How Likely Is Bankruptcy For Big Three?

[twicebitten]

someone said something about buying a 4 door .whatabout a pontiac g8 and where is it being made at?

[ShelbyDude]

I hope Big 3 don't file. Our tax dollars are bailing too many companies as it is. I try to buy as much American as I can. Just bought a Fusion for our family car. They took $5000 off the sticker for a loaded '08 with leather and every option I can think of except a nav system. It is a great car. 4 door sedans are pretty much the same to me and I was glad to get a Ford at such a price. I hope if our economy is now "global" people building our cars don't start getting "global" pay checks, say, like they do in China. I know everything we buy has parts made all over the world but I would really like to buy as much domestic as I can.

 

 

That must have been a $30K fusion you got on A-Plan minus rebates to get that much off.

 

A $30,435 Fusion only has $2,337 mark-up from invoice. With $2K rebates that would be $4,337 off and that is the dealer selling it for invoice. With A-Plan that would get you $5K off with the $2K rebate. And this is a SEL AWD loaded up with navigation.

[ShelbyDude]

There are always two sides to every debate. Truth is the UAW worker has it way better than any of the foreign car employers. There benefits and pay are higher and their retirement is top notch. While this is great for the UAW worker is tends to make it difficult to compete against the competition.

 

Simply put unions are great for making a safe work environment and giving the worker a voice that has support. However, Unions kill industry.

What happened to the Steel Industry in the US? The Unions killed it. Guys making $60 an hour (for unskilled labor) is rediculous. Not to mention benefits on top of that.

Granted it is better for them to make an outrageous wage then to be burden on the tax payers.

 

As for buying Toyota or some other foreign car, not in my household. It would be slapping the patients that work at Ford and Gm in the face if I did. Every car I have ever owned was made by the big 3. Yet I feel the unions have dug their own hole. I think the golden age of working in the auto plants is over. I think you are going to see the unions get very weak and the pay to go down to the $15 to $25 dollar per hour range.

 

 

It is the unions that built a middle class in this country. Without the unions there would have been no middle class.

 

Over the years they got out of hand. If a company had a deadbeat employee the unions would protect their jobs. Having to pay employees while sitting home doing nothing. Stuff like that is out of hand.

 

As for $60 per hour, that is with benefits and insurance included. Nothing wrong with that.

 

The other problem is all the regulations, epa, evironmentalists, politicians, getting involved adding excessive costs to businesses, then at the same time giving huge tax incentives to foreign companies to come build plants here, foreign companies importing goods here at prices American companies can't compete with because of all the regulations and higher labor costs to produce the same products here.

 

It wasn't the unions that destroyed anything. It was our government and foriegn companies importing the same products here for a lot less than what the companies here could produce them for and remain profitable. This drove companies out of the US forcing them to build plants and factories in other companies or sell out to foreign companies or close down and go out of business altogether.

 

Think back before there were unions. Low paying jobs, long hours, no benefits, no retirements, poor working conditions, etc. It was the unions that fixed all that and made it possible for average Americans to have good paying jobs and benefits and retirement plans. That is what made our economy prosper and grow over the years. That has all been changing now for many years.

 

Sure, the unions got carried away in some respects, but they are a very small problem to what the biggest problems are.

 

The government claims they want more white collar jobs over blue collar jobs. That is great! Only when you wipe out all the middle class there won't be enough people to spend in order to support the white collar jobs. They will be next to lose their jobs or be taken over by foreign companies and forced to take big pay cuts and lose benefits. It will be a domino effect that will hit every American. Then everyone will finally get it! Only it will be too late to get it! There won't be anything left but foreign owned companies employing all Americans at lower wages and everyone will have to live a lessor life style.

 

Remember how strong and big the steel industry was? All gone! The auto industry was always the biggest and strongest. Now look at them. They are heading for bankruptcy. When you see the auto industry going down the toilet that is approaching the end of the middle class as we know it. All the professional jobs will get hit next, only at a much faster pace because most of the working middle class has been wiped out and there is no money being spent to pump the economy. Everyone will barely be able to pay their mortgage, utilities and food costs, leaving them with no disposable income left buy anything else!

 

It is going to have a ripple effect that is going to cripple this country bringing it to its knees! It's coming and the writing is all over the wall and most people can't see it! They will see it in the very near future, but then it will be to late to do anything about it!

 

They say history repeats itself. I wonder if we will see the day after all the unions have been gone where the people band together and riot like the old days to form unions again after they are forced to work longer hours for a lot less pay with little to no benefits like the old days?

[DDT]

The "CRAP" that Detriot was pumping out in the mid 70s through the 80s

turned many loyal domestic car customers away that never came back

also plays into the situation today??????????????????????

[ShelbyDude]

The "CRAP" that Detriot was pumping out in the mid 70s through the 80s

turned many loyal domestic car customers away that never came back

also plays into the situation today??????????????????????

 

 

The foreign companies were pumping out some real crap in the 70's as well.

 

If people want to protect and preserve their country they need to stand by the American companies no matter what. Period! End of story. No stinking car or any other product is worth selling your country out over. And for what? To save a FEW dollars that in the end will only result in affecting everyone with lower paying jobs, less benefits, and one big messed up economy after the middle class has been completely wiped out!

 

What we are doing is nothing more than legalized treason!

 

Everytime you are about to buy something just ask yourself which country is more important to YOU? America or some other country? It is that simple!

 

Would you sell out your country for $5 bucks? $100 bucks? $500 bucks? $1000 bucks?

 

Just because the politicians sell us out doesn't mean we have to do it as well.

 

So the next time you spend your hard eraned dollars just spend it where the money goes to the country you care about most. It's your choice. You can be part of the problem or choose to not be part of the problem.

[mr4teth]

The foreign companies were pumping out some real crap in the 70's as well.

 

If people want to protect and preserve their country they need to stand by the American companies no matter what. Period! End of story. No stinking car or any other product is worth selling your country out over. And for what? To save a FEW dollars that in the end will only result in affecting everyone with lower paying jobs, less benefits, and one big messed up economy after the middle class has been completely wiped out!

