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Why supercharging over turbocharging?


mach 1 1970

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I just looked @ the 09 cars . The European cars have 44 turbo applications to 1 supercharger . Japanese 13 applications no superchargers. I also noticed the Chevy SS cobalt went from supercharging 205 hp to turbocharging 260 hp . They are using direct injection and max torque is @ 2500 rpm. I have read that this engine can easily handle 500 hp and this is a 4 banger. This system seems to be the state of the art . Maybe this system would save some weight on our Shelby's of the future. But why are so many of the other manufactures using turbocharging over supercharging ? It seems packaging has something to do with it. But what else ?

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Supercharging is popular because it is usually easier to install. In a non-inter-cooled setup it can be very simple to do. Turbocharging fans can take heart, however, the first kits have already hit the market for the S197 and soon there will be a lot more. I'm not going to talk about the advantages of each because with todays variety of equipment, it is easy to hit your goals of torque, horsepower, rpm where both are made, expense, weight, and ease of installation with either setup. Ford looks like they are going to the twin turbo setup with the next generation of engines so if you are a turbo fan and don't want to do the install, just hang on.

 

It does seem that everyone is going turbo but remember this: you will still find the superchargers reigning supreme in the funny cars and top fuel.

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I think the SC spools up faster. TC has a bit of lag. Either one of them can blow up an engine.

SC robs power up front, TC out back (chokes the exhaust).

 

I don't remember the guy's name, but he had a Ford GT in Oviedo with twin-turbos AND a supercharger.

 

THAT's what I'm talkin' about!!

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I went with a Turbo set up on my SGT. This is a stock engine with 456rwhp and 502lbs of torque. There are more options right now for the 4.6 then there is for the GT500. Hellion is working on their Hellrasier kit for the GT500, it's a TT that will work with the SC and with out. Evo offers a TT kit for the GT500, it's a in house build only. There are pros and cons to both SC and Turbos.

 

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I think the SC spools up faster. TC has a bit of lag. Either one of them can blow up an engine.

SC robs power up front, TC out back (chokes the exhaust).

 

I don't remember the guy's name, but he had a Ford GT in Oviedo with twin-turbos AND a supercharger.

 

THAT's what I'm talkin' about!!

 

 

:yup: Both :happy feet:

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And some people cry about cutting the precious shelbys. Show me where to drawl the dotted line. I'll cut it to pieces. I want a turbo. Someone gonna make us a kit???? A mail order kit.

 

 

check out hellions web site, not really speculation anymore they save they have a kit in the works

 

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to talk about other shops than the advertisers but if you check out AMP Performance web site and check out their car gallery and you you'll see 2 Saleen extremes rocking hellion kits with t-76's and making about 800 on pump. They used hellion kits with some custom mods but because the 4.6 and 5.4's are so similar its really jsut a matter of accesory clearences and such

 

what im getting at here isvthat a turbo system has always been available, in the sense that you go to a good shop who knows there custom fab and they could set you up with somthing. check out evo perf, seem like its only a matter of production for them to get some kits out...

 

 

OH and they had these cars done about a year ago

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a t-76 wont spool as quick as a smaller turbo for obvious reason, but a t76 on a 5.4L mod motor its going to be just as quick as you want.

 

we could sit here all day and argue twin vs single turbos but a single t76 is a solid set up and stupid fast

 

the owners did go through a supercharger upgrade as well as a smaller turbo set up before going all the way t76

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Just curious about the routing of the post inter-cooler pipe back over the turbine stage - any heat issues? Doesn't look like there is any thermal shielding. GT500-07 has a similar setup and I was wondering why the turbo wasn't located further aft an lower, nearer the exhaust manifold. There is probably a very good reason why and I'm curious. It looks really nice sitting up top like that - easy to see.

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Just curious about the routing of the post inter-cooler pipe back over the turbine stage - any heat issues? Doesn't look like there is any thermal shielding. GT500-07 has a similar setup and I was wondering why the turbo wasn't located further aft an lower, nearer the exhaust manifold. There is probably a very good reason why and I'm curious. It looks really nice sitting up top like that - easy to see.

