How Likely Is Bankruptcy For Big Three?

[formervettowner]

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp...ig-three/121456

 

If Ford should be the one to file I dont know that they will have to honor extended warranites. Factory ones should be all right.

[gradona]

I have worked for Ford dealerships since 1983. I don't really think Bankrupptcy is in the future but I do believe things are as bad as I have ever seen. I think the pockets are deep enough to ward off the demise of the Company but I also think (Know) that there are huge changes in store for the future. Most of the changes are going to be borne by the Dealers. You are going to see the little Dealers go away. You are also going to see less flexibility in the pricing structures. We are already getting hit with new and, in my opinion, unfair changes in business policy from Ford. I am a Parts Dept. Manager. I got notice today that it Ford is now going to charge me $650.00 per quarter to have my parts delivered to my Dealership. Unpresidented. There are also going to be cuts in After Warranty Money that helps dedicated Ford owners and cuts in Loaner car assistance for service customers.

 

The bottom line is that it won't be Ford going Bankrupt but it will be a lot of Dealers going Bankrupt because Ford is going to make sure that they cover their ass.

[ShelbyDude]

If one files the other two will likely be forced to file.

[vbalouzian]

IMHO

this was a long time coming, there has been no vision at FORD and GM for a long time; lets see only good sellers are truck and Retro cars Hemm!

Dodge hase been putting out Crap from the time it was bailed out and ford and GM will put out the Crap because The taxpayer will bail them out.

 

Let the strong survive nad the weak perish; well in the car business anyway.

[stump_breaker]

So if FORD files what will happen to SAI?

[ShelbyDude]

So if FORD files what will happen to SAI?

 

 

Why would SAI be affected? If Ford files it will be to reorganize and be able to stay competitive with the other manufacturer that filed.

 

Even if Ford decided to cut SVT completely, they can still send cars to SAI to converts into whatever they are wanting build at SAI in the future.

[mr4teth]

If one files the other two will likely be forced to file.

 

I hope the big three can get things straightened out ... If not it could really be detrimental to our economy! There are so many companies, industries and jobs that are directly connected to the automotive manufactures and dealerships! That's why I go nuts every time I hear people talking about buying Toyota's, Nissan's, Honda's and all the rest of the rice burners out there ... and for those who say well they're built here in the US yes they are, but by none union people who are under paid and where do you think their profits go .... not back into our economy!

[ShelbyDude]

I hope the big three can get things straightened out ... If not it could really be detrimental to our economy! There are so many companies, industries and jobs that are directly connected to the automotive manufactures and dealerships! That's why I go nuts every time I hear people talking about buying Toyota's, Nissan's, Honda's and all the rest of the rice burners out there ... and for those who say well there built here in the US yes they are, but by none union people who are under paid and where do you think their profits go .... not back into our economy!

 

 

That is exactly right. The foreign companies can build cheaper, because they don't have the same unions that cost so much, they can get huge tax incentives to build their plants here, they get to send all their profits back to their country and not paying taxes on it here, they get to give their employees a 401K instead of paying them good pension for the rest of their lives after putting in 30 years and being able to retire at 48 if they started at 18, they get to pay lower wages, and after you drill these facts into some peoples heads, then they try to play the quality MYTH card to justify buying their products.

 

What most people just don't get is that everytime they buy something that isn't made by an American OWNED company they are just selling their jobs out in the future. Sooner or later it will all catch up to them and it will affect the company they work for regardless of what industry or business they are in. It will be a domino effect that will hit every single American eventually. One day in the not to far future, we will ALL be working for a foreign owned company and earning a lot less.

[blkGT500nCA]

I'm proud to be an american but, my honda gets 33-37 miles per gallon.

 

and my toyota will probably run 200k miles w/ only oil changes.

 

More than i can say for my old ranger or focus.

 

that is a fact.

 

brian

[formervettowner]

Why would SAI be affected? If Ford files it will be to reorganize and be able to stay competitive with the other manufacturer that filed.

 

Even if Ford decided to cut SVT completely, they can still send cars to SAI to converts into whatever they are wanting build at SAI in the future.

