ChipBeck Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Gentlemen, There are now at least four and possibly more different types of superchargers available for the Shelby GT. As soon as I can arrange it I will be doing some performance comparisons between my Whipple equipped car and another local Shelby GT that has the Paxton supercharger. I will make the comparisons as scientific as possible and will list the raw performance numbers as best I can record them. But an objective analysis and write up on the different systems, including how they feel and respond, quality and appearance, as well as how user friendly they are, could probably best be made by someone who doesn't own (and therefore is not used to) any of the systems being reviewed. The individual conducting the review should be familiar with the car, technically astute, and able to write and convey his analysis in a clear and understandable manner (that would be you Mac). The Shelby GT supercharger systems could then be compared to the GT500 and an NA car with performance modifications (which Mac already has). If a number of our members would find this information of value, perhaps we can convince Mac to perform a review on each of the cars and do the write up. If other members would be willing to allow him to drive their Paxton and Kenny Bell equipped cars, I will provide him with my Whipple equipped Shelby GT and GT500. Everybody that has a supercharger (including me) seems to like it, but perhaps we would like one of the other superchargers even better. I would be interested in a comparison of every system available by an impartial third person. What do Team Shelby members think of this idea? And what say you Mac? Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Gentlemen, There are now at least four and possibly more different types of superchargers available for the Shelby GT. As soon as I can arrange it I will be doing some performance comparisons between my Whipple equipped car and another local Shelby GT that has the Paxton supercharger. I will make the comparisons as scientific as possible and will list the raw performance numbers as best I can record them. But an objective analysis and write up on the different systems, including how they feel and respond, quality and appearance, as well as how user friendly they are, could probably best be made by someone who doesn't own (and therefore is not used to) any of the systems being reviewed. The individual conducting the review should be familiar with the car, technically astute, and able to write and convey his analysis in a clear and understandable manner (that would be you Mac). The Shelby GT supercharger systems could then be compared to the GT500 and an NA car with performance modifications (which Mac already has). If a number of our members would find this information of value, perhaps we can convince Mac to perform a review on each of the cars and do the write up. If other members would be willing to allow him to drive their Paxton and Kenny Bell equipped cars, I will provide him with my Whipple equipped Shelby GT and GT500. Everybody that has a supercharger (including me) seems to like it, but perhaps we would like one of the other superchargers even better. I would be interested in a comparison of every system available by an impartial third person. What do Team Shelby members think of this idea? And what say you Mac? Chip well, if Mac wants to make a trip to the east coast I'll pony up a 07-GT500 with a ported and balanced TVS 700+rwhp or a 08-SGT with a 60mm Turbo and a CSX Cobra 485 Shelby Stroker with a Shelby Vortech SC, pulls like a freight train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Well shucks, Chip (licking my toe in the sand), I don't know what to say. Thank you for this high compliment. Okay...I'm up for it. I've owned several supercharged Fords in -2V, and -4V trim, but not a -3V...Yet. As I type this, I am not inclined to supercharge or turbocharge LuLu, she's just too much fun for me in N/A trim. Thus, I won't have any bias towards one power adder system, or, another, just looking for a final performance talley. Happy to help out, maybe some of y'all could forward to me a synopsis of your power adder experience? High fives and disappointments on the install. Plus and minus on your expectations, please. Drop me some notes to SergntMac@aol.com. All submissions will be kept confidential unless you express otherwise. If you prefer, give me a call at 312.401.1396, (24/7 cell w/voice mail), and we'll talk about it. Please include overall cost of the upgrade, and any machining or alterations necessary to the base SGT. Also include any post install blessings and complications, such as improved MPG and serpentine belt shred. (I've been through them both in my past). Drag, Autocross and Road Race track data too, if you have it. This project will require the participation of the membership at large and I'm willing to undertake collecting the 411 and reporting the data. It is sometimes difficult for any of us to reveal our disappointments. But, none of it will be worth a tinker's damn if it's not honest. If offered, I am willing to travel for a test drive at your conveinence (within reason). So..."Drivers...Start...Your...Keyboards!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoTheDigitalDiva Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Although I can't offer any data since my baby isn't super charged (yet), I look forward to your findings and thank you in advance for taking the time to put this all together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 well, if Mac wants to make a trip to the east coast I'll pony up a 07-GT500 with a ported and balanced TVS 700+rwhp or a 08-SGT with a 60mm Turbo and a CSX Cobra 485 Shelby Stroker with a Shelby Vortech SC, pulls like a freight train. Hmmm...Very tempting. Where on the East Coast? I'll be in Jefferson City, MO on Oct. 18-20, and maybe Charleston SC some time in mid April '09. Other than this, I'm open. Make a suggestion for what works for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Although I can't offer any data since my baby isn't super charged (yet), I look forward to your findings and thank you in advance for taking the time to put this all together! Concur. Waiting for results!