Three Cobras Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I don't have all the answers, but here's what I see: Given: 1. You'll never please everyone, so look at the big stuff 2. Not everyone who says they'll never buy a Ford again because of (fill in blank) will follow through, but you should think as though they won't. 3. It's probably easier to keep one loyal customer than find three or four to replace him/her. 4. Thinking like a small company can be a good way to become one. The GT500 introduction - if that's the right term - is a good chance to put the corporate best foot forward. It seems to be two left feet to me. If you are determined to lose more of the customers that you presumably now realize you cannot afford to lose, keep on the current track. There's plenty of feedback here and elsewhere that seems not to be getting through to you. So I'll simplify it for you. 1. Don't promise something amid your own publicity, then cancel it a couple of months later. One word: Lightning. Did someone wake up one morning in April of 2004 and just figure out Ford was going to be producing both a redesigned F150 and a Mustang that fall? 2. Don't underestimate the knowledge of your potential customers. Talk like a suit to a performance crowd at your peril. Example: HTT remark about IRS 'snobs'. 3. Mustang is an icon because of what it does on the road. People will remember the new GT500 for what it does, not because some (fill in your own word here) spent $650K to spend $45K more for a car he won't drive much, if at all. Now, this does not say you should have put in an aluminum block 825HP engine for a no-cost option. But, the more of these people see on the road, the more people will want to buy them. Do the math. Ooops, poor word choice. Sorry. 4. Tell people what you know, or tell them when you'll know it. You already know - right now - what the price will be, how many you will build as a minimum, and when production will start. If you do not, well, I think we've found at least one of the problems. I'm available to consult. As I believe you do know these answers, tell us. You have irritated a large number of people you really, really, really need to help turn around the sales trends. If you read much of what's said here (and elsewhere), these folks buy other cars and trucks too. Even, gasp, ferrin' vehickles. Who'd blame them for thinking that if Ford handles a 'halo' car like this, why think it'd be different with other Ford vehicles? 5. Your dealers may appear to buy the cars, but the people really do. Frankly, I've dealt with both kinds of dealer talked about on these boards. If they're morons (the dealer), that's their problem. Where you come into this equation is that you want people to look elsewhere when they encounter those dealers. Trust me, you will be better off if the customer walks away from that dealer. But you want them to go to another Ford dealer. At least I assume you do. If all the product information most customers get is through the dealer, well, do I have to spell it out? Like I said - available for consulting, but not cheap. The point is, you want a good enough image that people will ignore lousy dealers. Look at the prices people happily pay for some other brands. And keep paying at every service call. So back to the GT500. Do it right. If you don't know how, post on this site or another - we'll tell you how to do it. Sure, there are some over the top folks who will never be satisfied and will have unreasonable wants. But, in the main, folks here are savvy and honest. Just for the record: three previous SVT Cobras, Powerlease Cobra guy right now. If I'm not happy enough to buy this car, you've got a problem. In the short term you'll sell the car I don't buy to someone else. But don't you really want to sell it to both of us? Think big picture here. The clock's ticking, Ford. Do you really want to change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawdude Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Just for the record: three previous SVT Cobras, Powerlease Cobra guy right now. If I'm not happy enough to buy this car, you've got a problem. In the short term you'll sell the car I don't buy to someone else. But don't you really want to sell it to both of us? Think big picture here. Haha, to quote myself from msg #19 of the Shelbys and Ford Dealers = ??? thread: I will be buying a new car this year. First preference is a Shelby. If I can get it at MSRP, I'll be driving a GT500. If dealer markup puts it in the price range of a C6, then it's a no brainer - I'll be driving a car with a bow-tie. I talk about the opportunity lost in msg #30 of the Shelbys and Ford Dealers = ??? thread. BTW, I've had 5 Fords in my lifetime, including a Fairlane, 3 Explorers (one of which my wife drives now), and one which shall remain unnamed since Ford is embarrassed to have manufactured it and I am embarrassed to have bought it. <added> Oh, I forgot about the F-100 PU (that's right 100, not 150), so that makes six. </added> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01ROUSH3GT Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 So back to the GT500. Do it right. If you don't know how, post on this site or another - we'll tell you how to do it. Sure, there are some over the top folks who will never be satisfied and will have unreasonable wants. But, in the main, folks here are