 

 

If Ford should file it could hurt SAI because they negotiate with their vendors and only pay pennies on the dollar owed in some cases. They reorganize which voids union contracts. Vendors will still do business with the big three because what choice do they have. The big three are the only game in town, but in return the vendors will have to make cut backs with-in their own company because their income will be less. IS SAI UNION????? Lets face everybody loses, dealers, vendors, employees, consumers. It sucks.

[sharabi]

Merger was discussed and shot down by execs between Ford/GM....who knows if any substance to the rumors then that could be a way out.

[BlackShelby]

That is exactly right. The foreign companies can build cheaper, because they don't have the same unions that cost so much, they can get huge tax incentives to build their plants here, they get to send all their profits back to their country and not paying taxes on it here, they get to give their employees a 401K instead of paying them good pension for the rest of their lives after putting in 30 years and being able to retire at 48 if they started at 18, they get to pay lower wages, and after you drill these facts into some peoples heads, then they try to play the quality MYTH card to justify buying their products.

 

What most people just don't get is that everytime they buy something that isn't made by an American OWNED company they are just selling their jobs out in the future. Sooner or later it will all catch up to them and it will affect the company they work for regardless of what industry or business they are in. It will be a domino effect that will hit every single American eventually. One day in the not to far future, we will ALL be working for a foreign owned company and earning a lot less.

 

+1

Well said!!!!

[ShelbyDude]

I'm proud to be an american but, my honda gets 33-37 miles per gallon.

 

and my toyota will probably run 200k miles w/ only oil changes.

 

More than i can say for my old ranger or focus.

 

that is a fact.

 

brian

 

 

I have seen numerous Rangers come through here with over 300K - 400K miles on them.

 

A guy that works in our service department has a Ranger with close to 300K miles on it.

 

There are also a lot Toyota trucks with RUSTED out frames. A lot with engine sludge problems.

 

But that's OK, because someday when all Americans are employed for foreign owned companies, at least they can say, well at least I get 37 miles per gallon in my frame rusted out, sludged up engine toyota!

 

So while I may be earning a LOT LESS to make a living and while there won't be any retirement to count on, at least I got to save a couple miles per gallon in my Honda and Toyota, even though they really don't get any better mileage. I just believed what they put on their window stickers! I didn't know Toyota's mileage was based on 45 mph compared to other manufacturers that were based on 65 mph!!! LOL

[ShelbyDude]

I'm proud to be an american but, my honda gets 33-37 miles per gallon.

 

and my toyota will probably run 200k miles w/ only oil changes.

 

More than i can say for my old ranger or focus.

 

that is a fact.

 

brian

 

 

How can someone claim to be proud and support foreign companies over American companies at the same time???

[Dellcobra]

I think if Ford or GM file it will be to break some long term contracts that are hurting them. The company in the worse shape is Chrysler. They maybe the first to file.

 

Ford is going to be bringing some of the European cars to America sooner then they planned. This will help them since they are small cars getting good MPG.

 

Also Ford's sales were not down as much as others for this last quarter.

 

Toyota is hurting becasue of its new truck. They also are now finding out what happens when you start building alot of cars each year. Their quality has fallen off and Ford and GMs has gone up.

[ff500]

I'm proud to be an american but, my honda gets 33-37 miles per gallon.

 

and my toyota will probably run 200k miles w/ only oil changes.

 

More than i can say for my old ranger or focus.

 

that is a fact.

 

brian

 

Those are harsh words.

[Cobramach1]

That is exactly right. The foreign companies can build cheaper, because they don't have the same unions that cost so much, they can get huge tax incentives to build their plants here, they get to send all their profits back to their country and not paying taxes on it here, they get to give their employees a 401K instead of paying them good pension for the rest of their lives after putting in 30 years and being able to retire at 48 if they started at 18, they get to pay lower wages, and after you drill these facts into some peoples heads, then they try to play the quality MYTH card to justify buying their products.

 

What most people just don't get is that everytime they buy something that isn't made by an American OWNED company they are just selling their jobs out in the future. Sooner or later it will all catch up to them and it will affect the company they work for regardless of what industry or business they are in. It will be a domino effect that will hit every single American eventually. One day in the not to far future, we will ALL be working for a foreign owned company and earning a lot less.

 

This is definitely one of the most well written statements I've seen in a long time regarding this subject. Very concise and to the point and all points are made! I totally agree and couldn't have said it better.

 

I'm proud to be an american but, my honda gets 33-37 miles per gallon.