 

 

its a good question and one i'm sure hellion has a good answer too. i suppose thats the most spacious area and i've seen a ton of these set up and never herd once about hot intake temps, most the inter-coolers that are run in those systems are awesome so if it was raising intake temps it wasnt enough for anyone to make a fuss about. Not to say a heat shield or a little turbo wrap wouldn't help.

 

suppose at 800 at the wheels your not really worried about a few degrees on the intake temp! take note hat car has a sister build almost the exact same and thoes pictures were taken awhile ago, andy the cars may have been tweeked since.

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its a good question and one i'm sure hellion has a good answer too. i suppose thats the most spacious area and i've seen a ton of these set up and never herd once about hot intake temps, most the inter-coolers that are run in those systems are awesome so if it was raising intake temps it wasnt enough for anyone to make a fuss about. Not to say a heat shield or a little turbo wrap wouldn't help.

 

suppose at 800 at the wheels your not really worried about a few degrees on the intake temp! take note hat car has a sister build almost the exact same and thoes pictures were taken awhile ago, andy the cars may have been tweeked since.

 

800 at the wheels would be quite enough! Thank you for the answer.

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It does seem that everyone is going turbo but remember this: you will still find the superchargers reigning supreme in the funny cars and top fuel.

 

 

That is true, but can be misleading. Turbochargers are illegal in NHRA top fuel and funny cars. You can't even run a twin screw or high-helix roots in these super-restricted classes. That is why everyone's combination is so similar: 490-500 cu. in. single in-block cam V8, specific-spec 2 valve heads, specific roots style supercharger. It is not because superchargers are superior to turbochargers. Besides this, racing at this level has litle to do with production automobiles.

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It's been a while since I encountered this issue, but the turbos I've been familiar with had fairly short lives because of heat and bearings dropping out of the oil and flat spotting. Also, isn't heat more of an issue with tc over sc? Finally, there's the dreaded turbo-lag, but current technology may have eliminated this. I'm not favoring one over the other, just my $.02 on the original question.....

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"....It does seem that everyone is going turbo but remember this: you will still find the superchargers reigning supreme in the funny cars and top fuel."

 

 

That is true, but can be misleading. Turbochargers are illegal in NHRA top fuel and funny cars. You can't even run a twin screw or high-helix roots in these super-restricted classes. That is why everyone's combination is so similar: 490-500 cu. in. single in-block cam V8, specific-spec 2 valve heads, specific roots style supercharger. It is not because superchargers are superior to turbochargers. Besides this, racing at this level has litle to do with production automobiles.

 

Ooops , my ignorance about drag racing is showing. All I knew is that they all sported positive dispalcement superchargers. Thanks for the info!

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Alright folks here ya go, i emailed Craig at Hellion because hey, why not just go to the source.... here what he had to say!

 

Craig @ Hellion Power Systems

 

I read through the thread that you linked me too, and I'll be happy to answer some questions that you specifically, as well as the people on the forum have asked.

 

 

 

First and foremost, an answer to your question. There are several reasons that we placed the turbo where we did. The first reason is pretty simple, because that's about where we placed the turbo on our 99-04 Mustang applications. Since we had experience with the placement of the turbocharger in that location, we decided to see if it would work the same on a 3V as it did on the 2V engines. Secondly, you are correct in assuming that it has something to do with packaging. Since we like to be able to offer larger turbocharger upgrades, the space in which we place the turbo is critical, as it will determine what turbochargers can be used. After measuring the area, and seeing what, if anything would have to be removed or relocated, we decided on that area because the placement of the turbo there isn't very intrusive as far as accessories go, and there's virtually no relocating of any engine or vehicle system components.

 

 

 

Also, be placing the turbo in or around the engine bay, the turbo remains closer to the engine, and since turbo spool is directly related to exhaust heat and velocity, this means that we create a more efficient, faster spooling setup.

 

 

 

Now, for the other questions from the forums. The intake piping to the throttle body is really not that close to turbine or compressor sides of the turbo. There are a couple of inches of separation there, and that's all that is needed to keep unnecessary heat transfer from occurring. In this picture you can see the amount of separation between the two, and this is with the larger 76mm turbo.

 

**PIC**

 

 

Also, a heat shield option is available, and will help keep under hood temps down.

 

 

 

For anyone that is curious how the kits run, I provide you this video of our shop '05 GT with a built shortblock (stock displacement, stock heads, stock intake, stock cams, stock throttle body) vs. a twin turbo Cobra. I'll leave it up to you to make your own conclusions on the effectiveness of the kits.