 

What we are doing is nothing more than legalized treason!

 

Everytime you are about to buy something just ask yourself which country is more important to YOU? America or some other country? It is that simple!

 

Would you sell out your country for $5 bucks? $100 bucks? $500 bucks? $1000 bucks?

 

Just because the politicians sell us out doesn't mean we have to do it as well.

 

So the next time you spend your hard eraned dollars just spend it where the money goes to the country you care about most. It's your choice. You can be part of the problem or choose to not be part of the problem.

 

I finally know who I'm voting for in November!! ..... ShelbyDude for President! :elefant:

[ff500]

2008 Lincoln MKZ AWD, up to 29 mpg for $26,999.00 heated and cooled seats, reverse sensing, moonroof, sirius radio.

[DDT]

The foreign companies were pumping out some real crap in the 70's as well.

 

If people want to protect and preserve their country they need to stand by the American companies no matter what. Period! End of story. No stinking car or any other product is worth selling your country out over. And for what? To save a FEW dollars that in the end will only result in affecting everyone with lower paying jobs, less benefits, and one big messed up economy after the middle class has been completely wiped out!

 

What we are doing is nothing more than legalized treason!

 

Everytime you are about to buy something just ask yourself which country is more important to YOU? America or some other country? It is that simple!

 

Would you sell out your country for $5 bucks? $100 bucks? $500 bucks? $1000 bucks?

 

Just because the politicians sell us out doesn't mean we have to do it as well.

 

So the next time you spend your hard eraned dollars just spend it where the money goes to the country you care about most. It's your choice. You can be part of the problem or choose to not be part of the problem.

 

My Dad owned a 74 chevy vega and an 84 Ford Fairmont. Both cars turned out "CRAP" and constantly

needed repairs but we are one of the few families that stayed with Detroit cars...........

 

I still joke with my Dad that he needs me to pick his new car purchases??????????

[wonbadappl]

My Dad owned a 74 chevy vega and an 84 Ford Fairmont. Both cars turned out "CRAP" and constantly

needed repairs but we are one of the few families that stayed with Detroit cars...........

 

I still joke with my Dad that he needs me to pick his new car purchases??????????

 

 

 

 

I still have my 1st car that I ever bought new.............1987 Ford Escort GT......Dark Shadow Blue, gray interior, auto seatbelts.........66,000 original miles.........in 1990 I put 2 quarts of DuraLube in her and i swear thats what keeps her going........

[19Maddog64]

That must have been a $30K fusion you got on A-Plan minus rebates to get that much off.

 

A $30,435 Fusion only has $2,337 mark-up from invoice. With $2K rebates that would be $4,337 off and that is the dealer selling it for invoice. With A-Plan that would get you $5K off with the $2K rebate. And this is a SEL AWD loaded up with navigation.

 

It is not AWD. It is an SEL with leather, sync, moon & tune, sirius w/6 cd. The total MSRP was $25,385. Before tax, etc., the price was $20,385. I don't know how they got that price. It was Dick Smith in Columbia, S.C. They have always given me good prices. They had '08 Mustantang GT's with leather at $23,000 +. I almost bought 1 of those but didn't need 2 Mustangs and no 4 door.

 

I think there are some awesome deals to be had at Big 3.

[ShelbyDude]

It is not AWD. It is an SEL with leather, sync, moon & tune, sirius w/6 cd. The total MSRP was $25,385. Before tax, etc., the price was $20,385. I don't know how they got that price. It was Dick Smith in Columbia, S.C. They have always given me good prices. They had '08 Mustantang GT's with leather at $23,000 +. I almost bought 1 of those but didn't need 2 Mustangs and no 4 door.

 

I think there are some awesome deals to be had at Big 3.

 

 

I just check incentives based on their zip code. Ford is giving up to twice the amount in rebates in that region.

 

In our region there is $1500 rebate + $500 bonus cash for a total of $2000 in total rebates.

 

In your region there is $1500 rebate + $1500 bonus cash + $1000 owner loyalty for a total of $4000 just in rebates. So $5K off would be a slam dunk with the dealer taking only $1000 off MSRP.

[LuisA]

Are MILLIONS of Amricans who bought Toyota and made them #1 wrong? I don't think so! Why did Americans buy so many foreign cars? Cause they got MUCH more value for their buck! That's why!

 

Better resell, better quality, more fuel efficient cars, funner to drive cars AND lower cost to own and operate.....that why Toyota, Nissan and others penetrated this market so deeply!

 

AND, this is not unique to the auto industry.......steel industry, electronics, airplanes (every singlr commuter plane is now built in Canada or Brazil, yes Brazil, a third world country!!), electro domestics.......and the list goes on and on.

[ShelbyDude]

Are MILLIONS of Amricans who bought Toyota and made them #1 wrong? I don't think so! Why did Americans buy so many foreign cars? Cause they got MUCH more value for their buck! That's why!

 

Better resell, better quality, more fuel efficient cars, funner to drive cars AND lower cost to own and operate.....that why Toyota, Nissan and others penetrated this market so deeply!

 

AND, this is not unique to the auto industry.......steel industry, electronics, airplanes (every singlr commuter plane is now built in Canada or Brazil, yes Brazil, a third world country!!), electro domestics.......and the list goes on and on.

 

 

More value for the buck? HARDLY! There is no more value than what you get in American cars.

 

Resale better? It's a WASH in the end.

 

You pay MORE when you buy them which is why you get more when you sell or trade them. The difference is in the rebates you get on American cars VS little to no rebates on the foreign cars. Rebates hurt resale value, but in the end when you figure in the rebate amounts the difference between them works out to be the same.

 

So the question is, do you want to keep more of your money NOW or wait to get that part of it back later when you go to sell or trade it in?

 

I'd take keeping more of my money NOW rather than worrying about getting it back later.

 

Lets compare the Focus VS Corolla for example.

 

Both compareable models with a MSRP at $17K

 

You pay $17K to buy the Corolla today.

 

You pay about $13,500 for the Focus today.

 

You KEEP $3,500 of your money NOW by buying the Focus, and get a better car to boot!