 

and my toyota will probably run 200k miles w/ only oil changes.

 

More than i can say for my old ranger or focus.

 

that is a fact.

 

brian

 

 

How can someone claim to be proud and support foreign companies over American companies at the same time???

 

Once again, I agree! I don't understand the support of foreign companies. I always try to buy American whenever I can and have the choice. Within the auto industry the choice is pretty simple. My television or DVD player, not so simple.

 

Since I recently moved to Michigan I'm seeing first hand the effects of what not buying American does to an economy. Now more than ever I'm extremely vigilant in supporting American companies.

[ShelbyDude]

Those are harsh words.

 

 

Yeah, it sounds to me that what he just said is, I'm proud to be American, but I'll sell out if it will save me a couple of bucks! Not THAT proud! America is up for sale!

[Glenracer]

I'm proud to be an american but, my honda gets 33-37 miles per gallon.

 

and my toyota will probably run 200k miles w/ only oil changes.

 

More than i can say for my old ranger or focus.

 

that is a fact.

 

brian

I am tired of this......If giving up 3,5 or even 10 miles to the gallon so I dont have to drive (made in japan) then I'll keep the Ford. And the other misconception is that only cars made in japan can last 200,000 miles is a bunch of baloney. Hell, there are a multitude of American cars and truck all over the US that have well over 200,000 miles on them and are still in use every day. It comes down to how well a person wants to take care of his car or truck. I am not going to say that I agree with every thing that Ford or GM or Chrysler does...a lot of the things they have done is downright stupid but.....when Ford, GM, and Chrysler are given the same sweet deals (free land,tax breaks, no unions etc) as all the japanese car companies get from us the taxpayers, lets see how well they can compete and if they fail at that then goodbye but until there is a LEVEL playing filed in our own country then it is only a matter of time. And these damned car magazines and consumer reports crap do not help because when was the last time you saw anyone say anything good about American cars or trucks? We were making cars and trucks that was instrumental in building our economy 100 years ago and won 2 world wars which without the work of American car companies we woulkd not be where we are today and what was toyota and honda and mitsubishi doing during this time? making bicycles , sewing machines and/or supplying the war machine for the empire of japan. Japanese cars are machines...inanimate without humans but its the way we look at things and the political end and the money that just ticks me off. I apologize Brian, this is not aimed toward you but I am just so sick of hearing how good this stuff from japan is. Just my worthless opinion

[Cobramach1]

Yes, American cars last just as long as do the foreign vehicles. I grew up with mostly Ford on the farm. Only two times did we not have Ford vehicles but they were still American vehicles, one was an International semi and the other a GMC 2 ton truck. However, going to my point of vehicles lasting, we've run well over 200k miles on every Ford that we've owned. Only one Ford did not make it over 100k miles and that was a '79 Cougar XR7 that broke a timing chain which in turn did some internal damage. For all the vehicles that we've had over the years, I would say that was pretty good. My mom ran a '78 Bronco to 280k miles before the crankshaft broke. She ran plenty of Broncos since then and a few expeditions up to nearly 200k miles with absolutely no problems and just last year got herself an Excursion with a diesel in it figuring that she'll be able to run this vehicle likely up to a half million miles or better. When Ford came out with the diesels in the F-250/350's we started switching over to them as we could afford to buy used ones. We got well over 200k out of the 6.9l engines before we sold them as we did with the early 7.3l's as well. The newer powerstroke 7.3's have shown to be fantastic engines. We have one F-350 that has 380k miles on and the engine does not use oil and the transmission is still original as well. Glenracer hit it on the head that with proper maintenance vehicles last. When they aren't maintained is when they have problems.

[sharabi]

I used to have Honda/BMW M3/

 

Now i find that my SHELBY GT500/Explorer more appealing to me....i just fell in love with ford....lol

 

I guess love from the first DRIVE.....

 

 

No more 4 bangers for me or inline 6

 

Fire up the V8 and let me enjoy the rumble........!!

[Boss Doctor]

I believe the government will bail them out just as they did Chrysler.

