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Damaged synchros on TSB services tend to be "Driver Error"


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Damaged synchros on TSB services tend to be "Driver Error" not "Thermal Damage" according to at least five different Ford Techs I have talked to across the country.

 

The TSB will replace the synchros if they are damaged either way. All the Ford techs state the damaged synchros they have seen is from the drivers attempting to "speed shift"

 

When my TSB was done everything was replaced except my synchros as they were not damaged at all. I went on my own hunt for answers by calling and talking to Ford techs around the country to make sure I was not being short changed.

 

After discussing this with numerous techs they all said the exact same thing. Now granted there have been synchros that were damaged by heat but most were damaged by the drivers. :banghead:

 

Discuss. :slapfight:

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Damaged synchros on TSB services tend to be "Driver Error" not "Thermal Damage" according to at least five different Ford Techs I have talked to across the country.

 

The TSB will replace the synchros if they are damaged either way. All the Ford techs state the damaged synchros they have seen is from the drivers attempting to "speed shift"

 

When my TSB was done everything was replaced except my synchros as they were not damaged at all. I went on my own hunt for answers by calling and talking to Ford techs around the country to make sure I was not being short changed.

 

After discussing this with numerous techs they all said the exact same thing. Now granted there have been synchros that were damaged by heat but most were damaged by the drivers. :banghead:

 

Discuss. :slapfight:

 

 

Sorry I'm not buying this 'theory' one bit . The fact is because of the heat build up in the OEM flywheel it caused the flywheel to "grow" thus the clearence between it and the clutch is reduced preventing the clutch from fully disengaging. This usually happened the most from excessive stop and go driving. Once this happens everytime a shift is made the synchro's have to endure more abuse than normal. This has nothing to do with speed shifting, if anything it will happen more to a car that's driven in a lot of stop and go traffic.

Once this "clearence has been reduced then it will make it impossible to make a quick shift without doing further damage to the synchros.

 

This is why they have changed the design of the flywheel and the material it is made of and will be changing the material in the clutch in the 2010's.

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Sorry I'm not buying this 'theory' one bit . The fact is because of the heat build up in the OEM flywheel it caused the flywheel to "grow" thus the clearence between it and the clutch is reduced preventing the clutch from fully disengaging. This usually happened the most from excessive stop and go driving. Once this happens everytime a shift is made the synchro's have to endure more abuse than normal. This has nothing to do with speed shifting, if anything it will happen more to a car that's driven in a lot of stop and go traffic.

Once this "clearence has been reduced then it will make it impossible to make a quick shift without doing further damage to the synchros.

 

This is why they have changed the design of the flywheel and the material it is made of and will be changing the material in the clutch in the 2010's.

 

Here is an actual quote I found in a total unrelated forum I belong to when looking for information:

 

I'm sorry to say that I am a tech at a Ford dealer and have done the TSB for the

Clutch and rebuild the Tremec 6 speed trans on the GT500.

 

It was a complete pain in the ass and only paid IIRC about 6.5 to 6.9 hrs to do.

 

Some lady bought on and it only had about 1800 miles on it.

 

Not even to the first oil change. She smoked the clutch because she didnt know how to drive it. That clutch is not made to slip it IS a race clutch you have to almost dump it to

drive it. It has a dual disc setup. The syncros get worn beacuse people do not fully push on

the pedal to relese it all the way before speed shifting into the next gear.

 

There are not too many of these on the road and I hope to not have to do another one again.

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Here is an actual quote I found in a total unrelated forum I belong to when looking for information:

 

I'm sorry to say that I am a tech at a Ford dealer and have done the TSB for the

Clutch and rebuild the Tremec 6 speed trans on the GT500.

 

It was a complete pain in the ass and only paid IIRC about 6.5 to 6.9 hrs to do.

 

Some lady bought on and it only had about 1800 miles on it.

 

Not even to the first oil change. She smoked the clutch because she didnt know how to drive it. That clutch is not made to slip it IS a race clutch you have to almost dump it to

drive it. It has a dual disc setup. The syncros get worn beacuse people do not fully push on

the pedal to relese it all the way before speed shifting into the next gear.

 

There are not too many of these on the road and I hope to not have to do another one again.

 

He obviously doesn't know why they redesigned the flywheel then. Like I said it is worse for those who drive in traffic. He is correct in saying it is more of a hi performance clutch but you certainly don't have to "dump it" to drive it correctly. How do you dump a clutch while in traffic ?

The clutch that is coming in the 2010 GT500 is a different compound just for this reason. It won't be able to handle as much torque as the 07-09's but it will be better suited for everyday driving .

Bottom line is it's not driver error it is a design issue.

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Bottom line is it's not driver error it is a design issue.