 

Later you go to sell or trade the Corolla and the Focus. How much difference is there between the two in resale value??? About $2,000. Corolla brings $2,000 more but you saved $3,500 at the time of purchase when you bought the Focus.

 

So where is the better resale value??? You paid a few grand MORE for the Corolla when you bought it and you are merely getting that extra you paid back when you go to sell it. Assuming you are selling or trading it within 3 years otherwise you don't get back that much.

 

So for VALUE the American made cars offer more bang for the buck because of the bigger rebates available. If they didn't have those rebates they would bring higher resale values just like the foreign cars. It is the rebates that hurt resale value, not the vehicle itself.

 

Funny how people like to compare their resale value to what the MSRP was VS what they actually paid!

 

Sorry, but better fuel efficient is another MYTH! You are basing that off inflated estimates on the window stickers! Did you KNOW that Toyota use to based their highway miles based on driving 45 mph VS the 65 mph the American manufacturers based their mileage on??? When you are basing mileage off driving highway speeds 20 mph below the speed limit of course the mileage would be better! But the truth is that was all flawed by Toyota!

 

Better quality??? Another MYTH! Toyota's quality is no better and never has been.

 

The misperception on that is because there is a difference class of people that always bought Toyota VS American made. Toyota buyers for the most part are higher income buyers, They have disposable incomes which allows them to properly maintain their cars where American car buyers for the most part are lower income, have NO disposable income and can not afford to take proper care of their car. They just drive them until something breaks! Anyone with any common sense knows that if you don't properly maintain a piece of machinery that it is going to breakdown sooner. Toyota buyers bring their cars into the dealer for all routine scheduled maintenance. American car buyers NEVER bring their cars in. They struggle just to make the payments and don't have the disposable incomes to pay for proper routine maintenance.

 

This isn't theory. This is FACT! We have Ford-BMW-Toyota. We see what comes through our service department everyday. All Toyota and BMW vehicles are mostly coming in just for regular maintenance. Most Ford's are coming in that people have racked tons of miles up and they were NEVER brought in for maintenance. A lot of them haven't even had the oil changed regularly! Ford buyers = HARD DRIVEN MILES vs Toyota-BMW buyers = EASY DRIVEN MILES!

 

Of the small percentage of American car buyers that do have disposable incomes and that do properly maintain their cars and change their oil regularly you rarely ever see their cars breaking down. They run and perform just as good if not better than any Toyota car that was properly maintained.

 

That leaves manufacturer recalls. Guess what? TOYOTA has had more recalls than Ford and GM. Toyota had the most recalls over any other manufacturer. Now how can that be if their quality is better???

 

So what made Toyota #1? A lot of MYTH and misperceptions the general public has about their product being better. Along with a bias press that has always praised Toyota and done nothing but give bad press about the American manufacturers.

 

You don't beieve that? Then explain why you never see any bad press on all the recalls Toyota has had? Why do you always see full front page ads about every little thing on the Amercan manufacturers and if they ever do run anything about Toyota that is bad they bury it in a small article buried inside the paper somewhere where most people will never see it and they only run it that one time VS being front page news for a weeks at a time like they do to the American manufacturers? How do you explain that?

 

People tend to believe anything the press tells them. THAT is what made Toyota number one.

 

Here is a typical Ford buyer VS Toyota buyer at our dealership.

 

Ford buyer: Yeah, I want to buy a new Focus. No problem, we have 15 in stock. Which one do you like? Well, none of those. I want this color, with these options and I don't want those options. OK, we'll try to find you one. OK, but I don't want to pay anything over invoice and I want the $2500 rebate off that and would really like the 0% with that. I have a 550 FICO!

 

Toyota buyer. Yeah, I want a blue Corolla with these options. Sorry, I don't have any blue. I only have this pink with purple polka dots and it doesn't have the options you want. OK, I'll take it! Customer pulls out checkbook and writes a check for full sticker!

 

Other than the polka dots, this is no exageration! We could have monkeys as sales people on our Toyota lot and they would sell just as many as they do now!

 

People believe what the press tells them. If the press says it is so then it must be so. So they buy what the press tells them is better. In spite of the fact Toyota leads as number one in total recalls, and that ALL cars regardless of who made them today will last just as long as any other car WHEN they are properly maintained, people do not know any difference and just believes what they read in the press.

[LuckySnake]

There is no foreign / American made any more....this logic is gone for ever....get used to the new global economy where every thing blends like i said before scrambled eggs

I think you are right.

[Glenracer]

More value for the buck? HARDLY! There is no more value than what you get in American cars.

 

Resale better? It's a WASH in the end.

 

You pay MORE when you buy them which is why you get more when you sell or trade them. The difference is in the rebates you get on American cars VS little to no rebates on the foreign cars. Rebates hurt resale value, but in the end when you figure in the rebate amounts the difference between them works out to be the same.

 

So the question is, do you want to keep more of your money NOW or wait to get that part of it back later when you go to sell or trade it in?

 

I'd take keeping more of my money NOW rather than worrying about getting it back later.

 

Lets compare the Focus VS Corolla for example.

 

Both compareable models with a MSRP at $17K

 

You pay $17K to buy the Corolla today.

 

You pay about $13,500 for the Focus today.

 

You KEEP $3,500 of your money NOW by buying the Focus, and get a better car to boot!

 

Later you go to sell or trade the Corolla and the Focus. How much difference is there between the two in resale value??? About $2,000. Corolla brings $2,000 more but you saved $3,500 at the time of purchase when you bought the Focus.

 

So where is the better resale value??? You paid a few grand MORE for the Corolla when you bought it and you are merely getting that extra you paid back when you go to sell it. Assuming you are selling or trading it within 3 years otherwise you don't get back that much.

 

So for VALUE the American made cars offer more bang for the buck because of the bigger rebates available. If they didn't have those rebates they would bring higher resale values just like the foreign cars. It is the rebates that hurt resale value, not the vehicle itself.

 

Funny how people like to compare their resale value to what the MSRP was VS what they actually paid!