savvy and honest. Just for the record: three previous SVT Cobras, Powerlease Cobra guy right now. If I'm not happy enough to buy this car, you've got a problem. In the short term you'll sell the car I don't buy to someone else. But don't you really want to sell it to both of us? Think big picture here. The clock's ticking, Ford. Do you really want to change? Amen. If you're running for office, you have my vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutchGT500 Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 So back to the GT500. Do it right. If you don't know how, post on this site or another - we'll tell you how to do it. Sure, there are some over the top folks who will never be satisfied and will have unreasonable wants. But, in the main, folks here are savvy and honest. Just for the record: three previous SVT Cobras, Powerlease Cobra guy right now. If I'm not happy enough to buy this car, you've got a problem. In the short term you'll sell the car I don't buy to someone else. But don't you really want to sell it to both of us? Think big picture here. The clock's ticking, Ford. Do you really want to change? Very smart words. On this forum most of us bleed blue. I have three Fords at the moment. Think big is what Ford should be doing and let's hope they do. Performance Mustang, Weekend camping/boating F150/Explorer/Expedition, Family Fun/Commuting Windstar/Freestyle/Edge. Do you get it Ford??? Your loyal customers are gold and must be treated like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastbackman Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Well said. All that posted. Very wise words. They may fall on deaf ears but all we can do is try to get through to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCobra Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Well, believe it or not, I don't own a Ford anything. I've never been a Ford fan. I've always been won over by the progressive thinking and design of the Europeans and Japanese. Ford has always (in my humble opinion), been too safe, too predictable, too uninspired for me. You want to talk inspired, Ford GT, Shelby GT500, Shelby Cobra Concept!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!! NOW I'M INSPIRED!!!!!!! Anybody that has kept up in this forum knows I'm a die-hard Shelby GT500 fan through and through. I had my right foot already in a Lotus Elise when the GT500 was anounced. The Shelby GT500 blasted me into the drivers seat, long before it even existed. Now if Ford keeps up with this thinking outside the box, designing for maximum emotional response, I'll become the fan of Ford, that I am now a fan of the GT500. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK FORD!!!!! YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!!!!! KingCobra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawdude Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I had my right foot already in a Lotus Elise when the GT500 was anounced. The Shelby GT500 blasted me into the drivers seat, long before it even existed. Now if Ford keeps up with this thinking outside the box, designing for maximum emotional response, I'll become the fan of Ford, that I am now a fan of the GT500. KingCobra. Wow, talk about a switch! From the "less is more" Elise that would leave virtually everything in its dust on the twisties to the "more is more and more is better" raw power of the GT500. Both are performance cars, but they are as different as night and day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCobra Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 You got that right!!! They are night and day from each other. But, in a way they're exactly the same. Both are dedicated to the extreme to thier basic principles, which are the same, from the opposite direction. Performance, to the Max!!! If the Lotus Elise had been supercharged or a V6, it would have been a very hard decision, but it didn't, and the GT500 has a supercharged V8. It's the epitome of testosterone on wheels, and a Shelby to boot!!!!!!! And, that's my final answer. KingCobra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawdude Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 And I suspect getting warranty work done just about anywhere in the country is another plus for the Shelby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVWSSV Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Bravo Three Cobras, Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I don't have all the answers, but here's what I see: 4. Tell people what you know, or tell them when you'll know it. You already know - right now - what the price will be, how many you will build as a minimum, and when production will start. If you do not, well, I think we've found at least one of the problems. I'm available to consult. As I believe you do know these answers, tell us. You have irritated a large number of people you really, really, really need to help turn around the sales trends. If you read much of what's said here (and elsewhere), these folks buy other cars and trucks too. Even, gasp, ferrin' vehickles. Who'd blame them for thinking that if Ford handles a 'halo' car like this, why think it'd be different with other Ford vehicles? I agree with most of your thoughts - especially #4 above. I can't tell if Ford's trying to either: 1) keep the suspense high... release bits of info