Firming up some next generation rumours...

[JETSOLVER]

Road and Track forums/Saleen spills some news for all Musclecar fans...

[kb67]

Thanks for the post thats pretty interesting on 2 fronts,

 

1. Seems like Ford plans for the GT500 in 2009 that and the post about more shelby models coming along may change the landscape alittle bit for some of us. If they are anything like we hope they are maybe Ford might be serious about making a move with the Mustang.

 

2. Saleen is branching out to be involved with GM on the Camaro, that is interesting in part because far as I know Saleen is the longest running partner Ford has had behind Shelby in the modified mustangs arena.

Might point to Saleen seeing the writing on the wall with Fords return to a Shelby American partnership. He seems to be trying to leverage a position so either way hes got a hand in the pie.

[svtbird91]

Thanks for the post thats pretty interesting on 2 fronts,

 

1. Seems like Ford plans for the GT500 in 2009 that and the post about more shelby models coming along may change the landscape alittle bit for some of us. If they are anything like we hope they are maybe Ford might be serious about making a move with the Mustang.

 

2. Saleen is branching out to be involved with GM on the Camaro, that is interesting in part because far as I know Saleen is the longest running partner Ford has had behind Shelby in the modified mustangs arena.

Might point to Saleen seeing the writing on the wall with Fords return to a Shelby American partnership. He seems to be trying to leverage a position so either way hes got a hand in the pie.

 

 

 

I agree, and with all the new Mustang models comming (ie: Bullitt, Boss , Shelbys ect. it will be too many Mustangs in competition with Saleen esp at the prices they charge for Saleens.

This is good news for the bow tie crowd....

 

It only means that Ford & Shelby will have to step it up to stay ahead of the comp.

 

It's a win win for all the car /performance enthusiasts on both sides.

[Joker45]

Cool info. I doubt that Chevy will put out a 450 HP Camero for under 30 grand like that one guy was saying. 350 HP out of a stock GT would be nice though. Add another 15 or so HP for a stock GT 500 and that's not too bad.

[68fastback]

The days of loyalty are all but gone. Saleen has to diversify and do the pre-paving for those who have to have more before the manufacturers step up to the next level, IMO.

 

No slap intended against SA, but Saleen is an engineering tour-de-force by comparo -- an amazing guy. Still, I'd like to see the Shelby folks step it up -- soon ;-)

 

6.2 LSx 450HP in '09 sounds about right -- that's why I find it hard to believe Ford will wait 'till MY'12 for the Boss 6.2 big block -- too little to late -- I'm still lookin' for '09; 'rules of strategy' say the rest is smoke and deception ;-)

 

At this point, realize that GM has to do all the hyping (hold market) and Ford (incumbent) has to be more quiet/stealth (surprise attack), IMHO. Admittedly, just the opposite of what one might expect.

 

Not that there isn't 450 NA HP in the 5.4mod, just that emissions at that output would force low volumes on a rabid-demand car or involve some major new development = disadvantaged position, hence 6.2Boss -- it's the anniverasry year! ;-)

 

Of course, Ford could think an extended run on the GT500 will hold the fort, but not at it's price points. No, Ford has stuff up their sleeve they're not showing -- anything less would be segment abondonment... unlikely for a car actually making money (and that ain't from the V6 which they're force-feeding dealers to get GT allocation <lol>).

 

.

[kraegar]

and that ain't from the V6 which they're force-feeding dealers to get GT allocation

 

Hey now, some of us poor folk drive the V6 and still get a lot of enjoyment out of it!

 

 

- Tony

[JETSOLVER]

The days of loyalty are all but gone.

 

6.2 LSx 450HP in '09 sounds about right -- that's why I find it hard to believe Ford will wait 'till MY'12 for the Boss 6.2 big block -- too little to late -- I'm still lookin' for '09; 'rules of strategy' say the rest is smoke and deception

 

Of course, Ford could think an extended run on the GT500 will hold the fort, but not at it's price points. No, Ford has stuff up their sleeve they're not showing -- anything less would be segment abondonment... unlikely for a car actually making money.