 

Sorry, but better fuel efficient is another MYTH! You are basing that off inflated estimates on the window stickers! Did you KNOW that Toyota use to based their highway miles based on driving 45 mph VS the 65 mph the American manufacturers based their mileage on??? When you are basing mileage off driving highway speeds 20 mph below the speed limit of course the mileage would be better! But the truth is that was all flawed by Toyota!

 

Better quality??? Another MYTH! Toyota's quality is no better and never has been.

 

The misperception on that is because there is a difference class of people that always bought Toyota VS American made. Toyota buyers for the most part are higher income buyers, They have disposable incomes which allows them to properly maintain their cars where American car buyers for the most part are lower income, have NO disposable income and can not afford to take proper care of their car. They just drive them until something breaks! Anyone with any common sense knows that if you don't properly maintain a piece of machinery that it is going to breakdown sooner. Toyota buyers bring their cars into the dealer for all routine scheduled maintenance. American car buyers NEVER bring their cars in. They struggle just to make the payments and don't have the disposable incomes to pay for proper routine maintenance.

 

This isn't theory. This is FACT! We have Ford-BMW-Toyota. We see what comes through our service department everyday. All Toyota and BMW vehicles are mostly coming in just for regular maintenance. Most Ford's are coming in that people have racked tons of miles up and they were NEVER brought in for maintenance. A lot of them haven't even had the oil changed regularly! Ford buyers = HARD DRIVEN MILES vs Toyota-BMW buyers = EASY DRIVEN MILES!

 

Of the small percentage of American car buyers that do have disposable incomes and that do properly maintain their cars and change their oil regularly you rarely ever see their cars breaking down. They run and perform just as good if not better than any Toyota car that was properly maintained.

 

That leaves manufacturer recalls. Guess what? TOYOTA has had more recalls than Ford and GM. Toyota had the most recalls over any other manufacturer. Now how can that be if their quality is better???

 

So what made Toyota #1? A lot of MYTH and misperceptions the general public has about their product being better. Along with a bias press that has always praised Toyota and done nothing but give bad press about the American manufacturers.

 

You don't beieve that? Then explain why you never see any bad press on all the recalls Toyota has had? Why do you always see full front page ads about every little thing on the Amercan manufacturers and if they ever do run anything about Toyota that is bad they bury it in a small article buried inside the paper somewhere where most people will never see it and they only run it that one time VS being front page news for a weeks at a time like they do to the American manufacturers? How do you explain that?

 

People tend to believe anything the press tells them. THAT is what made Toyota number one.

 

Here is a typical Ford buyer VS Toyota buyer at our dealership.

 

Ford buyer: Yeah, I want to buy a new Focus. No problem, we have 15 in stock. Which one do you like? Well, none of those. I want this color, with these options and I don't want those options. OK, we'll try to find you one. OK, but I don't want to pay anything over invoice and I want the $2500 rebate off that and would really like the 0% with that. I have a 550 FICO!

 

Toyota buyer. Yeah, I want a blue Corolla with these options. Sorry, I don't have any blue. I only have this pink with purple polka dots and it doesn't have the options you want. OK, I'll take it! Customer pulls out checkbook and writes a check for full sticker!

 

Other than the polka dots, this is no exageration! We could have monkeys as sales people on our Toyota lot and they would sell just as many as they do now!

 

People believe what the press tells them. If the press says it is so then it must be so. So they buy what the press tells them is better. In spite of the fact Toyota leads as number one in total recalls, and that ALL cars regardless of who made them today will last just as long as any other car WHEN they are properly maintained, people do not know any difference and just believes what they read in the press.

I completely agree, Shelbydude...again all smoke and mirrors and again I will say as long as they make Fords or Chevrolet or Dodges that means I wont have to drive anything from japan or anywhere else....global economy be damned...I always have and always will drive and own American.

What Shelbydude is saying is exactly right. As I said earlier on this subject, level the playing field and lets see how competitive japan is and I dont care how many Americans they employ and how much money they inject into our economy, the profits still go to japan....thats after we as American taxpayers have paid them to build plants here. Land, tax breaks,no unions, no pensions just build a plant and employ people and make it look like they made an investment in our future so they said here in San Antonio. They said that they were happy to find the people of San Antonio with such a great work ethic...baloney, Texas is right to work state and labor is cheap. Just because they make a good living now does not guarantee that they always will. I have already heard that toyota is talking wage reduction....Sheesh, I hope that isn't true but I would not be surprised by it. All Hail the mighty God of Toyota! Damn it.

[sharabi]

o unions, no pensions just build a plant and employ people and make it look like they made an investment in our future so they said here in San Antonio. They said that they were happy to find the people of San Antonio with such a great work ethic...baloney, Texas is right to work state and labor is cheap. Just because they make a good living now does not guarantee that they always will.

 

 

Is that the same reason why GM builds in Mexico...no unions , no benefits , cheap labor....etc.

 

the bottom line things are not clear cut. not night and day...GM can be worse than Toyota when they kill the economy in Flint MI and move plants to Mexico...now the trend is East Europe.

 

Am not in the favor of buying Toyota or Honda, Nor aginst buying GM and Ford...

 

the three cars i have are: shelby, explorer, blazer.

 

Am i supporting the economy of Mexico, Canada, East Europe or the economy of US when i did buy them?

 

I do not have the answer....only the bean counters up high in the rank know the real answer.

[CH53Driver]

All I can say is that if ShelbyDude and Grabber were to ever do a joint post, it would be longer than War and Peace between all of Grabber's photo's and ShelbyDude's dissertations!

 

So can I get a Focus with pink polka dots and a flying elephant? I have my checkbook with me.

[CH53Driver]

Is that the same reason why GM builds in Mexico...no unions , no benefits , cheap labor....etc.

 

the bottom line things are not clear cut. not night and day...GM can be worse than Toyota when they kill the economy in Flint MI and move plants to Mexico...now the trend is East Europe.

 

Am not in the favor of buying Toyota or Honda, Nor aginst buying GM and Ford...

 

the three cars i have are: shelby, explorer, blazer.

 

Am i supporting the economy of Mexico, Canada, East Europe or the economy of US when i did buy them?

