How Likely Is Bankruptcy For Big Three?

[gradona]

As Parts dept. Manager at a Ford dealership I can tell you that most likely very little of the Mustang is "Made in America". Most of the parts on my shelves have the Country of Origin and I really have to search to find a USA sticker anymore.

[LuisA]

As Parts dept. Manager at a Ford dealership I can tell you that most likely very little of the Mustang is "Made in America". Most of the parts on my shelves have the Country of Origin and I really have to search to find a USA sticker anymore.

 

Agree.......and some of the Toyota's we buy are built in USA by Americans......and a LOT of Toyota's stocks are owned by Americans. So, the fact that Ford originated in the US and Toyota in Japan; doesn't necesarely makes them in 2008 American or Japanese companies.

 

Is Mazda Japanese? Is Jaguar British? Was Chrysler always American? Is it now?

[ShelbyDude]

SD,

I think you miss my point. Just because the car's final assembly is in US doesn't mean that the stuff that goes into it is from the US!

 

Ford an American owned company? How do you know? How can you make that statement? Ford is a public Company and as such anyone can have stocks. It would be real interesting to know how much of Ford stocks is owned by foreign folks and foreign companies.

 

I support American made products and try to buy them as often as I can........but, go to the mall and try to buy a pair of shoes made in the US, or a shirt.

 

In my view, the US will maintain it's world supremacy for as long as it produces the food to feed the world; but sadly, even in thsi arena, we are doing everything we can to "export" our food production elsewhere.

 

In today's world I do not think you will ever get a car 100% built in X country.......like it used to be. Buying an American branded car doesn't guarantee you anything!

 

 

No, I'm not missing your point. I think you are missing the point.

 

You are basically saying, hey...since they are assembling cars with parts made from all over the world then it really isn't American made and all the profits don't stay here.

 

Lets go back in time.

 

Once upon a time most everything made by American companies was made here.

 

So why did this change? Because WE forced this change onto our American companies.

 

We have tougher regulations here and people here expect to earn decent wages. At the same time we as a people are CHEAP and if a foreign product gets imported here that we can buy for less money we turn our backs on our own American companies by buying the cheaper products just to save a buck! Then we blame it on the American companies by saying they need to build their products not only better, but at competitive prices if they expect us to buy them. HOW??? How can they do that when people here won't work for those lower wages and our government slaps all the BS regulations on our American companies here driving their costs through the roof???

 

We want to get paid the big bucks for working here but we refuse to support our companies by buying their products so they can stay in business in order to provide those better paying jobs to us.

 

Then they started hiring illegals that would cross the border and work for less. We complained about that how they were taking away our jobs because we would not work for those wages. So we passed laws to put a stop to that.

 

In the end WE as a people drove all our industry away forcing them out of business, or forcing them to build plants in other countries, or forcing them to buy parts from foreign companies because it was cheaper to get their end products to market just to be able to survive and compete with the foreign companies doing business here. WE are the ones that did this to our American owned businesses.

 

Do you think this will now stop here with just buying parts from all over the world? We lost most of our big industries to foreign companies already because we as a people are CHEAP and turned our backs on them for the sake of saving a dollar by buying foreign products!

 

This will never stop until eventually every single American owned industry is driven out of business. Everyone one them will eventually be gone! Whether it be they are closing down completely or selling out to a foreign company. Then the foreign companies can come in taking them over, paying everyone lower wages, less benefits, less retirement, all while they get to send all their profits back to their country tax free!

 

How can any American company compete with that? Our government refuses to level the playing field by taxing these foreign companies that import their products here. They give them more tax breaks to get them to build plants here while giving nothing to our American companies.

 

WE are the ones that did this. We are the ones responsible. In the end we will be the ones crying. WHAT HAPPENED??? How can our government let this happen? WE LET IT HAPPEN!

 

So what do we do? Do we WAKE UP and try to do something about it or do we just continue on with the BS excuses to justify buying foreign products just so we can save a buck??? Is saving that buck today worth the great sacrafice Americans are going to make by losing our decent paying jobs to lower paying jobs with less benefits and less retirement???

 

What happens after everyone is earning a lot less? Prices keep going up. People can't afford to pay their bills now. If you think things are bad now just wait! This is only the tip of the iceberg. You ain't seen nothing yet! This is going to be the end of the middle class. How are we as a nation going to function without a middle class and most Americans working in poverty???

 

The writing is all over the wall and we are to blind to see it. But its coming and only we are the ones to blame for it. We allowed it to happen.

 

Are you getting this yet?

[Cobramach1]

Once again ShelbyDude, a great post!

[DubbsFaris]

Hey there,

 

This American Made vs Foreign Made controversy is a tough one at best. At some point in the future, I will have to purchase something (4 door) that gets good gas mileage (ie: 30+ MPG). I have to say, I cant think of one American made car (whatever that is - but I mean Ford, GM, Chrysler) that I would have ANY interest in at all. None of them have any appeal for me. They are all pretty bland/plain looking. If the big US 3 auto makers would step it up in terms of design on good mileage cars, I think things would start to turn around for them. MAYBE its just me.

 

As for things other than cars - like others have said, its pretty hard anymore to find things that are 100% American made. The world is changing (and has been for at least the last 15+ years).

 

Page

 

I kinda like the Chevy Volt- if it actually gets produced!!

 

 

More value for the buck? HARDLY! There is no more value than what you get in American cars.

 

Resale better? It's a WASH in the end.

 

You pay MORE when you buy them which is why you get more when you sell or trade them. The difference is in the rebates you get on American cars VS little to no rebates on the foreign cars. Rebates hurt resale value, but in the end when you figure in the rebate amounts the difference between them works out to be the same.

 

So the question is, do you want to keep more of your money NOW or wait to get that part of it back later when you go to sell or trade it in?

 

I'd take keeping more of my money NOW rather than worrying about getting it back later.

 

Lets compare the Focus VS Corolla for example.

 

Both compareable models with a MSRP at $17K

 

You pay $17K to buy the Corolla today.

 

You pay about $13,500 for the Focus today.

 

You KEEP $3,500 of your money NOW by buying the Focus, and get a better car to boot!

 

Later you go to sell or trade the Corolla and the Focus. How much difference is there between the two in resale value??? About $2,000. Corolla brings $2,000 more but you saved $3,500 at the time of purchase when you bought the Focus.

 

So where is the better resale value??? You paid a few grand MORE for the Corolla when you bought it and you are merely getting that extra you paid back when you go to sell it. Assuming you are selling or trading it within 3 years otherwise you don't get back that much.

 

So for VALUE the American made cars offer more bang for the buck because of the bigger rebates available. If they didn't have those rebates they would bring higher resale values just like the foreign cars. It is the rebates that hurt resale value, not the vehicle itself.