 

 

The last year has caused me to rethink a very dedicated loyalty to Ford. And I suspect that not a few others as well are wondering if Ford has the corporate will to pull the drapes aside and keep me as a near-term customer.(I need to commit to a new high-performance car for no later than early summer 07 at or near $50k)

Just today, I heard Jim Queen ( insert lame comment about the name), the head of Global product for GM say that GM is about to rethink integrity from a performance standpoint. He described it as "real significant sessions inside the company with regard to the SS portfolio". And he singled out the sticker and tape Malibu "SS" sort of product as a definate no go. Dan, I know that you know that GM has a pretty potent past history in powertrains. Some folks around here(mostly those that have their cars) are inclined to put the blinders on re. GM and D/C(let alone other manufacturers), but the fact is that right now, Ford is doing nothing that the others can not or have not done. I don't hold out much hope for getting a GT500 for that money in a timely fashion, so I am actively seeking options. And contrary to some folks belief's, there is a some good stuff out there, and more to come.

So, I need to hear something concrete from Ford by the end of the Detroit show, something to make me commit again to a company that has gone quite a ways to disappoint me this last 18 months. H.T.T.(the aftermarket types like Shelby,Roush,and others will not do it for me) had better be front and center(recall he is the head of product creation and the custodian of the SVT legacy) in the next 10-12 weeks, or I have to spend my $ elsewhere.

[68fastback]

The last year has caused me to rethink a very dedicated loyalty to Ford. And I suspect that not a few others as well are wondering if Ford has the corporate will to pull the drapes aside and keep me as a near-term customer.(I need to commit to a new high-performance car for no later than early summer 07 at or near $50k)

Just today, I heard Jim Queen ( insert lame comment about the name), the head of Global product for GM say that GM is about to rethink integrity from a performance standpoint. He described it as "real significant sessions inside the company with regard to the SS portfolio". And he singled out the sticker and tape Malibu "SS" sort of product as a definate no go. Dan, I know that you know that GM has a pretty potent past history in powertrains. Some folks around here(mostly those that have their cars) are inclined to put the blinders on re. GM and D/C(let alone other manufacturers), but the fact is that right now, Ford is doing nothing that the others can not or have not done. I don't hold out much hope for getting a GT500 for that money in a timely fashion, so I am actively seeking options. And contrary to some folks belief's, there is a some good stuff out there, and more to come.

So, I need to hear something concrete from Ford by the end of the Detroit show, something to make me commit again to a company that has gone quite a ways to disappoint me this last 18 months. H.T.T.(the aftermarket types like Shelby,Roush,and others will not do it for me) had better be front and center(recall he is the head of product creation and the custodian of the SVT legacy) in the next 10-12 weeks, or I have to spend my $ elsewhere.

 

 

I hear you, Rob, and I certainly respect that.

 

I think GM's comments on tape and stickers were targeted specifically at SA... very clever, I think.

 

I've heard SA will have information on some meatier offering(s) to announce in the VERY NEAR future but I have no idea whether it's GT500 mods/variant or a new offering or ???, but I too require it be a Ford "native" offering to get my money -- SA qualifies to my mind as long as available directly thru Ford, but I agree Roush/Saleen does not, at least not for me either.

 

Just curious why you're so intent on buying in the next 2-3 months... I sure wish there was some way to convey to Ford some of our core/gut feelings. Does HTT appreciate that this is a very serious game -- one that carrying the credibility of all of FMC with the folks who carry the brand more than anyone else? I actually think he personally does and I think Dan Davis does and I'm sure there are others -- just have no clue or windage on whether the broader management team appreciate how powerfull the faithfull's stake is in their product.

 

I'm still letting out rope on HTT's rep, but he sure needs to be more than a one-trick pony -- he needs to be John Coletti (prefereably on steroids ;-) in his pushing of the management team. Put another way, if he hasn't already bet his job on the next true muscle mustang rollout, he not doing enough, IMHO. Not that the focus at Ford isn't rightfully more broadly spread right now, but HTT should have enough cred by now to set his own measurement plan -- one not measured on max revenue, but rather on max long-term credibility. No one needs another Jacque Nasser approach to short-sightedness. I'm sure HTT would agree with that, but does the management team realize that stickers and tape offerings IS milking the cow if the real-goods are absent... and the real-goods has to be ongoing, ever-improved and excellent every time -- no exceptions. The legacy of Bunky Knudson, John Coletti and so many others demands it, but, more importantly, the faithful demand it. Damage that mutual respect and swings the other way very rapidly.