[gradona]

I'm close enough to retirement that I'm just gonna grab a box of Popcorn, Open a Beer and sit back and watch the show

[Glenracer]

Yes, American cars last just as long as do the foreign vehicles. I grew up with mostly Ford on the farm. Only two times did we not have Ford vehicles but they were still American vehicles, one was an International semi and the other a GMC 2 ton truck. However, going to my point of vehicles lasting, we've run well over 200k miles on every Ford that we've owned. Only one Ford did not make it over 100k miles and that was a '79 Cougar XR7 that broke a timing chain which in turn did some internal damage. For all the vehicles that we've had over the years, I would say that was pretty good. My mom ran a '78 Bronco to 280k miles before the crankshaft broke. She ran plenty of Broncos since then and a few expeditions up to nearly 200k miles with absolutely no problems and just last year got herself an Excursion with a diesel in it figuring that she'll be able to run this vehicle likely up to a half million miles or better. When Ford came out with the diesels in the F-250/350's we started switching over to them as we could afford to buy used ones. We got well over 200k out of the 6.9l engines before we sold them as we did with the early 7.3l's as well. The newer powerstroke 7.3's have shown to be fantastic engines. We have one F-350 that has 380k miles on and the engine does not use oil and the transmission is still original as well. Glenracer hit it on the head that with proper maintenance vehicles last. When they aren't maintained is when they have problems.

Just like I said....What Cobramach1 is stating is easy to believe...this is common...I have a Powerstroke 7.3 with 336,000 miles and it runs great, the only thing replaced? A cam position sensor that failed at 97,000 miles but since Ford and Navistar had such faith in the engines and put a factory 100,000 mile warranty on the engines , there was no out of pocket expense to me. Hey toyota...where is the 100,000 mile warranty on

the tundra diesels that pull gigantic trailers down the road every day of the year? Oh yeah...you dont have one.

[stump_breaker]

Yep. FORD ranks #1 and #10 for American made based on domestic components in the vehicles.

GM ranks 2nd,3rd,4th,8th.

Toyota ranks 5th and 6th.

Honda ranks 7th and Chrysler 9th.

clicky

 

This is interesting - "What about iconic American cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Impala and Chrysler 300? Index placers, they are not. The Michigan-built Mustang has a disappointing 65 percent domestic-parts content rating, while the 300 and Impala are built in Canada."

Nothing is more American than the Mustang, correct??

 

Surprised?

 

Oh wait, the arguments is about where the profits go, that's right. I forgot.

 

Ford to Nearly Double Purchase of China-Made Parts

"Ford will buy $2.5 billion to $3 billion in auto parts in China, William Ford Jr., the carmaker’s chairman, said Thursday in Beijing. That compared with $1.6 billion to $1.7 billion bought last year from China.

This is from OCT 06

 

Ford looks to buy more parts made in Canada.(News)

"The automaker plans to increase spending among Canadian suppliers 56 percent, from about $3.1 billion annually, equivalent to $4.5 billion Canadian, to about $4.9 billion by 2005."

report from 2005

 

Old Ford Festiva and Tracer were imported from S. Korea and Mexico.

 

New 2010 Festiva to be built in Mexico

 

And then we have the FORD-Mazda Marriage - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda

 

So is your car an import or American?

 

"While imports have been gaining ground in terms of units sold during the 2000s and have regained roughly the same market share they held in 1992, the sales of domestic vehicles are still more than double those of imported vehicles. It should be noted however that the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics "Includes cars produced in Canada and Mexico" as domestic vehicles as both countries are part of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)." clicky WOW! Domestic is defined as made in Mexico and/or Canada? But wait a minute.....

 

 

 

I understand and sympathize with the ideals of "American made" but we are now in a global economy and all the spitting, cussing, screaming and name calling is not going to change that. I grow so tired of these arguments and how it's insinuated that people who buy "imports" are not as smart as people who buy "domestic".

If giving up 3,5 or even 10 miles to the gallon so I dont have to drive (made in japan) then I'll keep the Ford.

Seriously? Do you REALLY want to stand by that statement with the current uproar of Persian gulf oil?

 

If one is not willing to change - weather that person deems it necessary or not - then one is destined to fade away. The big three are in trouble because they have allowed the tail to wag the dog. Period. If they wnat to catch up they need to change. Heck even the AMERICAN OWNED AND OPERATED company I work at is redesigning it's process based on TOYOTA LEAN MANUFACTURING PROCESSES. Yep. You read correctly. So please continue to spin it however you want. Believe you're putting your money back into America by buying "domestic" all you want and be diligent in your heated discussions. It makes for a good chuckle.