to keep us wanting more or 2) are still working at cutting/stripping important parts out of the car in order to save a few bucks. Open up, show your cards! Can you imagine if they start making more changes? "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted February 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 This whole deal on the GT500 is really a very simple exercise when compared to solving world hunger. Heck, it's simple compared to designing or updating the F-150 or Taurus. Those vehicles have to appeal to the needs or whims of millions of people and be bought by hundreds of thousands every year. On this board we may disagree how many horsepower the GT500 'needs', but we surely don't disagree that it needs to be in the head pack of contenders. I don't see too many negative posts here or elsewhere regarding the lack of an automatic, yet only about 5% of the total U.S. market wants a manual transmission. I have never bought into the SVT 'exclusivity' gig. That is, why do I need to pay extra money so someone else can't have one of these cars? The folks that would consider buying a GT500 are already a select group compared the the market in general. I personally don't care if there are twenty of them in my neighborhood - just means 19 others have equally as good taste as me. It seems to me a company would want to get the most number of customers possible themselves, not by pushing the demand to other suppliers in the name of exclusivity. As I said, a car like the GT500 is simple in concept, and folks like us tend to like the simpler approach such as just kick ass and don't be overly fancy. This car is a collector car only in the sense that people want what it has. The original Shelbys are prized not because they are rare but because of how they perform. Yugos are pretty rare these days too. There are lots of examples. I think this project went astray some time ago because I'm not sure the suits (not the car guys) really understood the customer base. Not that it's a bad execution - heck, I may still buy one. But why in the world wouldn't they have polled existing SVT owners, especially multiple owners like me? The fact that I have the option to buy or not because of a purportedly guaranteed allocation - something many wish they now had - and I'm still not sure is, in my opinion, not a good sign. I'm only one person, but from reading here I'm not the Lone Ranger. Are you listening Ford? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepfordj Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Here is something else to consider; I took the dodge poll on the new challanger and one of the questions was "would you be willing to pay $3,000 more over a V-6 base for a 425 hp hemi?" That would suggest to me that they are considering that car with a hemi in at about $30,000 or so, making it very appealling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmav Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 I dont think youll see a challenger for 30,000 with a hemmi, maybe a mid level model but not a hemi. But to the point of this thread BRAVO! I have been a major fan of the re-designed mustang since they hit the streets, would have never considered one as a weekend toy before this new design though. Then the shelby concept blew me away, became a no-brainer that I would purchase one as soon as they were available, delayed my gratification by not purchasing a 2005 (A major feat for me by the way), now with everything going on I may not get the chance. I too could care less what the car is worth in 30 years, I dont want a collector car, I want a weekend toy, which quite frankly means I am willing to pay MSRP. To some of the other statements in this thread, I buy American at every opportunity with few exceptions. In the next year I will be purchasing a new Pickup and Family vehicle, I am not a Ford fanatic, have owned them along with everything else, but If I am locked out of the GT500 and buy a Challenger, I might as well purchase a Ram and Caravan as well. Thats just the reality of the situation and its big picture thinking. The GT500 is or should be the working class supercar. Obtainable and fast as he!!. Its also an anchor vehicle for people to keep coming back to the dealership, a point that I think is being missed entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Oh B Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 I absolutely love that Ford is listening to their customers. I've owned Mustangs since 1982 and have owned five of them (a pair of Mach 1's, a GT, a commuter LX Fox-body, and an '89 5.0L Sport). I didn't start working in the car biz until 1999 - long after owning Mustangs, TBirds, GTO's, Novas, and a Mopar. I went to work for Ford because I love their products. I am thrilled that I've had a chance to talk to Ford engineers and brand managers and give them my input on what I want in a Mustang. They've explained to me at length why they are restricted from doing some of the things that a lot of us think are "easy" and "obvious." But, more importantly, they've incorporated some of my desires into Mustangs as of late. Not because they did it for me, but because they heard lots of people asking for the same things I want. Thank you, Ford! Thank you for getting the Mustang GT back up on par with the Camaros of the late '90's and turn of the century. Thank for for