 

Don;t know if that's some of what you're fighting in your gut, but it's the reason I mentally abandoned cars as my 'religion' from '74 'till the '90s. I bleed Ford Blue, but there was nothing better than "embarassing BS" (to my mind) for those years. It's the Cobras in the '90s and later that resurrected the Ford brand with enthusiasts, and Coletti's rollout of innovation is to be commended. Does FMC management realize that that need is 10x greater now than it was then? Dunno...

 

Sorry for the rambling... when a subject hits your gut it's hard to organize thoughts neatly ;-) Still faithful here, but if HTT fails my expectations over the next few years, faith will eventually turn to wrath... an ugly future for FMC if that happens to the faithful, regardless of the broader, mainstream products success -- I just hope they realize how important this is. I know they used to. I sure would like some new HTT (or higher up) words that clearly sets that stake ;-)

[kb67]

I humbly believe if Ford stays with the easy way out here and just keeps things as they are they are going to be facing a really bad outcome. They have basically hitched up to SA and told them to pull the wagon Saleen I believe isn't exactly thrilled with that he was the go to guy a long time. I won't even state anything about prices because I think its kinda obvious whats likely to happen there. I hope whatever is brought forward will be a great addition to the lineup and offer something cool for me to want to drive. Also as Jetsolver has mentioned previously if alot of people get tired of the GT500 and trade in for the new stuff coming especially if its done at SA their might be some GT500s sitting around so you may go from having to few out there to a boatload might get interesting soon.

[428scjdragpac]

The last year has caused me to rethink a very dedicated loyalty to Ford. And I suspect that not a few others as well are wondering if Ford has the corporate will to pull the drapes aside and keep me as a near-term customer.(I need to commit to a new high-performance car for no later than early summer 07 at or near $50k)

Just today, I heard Jim Queen ( insert lame comment about the name), the head of Global product for GM say that GM is about to rethink integrity from a performance standpoint. He described it as "real significant sessions inside the company with regard to the SS portfolio". And he singled out the sticker and tape Malibu "SS" sort of product as a definate no go. Dan, I know that you know that GM has a pretty potent past history in powertrains. Some folks around here(mostly those that have their cars) are inclined to put the blinders on re. GM and D/C(let alone other manufacturers), but the fact is that right now, Ford is doing nothing that the others can not or have not done. I don't hold out much hope for getting a GT500 for that money in a timely fashion, so I am actively seeking options. And contrary to some folks belief's, there is a some good stuff out there, and more to come.

So, I need to hear something concrete from Ford by the end of the Detroit show, something to make me commit again to a company that has gone quite a ways to disappoint me this last 18 months. H.T.T.(the aftermarket types like Shelby,Roush,and others will not do it for me) had better be front and center(recall he is the head of product creation and the custodian of the SVT legacy) in the next 10-12 weeks, or I have to spend my $ elsewhere.

 

[futureGT500owner]

The last year has caused me to rethink a very dedicated loyalty to Ford. And I suspect that not a few others as well are wondering if Ford has the corporate will to pull the drapes aside and keep me as a near-term customer.(I need to commit to a new high-performance car for no later than early summer 07 at or near $50k)

Just today, I heard Jim Queen ( insert lame comment about the name), the head of Global product for GM say that GM is about to rethink integrity from a performance standpoint. He described it as "real significant sessions inside the company with regard to the SS portfolio". And he singled out the sticker and tape Malibu "SS" sort of product as a definate no go. Dan, I know that you know that GM has a pretty potent past history in powertrains. Some folks around here(mostly those that have their cars) are inclined to put the blinders on re. GM and D/C(let alone other manufacturers), but the fact is that right now, Ford is doing nothing that the others can not or have not done. I don't hold out much hope for getting a GT500 for that money in a timely fashion, so I am actively seeking options. And contrary to some folks belief's, there is a some good stuff out there, and more to come.