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 As I type this, I am not inclined to supercharge or turbocharge LuLu, she's just too much fun for me in N/A trim. Thus, I won't have any bias towards one power adder system, or, another, just looking for a final performance talley. Mac, not trying to bust your stones, but are you really saying you're *not* biased toward centrfugals? My distinct impression from numerous other discussions is that you believe they are quite superior. Possibly I was consistently misreading your feelings in the past? Not saying you would not do a fair comparo -- I believe you would try your very best you can. --- Btw, I'm definately biased toward fixed displacement S/Cs for their superior low-mid torque -- the curves tell the story. Yes, I'm like dog with a bone on this subject and freely admit it. Still, I'd be very interested in the results. Just realize that numerous comparos in the past are always somewhat inconclusive because there's no way to fairly and accurately compare. It's a deceptively simple-looking problem. Do you go for identical boost to compare with? Identical peak HP? Identical cars? Identical temperature? Cooldown intervals? Track temperatures? Etc. etc. I repeat from other threads, but for a given *peak* HP, fixed displacement S/C will whip centrifugals due to superior low-mid ...ditto for a given *peak* boost ...all other things being equal. Unless your're testing on an environmental engine dyno with equal *peak* power and/or boost how can any such comparo be even vaguely valid? Cooldown periods will affect them very differently too. I.e. unless the testing can be somehow validated as repeatable (in all aspects) and not favoring one type, what good are the results? Sorry, I don't mean to be raining on the basic idea -- it's a cool idea to do such a comparo and many others have tried it, just realize the outcome will be largely meaningless whatever it shows unless it can be related to some unambiguous standard/constants of some sort which are largely unattainable on a track -- i.e. virtually impossible. Many have tried it and meaningfull on-track conclusions always drain through the fingers due to variations in conditions, circumstance, etc. To explain why that's true in detail might take more time than I may have available over the rest of my natural life, so I'll just leave it there. So, when do we see the results Sorry, not meaning to be glib but, imho, you're grossly underestimating the task (as many have in the past). Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipBeck Posted October 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Mac, not trying to bust your stones, but are you really saying you're *not* biased toward centrfugals? My distinct impression from numerous other discussions is that you believe they are quite superior. Possibly I was consistently misreading your feelings in the past?...... imho, you're grossly underestimating the task (as many have in the past).Dan Dan, "Believe" would be the operative word here. On the Shelby GT I am biased towards centrfugals because of their historical connection to Shelby Mustang's and because the stock strut tower brace can remain in place. But I purchased a Whipple because I like the immediate response I get from a similar type supercharger on my Ford GT. But I haven't had a chance to drive every single system nor do I know anybody who has. Perhaps Mac does "believe" that centrifugals are the best and I "believe" that the Whipple is best. That's why I want to put this comparison together. After driving them all he may conclude that we are both wrong and that the Kenny Bell is the hot set up. If Mac was really that biased toward centrifugals he would own one. This isn't a life or death situation so I wouldn't take this project to task quite so quickly. As a non-SC-owner and unquestionably dyed in the wool Shelby GT fanatic, can you think of a better person than Mac to take this on? First, he doesn't have a dog in this fight nor has he yet driven all the different systems on the 4.6L 3-valve engine. Second, once he has driven them I can assure you he will report what he likes and doesn't like about each one of them. Mac and I have had a couple strenuous differences of opinion, we don't always agree, but he calls them like he sees them. He will not have a superior experience with one system and then slam it because of some prior bias toward a system he doesn't even own. Finally, while this site possesses a number of members with technical expertise, it is difficult to write in a coherent fashion a usable summary that combines that expertise with the experience of the testing one has just conducted. Mac is both able, willing, and has no ax to grind. Buying a supercharger is expensive and they have to be purchased without a test drive as they are nothing but a bunch of parts in boxes. You can't go to local dealership and go for a spin in four or five different models. Each system will increase performance and will probably satisfy its new owner. But if we could have test driven each system before making a decision, I bet some people would have chosen differently. I don't dispute your contention that many variables come into play and a perfect comparison is impossible. But if you allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good, you would be contending that every automobile test drive ever taken is invalid. This hobby and this website exists for the entertainment, education, and good fellowship of its members. Take what you see written here in that spirit of enjoyment and use it or reject it as you see fit. All the best. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipBeck Posted October 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 ...a 08-SGT with a 60mm Turbo... 07, I would love to have that car in the comparison. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Hmmm...Very tempting. Where on the East Coast? I'll be in Jefferson City, MO on Oct. 18-20, and maybe Charleston SC some time in mid April '09. Other than this, I'm open. Make a suggestion for what works for you? Columbia MD, 20 mins south of Baltimore. shoot me a pm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Even the modless will be interested in seeing the final report! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Procharger vs Turbo http://modulardepotvideos.com/video_detail.php?mId=7236 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 LuLu, since you have to travel for this experiement may I suggest you leave Chi-town in February and go to AZ for a test. Chip will be awaiting in Scottsdale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisminx Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Even the modless will be interested in seeing the final report! +10000 I will use these results to help me make my supercharger decision! Thanks guys!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Morris Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Neat idea guys. Cant wait to see the results. I have driven a factory GT500, a Super Snake, Whipple SGT, NA SGT, and a GT500 with a tune. But I never thought of writing anything down about the differences. Lets see I need a Paxton SGT and Kenne Belle SGT for the cycle! I will be looking for these cars in Jan at the BB. Oh yea, while Im at it. I will need a 605HP SS and and a GT500KR. I think that will get most of the SAI and Ford factory Mustangs done. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroDan Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 +10000 I will use these results to help me make my supercharger decision! Thanks guys!!! Me too. I believe Mac will do a noteworthy write up and I look forward to reading it! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobjshelbys Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 If you're in Colorado you're welcome to take my SGT/KB/automatic for a spirited spin. You do need to take conditions, especially altitude, into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 I have two solid offers for seat time from two of our most respected members, Chip Beck and Jim Clark. Jim owns a Kenne Bell and Chip has the Whipple. This will require some travel to San Diego and Scottsdale, but I'm thinking now that maybe we could hook up at CS86? (if you two are attending), along with anyone else who wishes to join in. Needless to say, gents, this won't happen overnight, please be patient. I could leave Chicago tomorrow if I didn't have commitments through 20 Oct. 2008. Dan...I read your post half a dozen times now, and I understand many of your points. You're not spoiling anything for me, in fact your comments are momentum forward. Yes, it is difficult to pave a level playing field in comparasion, but I'm not looking to have the last word on the topic. I like the idea of an independent review by an unskilled observer. While I have my talents, training and experience based in my past adventures, I am really just an end user here, just like everyone else. Consider this, Dan, I spent my adult life collecting evidence and presenting that to a court of law. I made observations at a crime scene, took witness and victim statements, photographs, and scooped up material data for presentation up to and including death penalty cases. It wasn't my job to convict anyone of a crime, just present what I found in my investigation, and let the court decide. In this project, the TS membership is the court. Some cases garnered public attention, with awards to the police on the case and I earned over 175 awards before retiring. None of them involved my personal bias, either for or against the defendant. Yes, it's true that I (from time to time) held some personal bias for the defendant (scumbag) to be punished for his/her crimes, but in no way did I allow that to permeate my presentation of facts. If I didn't have the evidence I needed for a solid conviction, the defendant would not be facing charges...Period. Moreover, throughout those years, I drove a lot of police cars at some very high speeds in city traffic. They were not Shelbys, but they were not civilian cars either. I own and race two Legends 600 race cars, a '36 Ford and a '40 Ford (my fav) 80-90 MPH on a straight doesn't sound fast, but it's dangerously fast in the turns of a 3/8 mile oval. Thus, I fully (and honestly) believe I am very qualified to present a "view from the passenger seat" for our membership here. I have some test tools I will use to determine some important conditions, as well as a lot of seat time in fast cars, including 140 MHP for 30 minutes in LuLu. I've owned one Kenne Bell powered (2.3L) Ford product, and 3 Vortech (T-trim) powered. I've been offered a ProCharger (P1SC) kit, installed and tuned at a serious discount in exchange for an introduction to the SGT community, and I haven't taken the offer...Yet. You can say that I won't be easy to impress, or, sway in any one direction. Besides, this is mostly just for fun, and for our membership, no magazine article forthcoming. Be patient, gents, this will happen, but not tomorrow. Happy motoring, be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CudaFly Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Well