[DubbsFaris]

I hope the big three can get things straightened out ... If not it could really be detrimental to our economy! There are so many companies, industries and jobs that are directly connected to the automotive manufactures and dealerships! That's why I go nuts every time I hear people talking about buying Toyota's, Nissan's, Honda's and all the rest of the rice burners out there ... and for those who say well they're built here in the US yes they are, but by none union people who are under paid and where do you think their profits go .... not back into our economy!

 

 

We have a Toyota plant here in San Antonio that provides over 3 billion annually to our economy- there are 47 local vendors that supply the plant and over 3000 employees that would tell you their pay is great!

 

That's the problem these days- people think "american" in a world economy. Toyota is just as much American with plants all over the U.S. as Ford is with plants OUTSIDE of the U.S.

 

And the union card? oh, please...I was a Steward in one of the biggest...and frankly, they are outdated and part of the reason we have these problems in the big three...

 

GM has to employ 3000 "standby employees' that are paid without working one minute...can you say fogetaboutit?

[sharabi]

Yep. FORD ranks #1 and #10 for American made based on domestic components in the vehicles.

GM ranks 2nd,3rd,4th,8th.

Toyota ranks 5th and 6th.

Honda ranks 7th and Chrysler 9th.

clicky

 

This is interesting - "What about iconic American cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Impala and Chrysler 300? Index placers, they are not. The Michigan-built Mustang has a disappointing 65 percent domestic-parts content rating, while the 300 and Impala are built in Canada."

Nothing is more American than the Mustang, correct??

 

Surprised?

 

Oh wait, the arguments is about where the profits go, that's right. I forgot.

 

Ford to Nearly Double Purchase of China-Made Parts

"Ford will buy $2.5 billion to $3 billion in auto parts in China, William Ford Jr., the carmaker’s chairman, said Thursday in Beijing. That compared with $1.6 billion to $1.7 billion bought last year from China.

This is from OCT 06

 

Ford looks to buy more parts made in Canada.(News)

"The automaker plans to increase spending among Canadian suppliers 56 percent, from about $3.1 billion annually, equivalent to $4.5 billion Canadian, to about $4.9 billion by 2005."

report from 2005

 

Old Ford Festiva and Tracer were imported from S. Korea and Mexico.

 

New 2010 Festiva to be built in Mexico

 

And then we have the FORD-Mazda Marriage - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda

 

So is your car an import or American?

 

"While imports have been gaining ground in terms of units sold during the 2000s and have regained roughly the same market share they held in 1992, the sales of domestic vehicles are still more than double those of imported vehicles. It should be noted however that the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics "Includes cars produced in Canada and Mexico" as domestic vehicles as both countries are part of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)." clicky WOW! Domestic is defined as made in Mexico and/or Canada? But wait a minute.....

 

 

 

I understand and sympathize with the ideals of "American made" but we are now in a global economy and all the spitting, cussing, screaming and name calling is not going to change that. I grow so tired of these arguments and how it's insinuated that people who buy "imports" are not as smart as people who buy "domestic".

Seriously? Do you REALLY want to stand by that statement with the current uproar of Persian gulf oil?

 

If one is not willing to change - weather that person deems it necessary or not - then one is destined to fade away. The big three are in trouble because they have allowed the tail to wag the dog. Period. If they wnat to catch up they need to change. Heck even the AMERICAN OWNED AND OPERATED company I work at is redesigning it's process based on TOYOTA LEAN MANUFACTURING PROCESSES. Yep. You read correctly. So please continue to spin it however you want. Believe you're putting your money back into America by buying "domestic" all you want and be diligent in your heated discussions. It makes for a good chuckle.

 

What you say holds truth in it.....Mazda...is it foreign or domestic...why do we see it under the ford umbrella?

Volvo...is it foreign or domestic? Jaguar?....the list goes on and on....

[gradona]

Almost every Mazda "B" Series truck built over the last 10 years is actually a Ford Ranger. The lines are very Blurry between Foreign and Domestic.

 

I drive a Ford Five Hundred as my DD. Volvo Chassis, Volvo Drivetrain.

[sharabi]

Exactly that is the point...with global economy the lines are blurred.....

[blkGT500nCA]

hmmm.