 

 

 

 

 

There you go! Craig was also nice enough to disclose some information about the GT500 set up and general release timeframe and pice range but for advertising reasons i did not include it. SO IF A MODERATOR says its ok id be happy to post the end of the email, but other wise feel free to PM me or email craig, you wont be disappointed!

 

-6tg Gear

 

PIC from above

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Here are good and bad points on each Supercharger and Turbo Charging

 

Supercharger Good

Cooler dense charge of air, makes engine cooler, and air charge cooler, better burn (even without a Intercooler)

Supercharger Bad

Stress on the flywheel of the engine, Roush in their supercharger for the 2001-2004 mustang built a shreve (large metal plate) that sat in front of the block to support the block and flywheel better.

Reduction in Horsepower, to drive the supercharger a percentage of the power that is created is consumed to drive the impeller on the supercharger

 

Turbo Good

Higher pressure of air entering the engine

No loss of HP, or nearly none since it is powered on the exhaust pressure from the engine firing.

Intercoolers help to dissipate heat on the charge of air, and do not use exhaust gases for the charge as some early turbos did.

 

Turbo Bad

Heat stress on engine, stress on turbo

Originally there was a lag, building up enough pressure on the exhaust stroke to drive the turbo, but improvements on the impeller design and the feed for the turbo appear to be making strides in lessening this affect.

 

Ecoboost from Ford and others, this is the future, not distant future like 2009 cars...

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=27455

 

Wonder how long before this starts showing up in the Mustang 2011 ?

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There will be no winner in a turbo -vs- supercharger debate as to which is "better". I currently drive both a 2008 GT500 and an '06 Mustang GT with a single 67mm turbo and built 4.6L. I love both cars and while the GT500 wins hands down in style points - I loooove the feeling of driving the turbo car. The GT500 pulls harder off idle, but with practice the turbo car is easier to launch hard and when the boost comes in between 2500-2900rpm it is a violent and addictive rush!

A properly engineered turbo system will have no underhood heat issues, no perceptible "lag" and doesn't suffer from heat soak like a S/C sitting on top of the motor.

Just my 2 cents. :)

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There will be no winner in a turbo -vs- supercharger debate as to which is "better". I currently drive both a 2008 GT500 and an '06 Mustang GT with a single 67mm turbo and built 4.6L. I love both cars and while the GT500 wins hands down in style points - I loooove the feeling of driving the turbo car. The GT500 pulls harder off idle, but with practice the turbo car is easier to launch hard and when the boost comes in between 2500-2900rpm it is a violent and addictive rush!

A properly engineered turbo system will have no underhood heat issues, no perceptible "lag" and doesn't suffer from heat soak like a S/C sitting on top of the motor.

Just my 2 cents. :)

Would you recommend installing the aluminator engine or install forged internal components in the 4.6 L 3V? How much to build the race engine?

 

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http://powerhouse411.com/catalog/index.php...ebcfd12e51fba1a

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Would you recommend installing the aluminator engine or install forged internal components in the 4.6 L 3V? How much to build the race engine?

 

 

1. Not necessarily

 

2. If you wanted to run some decent boost yes forged internals

 

3. As much as you want to spend. Not cheep to build any motor really and you could throw tens of thousands of dollars at one if you had the resources.

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I've had the opportunity to own cars with both technologies. In fact, all of the cars I owned so far had either a supercharger or tubos. I love the instant response of the supercharger in my GT500 a lot although I must say that turbo lag is not what it used to be 10-15 years ago, especially with a twin turbo set up. Turbo lag in my Audi S4 is barely noticable and peak torque is available at very low RPM (1850).

 

It must be said however that in choosing the engine for their new S4 (to be released here next fall), Audi went with an Eaton TVS supercharger instead of the twin turbo set up they were familiar with. The end result is 333HP out of a 3 liter V6, almost as much as their previous 4.2 naturally aspirated V8, with better torque. I guess the people at Audi carefully evaluted all their options and determined that a supercharged engine was the better choice, just as Ford did with the GT500, although some of the reasons for going with one solution instead of the other may relate to practical considerations not strictly related to performance (packaging, cost, etc.).

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