So, I need to hear something concrete from Ford by the end of the Detroit show, something to make me commit again to a company that has gone quite a ways to disappoint me this last 18 months. H.T.T.(the aftermarket types like Shelby,Roush,and others will not do it for me) had better be front and center(recall he is the head of product creation and the custodian of the SVT legacy) in the next 10-12 weeks, or I have to spend my $ elsewhere.

 

 

 

You guys kill me! If I was to ask you guys five years ago if you think that ford would build a Mustang with a 5.4 liter engine, you would have said probably. If I asked if Ford would build a retro style Mustang you would have said probably not. If I asked if Ford would build a Mustang Cobra with 500hp, you would have said I doubt it. Then If I would have asked if Ford would team up again with Carroll Shelby to produce a Shelby GT-500 with 500hp that is semi-affordable(damn ADM's!), you would have laughed at me! My point is, our dreams have come true. Appreciate where we are today. My 2 cents

 

Marc

[carnut]

Ford made a mistake dumping SVT. I know they still claim to have it, but it "has been assimiliated" and no longer has the ability to do its thing. That was why the other car manufactures cloned it, SRT, AMG, even GM is likely jumping on the wagon, wait, they call it Corvette.

 

I choose to hang out and see what Ford does offer. And by they way snide comments about tape and stickers obviously worries someone at GM

[JETSOLVER]

You guys kill me! If I was to ask you guys five years ago if you think that ford would build a Mustang with a 5.4 liter engine, you would have said probably. If I asked if Ford would build a retro style Mustang you would have said probably not. If I asked if Ford would build a Mustang Cobra with 500hp, you would have said I doubt it. Then If I would have asked if Ford would team up again with Carroll Shelby to produce a Shelby GT-500 with 500hp that is semi-affordable(damn ADM's!), you would have laughed at me! My point is, our dreams have come true. Appreciate where we are today. My 2 cents

 

Marc

 

 

 

Here is the problem Marc. Your wrong. Seven years ago Ford built one of the ALL TIME pure factory cars in the 2000 SVT COBRA R. It was 5.4 l, and it was rated at a silly 385 Natural. It made more than that at the rear wheels. It was built for the hardcore by the hardcore, and SVT followed that up with the Terminator, which as any student of history knows was the direct genesis for the GT500, and set a completly new industry standard for price/performance. Not to mention the early SVT Cobras's which were built with the strongest block Ford has ever built and to the best of my knowledge the only Ford V8's to run to 7400 revs out the factory door.(you haven't experianced the performance renaissance until you have heard a real American V8 go to the level of a Ferrari. It really,truly is something special.)

 

So to answer your questions, Absolutely Yes, perhaps(but a pony car is a pretty fixed style in itself), Yes is that all?, and that means nothing to the performance of the car in question.

 

And yes, this generation is the best, but most of us were expecting more. And had good reason to.

[68fastback]

.

 

probably, (5.4)

 

probably, (retrostang)

 

not likely, (500HP)

 

absolutely (Shelby -- Ford's been courting him back for over six years now ;-)

 

------------

 

Marc, welcome to the site! There's a lot of history in some of the posts and sentiments here so the assumptons behind some of our comments are often a bit opaque -- but glad you found us; stick around and don't be shy.

 

Having said that, +1 on Jetsolver's comments... we're not ungrateful, we just kow what Ford is really capable of. Still the GT500 is awesome.

 

-Dan

[futureGT500owner]

.

 

probably, (5.4)

 

probably, (retrostang)

 

not likely, (500HP)

 

absolutely (Shelby -- Ford's been courting him back for over six years now ;-)

 

------------

 

Marc, welcome to the site! There's a lot of history in some of the posts and sentiments here so the assumptons behind some of our comments are often a bit opaque -- but glad you found us; stick around and don't be shy.

 

Having said that, +1 on Jetsolver's comments... we're not ungrateful, we just kow what Ford is really capable of. Still the GT500 is awesome.

