and at the time I was scared *hitless. Like seeing the big light at the end of the tunnel. Update on my car, I'm still smiling ear to ear even after 3 weeks of driving this heavenly machine. I have 1033 miles so far, trouble free. I think I could be the luckiest guy on this forum. I think everyone that bought one in the Tampa area have turned theirs into garage queens. Traveled around most of the city visiting friends this past weekend and no one yet has seen one except for mine. I've seen only one vista blue so far and that's it. It is very, very, hard not to feel special!! LOL Scott I think about 180ish, it's drag limited by the aerodynamics of the car... I think 200 would be a tough sell in a stock one. I've taken my car to 155 it wasn't scary, just enjoyed watching the scenery get all blurry around me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzcat Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I think about 180ish, it's drag limited by the aerodynamics of the car... I think 200 would be a tough sell in a stock one. I've taken my car to 155 it wasn't scary, just enjoyed watching the scenery get all blurry around me . Even though I'm the average age of most here, I think most here have bought them as a trophy or again good sounding garage queens, tis bullshit seems to be the item of the day. I doubt very seriously anybody here has the balls to peg the needle without the tune, God forbid with a tune. Lutzcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTony Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, divide the rwhp number by 0.85 430 rwhp / 0.85 = 505.9 hp @ crank. can anyone describe drive line loss and how it occurs? where does this horsepower go? how is it mathematically calculated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 can anyone describe drive line loss and how it occurs? where does this horsepower go? how is it mathematically calculated? See if this link helps you...it has a picture too http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transp...rgy_losses.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTony Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 ok - that explains 5.6% , how about the 15% discussed here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpretzel Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 can anyone describe drive line loss and how it occurs? where does this horsepower go? how is it mathematically calculated? Drive train loss occurs due to friction and enertia. All the parts of the drivetrain past the crank (tranny, differential, etc.) have mass and it takes work (horsepower if you will) to move them. Additionally, all these parts generate friction when moved, e.g. bearings and gears. It takes additional work to overcome this friction. This results in a lower horesepower reading at the wheels. Where does this horsepower go? Well, mainly is released as heat. The laws of conservation of energy dictate that if heat is generated at any point, the kinetic energy at the end point will be less than the beginning point. 15% loss seems to be a general loss estimate. The only way to truely measure loss for your car is to measure horespower at the crank and then measure it at the rear wheels. The difference is the drivetrain loss. You could calulate this mathmatically but you would need to know the mass of all parts, the surface area of all points of contact and the exact viscosity of all oils and greases in the drivetrain. Temperature and humidity will also be factors. e=mc^2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 ok - that explains 5.6% , how about the 15% discussed here? I can't explain the whole thing but I think you forgot about the 4.2% Rolling Resistance + 12.6% for the rear end gear/tires/rims = another 16.8% total of 22.4% loss in total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTony Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 ok so how does 22.4% get calculated ? where does the 15% come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 ok so how does 22.4% get calculated ? where does the 15% come from? You didn't read the WHOLE article did you? The 15% you are talking about came from someone on the board who was using that as an example for explaining. Until an Chassis Dyno expert can come on the board & tell us what number they put in the dyno for compensation, we can only assume 15% is a guilde line for discussion purposes only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprint200 Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 . I think most here have bought them as a trophy or again good sounding garage queens, tis bullshit seems to be the item of the day. I doubt very seriously anybody here has the balls to peg the needle without the tune, God forbid with a tune. I can't speak for anyone but myself. In my case, I'm going to treat the paint etc. like a garage queen (heck, I even installed HVAC in the garage) BUT I'm gonna do my best to see if these fellas' math is as good as I think it is..... It's already seen 6k rpm more than once. :hyper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VNMOUS1 Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 You didn't read the WHOLE article did you? The 15% you are talking about came from someone on the boiard who was using that as an example for explaining. Until an Chassis Dyno expert can come on the board & tell us what number they put in the dynao for compensation, we can only assume 15% is a guilde line for discussion purposes only. Actually, the 15% is a (very) general loss for a manual transmission car. You might want to take a look at this.... performancesimulations.com/files/manual.doc ....for some nifty facts and figures. Going back to one of the questions about how it's measured at the crank/flywheel/engine: Back over 20 years ago they adopted a new rating system that still had the engine on a stand, but with all the goodies attached (power steering pump, etc). That's basically how it's done today when going for SAE certification. Gee, suddenly cars that "used to" tout 350 or more horses were down around 250! The old gross horsepower number was nothing but the engine....no pumps...no nothin'...on the stand. Factor in all the drag of the toys, then a tranny and the full driveline and these things weren't making nearly the horsepower that today's cars do. Every drivetrain varies. The only way to really get an exact figure is to do the two measurements. IF Ford gave you a readout of what your specific engine output was, you could put it against your RWHP with SAE corrections and know the loss you really have. That's the only way. Everything else is a generalization. The original poster asked about my car's top speed with a tune. The answer is "I don't know". I don't have a place to try it and I most certainly wouldn't do it on Goodyear F-1s at these temps. They're slick as snot on a doorknob at 30f. Trust me...I did it on the way to work this morning. Even more fun was the fact that there was a nice mist going on too! Anybody wanna do a group deal on Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S?? It's about the only brand (worth a crap) with an exact fit on factory rims. I wonder if I COULD break 200 off the Sears Tower with a tune?? bj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alloy Dave Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 ok - that explains 5.6% , how about the 15% discussed here? The 5.6% is the amount of the INPUT ENERGY...not OUTPUT HORSEPOWER. We are comparing apples to oranges. The driveline HP losses are due to a variety of frictional components. Think of it this way: When you run the car, the differential fluid heats up, right? Where does that heat come from? Friction...which is wasted energy/HP. In addition, when you launch hard, there is a twisting energy in the components like the driveshaft, so there are som minor losses there. The transmission is another one..similar to the differential. Then there are all the minor movements in the other parts. These are just a few examples. I don't think there is a perfect calculation, the 15% is just an estimate. Probably this number is a bit smaller in lower performance vehicles, as they can make the transmission more fuel efficient by making it "weaker". In other words, just look at the angle cut on the gears of the Muncie Rock Crusher vs. the other Muncies...the Rock Crusher gears are at a much lower angle to add strength...which then results in slightly more HP loss. Hope this helps. I'm sure there is much more to add...Jet will certainly have some good info here. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1fever Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Lutz I plan on going up to vmp as well, when Don does his. So maybe we can see eachother up there. Justin is a very capable tuner. Ford can see the date of the last time the computer was flashed, however they can not see who and what software you were using. This may have changed for the new cars, but they are still obd II so I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Friction - in the right context - can be a very good thing. :hyper: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Friction - in the right context - can be a very good thing. :hyper: But is that at the engine or the rear end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpretzel Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Good Lord! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Good Lord! WHAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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