 

Funny how people like to compare their resale value to what the MSRP was VS what they actually paid!

 

Sorry, but better fuel efficient is another MYTH! You are basing that off inflated estimates on the window stickers! Did you KNOW that Toyota use to based their highway miles based on driving 45 mph VS the 65 mph the American manufacturers based their mileage on??? When you are basing mileage off driving highway speeds 20 mph below the speed limit of course the mileage would be better! But the truth is that was all flawed by Toyota!

 

Better quality??? Another MYTH! Toyota's quality is no better and never has been.

 

The misperception on that is because there is a difference class of people that always bought Toyota VS American made. Toyota buyers for the most part are higher income buyers, They have disposable incomes which allows them to properly maintain their cars where American car buyers for the most part are lower income, have NO disposable income and can not afford to take proper care of their car. They just drive them until something breaks! Anyone with any common sense knows that if you don't properly maintain a piece of machinery that it is going to breakdown sooner. Toyota buyers bring their cars into the dealer for all routine scheduled maintenance. American car buyers NEVER bring their cars in. They struggle just to make the payments and don't have the disposable incomes to pay for proper routine maintenance.

 

This isn't theory. This is FACT! We have Ford-BMW-Toyota. We see what comes through our service department everyday. All Toyota and BMW vehicles are mostly coming in just for regular maintenance. Most Ford's are coming in that people have racked tons of miles up and they were NEVER brought in for maintenance. A lot of them haven't even had the oil changed regularly! Ford buyers = HARD DRIVEN MILES vs Toyota-BMW buyers = EASY DRIVEN MILES!

 

Of the small percentage of American car buyers that do have disposable incomes and that do properly maintain their cars and change their oil regularly you rarely ever see their cars breaking down. They run and perform just as good if not better than any Toyota car that was properly maintained.

 

That leaves manufacturer recalls. Guess what? TOYOTA has had more recalls than Ford and GM. Toyota had the most recalls over any other manufacturer. Now how can that be if their quality is better???

 

So what made Toyota #1? A lot of MYTH and misperceptions the general public has about their product being better. Along with a bias press that has always praised Toyota and done nothing but give bad press about the American manufacturers.

 

You don't beieve that? Then explain why you never see any bad press on all the recalls Toyota has had? Why do you always see full front page ads about every little thing on the Amercan manufacturers and if they ever do run anything about Toyota that is bad they bury it in a small article buried inside the paper somewhere where most people will never see it and they only run it that one time VS being front page news for a weeks at a time like they do to the American manufacturers? How do you explain that?

 

People tend to believe anything the press tells them. THAT is what made Toyota number one.

 

Here is a typical Ford buyer VS Toyota buyer at our dealership.

 

Ford buyer: Yeah, I want to buy a new Focus. No problem, we have 15 in stock. Which one do you like? Well, none of those. I want this color, with these options and I don't want those options. OK, we'll try to find you one. OK, but I don't want to pay anything over invoice and I want the $2500 rebate off that and would really like the 0% with that. I have a 550 FICO!

 

Toyota buyer. Yeah, I want a blue Corolla with these options. Sorry, I don't have any blue. I only have this pink with purple polka dots and it doesn't have the options you want. OK, I'll take it! Customer pulls out checkbook and writes a check for full sticker!

 

Other than the polka dots, this is no exageration! We could have monkeys as sales people on our Toyota lot and they would sell just as many as they do now!

 

People believe what the press tells them. If the press says it is so then it must be so. So they buy what the press tells them is better. In spite of the fact Toyota leads as number one in total recalls, and that ALL cars regardless of who made them today will last just as long as any other car WHEN they are properly maintained, people do not know any difference and just believes what they read in the press.

 

Im not sure your logic holds water Shelbydude- you can put whatever number manipulation on it you want, it just makes you a great salesman, not right necessarily.

 

Also- man, I wouldn't exactly say you are being fair and non partial in your arguments....The dealerships I have been to have MANY options and LOTS of vehicles...

 

You just sound kinda bitter that people are willing to pay for a Toyota!

 

When it gets hard to sell a Ford or GM, and you have every incentive, every option, and all those vehicles

And as your statement put it- Toyota has hardly any on the lot, selling at sticker...what does that tell you? Make vehicles that people want!

 

And the MPG myth you talk about- My 5.7L 4X4 Tundra gets 18 MPG, city driving- best I ever got in my suburban was 12...13 over a long flat trip

 

The press? build quality, customer brainwashing- I mean really, that is laying it on pretty thick...

 

I know you are a Ford dealer and it just bites that the competition is putting out better vehicle quality overall, but we ALL bought the GT500, and if Ford or Chevy would continue to make high quality, muscle cars, sport cars, luxury trucks...and all the cool vehicles people would want to own, it wouldn't be as bad as you are seeing it.

 

The problem with Ford is they NEVER addressed the Corvette... I waited on Ford for 20 years to answer....NOTHING

They made a great truck- the Lightning- but discontinued that...and almost closed the SVT all together!

 

Ford has it in their heads that people dont want vettes, or anything like that...and it is much better to build vanilla than try to wow the market with something new.

 

Ford has relied on the F150 since forever, and that is just bad business strategy.

 

No, the reason they build plants in Mexico and buy parts from all over the world is because they are forced into doing that because of higher costs here. They have much higher costs here than what their foreign competitors have that sell cars here.

 

If the foreign manufacturers had to pay the same union scales, benefits, retirements, and didn't get the all the tax breaks, then the American companies could build more plants here, make more parts here, keep more people employed here and better our economy here.

 

 

So while there is SOME money being spent on foreign parts, building plants in Mexico, etc....at the end of the day when it is all said and done any PROFITS made stay in the US.

 

And while Toyota builds plants here and provides jobs to people here, the American companies are laying off employees that were being paid higher wages, better benefits, better retirements. Kind of like robbing from the rich to give to the poor. Only we are taking middle class Americans, doing away with their jobs and replacing them with Americans to come in and work for a lot less wages, benefits and retirements.

 

If the American people refused to buy anything other than products and services from American owned companies there would not be a global economy. There were be more jobs here, there would be more plants built here, there would be more parts made here, there would be less unemployment, we would have a booming economy. Foreign companies that wanted to import any products here would be taxed on those products, there would not be any special tax breaks for them, the government would make sure the playing field was level, instead of turning their backs on American companies while giving special interest to foreign companies.

 

So for now the only thing that is left is that for the moment we still have American owned companies. Any profits they earn stay here regardless of where they buy their parts, assemble their products or build their plants.

 

If you don't want them buying foreign parts, building plants outside the US, then step up and support those American companies so they don't have to. Otherwise we will ALL be working for foreign owned companies in the near future and we ALL will be forced to take big pay cuts, lose benefits, and have no retirements.