 

-Dan

 

Thanks for the welcome. I do feel that it is the people on a forum like this that keep the car designers and the decision makers from getting lazy. They might not hear us directly, but they can feel us breathing down their neck. It's just that for me, this GT-500 is what i've dreamed about for 10 years now, and now I am in the position to afford it. As soon as these darn ADM's go away, I will start cleaning out a special place in the garage for her. Thanks for hearing me out, and coming back with an informed and positive response.

 

Marc

[68fastback]

Ford made a mistake dumping SVT. I know they still claim to have it, but it "has been assimiliated" and no longer has the ability to do its thing. That was why the other car manufactures cloned it, SRT, AMG, even GM is likely jumping on the wagon, wait, they call it Corvette.

 

I choose to hang out and see what Ford does offer. And by they way snide comments about tape and stickers obviously worries someone at GM

 

Carnut, are you really feeling SVT isgone? I think SVT has just been using its engineering talent to help FRPP get its parts bin back in order -- I think the Boss 302 crates are the first, but not last visible sign of the mentoring. But I certainly don't think SVT is gone -- they even did the heavy lifting on the GT500 and, via the FRP bin, on the Shelby GT-H & GT.

 

I may be in the minority, but I think HTT was smart to partly re-mission SVT until Ford gets its product rollout plan back in order. I'm expecting SVT to continue to be the 'sepcial' talent behind upcoming goodies like the Boss stang(s), the Boss SportTrac (whatever son-of-Lightning is called) as well as most all other hi-po special-vehicle offerings.

 

I think the recent ground-up F150 remake which added some 700-800lbs on it's predicessor (towing and load upscalling needs, etc) and the SRT10 Ram made a follow-on F-150-based Lightning temporarily unwise and once the work on the GT500 was done, that talent had to be protected.

 

I think SVT is alive and well and very actively, if quietly, doing the engineering and feasibility that will pave the way for some very special offerings betw now and MY'10. I cetainly could be brainwashed on this, but I genuinely believe if HTT didn't remission a substantial part of the SVT talent to low visibility technical mentoring and feasibility work, he would have been forced to permanently remission more of that talent -- talent he knows is not easily relpaced or even reassembled if he were to lose control of them.

 

Given the givens at the time, I think some good decisions were made given the larger Ford product plan. Likely we have not seen the end of either SVT's talent or the SVT brand -- just an unfortunate lull and temporary redirection to preserve the talent while the ship gets on the new course.

 

Certainly you are corect that eveyone has copied the SV/SVO/SVT model. Actually, all of the big three were using the same model for some time but Ford was the first one to see the wisdom of capitalizing on the branding and John Coletti did a superb job of making that brand arguably the most respected performance brand-within-a-brand in the industry and eventually copied, in a branding sense, by most everyone else.

 

I don't think Ford has forgotten that, tho Ihave to admit, as I get older, waiting is getting harder

 

.

[carnut]

I would like to be the first one to be wrong on this one. If HT is smart enough to regroup and bring out new SVT branded products then he will be a hero.

 

Unfortunately all the press has said so and still says so, kinda. Although once in a while I hear a glimmer and I hope. :heartbreaker:

 

We both know SVT brought out something special and is envied by the other brands, they copy it.

 

Yes, I think it is gone as it was, maybe it will be a Phoenix and rise from the ashes as something better, I really hope so, because SVT products have lit my fire since 93 :party2:

[mad103]

Although we are now teamed up with Shelby and Roush, having Steve Saleen partner with GM will be a hard blow that Ford may not recover from. Even if Saleen remains with us and works with GM, GM has always had bigger engines with more HP and now having Saleen SC them and E them will just blow us out of the water. I do not know the exact performance stats on the E, but is it not faster than the Shelby GT500? I know it runs 550hp vs Shelby's 500hp, and thats considering the E has the 4.6L vs 5.4L on Shelby. Plus the styling cues on Saleen are beautiful. It may not be "Mustang" looking but the lines scream out power. If Saleen does leave, Ford will have to up the ante on its engines and stock hp. The new BOSS will really have to GUARANTEE that it will be the BOSS of BOSSES on the road. I have always been FORD loyal but Ford really needs to look at the competition and step up to them. How about taking the FORD GT tech DIRECTLY into Mustang. I know the GT500 follows the GT, but not enough. Just my 2 cents, feel free to agree or disagree. I respect everyones opinion.

