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Blower Alternative


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I was browsing through the Brenspeed web site and a thought came to me!

 

Apparently, with cams, a throttle body, the SCT tuner and their intake, I can come close to 375 at the wheels (safely) - for about $3500 less than adding the Roush blower.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I'm trying to get the most bang for my bucks here.

 

Thanks - Bryan

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I was browsing through the Brenspeed web site and a thought came to me!

 

Apparently, with cams, a throttle body, the SCT tuner and their intake, I can come close to 375 at the wheels (safely) - for about $3500 less than adding the Roush blower.

 

Your thoughts?

 

I'm trying to get the most bang for my bucks here.

 

Thanks - Bryan

 

 

 

Bryan,

 

 

So glad you brought up this topic. I'm going to be purchasing a new GT in the spring and am looking at the different power upgrade options. I'm having serious concerns in putting a blower on a car that does not have forged internals. I know others have done it but I am concerned about how the internals will hold up in the long term.

 

The blower will most definitely give the greatest power boost vs a cam and head install. I just read a thread on Modularforums.com where a guy made 465 rwhp with the Whipple 10psi HO kit. That puts the car right in GT500 territory but the question is for how long???

 

The head/cam combo is the safer route in my opinion. While you may not get the max power of a blower, at least you won't have to worry about throwing a rod or cracking a piston. As far as getting 375 at the wheels I think that is a little high.

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Agreed. Since I'm not going to be bracket racing - I really don't care about dyno numbers per say.

 

I'm just using them as a reference. I probably couldn't tell 350 from 375 at the wheels on the street.

 

My objective is a stronger car - on a budget - and reliability.

 

I don't need to see the blower on the engine to feel good!

 

If I can get "around" 400 at the crank, I'll be a happy teacher! (those pesky Camaros and Challengers are coming, you know....) :rockon:

 

I want to represent the Blue Oval with pride.

 

(I'm still waiting for my ECU to give me full throttle in 1st and 2nd so I can knock on my C6 neighbor's door...)

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Agreed. Since I'm not going to be bracket racing - I really don't care about dyno numbers per say.

 

I'm just using them as a reference. I probably couldn't tell 350 from 375 at the wheels on the street.

 

My objective is a stronger car - on a budget - and reliability.

 

I don't need to see the blower on the engine to feel good!

 

If I can get "around" 400 at the crank, I'll be a happy teacher! (those pesky Camaros and Challengers are coming, you know....) :rockon:

 

I want to represent the Blue Oval with pride.

 

(I'm still waiting for my ECU to give me full throttle in 1st and 2nd so I can knock on my C6 neighbor's door...)

 

 

With a head/cam combo, full exhaust, cai and a tune you should be right where you want to be. A good place to contact for the head/cam combo is Boss330racing.com. If I decide to go this route that's who will be doing my work. :rockon:

 

Forgot to add one thing. You don't need a whole lot of power to go pretty quick with these cars. I've seen posts of guys having "only" 300 - 310 rwhp and running mid to low 12's. This is one of the major factors that made me decide to get rid of my 90 GT convertible and pick up a S197 Stang.

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Bryan, one of the major reasons I traded in the 03 Mach 1 for the 07 GT was mods available. The Mach 1's DOHC made for expensive upgrades. A cam upgrade - parts & labor - was about $4,000 - $4,500 due to the 4 cams, related hardware, and 20 hours of shop time! For an extra $1,500, the high flow Cobra heads are available in the FRPP catalog for the Mach 1's. So, for $6,000 you'd get about 60hp, or $100 per hp. I also considered a blower. 150hp to 175hp depending on who you believe. For about $6,500 that's roughly $40 per hp, which is incredibly cheap on a per-hp basis, but outside my budget. The little stuff like CAI's, exhaust, tuning, etc. just don't yield enough hp gains to justify what they typically cost. Even the 4.30 gears I had installed did NOT improve my 1/4 mile ET, but sure made the car feel better.