 

Even though you may not be in a union, you are not protected from losing your jobs to some foreign company. No matter what profession you are in this country needs the middle class to keep ALL businesses prospering. Take away the middle class and everyone loses! That is exactly what is happening here.

 

You may get through it OK in your remaining life time, but your kids won't if we as a people don't change it!

 

So when you buy something ask yourself, where do the PROFITS go??? Who's future is most important to me? My kids and grandkids or the kids and grandkids in a foreign country???

 

Their future is in our hands today! Don't sell them out and don't sell their country out from under them. We have Americans dying to protect our country while we sit at home selling off our country piece by piece. What is wrong with that picture?

 

Umm, That money you are keeping here- The closest you'll ever get to it, is if you go down to the Bahamas, you can wave to the Yachts floating by, and take pictures! Money hoarding by the people at the very top prevents trickle down economics anyway.

 

I know a TON of really RICH people, and the one truth I have found time and time again-

 

RULE NUMBER 1. The MORE you have, the LESS you spend.

 

and that is a fact!

 

Toyota is a public company, just like Ford. You wanna put money in American pockets- start a business, or invest wisely. You can put money anywhere in the world and make a profit, and the best part is, it comes right back here to you! I have made the bulk of my money playing stock trends in the rest of the world that our exchange realized years ago. You find the triggers and wait for right situations, you can BANK!!

 

If I bought 10 Tundras, it is still less than what I have made off of the Asia markets alone!

 

 

 

You have been manipulated my friend- you have been told that there is a war, that you are selling out your country to a company, but there are no companies, no countries, ONLY currency. Stopping money and jobs from flowing out of this country is like taking water out of the sink with your hand. It isn't going to stop.

 

There is only ONE thing that will bring our country down, and that is lack of research and development.

 

Because our education level is on the decline compared to the rest of the world, we are in danger of falling off the top.

Our country's greatness is due to trend-setting, finding things first, or developing better methods of production and manufacture.

 

The car was first mass produced here...

The computer was first produced here...(for the masses)

 

We must look beyond to continue our greatness, it wont be found by sitting on our duffs and counting on old companies to keep us afloat.

 

I really like you, Shelbydude, don't read out of this post anything but mutual respect and a little bit of differing opinion. It is the lawyer in me!

[CH53Driver]

I've finally realized it, SD is an isolationist!

[ShelbyDude]

I kinda like the Chevy Volt- if it actually gets produced!!

 

 

 

 

Im not sure your logic holds water Shelbydude- you can put whatever number manipulation on it you want, it just makes you a great salesman, not right necessarily.

 

Also- man, I wouldn't exactly say you are being fair and non partial in your arguments....The dealerships I have been to have MANY options and LOTS of vehicles...

 

You just sound kinda bitter that people are willing to pay for a Toyota!

 

When it gets hard to sell a Ford or GM, and you have every incentive, every option, and all those vehicles

And as your statement put it- Toyota has hardly any on the lot, selling at sticker...what does that tell you? Make vehicles that people want!

 

And the MPG myth you talk about- My 5.7L 4X4 Tundra gets 18 MPG, city driving- best I ever got in my suburban was 12...13 over a long flat trip

 

The press? build quality, customer brainwashing- I mean really, that is laying it on pretty thick...

 

I know you are a Ford dealer and it just bites that the competition is putting out better vehicle quality overall, but we ALL bought the GT500, and if Ford or Chevy would continue to make high quality, muscle cars, sport cars, luxury trucks...and all the cool vehicles people would want to own, it wouldn't be as bad as you are seeing it.

 

 

You are comparing a truck to a large SUV for gas mileage??? LOL

 

I guess you should have bought the Expedition instead. My dad is getting 21 highway on his 06 Expedition.

 

18 on the Tundra? You must be the only one. You sure you figuring that correctly? From what UI'm hearing from customers that bought them they are saying they get under 10 on their new Tundra!

 

There is no magic number here to manipulate anything. You can look it up yourself. Go look up a 3 year old Corolla and Focus. See what the trade value is on them. Then add the $2500 rebate you would have got on the Focus at the time of purchase plus the $800 - $1000 discount off MSRP you would have got. After you add that to whatever the trade value is on the Focus then see how that compares to what the trade value is on the Corolla. You're a lawyer, so you should be able to do that accurately. LOL

 

PLEASE explain to me exactly what it is that Toyota has that makes their vehicle better quality??? Lots of people like to throw that around as a general statement but I have yet to see anyone explain exactly what quailty they are talking about. Since you're a lawyer surely you can explain it.

 

So what exactly does the Corolla offer that is better quality over the Focus? Same with the Camry over the Fusion? Same with the Avalon over the Taurus? Same with the Tundra over the F150?

 

Please explain what is better in quality?

 

And what do they have that is better in design and looks and that make any of those more FUN to drive over the Fords? They are all just as boring to me!

 

BTW....we are a Ford-BMW-Toyota dealer. We sell all 3 brands here. I can sell any of them. So there is no need to manipulate anything.

 

We are out of Focus just as much as Toyota is out of Corolla's here. So it isn't because they are selling better. ALL small cars regardless of brands are flying off lots right now because of gas prices. None of us can get enough.

 

And our Tundra's aren't selling either. And toyota has pretty big rebates on them. So much for quality and great product, eh?

[ShelbyDude]

I've finally realized it, SD is an isolationist!

 

 

Nah....I don't have a problem with foreign companies importing their products here or building plants here as long as the playing field is level so the American companies can at least compete fairly.

 

If they are going to import products here then they should be taxed on those products to where they are competitively priced with American made products here. They shouldn't be allowed the loopholes because they allow slave labor workers in their country that allows them to make their products at a fraction of the cost and undercut our companies here.

 

If they want to build plants here that is fine. No tax breaks, all their profits here are subject to the same tax liability, all the employees required to be paid the same pay scales and provided the same benefits and retirements as our American companies have to pay.

 

See what happens then! :happy feet:

[Glenracer]

Nah....I don't have a problem with foreign companies importing their products here or building plants here as long as the playing field is level so the American companies can at least compete fairly.

 

If they are going to import products here then they should be taxed on those products to where they are competitively priced with American made products here. They shouldn't be allowed the loopholes because they allow slave labor workers in their country that allows them to make their products at a fraction of the cost and undercut our companies here.

 

If they want to build plants here that is fine. No tax breaks, all their profits here are subject to the same tax liability, all the employees required to be paid the same pay scales and provided the same benefits and retirements as our American companies have to pay.

 

See what happens then! :happy feet:

No tax breaks, no free land to build plants on, same wages as everyone else....seems fair to me.