continuing to build Mustangs long after all the competitors in the pony car market folded up shop. Thank you for building Cobras and then supercharging them at long last (who'd ever believed that would happen 10, 20, 30 years ago). Thank you for paying homage to Steve McQueen with the awesome handling 2001 Bullitt GT. Thank you for bringing my personal favorite Mustang icon back - Mach 1 - and giving it some serious bite to match its bark. Thank you for getting the FR500 Mustang goodies to market. Thank you for the performance packs available to 2005-6 Mustang GT owners. Thank you for dominating the Grand Am racing series with Mustangs so early last season. Thank you for working hard on delivering the legendary Shelby name to us again after 35+ years. Thank you, Ford, for listening. And thank you for moving up production of GT500's to this summer instead of next spring as originally communicated to us. And thank you for upping the power ante to 475 minimum instead of "just" 450 as originally planned. And thank you for considering a few thousand more GT500's for 2007 than originally planned so that more customers have access to what will likely be the zenith of Mustang performance for a very long time. Thank you, Ford. Thank for only making minor changes to the GT500 from Concept Car to Production Car. Thank you for offering more color and stripe combinations for the GT500 than any limited production Mustang has ever had. Thank you for putting up with minor complaints from those who don't understand how hard it is to bring a car like this to market. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutchGT500 Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Thank you, Ford. Thank for only making minor changes to the GT500 from Concept Car to Production Car. Thank you for offering more color and stripe combinations for the GT500 than any limited production Mustang has ever had. Thank you for putting up with minor complaints from those who don't understand how hard it is to bring a car like this to market. Thank you! Now anymore more loyal to the blue than that is not possible, Five Oh B. :rolleyes: But you are right in a way. When I visit the US on vacations the Mustang hobby gives me a lot of friends at Ford. I am always surprised how these enthusiastic people from Ford give us a warm welcome, because we come from far. It's not that I am the President of one of the biggest Mustang clubs in the Netherlands (1300 members), but because they are loyal to their brand and want to share the hobby. We get VIP credentials at Fun Ford Weekends, get jackets from SVT, Ford t-shirts for the kids. It is so much fun. Ford listens to their customers. At the end some things are not viable to do. It's business and they have to make profits and they still do worldwide thanks to Europe and Australia, but Ford USA is in big trouble. So they have to make choices. With the GT500 they did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted February 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Five Oh B - Yeah, brother, I agree with a lot of your thank yous. Is it ending or not is the question I am posing and attempting to answer with this thread. OBTW, I am glad you had the chance to provide feedback. Not sure how many others have. Nobody asked me despite multiple purchases - new cars for which they sent me the authenticity certificate. To my home address. Which hasn't changed but once since I bought my 93 Cobra. Ford has always sold far more 'hairdresser' (HD) versions of the Mustang than GTs, Cobras, Bullits, SCJs, whatever. The new cars were engineered, perhaps with performance in mind, but focused on churning out many more HD cars. I think they misread the market for the new car because it appears they did expect the sales of as many GTs proportionately as turned out to be the case. I know no one on this board would make the mistake of suggesting the production of too few V8 cars. My point is that it takes effort to adapt the car to the performance variants. And money. A good indicator of focus on the project is where the money is spent - engineering. Any money of the limited total spent on engineering the leather dash visor is money not spent on other real engineering things - performance. I don't oppose the Gucci, but how much there is says something. What have we really got? A GT with a bigger engine and six speed, bigger wheels and tires, bigger front brakes, some leather. Know what? That's the perfect description of what I got over a GT when I bought my 93. Ooops, forgot they de-aeroed some of the GT's phony scoops and stuff. Anyway, I didn't pay an inflation adjusted $12 - 15K extra MSRP back then. What justifies it now? So my point in this thread is: something appears off track compared to the past. The whole way this car has been developed and released (or has it been?) does not track. From some of the public statements, to the 'mystery', to the incomplete information even at the 'final unveiling' says to me something is not right internally. I mean, come on, how much real 'development time' went into a suspension whose geometry is virtually unchanged over the HD version? Sure they tested variations of spring rates, bushings, sway bars, but I'd bet they spent more time 'engineering' the Gucci stuff. It may already be too late, but maybe not. I think the signs are there, others may disagree. I'm optimistic