 

 

BINGO - thus the TSB. If it were a driver error on all these cars they would not cover it. It would also be off that so many buying a stick shift for this $ can't drive stick. I'm still holding my breath on no issues with an original stock clutch and tranny and almost 12K miles on a Dec. 06 build date.

 

If the time comes that I have to have work done I expect them to cover it (and fight me on it due to mods) because it is a known issue with the hardware..not the driver.

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I've never speed shifted my car in 6k and it's the devil to get into second. Most of the time there's this deep metallic "schrunch" as 2nd engages. When it's cold, it's even worse. I've been waiting "at the top of the list" at my dealer for TSB parts since September......geez, I wonder what list he HAS me on.....

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He obviously doesn't know why they redesigned the flywheel then. Like I said it is worse for those who drive in traffic. He is correct in saying it is more of a hi performance clutch but you certainly don't have to "dump it" to drive it correctly. How do you dump a clutch while in traffic ?

The clutch that is coming in the 2010 GT500 is a different compound just for this reason. It won't be able to handle as much torque as the 07-09's but it will be better suited for everyday driving .

Bottom line is it's not driver error it is a design issue.

 

We were discussing synchros. The flywheel, inputshaft and clutch damage are not "Driver Error" it is a design issue. We were discussing damaged synchros only.

 

 

 

I had 14,400 miles on my 07 when the TSB was done the synchros were totally fine. Most of my mileage was city driving as I live in a metropolitan area.

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I've never speed shifted my car in 6k and it's the devil to get into second. Most of the time there's this deep metallic "schrunch" as 2nd engages. When it's cold, it's even worse. I've been waiting "at the top of the list" at my dealer for TSB parts since September......geez, I wonder what list he HAS me on.....

Time to call the dealer back. I was diagnosed in October and within 3 weeks they had all the parts and performed the TSB.

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We were discussing synchros. The flywheel, inputshaft and clutch damage are not "Driver Error" it is a design issue. We were discussing damaged synchros only.

 

 

 

I had 14,400 miles on my 07 when the TSB was done the synchros were totally fine. Most of my mileage was city driving as I live in a metropolitan area.

Just curious ...why did you have the TSB done then ?

If a clutch isn't working correctly don't you think it will have an adverse affect on the synchros ? ....answer...of course it will because any clutch slippage during shifting will cause the transmission to keep spinning instead of fully disengageing thus causing a bump against the synchros which will eventuall cause them to fail.

This is only made worse if the car is driven the way it was built for and no I'm not talking about power shifting just aggressively . Thats why they are including the synchros in the TSB.

 

Could it be made worse by a driver who doesn't know how to drive a stick properly ?... of course but that's not the reason there are all these problems nor is it the reason for a TSB that includes replacing the (1) clutch, (2) flywheel,(3)pilot bearing,and yes (4) synchros.

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Just curious ...why did you have the TSB done then ?

If a clutch isn't working correctly don't you think it will have an adverse affect on the synchros ? ....answer...of course it will because any clutch slippage during shifting will cause the transmission to keep spinning instead of fully disengageing thus causing a bump against the synchros which will eventuall cause them to fail.

This is only made worse if the car is driven the way it was built for and no I'm not talking about power shifting just aggressively . Thats why they are including the synchros in the TSB.

 

Could it be made worse by a driver who doesn't know how to drive a stick properly ?... of course but that's not the reason there are all these problems nor is it the reason for a TSB that includes replacing the (1) clutch, (2) flywheel,(3)pilot bearing,and yes (4) synchros.

 

I agree. I can't image the TSB would be needed, unless damage had occured to the synchros. If the synchros are good, than so must be everything else, unless it was catastophic, good one second, and can't shift the next. That way no time to damage the synchros. Otherwise, difficult shifting...is damaged synchro's, correct???

 

Service people always assume, due to years of conditioning, that there is nothing wrong, design, materials, etc... with the products that they are servicing. They ae conditioned to look for "what is this owner doing, that is damaging this car". In some cases, I am conviced that they are trained to outright lie. The system in place, doesn't really allow the dealer to even get data back to Ford on design issues, etc... Most dealers don't want to dig into the problems, because that cost $$$. They want to swap parts, because they get paid for that.

 

I had two Grand Cherokee's and both warped rotors within the first 15,000 miles. Each time, I was blamed for agressive driving. Yet, whenever I ask somebody at a gas pump with a Grand Cherokee, if there brakes pulsate, EVERYONE would tell me yes. So... obviously they had brake issues, yet every service writer and tech told me it was my fault. They knew that everyone was doing it, yet stood their and straight face lied to each and every customer with the same condition. No more Chromoco for me! Funny that the replacement Lexus RX has never warped a rotor, in 90K of driving. Same drivers....

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He obviously doesn't know why they redesigned the flywheel then. Like I said it is worse for those who drive in traffic. He is correct in saying it is more of a hi performance clutch but you certainly don't have to "dump it" to drive it correctly. How do you dump a clutch while in traffic ?