But you have to ask yourself....If GM, Ford, or Chrysler were to go bankrupt (which I doubt) I wonder....who would it hurt the most? I think it would be Americans, since they are American companies and they have more plants in the US than anyone. There needs to be a difinitive description on the quality issue. rolling a ball bearing down the seam between the hood and fender is not a quality issue as long as it isn't 3 inches wide and I have never seen that and do you know of anyone that really bases his decision on buying a domestic or import on whether you can actually stick your finger between the crash pad and the door panel? See, all this stuff is inconsequential when it come to what the true definition of quality really is. I have never had my domestic leave me beside the road....ever. But I will be honest and tell you that I have had to bring my car in for warranty work. Ok problem fixed. Somewhere along the line GM, Ford and Chrysler built some duds in the past but so did Toyota, Honda and Nissan. I remember those imports being notorious rust buckets but they got better...and so did GM, Ford and Chrysler. They all did but somebody forgot to tell the public that. By everyones very presence here indicates to me that you folks are not fools when it comes to the automotive world...regardless of your opinion. But it just seems to me that there are those who rejoice in the fact that the car companies in the US are in trouble. Why? I guess many factors but I guess I am too old to change now. I simply cannot feature driving anything made in Japan.

[shelbytexan]

Agree. i have 2 honda's and a Shelby GT and Dodge PU.25 or 30 years ago the big three built garbage when building small cars and trucks.The best thing Japan has done for us is make us build much better vehicles than we use to make. The big three got the message and we are much more competive with our quality. Our prices have always been less and still are but there is a lot of loyalty to the foreign cars in this country. I could have bought foreign muscle but it just doesn't ring out like American muscle. We need to charge the same tax on cars coming to this country as they charge us. I also think the same wages and benefits should be provided to our American workers here building cars for Nissan,Toyota,Honda and VW. We have certainly made these foreign countries rich so the least they could do would be to provide the American workers the same benefits that the Big Three provide.Our quality is now very close to the foreign cars and with our prices less and in some instances much less i believe many people including myself will be taking a look at the Big Three and what they have to offer.If someone is going to go bankrupt then i would certainly rather it be Japan companies than American.

[ShelbyDude]

Bankruptcy or not. The fact is they are eliminating tens of thousands of jobs. More jobs are being eliminated than new jobs being made by foreign plants. And even if the foreign plants could make up for all the jobs being lost by the big three they are being paid a lot less for the same line of work. How is that better?

[DubbsFaris]

Well, Ford has been pretty good for me, actually, my old 87 escort never had a serious problem.

My '93 mustang had to replace the tranny and some electronic piece on the distributor...no biggie

 

My suburban I spent more on service than it cost me...

 

All of my Lexus's put together- over 500k and not one problem on any of them...

I did buy the company an RX300 that had a sludge proble, but was fixed gratis...

 

The numbers thing I was just pointing out that your new vehicle prices on the corolla and the fusion are your figures, but not what people are paying in either case for sure. Some would get worse deals, some better, but like Polo shirts, or Rolex watches, Corolla has a better name. I dont know why you choose Fusion. How long have they made those? Like 5 minutes? I wouldn't drive a corolla if you gave me one...I wouldn't drive a Fusion if you gave me one...resale prices depend on how bad the dealer is gonna stick you when you trade-in. I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS with 25k miles, and Carmax offered me 7k. I got 10,500.00 from Lexus. That is a pretty big difference...KBB had it valued at 12,500, but no dealer is gonna give you blue book anyway. They are gonna stick you on the trade in or the new purchase or if you are my trusting grandmother who has no money, both...its okay, no attack here. You guys are in business to make money, not give away cars.

 

I have to compare the suburban to my truck, cuz its the first truck I have ever owned. But its a Crewmax, and it is REALLY big...

 

If you go to the tundrasolutions or other tundra forums, the 07 up gets around 18 mpg city...some are getting well over 20 on highway, but I ve only had a short time and no trips yet. If someone is getting 10mgp, they need to take it back RIGHT AWAY...and you are a toyota dealership- you should already know this...I just have to question your motives now if you sell toyotas. Your hatred of them seems to me like it would go against every principle you have to sell one...do you lie about how good they are if there is a sale in it for you? If you have a problem with people buying "foreign", do you not have a problem with people, like you, SELLING foreign? Aren't you part of your very problem? Not that I have a problem with you selling toyotas- dont get me wrong. In fact, if I had known you or MM sell Toyotas, I would have called you first!

 

my truck does go 1/4 mile in just a hair over 14 seconds though...Imagine that!

faster than a stock gt (previous body)

[LuisA]

I kinda like the Chevy Volt- if it actually gets produced!!

 

 

 

 

Im not sure your logic holds water Shelbydude- you can put whatever number manipulation on it you want, it just makes you a great salesman, not right necessarily.

 

Also- man, I wouldn't exactly say you are being fair and non partial in your arguments....The dealerships I have been to have MANY options and LOTS of vehicles...

 

You just sound kinda bitter that people are willing to pay for a Toyota!

 

When it gets hard to sell a Ford or GM, and you have every incentive, every option, and all those vehicles

And as your statement put it- Toyota has hardly any on the lot, selling at sticker...what does that tell you? Make vehicles that people want!

 

And the MPG myth you talk about- My 5.7L 4X4 Tundra gets 18 MPG, city driving- best I ever got in my suburban was 12...13 over a long flat trip

 

The press? build quality, customer brainwashing- I mean really, that is laying it on pretty thick...

 

I know you are a Ford dealer and it just bites that the competition is putting out better vehicle quality overall, but we ALL bought the GT500, and if Ford or Chevy would continue to make high quality, muscle cars, sport cars, luxury trucks...and all the cool vehicles people would want to own, it wouldn't be as bad as you are seeing it.

 

The problem with Ford is they NEVER addressed the Corvette... I waited on Ford for 20 years to answer....NOTHING

They made a great truck- the Lightning- but discontinued that...and almost closed the SVT all together!

 

Ford has it in their heads that people dont want vettes, or anything like that...and it is much better to build vanilla than try to wow the market with something new.

 

Ford has relied on the F150 since forever, and that is just bad business strategy.

 

 

 

Umm, That money you are keeping here- The closest you'll ever get to it, is if you go down to the Bahamas, you can wave to the Yachts floating by, and take pictures! Money hoarding by the people at the very top prevents trickle down economics anyway.

 

I know a TON of really RICH people, and the one truth I have found time and time again-

 

RULE NUMBER 1. The MORE you have, the LESS you spend.

 

and that is a fact!

 

Toyota is a public company, just like Ford. You wanna put money in American pockets- start a business, or invest wisely. You can put money anywhere in the world and make a profit, and the best part is, it comes right back here to you! I have made the bulk of my money playing stock trends in the rest of the world that our exchange realized years ago. You find the triggers and wait for right situations, you can BANK!!

 

If I bought 10 Tundras, it is still less than what I have made off of the Asia markets alone!