Mac I'll throw my hat (helmet) into the ring. If you can make it to central Florida you can take my Shelby Paxton supercharged car for a few runs in the ¼ mile at the local track (any Wednesday or Friday night). Daytona and Sebring are an hour drive away also. It's a daily driver so I'm still keeping the power numbers within a sane threshold. Pulled a 12.03 @ 119 mph last Friday night and that was with 75 degree outside temperature. I'm fairly certain I'll be in the 11's once we drop another 10-15 degrees. I have seen several late model supercharged Mustang GT's (roots, centrifugal, various brands/sizes) and GT 500's (stock and modified) that are running significantly slower. Different drivers, different suspension setups, lots of variables and hard to compare. There are also a couple of modified GT500's that can run low 11's with street tires with trap speeds in the 130's so just when you think you have a really fast car there are plenty of people out there that are waaaay faster. There are better drivers and faster cars but nobody is having more fun. Anyway, I can also provide some information on the Paxton install experience, cost, pluses and minuses, etc... Let's see…Vegas, Scottsdale, and Orlando versus dead of winter in Chicago… Sounds like a pretty good gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofastguy Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Chip, you are to be commended for putting this idea in motion! Mac, you are probably the most objective (and believable) person to do the evaluation imo! This is going to be interesting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68fastback Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Dan, "Believe" would be the operative word here. On the Shelby GT I am biased towards centrfugals because of their historical connection to Shelby Mustang's and because the stock strut tower brace can remain in place. But I purchased a Whipple because I like the immediate response I get from a similar type supercharger on my Ford GT. But I haven't had a chance to drive every single system nor do I know anybody who has. Perhaps Mac does "believe" that centrifugals are the best and I "believe" that the Whipple is best. That's why I want to put this comparison together. After driving them all he may conclude that we are both wrong and that the Kenny Bell is the hot set up. If Mac was really that biased toward centrifugals he would own one. This isn't a life or death situation so I wouldn't take this project to task quite so quickly. As a non-SC-owner and unquestionably dyed in the wool Shelby GT fanatic, can you think of a better person than Mac to take this on? First, he doesn't have a dog in this fight nor has he yet driven all the different systems on the 4.6L 3-valve engine. Second, once he has driven them I can assure you he will report what he likes and doesn't like about each one of them. Mac and I have had a couple strenuous differences of opinion, we don't always agree, but he calls them like he sees them. He will not have a superior experience with one system and then slam it because of some prior bias toward a system he doesn't even own. Finally, while this site possesses a number of members with technical expertise, it is difficult to write in a coherent fashion a usable summary that combines that expertise with the experience of the testing one has just conducted. Mac is both able, willing, and has no ax to grind. Buying a supercharger is expensive and they have to be purchased without a test drive as they are nothing but a bunch of parts in boxes. You can't go to local dealership and go for a spin in four or five different models. Each system will increase performance and will probably satisfy its new owner. But if we could have test driven each system before making a decision, I bet some people would have chosen differently. I don't dispute your contention that many variables come into play and a perfect comparison is impossible. But if you allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good, you would be contending that every automobile test drive ever taken is invalid. This hobby and this website exists for the entertainment, education, and good fellowship of its members. Take what you see written here in that spirit of enjoyment and use it or reject it as you see fit. All the best. Chip I agree Chip... pardon my frustration. This sport is all about experimenting and sharing and I certainly didn't mean to sound negative (and was fearful my comments might sound that way). I agree Mac would do his very best at an excellent comparo (that's why I said: Not saying you would not do a fair comparo -- I believe you would try your very best you can). I guess another consideration is that you never know what may come out of a venture until you engage it. Sounds like a bunch of fun to be had too! Just a thought, MM&FF mag just might be interested in doing an article on this comparo -- dunno, but it would seem to have broad appeal in the Mustang community ...just a thought. Evan Smith would be the guy to talk to, I would think. If interested, they may be able to secure track time and open up other doors for y'all too. Best wishes... -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipBeck Posted October 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 If you're in Colorado you're welcome to take my SGT/KB/automatic for a spirited spin. Another most interesting combination. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 07, I would love to have that car in the comparison. Chip I'm in, gave Mac my contact information yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmoore Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I would love to read the final results!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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