 

The 2005-7 GT's, on the other hand, have a wealth of aftermarket love available. Decent tuning and premium fuel yield about 25-40hp. With a SOHC motor, there's only 2 cams, and they're easier to get to, so a cam swap is more like $2K max with 40hp being quoted. Blowers are still spendy (about $6K installed) and past my budget, but you get about 115-125 safe, low-boost hp with a roots-style Saleen or Roush. Exhaust benefits are few (unless you count better sound as a benefit) as the factory already uses 2.5" mandrel bent stainless steel with a header-like exhaust manifold. CAI's are pretty much useless for more power unless you change the tune (SCT, Diablo, etc.), but you'd get almost the same gain by just changing the tune without spending for the CAI. Gears supposedly do improve things at the track for the new GT's, and a high-stall torque converter is a good investment for the drags (for those of us with automatics).

 

I think my GT will soon be making more power than the Mach 1 ever did. 12.9's is all I'm looking for in the 1/4 mile; that's not too greedy is it?

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B)-->

QUOTE(Five Oh B @ Oct 15 2006, 06:47 PM) 50173[/snapback]

Bryan, one of the major reasons I traded in the 03 Mach 1 for the 07 GT was mods available. The Mach 1's DOHC made for expensive upgrades. A cam upgrade - parts & labor - was about $4,000 - $4,500 due to the 4 cams, related hardware, and 20 hours of shop time! For an extra $1,500, the high flow Cobra heads are available in the FRPP catalog for the Mach 1's. So, for $6,000 you'd get about 60hp, or $100 per hp. I also considered a blower. 150hp to 175hp depending on who you believe. For about $6,500 that's roughly $40 per hp, which is incredibly cheap on a per-hp basis, but outside my budget. The little stuff like CAI's, exhaust, tuning, etc. just don't yield enough hp gains to justify what they typically cost. Even the 4.30 gears I had installed did NOT improve my 1/4 mile ET, but sure made the car feel better.

 

The 2005-7 GT's, on the other hand, have a wealth of aftermarket love available. Decent tuning and premium fuel yield about 25-40hp. With a SOHC motor, there's only 2 cams, and they're easier to get to, so a cam swap is more like $2K max with 40hp being quoted. Blowers are still spendy (about $6K installed) and past my budget, but you get about 115-125 safe, low-boost hp with a roots-style Saleen or Roush. Exhaust benefits are few (unless you count better sound as a benefit) as the factory already uses 2.5" mandrel bent stainless steel with a header-like exhaust manifold. CAI's are pretty much useless for more power unless you change the tune (SCT, Diablo, etc.), but you'd get almost the same gain by just changing the tune without spending for the CAI. Gears supposedly do improve things at the track for the new GT's, and a high-stall torque converter is a good investment for the drags (for those of us with automatics).

 

I think my GT will soon be making more power than the Mach 1 ever did. 12.9's is all I'm looking for in the 1/4 mile; that's not too greedy is it?

 

 

 

12.90's in an auto GT should be relatively easy to achieve. Alternative Auto did it with very few mods, check out this link:

 

Alternative Auto 12.90 run

 

Most of the performance improvement was from the torque converter they were using and the 3:55 rear gear.

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Thanks, y'all.

 

It feels good to be able to bounce ideas off you guys and get some feedback before laying down the bread!

 

Some people can just throw money at a car and not care about the results.

 

Not me! :shift:

 

 

Edit: Carnut - you're like the little devil on my shoulder! Yes - if I had the bread - I'd buy the blower!

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Thanks, y'all.

 

It feels good to be able to bounce ideas off you guys and get some feedback before laying down the bread!

 

Some people can just throw money at a car and not care about the results.

 

Not me! :shift:

Edit: Carnut - you're like the little devil on my shoulder! Yes - if I had the bread - I'd buy the blower!

 

 

 

Here's that thread I mentioned about the Whipple HO kit dyno:

 

 

Whipple 10 psi dyno

 

 

Only way I'd do this kit is with a built bottom end. Heads and cam combo is a lot safer!!!

 

Plus I'd be willing to bet your gas milage will be better than his ........

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My $.02 - if you get the power on "all motor" it'll be fast no doubt and it'll certainly be "old school" but... with FI (turbo or blower (I don't count (H)Eatons)) you get fairly normal driveability until you want the power. If it's all motor - it's in "hot rod" mode all the time. I just feel that you'll have more longevity issues with that than you would an FI setup. I'm guessing mileage will plummet, too.