The clutch that is coming in the 2010 GT500 is a different compound just for this reason. It won't be able to handle as much torque as the 07-09's but it will be better suited for everyday driving .

Bottom line is it's not driver error it is a design issue.

 

Well said and dead on !

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Damaged synchros on TSB services tend to be "Driver Error" not "Thermal Damage" according to at least five different Ford Techs I have talked to across the country.

 

The TSB will replace the synchros if they are damaged either way. All the Ford techs state the damaged synchros they have seen is from the drivers attempting to "speed shift"

 

When my TSB was done everything was replaced except my synchros as they were not damaged at all. I went on my own hunt for answers by calling and talking to Ford techs around the country to make sure I was not being short changed.

 

After discussing this with numerous techs they all said the exact same thing. Now granted there have been synchros that were damaged by heat but most were damaged by the drivers. :banghead:

 

Discuss. :slapfight:

 

 

I have driven mine correctly, also, since July 2006. No issues. I drive it at least once a week, but have only 6k or so miles on it. We shall see. We shall see. :superhero:

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I know an engineer at Ford and he told me it was a clutch dragging problem. The flywheel was the main culprit. However there was also a problem with the clearance/finish on the input shaft having a tendency to keep a disk up against the flywheel/pressure plate thereby dragging and over working the synchros. When the decision was made to replace the flywheel, clutch and input shaft it was decided to replace all the synchros for two reasons. First some-usually second and/or third gear-synchors were mostly affected and worn and secondly they were in there anyway and the synchro assemblies are cheap (compared to the overall cost of the job) and could be pretty easily damaged in the remove and replace process. So in spite of what some of you might think Ford did really try to do this right and fix the cars correctly. (They said they did not know of this issue when the cars were first sold because they tested them alot on the track and not so much day to day stop and go driving. I find that a bit of a stretch considering how quickly the problem showed up for so many of us when so many of us have been gearheads since we were 12 and know how to drive a stick. Whether the car should have ever been fielded with this issue is another matter for discussion.)

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I agree. I can't image the TSB would be needed, unless damage had occured to the synchros. If the synchros are good, than so must be everything else, unless it was catastophic, good one second, and can't shift the next. That way no time to damage the synchros. Otherwise, difficult shifting...is damaged synchro's, correct???

 

I actually looked at the syncros because I thought I was getting BS'd and they had a GT500 with damaged synchros and mine which were fine. Everything else had been damaged as per TSB and my clutch would slip so bad my vehicle was just about undrivable when I got there.

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BINGO - thus the TSB. If it were a driver error on all these cars they would not cover it. It would also be off that so many buying a stick shift for this $ can't drive stick. I'm still holding my breath on no issues with an original stock clutch and tranny and almost 12K miles on a Dec. 06 build date.

 

If the time comes that I have to have work done I expect them to cover it (and fight me on it due to mods) because it is a known issue with the hardware..not the driver.

I too am holding my breath on an Oct 06 build date--no issues yet. . .

CC

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Damaged synchros on TSB services tend to be "Driver Error" not "Thermal Damage" according to at least five different Ford Techs I have talked to across the country.

 

The TSB will replace the synchros if they are damaged either way. All the Ford techs state the damaged synchros they have seen is from the drivers attempting to "speed shift"

 

When my TSB was done everything was replaced except my synchros as they were not damaged at all. I went on my own hunt for answers by calling and talking to Ford techs around the country to make sure I was not being short changed.

 

After discussing this with numerous techs they all said the exact same thing. Now granted there have been synchros that were damaged by heat but most were damaged by the drivers. :banghead:

 

Discuss. :slapfight:

Excessive heat build up leads to the nodular flywheel warping that causes early clutch wear.

 

The dragging or hanging up of the clutch disk assembly is caused by to close of tolerances between the input shaft and the clutch hub on the early transmissions as well as the transmission input shat not being lubed during assembly on the 07 and some 08 models, the dragging of these disks assemblies or incomplete clutch disengagement is what caused damage to allot of early GT500 transmission synchronize rs.

Of course the speed shifting by some owners caused the damage too.

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So in spite of what some of you might think Ford did really try to do this right and fix the cars correctly.

 

Except that they will only fix the cars that have obvious signs of the problem. Mine shifts fine, so they won't fix it. Once in a while I get synchro bump going one-two. To do this fix correctly, I would say they should fix them all....

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Except that they will only fix the cars that have obvious signs of the problem. Mine shifts fine, so they won't fix it. Once in a while I get synchro bump going one-two. To do this fix correctly, I would say they should fix them all....

 

"I would say they should fix them all...." You are correct. The early cars that didn't get the lube are pretty much guaranteed to fail, not a matter of "if" just a matter of time, especially if you take it easy or let the car sit.