 

 

 

You have been manipulated my friend- you have been told that there is a war, that you are selling out your country to a company, but there are no companies, no countries, ONLY currency. Stopping money and jobs from flowing out of this country is like taking water out of the sink with your hand. It isn't going to stop.

 

There is only ONE thing that will bring our country down, and that is lack of research and development.

 

Because our education level is on the decline compared to the rest of the world, we are in danger of falling off the top.

Our country's greatness is due to trend-setting, finding things first, or developing better methods of production and manufacture.

 

The car was first mass produced here...

The computer was first produced here...(for the masses)

 

We must look beyond to continue our greatness, it wont be found by sitting on our duffs and counting on old companies to keep us afloat.

 

I really like you, Shelbydude, don't read out of this post anything but mutual respect and a little bit of differing opinion. It is the lawyer in me!

 

Good post DB!

 

Agree with everything you said, specially your R&D statement, but also, in history, all other great wold power, like the Romans, who dominated the world for 800 years, failed because LACK OF FOOD! AND in this arena we are still #1....lets make sure it stays that way!!!!!!

 

SD, you also make some good points and I respect that....but, why are folks willing to pay over MSRP for an X6 and Ford/Chevy can't give their SUV's away? Think about it!

[ShelbyDude]

Well, Ford has been pretty good for me, actually, my old 87 escort never had a serious problem.

My '93 mustang had to replace the tranny and some electronic piece on the distributor...no biggie

 

My suburban I spent more on service than it cost me...

 

All of my Lexus's put together- over 500k and not one problem on any of them...

I did buy the company an RX300 that had a sludge proble, but was fixed gratis...

 

The numbers thing I was just pointing out that your new vehicle prices on the corolla and the fusion are your figures, but not what people are paying in either case for sure. Some would get worse deals, some better, but like Polo shirts, or Rolex watches, Corolla has a better name. I dont know why you choose Fusion. How long have they made those? Like 5 minutes? I wouldn't drive a corolla if you gave me one...I wouldn't drive a Fusion if you gave me one...resale prices depend on how bad the dealer is gonna stick you when you trade-in. I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS with 25k miles, and Carmax offered me 7k. I got 10,500.00 from Lexus. That is a pretty big difference...KBB had it valued at 12,500, but no dealer is gonna give you blue book anyway. They are gonna stick you on the trade in or the new purchase or if you are my trusting grandmother who has no money, both...its okay, no attack here. You guys are in business to make money, not give away cars.

 

I have to compare the suburban to my truck, cuz its the first truck I have ever owned. But its a Crewmax, and it is REALLY big...

 

If you go to the tundrasolutions or other tundra forums, the 07 up gets around 18 mpg city...some are getting well over 20 on highway, but I ve only had a short time and no trips yet. If someone is getting 10mgp, they need to take it back RIGHT AWAY...and you are a toyota dealership- you should already know this...I just have to question your motives now if you sell toyotas. Your hatred of them seems to me like it would go against every principle you have to sell one...do you lie about how good they are if there is a sale in it for you? If you have a problem with people buying "foreign", do you not have a problem with people, like you, SELLING foreign? Aren't you part of your very problem? Not that I have a problem with you selling toyotas- dont get me wrong. In fact, if I had known you or MM sell Toyotas, I would have called you first!

 

my truck does go 1/4 mile in just a hair over 14 seconds though...Imagine that!

faster than a stock gt (previous body)

 

 

I was comparing Focus to Corolla and Fusion to Camry.

 

The Corolla has ZERO rebates. The Focus typically $2500 rebates. That alone pretty much takes care of the resale difference.

 

The new vehicle prices aren't MY prices. Those are the prices set by the manufacturer, not me. Here at our dealership we normally would discount a Focus. They get MSRP on all the Corolla's here. The Honda dealer here in town is the same. They sell their cars for MSRP as well.

 

I know some areas like major metro areas where they might have 10 toyota dealers they might discount them. We don't have to here. Also, toyota has a lot more mark up in their cars than what Ford does. So they are a lot cheaper to make but Toyota prices them up there with what Ford prices their vehicles at MSRP for.

 

I said we are a Ford-BMW-Toyota dealer and that I "could" sell anyone of them. I didn't say "I" sell them. I rather not sell them and no I do not lie about anything. Actually I tell customers the Toyotas are a piece of shit compared to the Fords which they are, "in my opinion". So I try to talk them out of buying one. But if they insist I turn them over to a toyota salesperson even though I could sell them myself if I wanted to. I could make twice as much selling the toyotas over the Fords. But money isn't everything and I unlike some people like to sleep at night! So I'm not going to lie to anyone just for the sake of getting a sale.

 

You say you have never had a problem with your Lexus. Great! But how does that prove the quality is any better??? You got 500k miles combined from multiple Lexus you owned. Great! Would you like to hear aboyut the Ford's I see that come through here with well over 200K, 300K and 400K miles on them???

 

The point is, there is no better quality here as far as mechanical things go. They ALL will run forever if you properly take care of them. Especially vehicles made today.

 

Now if you want to get into quality of construction then toyota does not hold a candle to Ford. Ford leads in crash testing. Ford spends a lot more on building stronger frames, more steel support beams, and more saftey features.

 

If you ever seen what was under the skin of these cars you would know what I'm talking about.

 

Walk out to your Tundra and from the side of the bed grab the bed and start shaking back and forth. Watch how much that thing will shake back and forth. It feels like you could literally twist the frame by shaking it hard enough. Then walk up and try that on the F-150.

 

And if toyota has better quality then how is it they lead with number of recalls??? Toyota has had more recalls than anyone! So explain that?

[ShelbyDude]

Good post DB!

 

Agree with everything you said, specially your R&D statement, but also, in history, all other great wold power, like the Romans, who dominated the world for 800 years, failed because LACK OF FOOD! AND in this arena we are still #1....lets make sure it stays that way!!!!!!

 

SD, you also make some good points and I respect that....but, why are folks willing to pay over MSRP for an X6 and Ford/Chevy can't give their SUV's away? Think about it!

 

 

Actually, the X6 is buyers coming from other countries. A lot of the calls are brokers looking for them to export them out of the country. BMW will cut you off if they catch you selling these to brokers or anyone outside the US.

[DubbsFaris]

I had to reread some of your posts- I read over too fast to catch the whole camry, corolla, fusion, frenzy whatever you call them go kart comments....LOL

 

I couldn't give an educated response to the competition between those kind of vehicles...I was merely pointing out what you later said- you can get those cars below msrp...but then you make my point...

 

1. You guys cant give away Fords, and you sell Toyotas at list all day long.

2. Toyota makes the same class car for less but charge more...Isn't that the problem here? If Ford would charge more, maybe they wouldn't be in this mess...They didn't exactly get the Gt500 right on pricing...they make little, and dealers make a ton!