 

Also makes it more difficult to return the car to stock if it was ever needed - I know more than one person who has eventually done this.

 

Blower and turbos have become the way to go (in my opinion of course :)) because new generation computers allow us to precisely control air/fuel/spark and that in turn, lets us run high boost without blowing a hole in the block.

 

People do blow motors up on FI (but I don't think there are that many) - almost everyone is traced back to improper air/fuel/spark (i.e; a bad tune) or they had the wrong injectors or a weak fuel pump. If you get enough fuel to it and don't get greedy with the spark it's relatively safe.

 

:shift:

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My $.02 - if you get the power on "all motor" it'll be fast no doubt and it'll certainly be "old school" but... with FI (turbo or blower (I don't count (H)Eatons)) you get fairly normal driveability until you want the power. If it's all motor - it's in "hot rod" mode all the time. I just feel that you'll have more longevity issues with that than you would an FI setup. I'm guessing mileage will plummet, too.

 

Also makes it more difficult to return the car to stock if it was ever needed - I know more than one person who has eventually done this.

 

Blower and turbos have become the way to go (in my opinion of course :)) because new generation computers allow us to precisely control air/fuel/spark and that in turn, lets us run high boost without blowing a hole in the block.

 

People do blow motors up on FI (but I don't think there are that many) - almost everyone is traced back to improper air/fuel/spark (i.e; a bad tune) or they had the wrong injectors or a weak fuel pump. If you get enough fuel to it and don't get greedy with the spark it's relatively safe.

 

:shift:

 

 

You will have longevity issues with the blower or turbo, not NA. These cars don't have forged parts like the GT500 so too much boost and it will go boom. It's much harder to get the power going the NA route but it's much safer in my opinion.

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You will have longevity issues with the blower or turbo, not NA. These cars don't have forged parts like the GT500 so too much boost and it will go boom. It's much harder to get the power going the NA route but it's much safer in my opinion.

 

 

These engines safely run 9-10psi. Not a big deal.

 

An NA car putting down 440RWHP is going to be much more high strung than a turbo'd car putting down 440RWHP. All I have to do is bolt on the correct external parts (blower/turbo) and I have 440RWHP. Oh, and I get to run pump gas.

 

The fastest street Mustangs at the track are FI or N02 (another form of FI really).

 

People blow motors because they get careless or push it too far. All of the 3v blow ups I'm aware of are due to fuel (bad tune) issues. Yes, if you put a 20lb spring in the wastegate on a stock bottom end then you'll get what you deserve.

 

If you push 400+ RWHP and run out of fuel at WOT - she'll blow... doesn't matter if there's boost or not.

 

Best way to do it is built engine with FI - cost $$$ but if you wanna go fast all it really takes is $$$.

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My '96 is NA on the street and NA+N2O at the track. Making close to 300RWHP, the motor is not very street-friendly. It's not bad, but "Hot Rod" mode takes some of the fun out of driving. Having the instant response and SUPER fat torque curve in the Shelby is a gas. Both cars get the same milage.

 

A well engineered blower set-up (read complete package) is plug-n-play. It'll always be friendly to drive. You don't need forged internals to run 6-8 psi. You only need a good tune. Remember that 7.5 psi gets you 50% more flywheel HP and 15% = 100% more. Also, if you EVER drive at altitude, the NA motor will suffer more than the FI motor. I hope you make your goal, no matter which route you take.

 

Don't fear the boost, unless it's not in your car.

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hmm...twin turbos...I wonder how much hp that would generate....?

 

Nah - they probably don't make a TT for the 4.6...

 

ah, grasshopper, you have much to learn!

 

The shop that did my work developed an intercooled twin turbo system for the S197. I must get pics of it!