that if enough folks are vocal enough, they will change things. The suits will always hold sway, make no mistake. It is our job to give the car guys enough ammo to prove to the suits there is enough money to be made to do it what we consider 'right'. Remember that the Probe was to be the Mustang at one point, and customer feedback turned that off it is said. Heck, I had a 90 Probe GT. It was a great car. I was actually expecting to buy the VW Corrado to replace my 81 Scirocco but liked the power the Probe had better. I traded the Probe in on the 93 Cobra. Keep it simple. The GT500 is not a Vette - thank God. I use my Cobra's trunk all the time. It has potential to be more in our hands. Why do all the stuff that keeps it in the hands of fewer folks? Like I keep saying, somethings not right - I hope we can fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Oh B Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Three Cobras, there are a lot of forces at work that conspire against automakers from making a car of the Shelby-magnitude. It's not a bean-counter versus carguy problem within Ford that is to blame, as you would make it out to be. There are a few key forces outside outside Ford that hurt (EPA and CAFE come to mind). Sure, long ago, most Mustangs came from the factory with V8's. I can remember buying a brand new 1989 5.0L LX and that particular year Ford built 55% of all Mustangs with V8's after having built a much smaller numbers of V8's following a succession of gas-crisis and CAFE ratings and greenies crying to save the Earth. But, 1989 was a high water mark and sales of 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder Mustangs crept back up as the demand for V8's waned again. With the last generation of Mustangs on the Fox-4 platform, we saw the demand for GT's at roughly 35% and V6's at 65%. Sometimes, demand would spike a bit for GT's (like when people couldn't get enough Bullitts in 2001 or Mach 1's in 2003-4 or afford the Cobra in 2003-4), but it was always short lived and back to the 35% for V8's long term. Part of that number is also driven by our own government, who strictly regulates CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. CAFE forces Ford to really watch Mustang production to be sure that a high enough percentage of V6's are built to keep their CAFE averages high enough. Mustang is a high volume car! Sure, it doesn't sell 300K+ units yearly like Accord or Camry, but Mustang averages about 150K units yearly and even hit 218K in 2000! That's a lot of any kind of car being sold and without the V6's the CAFE laws would have pummelled Ford with heavy fines. Along with CAFE, the need for Ford V8's in other models also conspires against Mustang. The 4.6L V8 can only be built in certain numbers at the engine plants that build them. Build more plants? Not in this day of overcapacity and layoffs. Explorer has had the 4.6L since 2002, and for 2006 now uses the Mustang's 3V version. F150, Econoline, Crown Vic also use the 4.6L and two of those are the best sellers in their class. All but the Crown Vic are great profit-generators for Ford (if not for the dealers), so allocating 4.6L's to Mustangs sometimes takes a back seat to the more profitable trucks and SUV's. Fast forward to the 2005 Mustang. Ford had fresh experience with a retro-style car (Thunderbird) and that car failed in the marketplace for a variety of reasons. With another retro-style car (Mustang) coming out Ford was rightfully cautious and conservative with production and sales expectations. Well, $#!+, the damn things sold like hotcakes and still are selling strong. Ford unfortunately moved Mustang production to a smaller (but higher quality) factory to start the new generation Mustang, so max production is 190K units per year. GT demand was so high, but fixed at 35%, that waiting lists for the V8 was months and months. Ford has been able to realign vendor contracts and assembly line time (and whatever else they gotta do) to ramp up V8 production to 55-60% now, with some weeks 100% for GT's. Holy crud, Ford is listening and building what consumers want, even at the expense of CAFE regulations and potential fines from the gov't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musclford Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 B)--> QUOTE(Five Oh B @ Feb 2 2006, 01:40 PM) 3238[/snapback] Three Cobras, there are a lot of forces at work that conspire against automakers from making a car of the Shelby-magnitude. It's not a bean-counter versus carguy problem within Ford that is to blame, as you would make it out to be. There are a few key forces outside outside Ford that hurt (EPA and CAFE come to mind). Sure, long ago, most Mustangs came from the factory with V8's. I can remember buying a brand new 1989 5.0L LX and that particular year Ford built 55% of all Mustangs with V8's after having built a much smaller numbers of V8's following a succession of gas-crisis and CAFE ratings and greenies crying to save the Earth. But, 1989 was a high water mark and sales of 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder Mustangs crept back up as the demand for V8's waned again. With the last generation of Mustangs on the Fox-4 platform, we saw the demand for GT's at roughly 35% and V6's at 65%. Sometimes, demand would spike a bit for GT's (like when people couldn't get enough Bullitts in 2001 or Mach 1's in 2003-4 or afford the Cobra in 2003-4), but it was always short lived and back to the 35% for V8's long term. Part of that number is also driven by our own government, who strictly regulates CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) ratings. CAFE forces Ford to really watch Mustang production to be sure that a high enough percentage of V6's are built to keep their CAFE averages high enough. Mustang is a high volume car! Sure, it doesn't sell 300K+ units yearly like Accord or Camry, but Mustang averages about 150K units yearly and even hit 218K in 2000! That's a lot of any kind of car being sold and without the V6's the CAFE laws would have pummelled Ford with heavy fines. Along with CAFE, the need for Ford V8's in other models also conspires against Mustang. The 4.6L V8 can only be built in certain numbers at the engine plants that build them. Build more plants? Not in this day of overcapacity and layoffs. Explorer has had the 4.6L since 2002, and for 2006 now uses the Mustang's 3V version. F150, Econoline, Crown Vic also use the 4.6L and two of those are the best sellers in their class. All but the Crown Vic are great profit-generators for Ford (if not for the dealers), so allocating 4.6L's to Mustangs sometimes takes a back seat to the more profitable trucks and SUV's. Fast forward to the 2005 Mustang. Ford had fresh experience with a retro-style car (Thunderbird) and that car failed in the marketplace for a variety of reasons. With another retro-style car (Mustang) coming out Ford was rightfully cautious and conservative with production and sales expectations. Well, $#!+, the damn things sold like hotcakes and still are selling strong. Ford unfortunately moved Mustang production to a smaller (but higher quality) factory to start the new generation Mustang, so max production is 190K units per year. GT demand was so high, but fixed at 35%, that waiting lists for the V8 was months and months. Ford has been able to realign vendor contracts and assembly line time (and whatever else they gotta do) to ramp up V8 production to 55-60% now, with some weeks 100% for GT's. Holy crud, Ford is listening and building what consumers want, even at the expense of CAFE regulations and potential fines from the gov't. "Ford had fresh experience with a retro-style car (Thunderbird) and that car failed in the marketplace for a variety of reasons." Exactly.. If they would have made a 300+ horse V8 - or V6, IMO it would have excelled, but if I had the money at the time, I would in no way buy a car like that (especially a 2 seater) that couldn't get out of it's own way. What were they thinking.. :blink: Hail Horsepower, if you can afford the car, you can afford the fuel.. Musclford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five Oh B Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 If they would have made a 300+ horse V8 - or V6 (Thunderbird), IMO it would have excelled, but if I had the money at the time, I would in no way buy a car like that (especially a 2 seater) that couldn't get out of it's own way. What were they thinking.. :blink: Musclford The 2003-5 Thunderbird had 280hp, a 5-speed automatic, and could run the 1/4 mile in the high 14's - exactly the same as any 1999-2004 Mustang GT Convertible with automatic. They could easily get out of their own way, and beat quite a few 2-seaters in its class. All priced in the mid to upper $30's, undercutting the competition by thousands of dollars. It wasn't lack of horsepower that killed the T-Bird, it was the lack of back seats! Ask any of us who've owned multiple T-Birds (I've owned 3 of them, by the way). I won't buy another T-Bird until it is a true 4 place 2-door V8/RWD performance coupe again. I can't tell you how many times I heard customers say they love the new T-Bird, but need back seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepfordj Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 People want back seats, just go out to e-bay and see the differance in price between a BMW M3 Roadster and a BMW M3 coupe. The 2 seat roadster goes for $12,000 to 15,000 less that the coupe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelmav Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Five O' Its not the V8 Mustang that gets them into trouble with the Govt over CAFE standards, its all the Trucks and SUV's they sell. The V6 Mustangs help them to balance that out as Truck and SUV sales are historically their best moneymakers (especially trucks). Also Five O I dont read where anyone is bashing Ford for continuing to make a mustang over the years, I have always had a thing for mustangs but usually fixed up Mavericks instead because they were easier to get and a little different. That said there is an awful lot of frustration out their over this car at the moment. Hey I think its great you have an ironclad contract and will get yours, wish we all had that foresight. As to the T-Bird, thought it was one of the coolest cars I had ever seen when it came out but the way it was priced was way out of my league at the time. Perhaps that was because of ADMU at the time but I can say this, I never looked at one again after that. I think Ford has done a tremendous amount of things right with both the new mustang and the Shelby variation. Being someone that wants something a lil extra special in my garage to have for many years to come I wouldnt be here otherwise. That said for the better part of a year the feedback Ford has gotten is that demand is going to be extremely high for this car and it doesnt seem that they are gearing up to meet that demand. I think those who think a 2008 are going to be available for x-plan are kidding themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portside Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Five Oh B - Yeah, brother, I agree with a lot of your thank yous. Is it ending or not is the question I am posing and attempting to answer with this thread. OBTW, I am glad you had the chance to provide feedback. Not sure how many others have. Nobody asked me despite multiple purchases - new cars for which they sent me the authenticity certificate. To my home address. Which hasn't changed but once since I bought my 93 Cobra. Ford has always sold far more 'hairdresser' (HD) versions of the Mustang than GTs, Cobras, Bullits, SCJs, whatever. The new cars were engineered, perhaps with performance in mind, but focused on churning out many more HD cars. I think they misread the market for the new car because it appears they did expect the sales of as many GTs proportionately as turned out to be the case. I know no one on this board would make the mistake of suggesting the production of too few V8 cars. My point is that it takes effort to adapt the car to the performance variants. And money. A good indicator of focus on the project is where the money is spent - engineering. Any money of the limited total spent on engineering the leather dash visor is money not spent on other real engineering things - performance. I don't oppose the Gucci, but how much there is says something. What have we really got? A GT with a bigger engine and six speed, bigger wheels and tires, bigger front brakes, some leather. Know what? That's the perfect description of what I got over a GT when I bought my 93. Ooops, forgot they de-aeroed some of the GT's phony scoops and stuff. Anyway, I didn't pay an inflation adjusted $12 - 15K extra MSRP back then. What justifies it now? So my point in this thread is: something appears off track compared to the past. The whole way this car has been developed and released (or has it been?) does not track. From some of the public statements, to the 'mystery', to the incomplete information even at the 'final unveiling' says to me something is not right internally. I mean, come on, how much real 'development time' went into a suspension whose geometry is virtually unchanged over the HD version? Sure they tested variations of spring rates, bushings, sway bars, but I'd bet they spent more time 'engineering' the Gucci stuff. It may already be too late, but maybe not. I think the signs are there, others may disagree. I'm optimistic that if enough folks are vocal enough, they will change things. The suits will always hold sway, make no mistake. It is our job to give the car guys enough ammo to prove to the suits there is enough money to be made to do it what we consider 'right'. Remember that the Probe was to be the Mustang at one point, and customer feedback turned that off it is said. Heck, I had a 90 Probe GT. It was a great car. I was actually expecting to buy the VW Corrado to replace my 81 Scirocco but liked the power the Probe had better. I traded the Probe in on the 93 Cobra. Keep it simple. The GT500 is not a Vette - thank God. I use my Cobra's trunk all the time. It has potential to be more in our hands. Why do all the stuff that keeps it in the hands of fewer folks? Like I keep saying, somethings not right - I hope we can fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portside Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 "I know no one on this board would make the mistake of suggesting the production of too few V8 cars". To suggest that everyone on this board would have gotten the production and allocation numbers correctly proportioned to the huge demend is optimistic at best. I seriously doubt anyone at Ford intentionally suggested the production of too few GT cars. The '05 Mustang is a huge success by any standard of measurement, and has brought back not only the Mustang, but the Challenger and Camaro as well. "Anyway, I didn't pay an inflation adjusted $12 - 15K extra MSRP back then. What justifies it now?" No offense intended here, but the '93 Cobra simply did not offer anything even approaching what the '07 Shelby offers. A supercharged 4 valve 5.4L 475 HP engine will make 700 RWHP a reality. Certainly better than a 235 HP GT-40 5.0L could possibly provide. I have no problem with a substantial premium over the basic GT with the huge potential of the S/C 5.4L forged engine. "A GT with a bigger engine and six speed, bigger wheels and tires, bigger front brakes, some leather." Lets see: A car that handles tons better, stops tons better, has a nicer interior, looks better, is easily distinguishable from the "Hairdresser" versions, and runs better than the base GT model could ever possibly hope to, with a much better engine and transmission. What ELSE is there to offer in a car? Then there's the Shelby name. As far as the Gucci reference, I have no problem seeing the "Gucci" upgrades from the hard plastic and vynil of the '05/'06. All of these things justify the premium in my opinion. To be able to purchase a legitimate SHELBY Mustang that is also the most powerful Mustang ever