3. I guess if I ever have to drive my Tundra by shaking the bed, I'll trade it in on a 150, but I test drove all trucks...

Here is my take:

Dodge- Are you kidding me? If I wanted to play trucker with my CB, maybe a dodge is the choice...but they arent leading the pack in comfort or feel of drive

Chevy- I couldn't take another summer in a chevy air conditioned vehicle- they lost me with the suburban sweat box I had.

Ford- Ford was my second choice, and if I could have afforded a F650 or even a 550, I would have gone with Ford

I really like the King ranch F250

Toyota- It had me at HELLO- rear reclining seats, stops on a dime, 10100lbs towing, great acceleration, best handling of any truck I drove..

 

You work at a dealership, so you may know something I dont on the quality- it just seems like its almost too personal here with toyota for you...but I REALLY like my truck, and no problems yet. I didn't buy a Tundra in 07 because of what you specifically said before about them. But I have been on a bunch of other forums, and I just dont see that reflected everywhere else.

 

I will say- I never said Ford has poor quality...I WILL say Chevys are Chitty. Driving Lexus' you can tell a difference though...and I cant tell you why I think Lexus is high quality except from personal experience with 8 different vehicles. I also cant tell you WHY I think my wife is beautiful, but I can tell you I know she is! :happy feet:

 

And I wasn't calling you a liar, just pointing out dealerships that sell Ford in one showroom and Toyota in the one next door tells you one thing...the dealerships dont care where they make their money...What will you say when your GM opens a kiosk selling Smartcars in the empty lot next door?

 

Boy, I feel like we are doin the Federalist papers all over again!!

 

Go ask John Elway how much money he is willing to loose not having a Toyota dealership....

[ShelbyDude]

Go ask John Elway how much money he is willing to loose not having a Toyota dealership....

 

I thought Elway sold all his stores? Wasn't it like $800 million or something he got for the whole thing?

[DubbsFaris]

Go ask John Elway how much money he is willing to loose not having a Toyota dealership....

 

I thought Elway sold all his stores? Wasn't it like $800 million or something he got for the whole thing?

 

LOL- figures....I dont live in Denver anymore, so I missed that ...it still is named Elway though, right?

[formervettowner]

Bankruptcy or not. The fact is they are eliminating tens of thousands of jobs. More jobs are being eliminated than new jobs being made by foreign plants. And even if the foreign plants could make up for all the jobs being lost by the big three they are being paid a lot less for the same line of work. How is that better?

 

They would be eliminating jobs anyway even if sales were good. As workers retire all those jobs would not be replaced. All well run company needs to find better efficiencies which eliminate jobs. Unions were needed, but they have hurt them selves. Are they really worth what they are paid I think not. They should be paid a fair wage but not the wages that they receive. A few other trades that are hurting are union plumbers electricians steel workers. Auto mechanic few real journeyman they are now call techs. 12 bucks and hour.

 

Quality I am not going to get into the Toyota, Ford thing but lets look at the one car we all have in common Shelby gt 500. Roughly a $50,000 car that I really do love. QUALITY, Lets see cheap Plastic mirrors vs Painted. Cheap plastic door panels, interior speaker covers. A 1950s radio antena. Fold down your back seat and look at the plush 1/32 inch carpet, second thought don't because you will never get the seat back to the right position. Don't mess with your shift boot or it will come off. Driver seat is pretty good but the passenger seat, who cares we don't sit there. Ford says to these few issues we are trying to keep cost down. What for a few thousand more and really make this a flagship. Maybe it is the best they could do, but that says something about the company. Ford and the the other 2 could do a much better job sourcing materials and make their product better than anybody else at a price that Americans could afford. Look at Costco as an example of a well run business. fair wages good benefits happy employees, quality products.

[ShelbyDude]

LOL- figures....I dont live in Denver anymore, so I missed that ...it still is named Elway though, right?

 

 

Autonation bought him out in 1997 for $82.5 million. (I thought it was 800 million, but it was 82.5 million)

 

Autonation had kept the name but in Dec 2006 they changed the name to GO

 

Here is an article on it.

 

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_4751907

[shaker281]

What I find disturbing about this thread is the presumption that millions of people are foolishly buying foreign vehicles because they are too stupid to think for themselves and blithely follow the "liberal" media.

 

So here we are blaming the auto industries woes on the consumer for spending their hard earned dollar the way they want in our free market democratic society. This complete failure of the industry to take responsibility for their own troubles is the reason we are in this position right now. "Loyal" Americans playing apologist for the industry, and blaming the customer, is how they managed to ignore the threat of serious competition for over 30 years.

 

If buying foreign goods is treasonous, what about selling them? Personally, I would be disinclined to purchase anything from a person or company that tried to intimidate me by calling me a "traitor" for not buying their product. But thats just me!

 

If Alabama offers tax incentives or "free" land to encourage a company to build a factory in their locale and bring employment growth to their constituents, why would a company not consider that offer when making a decision? It is just another form of outsourcing designed to lure business from other states/locales. You can bet you a$$ Ford or GM would take the bait. I believe Saturn did.

 

American companies have made vast fortunes selling into foreign markets and still do. Ford would probably be bankrupt already if it were not for foreign sales. Does anyone really expect people in other countries to keep buying our products (GE, P&G, Microsoft, GM and thousands of others) when we start shunning their products? Slippery slope since most agree that the best opportunities for growth are in emerging markets.

 

I believe that American companies should quit blaming everyone but themselves when they are having difficulty competing. The world changes and we need to be nimble to survive. No one wants to accept the reality that we may need to adjust our standard of living. Who wants to be the first to give up comprehensive health care? Or skip raises for the next 3 years? Probably, no one. So, we need to use good ole American ingenuity to make our products better and produce them more efficiently.

 

But claiming it is the fault of the consumer or "unfair" competition has just allowed our industry to avoid taking ultimate responsibility for their own success and destiny.

[ShelbyDude]

Only one problem. It cost a lot more to build better quality here and most people are not willing to pay for that. So they will buy the cheapest product they can find.

 

Hyundia and KIA are perfect examples of that and soon it will be the Chinese cars that hit the market here.

 

This isn't about just the auto industry. It is about ALL businesses.

[shaker281]

Only one problem. It cost a lot more to build better quality here and most people are not willing to pay for that. So they will buy the cheapest product they can find.

 

Hyundia and KIA are perfect examples of that and soon it will be the Chinese cars that hit the market here.

 

This isn't about just the auto industry. It is about ALL businesses.

 

On this, I agree wholeheartedly. Many are not willing to pay for quality in the ever increasingly disposable world we live in. Sometime it is just too expensive tho (i.e. should I buy a house sided with wood & brick or cheap siding?). Mine is cedar and brick, but many cannot afford the added cost.