 

I do not have the answer....only the bean counters up high in the rank know the real answer.

 

I think you have a pretty good point Sharabi. I was in the Mall today and saw a couple of Saturn's on display. I went over to look at them and one was a little hatchback called the Astra? I was shocked when I looked at the window sticker. Only 3% of the parts content were Domestic in nature, the rest were from Hungary and somewhere else in Europe with the car being assembled in Hungary if I recall right? I thought it was a cool little car and thought maybe it would be a good choice for a DD and I would be supporting domestic...until I saw the fine print. Scrambled eggs!

[LuisA]

More value for the buck? HARDLY! There is no more value than what you get in American cars.

 

Resale better? It's a WASH in the end.

 

You pay MORE when you buy them which is why you get more when you sell or trade them. The difference is in the rebates you get on American cars VS little to no rebates on the foreign cars. Rebates hurt resale value, but in the end when you figure in the rebate amounts the difference between them works out to be the same.

 

So the question is, do you want to keep more of your money NOW or wait to get that part of it back later when you go to sell or trade it in?

 

I'd take keeping more of my money NOW rather than worrying about getting it back later.

 

Lets compare the Focus VS Corolla for example.

 

Both compareable models with a MSRP at $17K

 

You pay $17K to buy the Corolla today.

 

You pay about $13,500 for the Focus today.

 

You KEEP $3,500 of your money NOW by buying the Focus, and get a better car to boot!

 

Later you go to sell or trade the Corolla and the Focus. How much difference is there between the two in resale value??? About $2,000. Corolla brings $2,000 more but you saved $3,500 at the time of purchase when you bought the Focus.

 

So where is the better resale value??? You paid a few grand MORE for the Corolla when you bought it and you are merely getting that extra you paid back when you go to sell it. Assuming you are selling or trading it within 3 years otherwise you don't get back that much.

 

So for VALUE the American made cars offer more bang for the buck because of the bigger rebates available. If they didn't have those rebates they would bring higher resale values just like the foreign cars. It is the rebates that hurt resale value, not the vehicle itself.

 

Funny how people like to compare their resale value to what the MSRP was VS what they actually paid!

 

Sorry, but better fuel efficient is another MYTH! You are basing that off inflated estimates on the window stickers! Did you KNOW that Toyota use to based their highway miles based on driving 45 mph VS the 65 mph the American manufacturers based their mileage on??? When you are basing mileage off driving highway speeds 20 mph below the speed limit of course the mileage would be better! But the truth is that was all flawed by Toyota!

 

Better quality??? Another MYTH! Toyota's quality is no better and never has been.

 

The misperception on that is because there is a difference class of people that always bought Toyota VS American made. Toyota buyers for the most part are higher income buyers, They have disposable incomes which allows them to properly maintain their cars where American car buyers for the most part are lower income, have NO disposable income and can not afford to take proper care of their car. They just drive them until something breaks! Anyone with any common sense knows that if you don't properly maintain a piece of machinery that it is going to breakdown sooner. Toyota buyers bring their cars into the dealer for all routine scheduled maintenance. American car buyers NEVER bring their cars in. They struggle just to make the payments and don't have the disposable incomes to pay for proper routine maintenance.

 

This isn't theory. This is FACT! We have Ford-BMW-Toyota. We see what comes through our service department everyday. All Toyota and BMW vehicles are mostly coming in just for regular maintenance. Most Ford's are coming in that people have racked tons of miles up and they were NEVER brought in for maintenance. A lot of them haven't even had the oil changed regularly! Ford buyers = HARD DRIVEN MILES vs Toyota-BMW buyers = EASY DRIVEN MILES!

 

Of the small percentage of American car buyers that do have disposable incomes and that do properly maintain their cars and change their oil regularly you rarely ever see their cars breaking down. They run and perform just as good if not better than any Toyota car that was properly maintained.

 

That leaves manufacturer recalls. Guess what? TOYOTA has had more recalls than Ford and GM. Toyota had the most recalls over any other manufacturer. Now how can that be if their quality is better???

 

So what made Toyota #1? A lot of MYTH and misperceptions the general public has about their product being better. Along with a bias press that has always praised Toyota and done nothing but give bad press about the American manufacturers.

 

You don't beieve that? Then explain why you never see any bad press on all the recalls Toyota has had? Why do you always see full front page ads about every little thing on the Amercan manufacturers and if they ever do run anything about Toyota that is bad they bury it in a small article buried inside the paper somewhere where most people will never see it and they only run it that one time VS being front page news for a weeks at a time like they do to the American manufacturers? How do you explain that?

 

People tend to believe anything the press tells them. THAT is what made Toyota number one.

 

Here is a typical Ford buyer VS Toyota buyer at our dealership.

 

Ford buyer: Yeah, I want to buy a new Focus. No problem, we have 15 in stock. Which one do you like? Well, none of those. I want this color, with these options and I don't want those options. OK, we'll try to find you one. OK, but I don't want to pay anything over invoice and I want the $2500 rebate off that and would really like the 0% with that. I have a 550 FICO!

 

Toyota buyer. Yeah, I want a blue Corolla with these options. Sorry, I don't have any blue. I only have this pink with purple polka dots and it doesn't have the options you want. OK, I'll take it! Customer pulls out checkbook and writes a check for full sticker!

 

Other than the polka dots, this is no exageration! We could have monkeys as sales people on our Toyota lot and they would sell just as many as they do now!

 

People believe what the press tells them. If the press says it is so then it must be so. So they buy what the press tells them is better. In spite of the fact Toyota leads as number one in total recalls, and that ALL cars regardless of who made them today will last just as long as any other car WHEN they are properly maintained, people do not know any difference and just believes what they read in the press.

 

 

SD,

Never thought my short comment woudl elicit such a long repply. Consider:

 

1) Last I looked at Edmunds.com the Focus and Corolla were about $500 apart. Not $3500.

2) 10 years ago you could buy a Corolla. Where was the Focus then? Agree, Ford, GM and Chrysler have all done wonderful things in the last few years, but 10-15 years ago they were asleep and the Japs ate their cake. Isn't Toyota #1 now? Why?

3) Toyota sold almost 10,000,000 cars last year.......are all those buyers wrong?

4) Today even in the pickup arena, dominated by US auto makers, the Japs are making big in rows.

5) Do yo know which of the two has a LOWER Owning and Operating Cost? That's right, Corolla does! And, the Civic beats both of them!

 

Yes, I do not buy Chinese products or products from non-friendly countries.......but, one must admit that the Japs have done a fantastic jon in the auto industry and now Korea is moving ahead.

 

Who would have ever dreamed that we would see $50k to $75k Japanese cars in our roads?....and many of them!

 

Just my 2 cents

[ShelbyDude]

Is that the same reason why GM builds in Mexico...no unions , no benefits , cheap labor....etc.

 

the bottom line things are not clear cut. not night and day...GM can be worse than Toyota when they kill the economy in Flint MI and move plants to Mexico...now the trend is East Europe.

 

Am not in the favor of buying Toyota or Honda, Nor aginst buying GM and Ford...

 

the three cars i have are: shelby, explorer, blazer.

 

Am i supporting the economy of Mexico, Canada, East Europe or the economy of US when i did buy them?

 

I do not have the answer....only the bean counters up high in the rank know the real answer.

 

 

No, the reason they build plants in Mexico and buy parts from all over the world is because they are forced into doing that because of higher costs here. They have much higher costs here than what their foreign competitors have that sell cars here.

 

If the foreign manufacturers had to pay the same union scales, benefits, retirements, and didn't get the all the tax breaks, then the American companies could build more plants here, make more parts here, keep more people employed here and better our economy here.

 

This why we have a global economy now. Because we have forced American companies out of our country just so they can remain competitive with costs. If all the foreign companies were held to the same standards, or taxed for their imports here, then all American companies could be more competitive, build better quality products, employ more Americans at the better wages, instead of being forced out of business, forced to sell out to foreign companies, forced to buy parts that are cheaper from foreign companies, and on and on and on.

 

So while there is SOME money being spent on foreign parts, building plants in Mexico, etc....at the end of the day when it is all said and done any PROFITS made stay in the US.

 

And while Toyota builds plants here and provides jobs to people here, the American companies are laying off employees that were being paid higher wages, better benefits, better retirements. Kind of like robbing from the rich to give to the poor. Only we are taking middle class Americans, doing away with their jobs and replacing them with Americans to come in and work for a lot less wages, benefits and retirements.

 

If the American people refused to buy anything other than products and services from American owned companies there would not be a global economy. There were be more jobs here, there would be more plants built here, there would be more parts made here, there would be less unemployment, we would have a booming economy. Foreign companies that wanted to import any products here would be taxed on those products, there would not be any special tax breaks for them, the government would make sure the playing field was level, instead of turning their backs on American companies while giving special interest to foreign companies.

 

So for now the only thing that is left is that for the moment we still have American owned companies. Any profits they earn stay here regardless of where they buy their parts, assemble their products or build their plants.

 

If you don't want them buying foreign parts, building plants outside the US, then step up and support those American companies so they don't have to. Otherwise we will ALL be working for foreign owned companies in the near future and we ALL will be forced to take big pay cuts, lose benefits, and have no retirements.

 

Even though you may not be in a union, you are not protected from losing your jobs to some foreign company. No matter what profession you are in this country needs the middle class to keep ALL businesses prospering. Take away the middle class and everyone loses! That is exactly what is happening here.

 

You may get through it OK in your remaining life time, but your kids won't if we as a people don't change it!

 

So when you buy something ask yourself, where do the PROFITS go??? Who's future is most important to me? My kids and grandkids or the kids and grandkids in a foreign country???

 

Their future is in our hands today! Don't sell them out and don't sell their country out from under them. We have Americans dying to protect our country while we sit at home selling off our country piece by piece. What is wrong with that picture?

[ShelbyDude]

SD,

Never thought my short comment woudl elicit such a long repply. Consider:

 

1) Last I looked at Edmunds.com the Focus and Corolla were about $500 apart. Not $3500.

2) 10 years ago you could buy a Corolla. Where was the Focus then? Agree, Ford, GM and Chrysler have all done wonderful things in the last few years, but 10-15 years ago they were asleep and the Japs ate their cake. Isn't Toyota #1 now? Why?

3) Toyota sold almost 10,000,000 cars last year.......are all those buyers wrong?

4) Today even in the pickup arena, dominated by US auto makers, the Japs are making big in rows.

5) Do yo know which of the two has a LOWER Owning and Operating Cost? That's right, Corolla does! And, the Civic beats both of them!

 

Yes, I do not buy Chinese products or products from non-friendly countries.......but, one must admit that the Japs have done a fantastic jon in the auto industry and now Korea is moving ahead.

 

Who would have ever dreamed that we would see $50k to $75k Japanese cars in our roads?....and many of them!

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

Like I said, if people read it in the press somewhere they will believe it!

 

So you have owned a Focus, Corolla and Civic and you have first hand experience and knowledge that the Civic has the lowest owning and operating costs, yes??? Don't believe the hype you read!

 

And you will pay $3500 more to buy a Corolla over a Focus. We sell both.

[ShelbyDude]

SD,

Never thought my short comment woudl elicit such a long repply. Consider:

 

1) Last I looked at Edmunds.com the Focus and Corolla were about $500 apart. Not $3500.

2) 10 years ago you could buy a Corolla. Where was the Focus then? Agree, Ford, GM and Chrysler have all done wonderful things in the last few years, but 10-15 years ago they were asleep and the Japs ate their cake. Isn't Toyota #1 now? Why?

3) Toyota sold almost 10,000,000 cars last year.......are all those buyers wrong?

4) Today even in the pickup arena, dominated by US auto makers, the Japs are making big in rows.

5) Do yo know which of the two has a LOWER Owning and Operating Cost? That's right, Corolla does! And, the Civic beats both of them!

 

Yes, I do not buy Chinese products or products from non-friendly countries.......but, one must admit that the Japs have done a fantastic jon in the auto industry and now Korea is moving ahead.

 

Who would have ever dreamed that we would see $50k to $75k Japanese cars in our roads?....and many of them!

 

Just my 2 cents

 

 

 

2008 Corolla Rebate = $0

 

2008 Focus Rebate = up to $2000

 

2008 Camry Rebate = $500

 

2008 Fusion Rebates = up to $2500

 

Focus = up to $1000 off sticker plus up to $2000 Rebate = $3000 off sticker.

 

Corolla = $0 off sticker + $0 Rebate

 

Fusion = up to $1800 off sticker + up to $2500 rebate = $4300 off sticker

 

Camry = $0 off sticker + $500 rebate = $500 off sticker.

 

 

Now how are you going to buy a Focus or Fusion for only $500 difference from a Corolla or Camry???

 

Take those discounts you get off the Focus and Fusion and apply those amounts to what the resale value is in the future. That is where the difference is with what you THINK is a better resale value on the Corolla and Camry.

 

Rather than getting the same resale value in the future you already got it up front when you bought the car new!

 

So do you want that $2000 - $3000 NOW or do you want to wait about 3 years until you go to sell your Corolla or Camry to get it?

 

I don't know about you, but I'd take MY $2000 - $3000 NOW! You never know what the future holds in 3 or more years from now, not to mention that same $2000 - $3000 will buy a lot less in 3 years from now than what it will buy you today!

[ShelbyDude]

SD,

Never thought my short comment woudl elicit such a long repply. Consider:

 

1) Last I looked at Edmunds.com the Focus and Corolla were about $500 apart. Not $3500.

2) 10 years ago you could buy a Corolla. Where was the Focus then? Agree, Ford, GM and Chrysler have all done wonderful things in the last few years, but 10-15 years ago they were asleep and the Japs ate their cake. Isn't Toyota #1 now? Why?

3) Toyota sold almost 10,000,000 cars last year.......are all those buyers wrong?

4) Today even in the pickup arena, dominated by US auto makers, the Japs are making big in rows.

5) Do yo know which of the two has a LOWER Owning and Operating Cost? That's right, Corolla does! And, the Civic beats both of them!

 

Yes, I do not buy Chinese products or products from non-friendly countries.......but, one must admit that the Japs have done a fantastic jon in the auto industry and now Korea is moving ahead.

 

Who would have ever dreamed that we would see $50k to $75k Japanese cars in our roads?....and many of them!

 

Just my 2 cents

 

3) Toyota sold almost 10,000,000 cars last year.......are all those buyers wrong?

 

VERY WRONG!

 

10 Million X $10K profit per vehicle = $100,000,000,000.00 sent to Japan instead of the US.

 

Yep! I'd say that is VERY WRONG!

[LuisA]

3) Toyota sold almost 10,000,000 cars last year.......are all those buyers wrong?

 

VERY WRONG!

 

10 Million X $10K profit per vehicle = $100,000,000,000.00 sent to Japan instead of the US.

 

Yep! I'd say that is VERY WRONG!

 

Except that not ALL went to Japan......last I heard, Toyota has plants in the US, therefor some of that money stayed here!

 

You missed one of my points, years ago you could buy a Corolla (or similar) from Toyota; what were the choices from US auto makers? Pinto? Gremlin?

 

And tell me, how can Toyota make $10k profit for every car they sell while Ford, GM and Chrysler loose money for every car they make? Bottom line, in the free enterprize, capitalist world; you MUST make money to stay in business.......why haven't teh big 3 US auto makers figured out how?

 

No, 10,000,000 buyers are NOT wrong; they are buying what they perceive to be a better value! If in fact, Ford or GFM or Chrysler is a better value; why haven't they been able convience the buying public?

 

And, how long does it take you to custom order a US car? Last custom order car I bought from GM took 12 weeks to get........I can custom order a BMW 650 and have it delivered in 4-6 weeks! All the way from Germany!!

 

I respect your point of view; but, this is a free society and buyers are "voting" (by buying) for the auto maker they feel gives them the best overall value........and it is NOT Ford, nor GM, nor Chrysler! Something has to change or they will go belly up!

 

Same thing is happening in this country with airlines.......fly Delta or American and get mediocre service , delayed flights with a softfrink and a bag of peanuts.......fly KLM or Copa or Taca or Air Jamaica..........and you will see what I mean.

 

......and why did the military buy Air Bus refulling planes instead of Boeing? I think for the same reason that 10,000,000 folks bought Toyota.

 

In my opinion one of our biggest issue as a society is the entitlement mentallity we have.

[CH53Driver]

......and why did the military buy Air Bus refulling planes instead of Boeing? I think for the same reason that 10,000,000 folks bought Toyota.

 

In my opinion one of our biggest issue as a society is the entitlement mentallity we have.

 

Well, I can refute this one to a certain degree. That whole contract is in jeopardy right now for several reasons. First, it was challenged by the US companies (Boeing). Secondly, they (the AF) has learned of numerous "issues" with the AirBus product. Lastly, AirBus is a joint European venture that was started as a way to compete with the US companies. One of the strategies of AirBus was to be partly state-funded (think pseudo-socialism here) so that way it could keep its "costs down" and therefore able to make a similar product to the US companies at a cheaper price. So with an AirBus aircraft, we (the US) gets more "bang for the buck", however at what cost? By buying a foreign piece of military hardware, not only do you undercut our own US companies but bring in a whole slew of other factors.

[ShelbyDude]

Except that not ALL went to Japan......last I heard, Toyota has plants in the US, therefor some of that money stayed here!

 

You missed one of my points, years ago you could buy a Corolla (or similar) from Toyota; what were the choices from US auto makers? Pinto? Gremlin?

 

And tell me, how can Toyota make $10k profit for every car they sell while Ford, GM and Chrysler loose money for every car they make? Bottom line, in the free enterprize, capitalist world; you MUST make money to stay in business.......why haven't teh big 3 US auto makers figured out how?

 

No, 10,000,000 buyers are NOT wrong; they are buying what they perceive to be a better value! If in fact, Ford or GFM or Chrysler is a better value; why haven't they been able convience the buying public?