 

Alex

[Alloy Dave]

Plus the styling cues on Saleen are beautiful.

Alex

 

I disagree with this point. I also priced a Saleen when I looked at the GT500...the one I was interested in was more expensive by far than a GT500 (I got my GT500 at MSRP).

 

AD

[rpretzel]

I disagree with this point. I also priced a Saleen when I looked at the GT500...the one I was interested in was more expensive by far than a GT500 (I got my GT500 at MSRP).

 

AD

 

 

I looked at both a Saleen and a Roush at local dealers and I too found both were priced significantly higher than my Shelby. Plus, I'm not really pleased with some of the styling of the Saleeen & Roush models.

[mad103]

I disagree with this point. I also priced a Saleen when I looked at the GT500...the one I was interested in was more expensive by far than a GT500 (I got my GT500 at MSRP).

 

AD

 

 

 

Wow, but you are like 1 in a million. You are the first person I ever heard that got the GT500 at MSRP. In regards to the style, I like it, especially the last body Saleens but I do see how others dont. It doesnt look like a Mustang that much. All in all, I respect everybodies opinion and taste. We all have great taste. Trust me, I too would get a GT500 over any Saleen, any day! Roush, however, I read that it does outhandle GT500s, not sure about the Saleen E though. Roush, never really into their style either. But anyhow, hopefully this is a wake-up call to Ford and we boost up the performance of the cars because Camaro will be a POWERFUL car with Saleen backing it. IMO

[MustangFanatic]

I looked at both a Saleen and a Roush at local dealers and I too found both were priced significantly higher than my Shelby. Plus, I'm not really pleased with some of the styling of the Saleeen & Roush models.

 

 

The only model I like from either company is the PJ Saleen. Saleen finally hit a home run with that one in my book.

[Alloy Dave]

Wow, but you are like 1 in a million.

I guess that's 2 in a million if you look at rpretzel's post.

[DutchGT500]

The only model I like from either company is the PJ Saleen. Saleen finally hit a home run with that one in my book.

 

A PJ Saleen. Now that must be my next car.

 

PJ

[mad103]

A PJ Saleen. Now that must be my next car.

 

PJ

 

 

 

Yea its nice. Saleen nailed it. But now the problem is, he will be doing the same with Camaro! Shelby, Roush, you guys better kick it up 100000000000000000 notches!!!

[68fastback]

I guess that's 2 in a million if you look at rpretzel's post.

 

...make that 3 in 1,000,000 ;-)

 

.

[mad103]

...make that 3 in 1,000,000 ;-)

 

.

 

 

 

OK!!!! 3 in 1,000,000. That is really ticking me off because I am not 1 of them!!!!....You guys have a secret and you are not sharing it. HOW did you guys get it at NO ADM!? Are your last names FORD? Or any ties to the MAFIA? Seems like the only possible way!

[68fastback]

I was just kidding, so back to 2:1M, but I know some else who got at MSRP, so back to 3:1M

 

.

[rpretzel]

OK!!!! 3 in 1,000,000. That is really ticking me off because I am not 1 of them!!!!....You guys have a secret and you are not sharing it. HOW did you guys get it at NO ADM!? Are your last names FORD? Or any ties to the MAFIA? Seems like the only possible way!

 

I didn't get mine at MSRP, but the ADM was small ($2K). Bought from a tiny dealer out in the sticks.

[rbortnick]

OK!!!! 3 in 1,000,000. That is really ticking me off because I am not 1 of them!!!!....You guys have a secret and you are not sharing it. HOW did you guys get it at NO ADM!? Are your last names FORD? Or any ties to the MAFIA? Seems like the only possible way!

 

 

Make it 4, believe it or not, there are people that got theirs under sticker.

 

Easy - Get in early and force your dealer to write it up as MSRP during the intitial negotiations. Thats what I did, it worked and I got mine at MSRP.