 

And yes, I believe this is about many industries. In fact, I feel your pain. The company I work for is an American icon that has been subjected to intense pressure from competition and downward pricing. We have shrunk considerably in the past 7 years. But, in the end I cannot blame our customers for buying cheaper, and in many cases, foreign products to meet their needs. If anything, our leadership is to blame for not reacting quickly and decisively to the challenges we faced. And many thousands of my coworkers paid the price for that failure to respond effectively.

[ff500]

Saleen gone, pennies on the dollar for everything including mustang gt's, rims , tooling equipment, forklifts, anything saleen is up for auction.

[RStangsOC]

Saleen gone, pennies on the dollar for everything including mustang gt's, rims , tooling equipment, forklifts, anything saleen is up for auction.

 

 

Liquidation of overstock.

 

From what I understand - Chris Theodore was just named new CEO of Saleen.

 

Still coming out with new parts and cars. Dont think they are going anywhere soon.

[ShelbyDude]

On this, I agree wholeheartedly. Many are not willing to pay for quality in the ever increasingly disposable world we live in. Sometime it is just too expensive tho (i.e. should I buy a house sided with wood & brick or cheap siding?). Mine is cedar and brick, but many cannot afford the added cost.

 

And yes, I believe this is about many industries. In fact, I feel your pain. The company I work for is an American icon that has been subjected to intense pressure from competition and downward pricing. We have shrunk considerably in the past 7 years. But, in the end I cannot blame our customers for buying cheaper, and in many cases, foreign products to meet their needs. If anything, our leadership is to blame for not reacting quickly and decisively to the challenges we faced. And many thousands of my coworkers paid the price for that failure to respond effectively.

 

 

The problem is inflation is growing more rapid than what the average income is. People are being priced out of the market with rising costs on everything.

 

Let me give an example by what I'm talking about.

 

Lets go back to the mid to late 70's. The middle class was made up of mostly union jobs of people working in the trades.

 

Electricians, pipefitters, boilermakers, etc.

 

Back in the mid to late 70's union scale was at $14 - $15 hour. Today it is about $30 hour. That is a 100% wage increase since the 70's.

 

Most things we buy today are up 600% - 800% over what you could have bought them for in the mid - late 70's.

 

With a 600% - 800% price increase on most products how can people survive when their income has only increased by 100% in comparison?

 

It use to be one person working to support the household while one spouse stayed home to take care of the kids. Now both spouses work and even if both have professional jobs earning the same union pay scales, that is only a 200% wage increase compared to the 600% - 800% price increases.

 

The cost of vehicles is up 800% + since then. The cost of buying a home is up 600% +

 

Example: In 1976 a brand new Lincoln Town Car MSRP was $6200. Today MSRP is over $50,000 ....over a 800% price increase.

 

In 1976 a new 3 bed model home was $29,900. Today that same house is $180K. Over 600% price increase.

 

Heck, look at gas???

 

Now many of those union scale jobs are being eliminated and some are being replaced with lower paying jobs doing the same work. They are being replaced with foreign company jobs at the sacrifice of taking away the higher paying American company jobs.

 

So while it is great that a foreign company comes here and builds a new plant in some area where people there really need those jobs and it puts those people to work, that is not great when that results in the expense of another American company having to eliminate the same jobs that were being paid a higher wage.

 

If these foreign companies had to come here and pay the same wages, benefits and retirements as the American companies are currently paying their employees then that would be a good thing for this country. But that is not what is happening here. What is happening is we are just trading jobs for much lower wages. We put a bunch of out of work people to work for a lot lower wage while at the same time we put a lot of working people out of work that were making higher wages doing the exact same line of work. How can anyone think that is a good thing?

 

If anything people need to make more money, not a lot less! This shift in the end is going to severely cripple our nation wiping out our middle class and putting most Americans into poverty. Sorry, but that is not a good thing. That is a very bad thing.

 

So now what? Well, lets just blame it on our government!!!

 

Yeah, the government is responsible for selling the American people out over this. BUT....we as a people ALLOWED our government to do this to us. WE as a people have been to blind to see what is really happening and we have been supporting this practice with our own wallets by buying up all these foreign products. We have justified doing this by making excuses that our American companies should be more competitive by building better quality and offering more competitive pricing if they want us to buy their products. Only one problem with this. IMPOSSIBLE!!! It can not be done when we allow our government to allow these foreign companies to keep coming here and paying lower wages, less benefits, less retirements, given huge tax advantages, allowed to import their products here without taxing them to the point where they have to be competitive with our American companies.

 

The unions are a part of the problem for higher costs as well. Not because of higher wages for those that do work, but because of their greed to protect the jobs of the deadbeats that don't want to work and the greed to insure their employees collect wages while sitting home when there is no work. Isn't that what unemployment is for? You can't expect a company to prosper if they are being forced to keep deadbeats on the payroll and pay full wages to employees that are laid off when things are slow. The unions wanted their money to keep rolling in so they did anything to insure these people get paid no matter what since the unions get paid x amount for every hour one of their members are paid. In the end they hurt themselves because now look? They are losing thousands of members to buy outs and in the end they will be wiped out completely. The American companies will be forced into filing BK just for the purpose of having to get rid of the unions so they can reorganize and be able to pay the same lower wages the foreign companies are paying their employees.

 

Is that a good thing for America??? Is that going to help our economy in the long run? It is going to cripple this country forcing people into poverty.

 

It is the middle class that is the backbone of our economy. It is the middle class that pays the most in taxes, spends the most in this country and when you wipe them out then where is the money going to come from? Who is going to buy anyone's products when the average American is broke living paycheck to paycheck and can barely pay their rent or mortgage and have no extra income to go out and spend on buying something?

 

If our government won't do anything about it to at least level the playing field so our American companies can at least compete fairly, then it is up to us as a people to do something about it and send a message to our government that we as a people will not allow them to destroy our country and wipe out our American industry. The only way you can do that is by what you choose to buy with your money! If we don't do anything about then the day is coming where you will never be able to do anything because the people will to poor to do anything.

 

You think taxes are high now? Wait until everyone is poor and can't buy anything other than barely being able to pay for a roof over their heads and food to eat. Our government will step in to save the day where everything you make is taxed and they will provide a shack for you live in and food stamps to get some food to eat while all your earnings go to them as a tax.

 

You think this is far fetched? That it could never happen? That it won't ever happen? Just take a good hard look at what has been happening and what is happening. The writing is on the wall. The choice is ours as a people. We can pretend nothing is happening and that this is all for the better or we can wake up and see what is really happening here and do something about it.

