Stimulus Package

[JeffIsHereToo]

Here is the opinion of the Congressional Budget Office, a non-partisan oversight group.

 

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

 

 

Whoa! Isn't this the same CBO you guys were going nuts over a few weeks ago as a stooge of Obama and how they were going to cut veterans benefits? Now they are your best friend heh?

 

[JeffIsHereToo]

This is nothing more than political posturing so they can say"see I told you so" if it doesn't work out.

 

 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS! Rush told them too and the dying Republican party, like the loosing player in a poker game, is going all in!

[Guest markham51]

What did you say about spouting rhetoric again?

 

 

Well OK.....just trying to balance things out a little.

 

My point remains however, this whole argument is a lot of taking sides for the sake of taking sides in my opinion.

 

Everybody on one side is ALWAYS right and everybody on the other side is ALWAYS wrong. Just more BS politics as usual. When will these guys quit playing games and get on the "same side of the table" for once? I'm not pointing fingers here...it just pisses me off. Maybe Obama is naiive to think he can change things (be more bipartisan) when all the left and right can do is point fingers at each other while the country gets more screwed up and more screwed up... It's just frustrating to watch, I don't care what your leanings are. We all have a vested interest in the outcome of this mess and I dont see a whole lot of coming together when we need it most.

 

I just see more politics than economics in this debate, and I dont think one side is any better than the other to be honest with you. There is lots of game playing here and I dont trust anyone to be telling the truth. Nobody knows for certain the best course of action...but "IM SURE MINE IS THE RIGHT ONE AND HIS STINKS!" is a bunch of BS! Im tired of that same old message, aren't you?

[69dejavue]

It is not just politics but also ideology. There are those that are pushing a socialist agenda and those that are resisting. One of the outcomes of the stimulus package is establishing social programs that will be continually funded (i.e.: socialized health care) and other programs.

 

The absolute first thing any president must do upon being elected is to reward his base and ensure he is re-elected. The problem is the bases of the two parties are polarized. We do not want socialized medicine as they have in Canada and Europe. That is a failure. And many do not like to pay for failures.

 

It is capitalism, self-sustaining v socialism and the government will provide for my every need and want. Again, the bases are polarized.

[JeffIsHereToo]

It is not just politics but also ideology. There are those that are pushing a socialist agenda and those that are resisting. One of the outcomes of the stimulus package is establishing social programs that will be continually funded (i.e.: socialized health care) and other programs.

 

No one I know of is asking for "socialized" medicine simply the acknowledgement that our wacky employer based system (only one in the world) leaves millions uninsured or under insured and burdens US companies destroying their competitiveness and placing our jobs in jeopardy.

 

It's messed up that GM spends more on healthcare than steel, or Starbucks more than on coffee beans, how in a global economy can we compete with costs like that. With the boomers soon to retire something has to change. The vest interests in keeping the status quo will use words like socialized medicine etc., like flame-bait on the internet, it's meant to trigger a specific response and like Pavlov's dogs many go crazy without even thought as to the real issues we have right around the corner.

 

Mark my words, years from now, like the banking system, we're going to have a healthcare system crisis and people will look back on these employer based plans and patchwork government plans the way we today look back on creative mortgages.

[2007GT]

......leaves millions uninsured or under insured and burdens US companies destroying their competitiveness and placing our jobs in jeopardy.

 

Look at the data. A large percentage of the "uninsured" make over 50K per year. A large percentage of the "uninsured" have stated in polls that they do not WANT health insurance and CHOOSE not to have it. A large percentage of the "uninsured" are young and do not feel they need it. I make more than most doctors and I just canceled my health insurance. Why? It was costing me $750.00 per month and covered almost nothing. I'm self employed so this was coming out of my own pocket. Do I want "free" insurance from the government? No. Why? Because it would cost me more than the $750.00 per month and would cover even less.

 

 

The vest interests in keeping the status quo will use words like socialized medicine etc., like flame-bait on the internet, it's meant to trigger a specific response and like Pavlov's dogs many go crazy without even thought as to the real issues we have right around the corner.

 

No matter what you call it, when the government provides health care it is socialized medicine by definition.

[ilmor]

No matter what you call it, when the government provides health care it is socialized medicine by definition.

 

Very true; and the more they nationalize...well, let's just say that some are not heeding the lessons of history.