produced has gotten me excited about new cars like never before. I placed a down payment on a GT 500 in March 2005 right after the New York Auto Show. I also currently own a 2003 Cobra 10th Ann. Car. I did not expect Ford to consult with me on this new car, though I also own an '03 F250SD, and a '97 Ranger. However, if they had, I would have asked them to build (substantially) exactly what they are offering. Ford DID listen to the Mustang faithful. That is why they are offering the Uber-Mustang that we all want so badly. Once again, no offense intended, just my two cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy23c Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Right on, brother!!! Preachin' to the choir! I cannot wait to see this thing in person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCobra Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Right on, brother!!! Preachin' to the choir! I cannot wait to see this thing in person! I can not wait to see me in this thing!!!!!!! KingCobra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutchGT500 Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Good said, Portside. Der Ubermensch Mustang!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtbird91 Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Ford DID listen to the Mustang faithful. That is why they are offering the Uber-Mustang that we all want so badly. Once again, no offense intended, just my two cents worth. Especially the "we all want so badly "part! :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Cobras Posted February 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 Great discussion, and obviously a lot of views of it says the topic is interesting to many. I doubt anything will change in the short term, and I think there is a retrenchment going on away from enthusiast cars at Ford right now - that's my central point. I think from a dollars and cents perspective I have a lot of trouble seeing how this car is worth 40 large, even assuming you can get it at MSRP. For the sake of arguement, I side with those who say that it will be possible to do just that down the road. Before everyone gets wound up, let me be clear that the difference between what the car actually costs as indicated in MSRP or whatever sticker price the factory sets, and the price some are willing to pay is clearly the perceived value. Different folks draw the line at different price points. The car will not be rare by any stretch of the imagination, and it will lose value - dollars and cents value - the minute it gets driven off the dealer lot. If it gets broadsided and totalled at that instant (heaven forbid!), the insurance company will not pay you what you just paid for it unless you have some special coverage. Check me out on this, I could be wrong but I don't think so. In my opinion, the way to make our point is to continue to provide honest feedback, especially with regard to getting the absolute best bang for the buck. I believe the exclusivity deal is counterproductive to our interests as enthusiasts. Understandably, Ford wants as much traffic into the showrooms as possible. They built the GT to help that visibility among the enthusiasts. They certainly are thinking that with the GT500. If I do exercise my Powerlease option to get one in the first production batch as promised, the dealer I'm working with has already asked if I might be willing to leave it on the showroom floor for a little while. 'Nuff said. The concern I've expressed in this and other posts is that Ford needs to see the sustained value in doing things right by us. I don't think they are seeing that right now, not to the extent they should, anyway. It is not an all or nothing thing - I'm not saying they're ignoring us. I recognize others see it differently. But the GT500 is a done deal. Other stuff apparently has been cancelled that would have followed it, that supports what I'm saying. But I don't think going gaga over whatever they choose to produce is the way to get better. The way ahead for our interests is to get more than just Ford loyalists to salivate over future products. This makes good business sense. But it's hard for the beancounters to measure. And since it's just the GT500 now, and apparently a Boss soon, I wonder if that's enough to sustain the level needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy23c Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 I don't disagree with you one bit. They have to make cars that appeal to others and drive traffic into the showroom. A mass-produced Shelby would help to do that. Unfortunately, Ford seems to have "turtle-head syndrome". When things get slow, they withdraw and get all conservative, when I think that the opposite approach is needed. I guess we'll have to wait & see, but I think that the new Mustang & it's Special Editions are exactly what's needed to do that. They just have to make their other models more appealing (visually) as well. The only part where we see differently is value. I think that for $40 large, this is a good value. Not $43, $42, or $41. The car will begin to price itself out of maket incrementally. Just my .02 PS- I would really like to see a redesign of some of their sedans (read "Crown Vic") to make it more appealing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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