 

It is the most brilliant system I've ever seen - it's one of those installations that leaves you saying "I can't believe no one thought of this before." The turbos are at the collector end of the headers - virtually no additional heat buildup in the engine compt. You'd think they would be exposed to road rash, but they're tucked up close to the body and the ground clearance is retained (heat shields still in place so there's no problems with heating the carpet). With about 6-8 psi it puts down 475 to the wheels. I had a chance to drive it and although I didn't really get in to it (scaredy cat), I could feel it coming on strong - simply awesome! psshhhh! And the car was otherwise perfectly mannered and streetable.

 

The system installed is about $7900. This includes the intercooler, aux oiling system for the turbos, fuel pumps, etc - complete, turn key. One of his customer's cars has the system plus a bunch of other work and it puts out about 900 hp.

 

...must get pics!

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ah, grasshopper, you have much to learn!

 

The shop that did my work developed an intercooled twin turbo system for the S197. I must get pics of it!

 

It is the most brilliant system I've ever seen - it's one of those installations that leaves you saying "I can't believe no one thought of this before." The turbos are at the collector end of the headers - virtually no additional heat buildup in the engine compt. You'd think they would be exposed to road rash, but they're tucked up close to the body and the ground clearance is retained (heat shields still in place so there's no problems with heating the carpet). With about 6-8 psi it puts down 475 to the wheels. I had a chance to drive it and although I didn't really get in to it (scaredy cat), I could feel it coming on strong - simply awesome! psshhhh! And the car was otherwise perfectly mannered and streetable.

 

The system installed is about $7900. This includes the intercooler, aux oiling system for the turbos, fuel pumps, etc - complete, turn key. One of his customer's cars has the system plus a bunch of other work and it puts out about 900 hp.

 

...must get pics!

 

What is the name of the shop that did the work? I'll bet the price will come down in a couple of years. I think there is are a few other companies that have a similar setup. One of them has the turbos at the rear of the car. That would kind of worry me.

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Bryan, we use a vendor called Auto FX in Tacoma, WA that does some wild mods. They do a couple Mustang per month for us and our customers. I went for a ride in their shop car - a 2005 Mustang GT Coupe that is turbocharged and putting down 550hp to the wheels I'm told. No reason to doubt that figure after going for a ride in it. Very linear power curve that just keeps growing as you get to redline. In fact, the power just never drops off! Doesn't have the intial neck snap of a roots style blower, but much faster once you get rolling. I forget the exact cost of the turbo install, but is was only marginally more than having a supercharger install done. Click here for their blogspot.

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What is the name of the shop that did the work? I'll bet the price will come down in a couple of years. I think there is are a few other companies that have a similar setup. One of them has the turbos at the rear of the car. That would kind of worry me.

 

 

I've seen that system - too much plumbing. I'd think the exhaust would have too much time to cool by the time it made it's way back there and the resulting turbo lag would be excessive.

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I've got to agree with FordEvangelist. The FI approach keeps streetability and mileage and, tuned right, will likely stress things far less HP-for-HP. That's why folks like Roush and others can preserve the factory warranty.

 

If you take the NA route, you either keep the stock heads and push lift and duration and, to the extent you do that, driveability, mileage and emissions go to hell quickly. That's fine for a track car, but for a streeter it's a drag, especially when it's inspection time.

 

If you get FRP ported 3V heads, they're $4K+ and you still need some other parts AND unless you plan on running your stock cam, you'll be up to $5K for heads/cams. Then you'll need headers too, and ported heads without matching intake is a waste of money. Starts making the blower look really cheap!

 

Low boost blowers like the Roush are specifically designed for the GT so you don't have to swap out the stock GT pistons for lower CR. The stock intake and headers are adequate (for street -- 115-150HP gain) because the blower is forcing the flow (sure headers, intake, heads and a forged bottom-end won't hurt, but we're trying to not build a $20K engine here, right?). And you can have your 414-450HP with smooth idle, good mileage (when you're just cruising) and guaranteed emissions in all 50-states -- AND a factory warranty!!!

 

There's just no comparison, IMO. And setups like the Roush are designed to protect the motor and preserve milage with bypass valves and special programming matched to the application.

 

My personal preference is for the sweet sound of natural induction, but $$/HP, streetability, etc, FI is the way to go on the GT and as long as you keep it under 450HP (like Roush) reliability should be excellent.

 

just my $.0375 ;-)

 

.

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