[JeffIsHereToo]

Look at the data. A large percentage of the "uninsured" make over 50K per year. A large percentage of the "uninsured" have stated in polls that they do not WANT health insurance and CHOOSE not to have it. A large percentage of the "uninsured" are young and do not feel they need it. I make more than most doctors and I just canceled my health insurance. Why? It was costing me $750.00 per month and covered almost nothing. I'm self employed so this was coming out of my own pocket. Do I want "free" insurance from the government? No. Why? Because it would cost me more than the $750.00 per month and would cover even less.

 

 

 

 

No matter what you call it, when the government provides health care it is socialized medicine by definition.

 

 

And it's people like YOU who get hurt or put off care that later fill emergency rooms and then leave the rest of us to pay the bill creating the higher premiums.

 

Thanks!

[JeffIsHereToo]

Very true; and the more they nationalize...well, let's just say that some are not heeding the lessons of history.

 

 

It's ok, some it seems don't heed basic math!

[2007GT]

And it's people like YOU who get hurt or put off care that later fill emergency rooms and then leave the rest of us to pay the bill creating the higher premiums.

 

Thanks!

 

It is rather insulting that you just assume that I would mooch off the government. I'm not a Democrat. If I get hurt and have to go to the emergency room I will pay the bill myself. In the case of a disease like cancer I'm firmly on the record as stating that I will pay for pain medications out of my own pocket but will refuse any other treatment. With most diseases they can not help you anyway and if you accept treatment you will just die broke. You are quite welcome.

[Boss Doctor]

And it's people like YOU who get hurt or put off care that later fill emergency rooms and then leave the rest of us to pay the bill creating the higher premiums.

 

Thanks!

 

You mean it's not the millions of illegals using the ER's around the country for free healthcare that aren't filling the emergency rooms and then leaving the rest of us to pay the bill?

 

BTW: Your "higher premiums" argument fails in direct relations because they are uninsured. Insurance companies don't pay for an uninsured patient, and they base compensation upon Usual & Customary charges for the area. If you claimed indirectly in your argument, then I would agree.

[JeffIsHereToo]

It is rather insulting that you just assume that I would mooch off the government. I'm not a Democrat. If I get hurt and have to go to the emergency room I will pay the bill myself. In the case of a disease like cancer I'm firmly on the record as stating that I will pay for pain medications out of my own pocket but will refuse any other treatment. With most diseases they can not help you anyway and if you accept treatment you will just die broke. You are quite welcome.

 

Who's talking about you? I said people "like you" and if you want to ignore the major reason why our healthcare costs are so high and why a follow member just was laid off from their hospital what can I say...I guess it's all about you!

[JeffIsHereToo]

You mean it's not the millions of illegals using the ER's around the country for free healthcare that aren't filling the emergency rooms and then leaving the rest of us to pay the bill?

 

BTW: Your "higher premiums" argument fails in direct relations because they are uninsured. Insurance companies don't pay for an uninsured patient, and they base compensation upon Usual & Customary charges for the area. If you claimed indirectly in your argument, then I would agree.

 

 

Hospitals don't get paid for these services.

 

They in turn try to negotiate rates with the insurance companies that cover these costs...still not coming close.

 

So people like Eddie G get laid off and we all pay more...no one wins except the insurance companies.

[Boss Doctor]

First: Who passed the law saying hospitals could not turn away uninsured patients..Republicans or Democrats?

 

Second: The insured help pay for the uninsured with deductibles and denied coverages: hence, the outrageously priced Tylenols and such.

 

Third: Insurance companies will always win. That's what we get when we mix healthcare with capitalism.

[2007GT]

Hospitals don't get paid for these services.

 

They in turn try to negotiate rates with the insurance companies that cover these costs...still not coming close.

 

So people like Eddie G get laid off and we all pay more...no one wins except the insurance companies.

 

You obviously do not adjust claims for a living. I do. The insurance companies are having their asses handed to them on a daily basis. There is an element of fraud in about 80% of claims (this has been studied and this number is real). Sometimes it's a homeowner over stating their damages and sometimes it's doctors and hospitals doing unnecessary testing or over billing. Nobody would even need insurance if doctors and hospitals got their pricing in line. The reason it's out of control is because they are billing the big bad insurance company with the deep pockets and not Joe citizen. Don't even get me started on professional liability premiums (malpractice insurance) and why those are so high.