 

And, how long does it take you to custom order a US car? Last custom order car I bought from GM took 12 weeks to get........I can custom order a BMW 650 and have it delivered in 4-6 weeks! All the way from Germany!!

 

I respect your point of view; but, this is a free society and buyers are "voting" (by buying) for the auto maker they feel gives them the best overall value........and it is NOT Ford, nor GM, nor Chrysler! Something has to change or they will go belly up!

 

Same thing is happening in this country with airlines.......fly Delta or American and get mediocre service , delayed flights with a softfrink and a bag of peanuts.......fly KLM or Copa or Taca or Air Jamaica..........and you will see what I mean.

 

......and why did the military buy Air Bus refulling planes instead of Boeing? I think for the same reason that 10,000,000 folks bought Toyota.

 

In my opinion one of our biggest issue as a society is the entitlement mentallity we have.

 

 

 

You can believe whatever you choose to believe. Like I said, people tend to believe just about anything that is put in print or broadcasted on television or radio.

 

We have BMW here and you can't order a car and have it in 4-6 weeks.

 

I sure wish we could get more of the new X6. I could get MSRP and sell one a day if we could get them. I get more calls on these than we did on the GT500 when it first came out.

 

SUV sales are in the toilet yet a lot of people are wanting this new X6 that is over $60K. Why I have no idea, but people are lined up wanting one.

 

Toyota probably makes more than $10K per car. Ford builds $10k profit into every car they make. With toyota having much lower costs than Ford to produce a car they are most likely making a lot more.

 

As for toyota getting into the truck market, they aren't doing very well at all with that. Of course if people really knew the difference between a quality built vehicle then that would certainly explain why they are not doing well with their trucks. But it is probably the economy and gas prices. If they think their cars are better then I imagine they would have the same delusional mispercerption about their trucks being better as well.

 

Sure, they spent some money here building plants. Lower labor. They can build them here even cheaper and send more tax free profits back to japan! So keep supporting them. Someday you will be stuck working for them and making a lot less. If not you in your life time, your kids will. Thanks a lot Dad!

[DDT]

Well, I can refute this one to a certain degree. That whole contract is in jeopardy right now for several reasons. First, it was challenged by the US companies (Boeing). Secondly, they (the AF) has learned of numerous "issues" with the AirBus product. Lastly, AirBus is a joint European venture that was started as a way to compete with the US companies. One of the strategies of AirBus was to be partly state-funded (think pseudo-socialism here) so that way it could keep its "costs down" and therefore able to make a similar product to the US companies at a cheaper price. So with an AirBus aircraft, we (the US) gets more "bang for the buck", however at what cost? By buying a foreign piece of military hardware, not only do you undercut our own US companies but bring in a whole slew of other factors.

 

Ya like if we ever go to WAR with the country we purchase military hardware from????????? :fool:

[LuisA]

I'll let it rest ...... I own a GT500, don't I? Actually I have owned two of them! And will buy a KR if I can get for a reasonable price.

 

But.......one final comment......

 

And who did I support?

 

Final assembly = US

Transmission = Mexico

Tires = ?

Battery =?

Electrical components = ?

Wheel = probably China

Castings =?

 

I woudl be willing to bet a buck that at least 1/2 of the cost into the GT500 comes from other than US? Isn't the Mustand as AMerican as apple pie, french fries and Coke?

 

Following the legal deffinition, can you tell me which is the country of origin for the GT500?

 

Good night!

[ShelbyDude]

I'll let it rest ...... I own a GT500, don't I? Actually I have owned two of them! And will buy a KR if I can get for a reasonable price.

 

But.......one final comment......

 

And who did I support?

 

Final assembly = US

Transmission = Mexico

Tires = ?

Battery =?

Electrical components = ?

Wheel = probably China

Castings =?

 

I woudl be willing to bet a buck that at least 1/2 of the cost into the GT500 comes from other than US? Isn't the Mustand as AMerican as apple pie, french fries and Coke?

 

Following the legal deffinition, can you tell me which is the country of origin for the GT500?

 

Good night!

 

 

 

US

 

Built by Americans by an American owned company.

 

If you like the idea of parts being made by other countries then just keep buying all their products. If you want to stop it and force American companies to build all of their parts used in the US then support them by buying only products made by them.

 

It started with buying parts from other countries because it was cheaper than producing them here. We as a people forced them to do that when we started buying the same products made by other countries because we wanted to save a buck where we could buy them cheaper. American companies had no choice but to outsource for parts they could buy cheaper just to remain competitive and be able to stay in business.

 

It started with just buying parts. Now we are buying the complete products. Next there won't be any American companies left to buy anything from. This country's entire back bone that makes our economy function is being ripped right out from under are noses and we are to blind to see it. Instead we make lame excuses over quality, service, parts being made from other countries anyway, plants being built in other countries anyway, and on and on.

 

It us that have forced our industries out of this country over saving a buck and buying cheaper products from foreign countries. It isn't going to just stop there. It is only going to get worse as we drive out every single American company there is and completely wipe out our entire industry.

 

America has been up for sale at fire sale prices and we have allowed this to happen because we are to busy with our heads buried in the sand trying to save a dollar here and there and we make lame excuses to justify selling out our own country.

 

I'd say the legal definition of that is treason!

 

If you want this country to remain free and prosper you need to step up and do you part by supporting American companies. Period! No exceptions!

[LuisA]

SD,

I think you miss my point. Just because the car's final assembly is in US doesn't mean that the stuff that goes into it is from the US!

 

Ford an American owned company? How do you know? How can you make that statement? Ford is a public Company and as such anyone can have stocks. It would be real interesting to know how much of Ford stocks is owned by foreign folks and foreign companies.

 

I support American made products and try to buy them as often as I can........but, go to the mall and try to buy a pair of shoes made in the US, or a shirt.

 

In my view, the US will maintain it's world supremacy for as long as it produces the food to feed the world; but sadly, even in thsi arena, we are doing everything we can to "export" our food production elsewhere.

 

In today's world I do not think you will ever get a car 100% built in X country.......like it used to be. Buying an American branded car doesn't guarantee you anything!