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BINGO - thus the TSB. If it were a driver error on all these cars they would not cover it. It would also be off that so many buying a stick shift for this $ can't drive stick. I'm still holding my breath on no issues with an original stock clutch and tranny and almost 12K miles on a Dec. 06 build date.

 

If the time comes that I have to have work done I expect them to cover it (and fight me on it due to mods) because it is a known issue with the hardware..not the driver.

 

My take on this is if the Flyweel/Clutch is failing in just "Stop&Go" traffic it would make no

differance with a 500/hp or 300/hp Engine......A design flaw that would fail in both cases???????????

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My take on this is if the Flyweel/Clutch is failing in just "Stop&Go" traffic it would make no

differance with a 500/hp or 300/hp Engine......A design flaw that would fail in both cases???????????

 

I think some people are missing the point of this thread.

 

Yes the TSB is a design flaw and should be covered by Ford as it does cause premature clutch malfunction.

 

This thread was started because most of the "Synchros" being repaired were damaged by the driver not heat.

 

The entire point is Synchros not arguing the Flywheel design flaw which it is.

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Just to clarify something and risking being too much of an engineer geek............When something is made the designer considers two concepts that are not the same. Tolerance and clearance. Whenever a dimension is specified on a drawing it is given a plus and minus tolerance. That is how much the engineer will tollerate the part in the real world to be not the same as what he calls out on the drawing. An example would be 5.000+.005-.003. That means the part is supposed to be 5.000 inches long and it is acceptable for it to actually be up to 5.005 long or as little as 4.997 inches long. The clearance is specified as a nominal clearance. That means if a part 5 inches long and it is supposed to fit into another part the specified size of the other part would be specified say 5.010 inches long. The clearance is .010. The part the engineer gets paid for is to make sure the biggest part made to the max size allowed in the tolerance still fits into its mating part that on that given Sunday was made at the min allowable size per the tolerance........ More than you wanted to know but next time you think the engineer was a moron realize he had a whole lot to consider that doesn't even register on our radar screens...........

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I think some people are missing the point of this thread.

 

Yes the TSB is a design flaw and should be covered by Ford as it does cause premature clutch malfunction.

 

This thread was started because most of the "Synchros" being repaired were damaged by the driver not heat.

 

The entire point is Synchros not arguing the Flywheel design flaw which it is.

All due respect but I think you are missing the point about what affect a defective partially disengaging clutch will have on synchros....and it's not heat it's simply excessive and unnecessary wear that would not have occurred with a superior designed clutch that does fully disengage normally.

 

I will agree that the problem would be exasperated by driver abuse. I'm also very glad that the good folks at SVT have worked very hard to resolve this problem and have finally come up with a solution for all the 07-09's ....and also a new clutch composite that will be implemented on all the 2010's and newer.

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I think some people are missing the point of this thread.

 

Yes the TSB is a design flaw and should be covered by Ford as it does cause premature clutch malfunction.

 

This thread was started because most of the "Synchros" being repaired were damaged by the driver not heat.

 

The entire point is Synchros not arguing the Flywheel design flaw which it is.

I'm going to have to agree with svtbird91 and the others on this one.

 

I think you are the one missing the point.

 

If a clutch is not functioning properly it is most probable that it will cause damage to the synchros. This is a complete separate issue from the existence of driver abuse or not.

 

I believe that many of the early cars were damaged by the shipping companies slipping the clutches excessively while loading and unloading on rail cars and car haulers; thus the very low mileage failures that were reported. Flywheels were warped before delivery was ever taken and the clutches were already not disengaging fully. And when the clutches got bad enough, synchros got damaged; not driver's fault.

 

Your technician is simply wrong on this count.

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I don't doubt you heard what you did. You simply need to consider new sources.

 

Not being one to mince words - this is just horse shit. I put up pics of my burnt and caramelized synchros - where reverse was the worst. Can't remember power shifting into reverse. As a matter of fact - I never power shifted at all. The synchros were working overtime due to the clutch hanging up on the input shaft and not disengaging. The synchros were spinning wildly trying to keep up so you won't grind gears. That's the fact, Jack.

 

I'm guessing the same results could be had by power shifting. Though we as a community are not power shifting to the extent that we have the problems that are described and resolved by the TSB.

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So does the lastest TSB call for Ford replacing all the syncros or just whichever ones they fill are damaged?

 

Has it been stated whether this TSB will be completed and covered under only your 3/36 or 5/50

 

That is very important but not one person anywhere seems to know

 

WTF

 

I stated in the other thread it is covered under your 3/36 and if you got ESP it is covered as well. I had 14,400 miles on my car when the TSB was done. A few dealers did tell me to get bent but Santa Clara Frontier Ford did the TSB for me.

 

They offered me new syncros and the tech said it would be a bad idea to change them since they were intact. After I saw them with my own eyes I agreed and am happy with my TSB work.

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