[Boss Doctor]

You obviously do not adjust claims for a living. I do. The insurance companies are having their asses handed to them on a daily basis. There is an element of fraud in about 80% of claims (this has been studied and this number is real). Sometimes it's a homeowner over stating their damages and sometimes it's doctors and hospitals doing unnecessary testing or over billing. Nobody would even need insurance if doctors and hospitals got their pricing in line. The reason it's out of control is because they are billing the big bad insurance company with the deep pockets and not Joe citizen. Don't even get me started on professional liability premiums (malpractice insurance) and why those are so high.

 

I can state that none of my claims fell into the above, and I can also state that I have reported fraudlent claim practices of other doctors, and that the insurance companies did nothing about it. I can also state that I've had patients who worked for insurance companies such as Cigna who told me of some of the tactics they use to deny valid claims such as claiming they weren't received until they can deny the claim as un-timely.

[svttim]

No one I know of is asking for "socialized" medicine simply the acknowledgement that our wacky employer based system (only one in the world) leaves millions uninsured or under insured and burdens US companies destroying their competitiveness and placing our jobs in jeopardy.

 

It's messed up that GM spends more on healthcare than steel, or Starbucks more than on coffee beans, how in a global economy can we compete with costs like that. With the boomers soon to retire something has to change. The vest interests in keeping the status quo will use words like socialized medicine etc., like flame-bait on the internet, it's meant to trigger a specific response and like Pavlov's dogs many go crazy without even thought as to the real issues we have right around the corner.

 

Mark my words, years from now, like the banking system, we're going to have a healthcare system crisis and people will look back on these employer based plans and patchwork government plans the way we today look back on creative mortgages.

 

 

Ah, and Jeff my man, why did we start that system?

[FormerGmc]

The health care system is screwed up due to government involvement. The more they get involved, the worse it will get.

 

Just like everything the government involves itself in.

[ilmor]

The health care system is screwed up due to government involvement. The more they get involved, the worse it will get.

 

Just like everything the government involves itself in.

 

Yes, that - and an out of control litigious society, which is a result of people being led to and educated to believe that life should be risk-free, and that doctors and insurance companies, and the government, are completely responsible for their life, health and success, which will of course be further exacerbated by a nationalized, socialist health care plan.

[2007GT]

I can state that none of my claims fell into the above, and I can also state that I have reported fraudlent claim practices of other doctors, and that the insurance companies did nothing about it. I can also state that I've had patients who worked for insurance companies such as Cigna who told me of some of the tactics they use to deny valid claims such as claiming they weren't received until they can deny the claim as un-timely.

 

I wasn't saying that you did anything improper. I didn't even know that you were a doctor. In a lot of cases, the insurance companies don't do anything about fraud because they can't prove it or it is cheaper to just pay the claim. And yes, health insurance providers do some naughty stuff from time to time.

[2007GT]

Yes, that - and an out of control litigious society

 

One of the things I'm working on right now is series of e-books designed to train people to be independent claims adjusters. I'm presently working on the roof inspection and damage assessment manual. I have purposely omitted the section on how to safely climb the roof. Why would I do that you ask? Because if I include a section on roof safety, somebody will fall off a roof and sue me saying that the inclusion of the safety section "encouraged" them to climb the roof in the first place. This came from a lawyer so I took the advice.

[Boss Doctor]

I wasn't saying that you did anything improper. I didn't even know that you were a doctor. In a lot of cases, the insurance companies don't do anything about fraud because they can't prove it or it is cheaper to just pay the claim. And yes, health insurance providers do some naughty stuff from time to time.

 

I didn't take what you said as aimed at me. I was just clarifying the record. I'm not a big fan of insurance companies. I do know that some doctors feel robbed by insurance companies, (and I'd say rightfully so), and they feel they are justified in doing whatever to recoup their money. I refused to sink to that level.

[ilmor]

Speaking of the so-called stimulus package, there are certain provisions which relate specifically to health care. It is believed by many (including myself), that much in this bill are intended to set up a framework for Obama's plan for nationalized health care.

 

Some key points;

 

1. Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system after all of your medical records and data are collected by the federal government.

 

2. The Office of the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology will be established.

 

3. The National Coordinator of Health Information Technology will have a whole bureaucracy at his disposal that will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective.

 

4. "The goal [of the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology] is to reduce costs and 'guide' your doctor's decisions".

 

5. These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, 'Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis" - Yes, that Daschle.

 

6. Hospitals and doctors that are not 'meaningful users' of the new system will face penalties. 'Meaningful user' isn't defined in the bill.

 

7. Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

 

8. The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit.

 

Most of the above are excepts from the following Bloomberg article;

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aLzfDxfbwhzs

 

 

In other words, the Federal Government will essentially be telling your doctor whether or not your treatment is worthwhile based on your ages.

 

Think about the consequences and reality of this a draw your own conclusions. Meanwhile, I will pray that this section of the bill does not get passed.

 

Don't just take my word for it - Here are all the various current versions of the bill for those who want to read them in detail;

 

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.+1:

 

Advice: Save lots of money so you can afford your own treatments when you grow old!!

[69dejavue]

This is why subjects from Canada and Europe come to the US for medical treatment. Ask the people in Canada and Europe about socialist health care.

[69dejavue]

No one I know of is asking for "socialized" medicine simply the acknowledgement that our wacky employer based system (only one in the world) leaves millions uninsured or under insured and burdens US companies destroying their competitiveness and placing our jobs in jeopardy.

 

It's messed up that GM spends more on healthcare than steel, or Starbucks more than on coffee beans, how in a global economy can we compete with costs like that. With the boomers soon to retire something has to change. The vest interests in keeping the status quo will use words like socialized medicine etc., like flame-bait on the internet, it's meant to trigger a specific response and like Pavlov's dogs many go crazy without even thought as to the real issues we have right around the corner.

 

Mark my words, years from now, like the banking system, we're going to have a healthcare system crisis and people will look back on these employer based plans and patchwork government plans the way we today look back on creative mortgages.

 

Jeff, the problem is there is no free lunch. Somebody has to pay for medical insurance and treatments. Whether it be the individual, the owners of GM, or the owners of Starbucks. Then they pass the costs on to the consumer. It is a fallacy to think the government can or should pay for health care. The government has no money except what it collects from tax payers. That means everybody is paying for everybody else's health care insurance.

[JeffIsHereToo]

Jeff, the problem is there is no free lunch. Somebody has to pay for medical insurance and treatments. Whether it be the individual, the owners of GM, or the owners of Starbucks. Then they pass the costs on to the consumer. It is a fallacy to think the government can or should pay for health care. The government has no money except what it collects from tax payers. That means everybody is paying for everybody else's health care insurance.

 

The problem is it's going to happen! Just as the housing bubble burst as soon as these baby boomers start retiring in mass, already happening, we simply won't be able to do it any more. Add to that companies like GM washing their hands of retiree medical, more and more unemployed or employed with no insurance goes up, and soon this whole healthcare bubble will burst too!

 

My only point is since it WILL happen how can we preserve the great medical infrastructure we have and take of people without loosing our shirts in taxes or in high costs. In the end the costs are the costs their just buried and shifted between al the parties like some shell game each thinking they dodged a bullet when in reality it's just around the corner.

 

Hey, I for sure don't have the answer! There a lot of people smarter than me working on this for years and no one has found an answer but the day of reckoning I fear is coming and like the mortgage crisis people aren't listening because it's easier to just ignore the problem than deal with it.

 

We should have said years ago, "hey, you can't afford that house at that price!" get over it! Today we should be saying "hey, you can't afford that level or healthcare at that price"...but until it comes to a head those, like the banks and mortgage brokers of years past, will scare everyone into doing nothing while they make bank and run.

 

Once again we'll end up having to pick up the pieces I fear.

[BLOWN]

Cmon we are going to get one thousand dollars :happy feet: :happy feet: Thank you President Obama. Obama trust us with the money to get the economy going. I will do my duty when I get the check and I will spend every penny of it. Thank you Mr Obama you R the best EVER.

[brianspony]

Cmon we are going to get one thousand dollars :happy feet: :happy feet: Thank you President Obama. Obama trust us with the money to get the economy going. I will do my duty when I get the check and I will spend every penny of it. Thank you Mr Obama you R the best EVER.

 

 

What they need to do is give every tax paying American $25,000. That would give our economy a boost in the right direction. $1000 off our taxes next year and $895 Billion to the rich and famous isn't going to cut it.

[ilmor]

We should have said years ago, "hey, you can't afford that house at that price!" get over it! Today we should be saying "hey, you can't afford that level or healthcare at that price"...

 

Exactly!!!! But, at the same time, each of us, individually, should do what we can to help our fellow man; not have the government take from us and decide what to do with it.

[BLOWN]

check out this video.