[sharabi]

Shelbydude....you are still using the term AMERICAN COMPANIES...FOREIGN COMPANIES....and i am trying to find a good way to get the message to you that those terms do not exist any more....every line you referred to is blurred by the greed of CEOs trying to cut corners and save a penny or two by out sourcing jobs, lets also not forget the damage the union inflicted by keeping on pay roll workers who simply did nothing but getting paid and made the idea of opening factories in Mexico and east europe more appealing, i do not even want to go there since it will inflame emotions, but it is true....when i was in FLINT training for internal medicine i had old patients that had good insurance coverage and used to call general motors GENEROUS MOTORS, for the great health insurance plans they had, even their glasses where almost free, then what happened...GM out sourced those jobs to Mexico and killed the economy of FLINT MI. now explain it to me...is GM a foreign company or American company.

 

At the end of the day things have changes, and economy rules are different now than what it was in the sixties and seventies you referred to in your examples. am not saying it is better ... but for sure it is different...and the rule of history is once the clock ticks it never goes back.

[ShelbyDude]

Shelbydude....you are still using the term AMERICAN COMPANIES...FOREIGN COMPANIES....and i am trying to find a good way to get the message to you that those terms do not exist any more....every line you referred to is blurred by the greed of CEOs trying to cut corners and save a penny or two by out sourcing jobs, lets also not forget the damage the union inflicted by keeping on pay roll workers who simply did nothing but getting paid and made the idea of opening factories in Mexico and east europe more appealing, i do not even want to go there since it will inflame emotions, but it is true....when i was in FLINT training for internal medicine i had old patients that had good insurance coverage and used to call general motors GENEROUS MOTORS, for the great health insurance plans they had, even their glasses where almost free, then what happened...GM out sourced those jobs to Mexico and killed the economy of FLINT MI. now explain it to me...is GM a foreign company or American company.

 

At the end of the day things have changes, and economy rules are different now than what it was in the sixties and seventies you referred to in your examples. am not saying it is better ... but for sure it is different...and the rule of history is once the clock ticks it never goes back.

 

 

They are still American OWNED companies. They buy products from all over the world, they out source jobs, because they are forced to do that to cut costs just to remain in business. Otherwise they would have been bankrupt by now.

 

WE as a people forced them to do that.

 

But at the end of the day, even though money is spent in foriegn countries, after deducting that cost, the profits made stay here and get reinvested here back into our economy. If they didn't out source they would have even less profits to be reinvested here.

 

And those great health benefits they provide are what makes you doctors a LOT of money! What do you think is going to happen to your level of income after the government takes over health care and tells you how much you will be paid??? Isn't that why a lot of foreign doctors come here? Because they can make a lot more money here and not be regulated by the government as to how much they can make? What do you think will happen when there are no more good health care plans available? The government will provide it by taxing us to death and regulating what you can get paid as a doctor. So you see, this isn't just about the auto industry. This about every free enterprise in this country!

 

The auto industry just happens to be the biggest industry this country has and when you see them being brought to their knees and crippled then you know this country is in big trouble! We are talking a ripple effect here that affects hundreds and hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs!

 

It isn't about cutting costs and pinching pennies to make more for themselves....its about being forced to cut and pinch pennies just to be able to survive in a unlevel playing field just to compete with these foreign companies coming here that can operate at a much lower cost. Level the playing field and there would be no benefit to out source anything!

[sharabi]

They are still American OWNED companies. They buy products from all over the world, they out source jobs, because they are forced to do that to cut costs just to remain in business. Otherwise they would have been bankrupt by now.

 

WE as a people forced them to do that.

 

But at the end of the day, even though money is spent in foriegn countries, after deducting that cost, the profits made stay here and get reinvested here back into our economy. If they didn't out source they would have even less profits to be reinvested here.

 

And those great health benefits they provide are what makes you doctors a LOT of money! What do you think is going to happen to your level of income after the government takes over health care and tells you how much you will be paid??? Isn't that why a lot of foreign doctors come here? Because they can make a lot more money here and not be regulated by the government as to how much they can make? What do you think will happen when there are no more good health care plans available? The government will provide it by taxing us to death and regulating what you can get paid as a doctor. So you see, this isn't just about the auto industry. This about every free enterprise in this country!

 

The auto industry just happens to be the biggest industry this country has and when you see them being brought to their knees and crippled then you know this country is in big trouble! We are talking a ripple effect here that affects hundreds and hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs!

 

It isn't about cutting costs and pinching pennies to make more for themselves....its about being forced to cut and pinch pennies just to be able to survive in a unlevel playing field just to compete with these foreign companies coming here that can operate at a much lower cost. Level the playing field and there would be no benefit to out source anything!

 

You are contradicting your self and i will point out where at least from my side as a physician.

 

Why do think i was approved for coming over to the states?

 

first am not less paid nor with less benefits than any internal medicine doctor started and finished training here in US.

 

second ....the cost of educating your kids or mine since they are born here to become a doctor is 5 digit number.

 

Why to fill the spots with doctors brought from over seas and not reduce the cost of education.

 

Who's fault to cost you son or daughter 5 digit number to become a doctor so not many people will be able to afford it and eventually they will bring some one who finished education from abroad and save pennies.

 

It is not my fault nor the patient's fault nor your kids or mine.

 

It is the greedy system ...what ever saves a penny regardless of the cost it will be done. an inherited flaw in the system that shows the signs of fatigue and weakness later in life...and that is what you are witnessing now.

 

I came here to have better life ...? yes and am giving in return my best years...so do not pull that line on me because we are even.

[DubbsFaris]

Please provide an example of "American Owned" company.... Ford? Ford is public, and anyone in the world can buy shares of its stock. Ford may already be a foreign majority owned company and you wouldn't even know it...

 

 

Or perhaps you were speaking of Annheiser-Busch... (For those of you who hadn't heard, they are now Belgium owned) (Go Stella Artois)

 

 

Are we talking about mom and pop companies? I just don't understand what american owned has to do with anything.

 

Microsoft WAS American owned....my buddy works for them in Singapore now- BTW- that is where my job got outsourced to in the 90's...I did get a nice severance package though....Stocks

 

Dell? Have you called their customer service lately? India baby! But Mr. Dell lives in a nice 20 million dollar house over Travis Lake and Austin, still haven't seen that money start rolling in from his pockets yet...Who btw now has more employees in foreign countries than here in the US...

 

And most other AMERICAN companies have no problem sending YOUR job to some other country, so why should I reject the company that locates here, even if it was started in Japan?

 

I must be dense- I guess I am the public that you speak of, since I clearly don't get it...

 

The largest consumer market in the world is going to collapse, the writing is on the wall, right?

 

If our foreign companies lost their largest consumer base, it spells just as much doom for them...

 

I think you generalize and speculate over economic issues that are much more complex than most of us, even us economic degreeholders can quite understand.

 

This is a very Michael Moore(ish) approach to global economies and the US...

I do like his movies though, so keep it coming...this thread is FUN! :happy feet: