Official TSB #08-16-4: Clutch Drag REPAIR RESULTS

[cammerunderpressure]

It's only if you have a problem.

 

No problem = no need to change anything.

 

But with this problem, it seems that if those of us that currently don't have the problems, very well might develop them down the road. I am in no hurry, trust me, to have the dealership tear my car apart, however, I am being stupid if I drive it really nice during the next couple of years, only to develop the problem out of warranty.

 

Do I need to spend some time in "stop and go" traffic, so that my car develops the problem?

 

Will people who drive their cars carefully to not overheat the flywheel (not saying it is possible to avoid it, but lets say it is for this), going to find it a negative when selling many years down the road when a buyer asks "Has the flywheel / clutch TSB been performed on this car?"

 

I personally think to protect future buyers, Ford should consider this a recall item and fix them all....

 

I think they recalled the '99's because they didn't make the advertised power, if I rememberl correctly. I think having to shell out thousands down the road, when out of warranty, to fix a poorly designed flywheel and all the carnage it causes, is a bigger deal than that.

[Son of GT]

I'm not really sure what the debate is here. FoMoCo has identified a fundamental design flaw with the flywheel which in turn causes degradation of the driveline components behind it. Some of us that have had the TSB completed have less than 2,000 miles on their cars, and some as high as 21,000 miles, but all have had cars that have exhibited the noted issues at one point or another and those issues all went away after the repairs were completed.

 

This issue will rear its head at one point or another, and if it happens outside of the warranty period, then owners are looking at a $6,000 dollar repair bill. Take a good look at GT500 Flyboy's clutch and flywheel assembly that was just replaced back in June. Look at all of the heat damage that occurred in that short amount of time. What does anyone else think will happen with their cars? This failure is inevitable.

 

With 21,000 miles and two clutch and flywheel assemblies repaired under warranty/TSB, my sage advice to all owners is to take your car out and drive it in a stop-and-go traffic jam for at least 30 minutes then see how your clutch feels and transmission shifts after that. Your first symptom after that drive will be a tremendous amount of clutch chatter followed by gear crunching shifting into 2nd. The next thing that will happen will be after the car has completely cooled down overnight. Your clutch pedal will then feel spongy, and shifting from 2nd into 3rd will require you to force the shifter into 3rd gear because the syncros were baked during the stop-and-go heat up and now they are bumping.

 

Do I think that this issue should evolve from a TSB to an outright recall? Of course, but that will only happen if FoMoCo and the DOT decides that it should be one, and outside of the anomaly recall that happened with the 1999 Cobra's, recalls are generally announced for safety related defects.

[Grabber]

I too am a double transplant recipient that agrees 100% with What Son of GT is saying.

 

However....I think the Bill will be closer to 6K if you have to pay for this out of pocket.

 

This is what the dealer would charge for the TSB now at the 7.4 hours that Ford allows.:

 

....but we all know that when it's coming out of our pocket....it cost's more because the hours go up.

[Son of GT]

Agreed!

[cammerunderpressure]

Do I think that this issue should evolve from a TSB to an outright recall? Of course, but that will only happen if FoMoCo and the DOT decides that it should be one, and outside of the anomaly recall that happened with the 1999 Cobra's, recalls are generally announced for safety related defects.

 

I think several forum members have had there cars become undrivable while on the road, in some cases more than once. Since the parts in their cars are known to be of poor design that can't handle normal stop and go traffic, the same parts that are in every GT500 until the change was implemented, I could argue that this is a safety defect.

 

Catastrophic clutch failure is a safety defect, and when a car becomes undrivable, I would consider that catastrophic.

 

The very real possibility exists that a current owners will baby these cars, then sell them years down the road to an unsuspecting new owner, that will inturn drive the car like a regular car, day to day, in stop and go traffic, just to have catastrophic clutch failure result in an accident. This is as real of a possibility as many of the recalls I have seen implemented.

[shelby111]

I too am a double transplant recipient that agrees 100% with What Son of GT is saying.

 

However....I think the Bill will be closer to 6K if you have to pay for this out of pocket.

 

This is what the dealer would charge for the TSB now at the 7.4 hours that Ford allows.:

 

....but we all know that when it's coming out of our pocket....it cost's more because the hours go up.

 

Any idea how profitable or non profitable it is for the dealer to dp the TBS? When negociating with the dealer ver warantee work, it helps a lot to know what is a stake for them.

[tlitz]

Any idea how profitable or non profitable it is for the dealer to dp the TBS? When negociating with the dealer ver warantee work, it helps a lot to know what is a stake for them.

I am having this TBS done on my Shelby.

I noticed a problem after I had driven a few hundred miles.

I was told by Ford at the time that all was normal.

I do not have a lot of miles 2787 which is mostly hi-way.

I have the oil changed every 3 months because Shelby is sitting, and last visit to my Ford dealer was told about TBS.

So parts are ordered and should be here in a week are so.

Ford should recall all the Shelbys that were done during the period of this problem.

Todd

[Grabber]

Any idea how profitable or non profitable it is for the dealer to dp the TBS? When negociating with the dealer ver warantee work, it helps a lot to know what is a stake for them.

 

This is a very good question that is best answered by one of our dealer members.

[Joker45]

Mine is going in Tuesday for the TSB.

[Grabber]

Mine is going in Tuesday for the TSB.

 

The TSB could stand for your Avatar too.

 

Top Sure Bounces.

[frydguy79]

well as far as the dealer side goes, mine will be the first one we do, but usually the time that ford pays the dealer for is way short of the actual time it takes to 90% of the work.

think about it 7.4 hrs to remove the trany and rebuild it and to reinstall it and a new clutch and flywheel, i know i cant do it, how much actual time it take for you to get yours done grabber?

and as far as money goes it is what ever the amount that ford pays the dealer for warranty work, which is often way less than customer pay too, our warranty work pay's us about $7.00 less per hour than customer pay,

[Grabber]

well as far as the dealer side goes, mine will be the first one we do, but usually the time that ford pays the dealer for is way short of the actual time it takes to 90% of the work.

think about it 7.4 hrs to remove the trany and rebuild it and to reinstall it and a new clutch and flywheel, i know i cant do it, how much actual time it take for you to get yours done grabber?

and as far as money goes it is what ever the amount that ford pays the dealer for warranty work, which is often way less than customer pay too, our warranty work pay's us about $7.00 less per hour than customer pay,

 

My tranny was a new one, so it did not need to be rebuilt, so I don't know how long it takes to re-build it with the syncro and shaft and seal kit.

 

It took my Sr. Master tech. 3.4 hours to pulll my tranny, install a new pilot bearing, clutch, flywheel, teflon lube and then put my new tranny back in and test drive it.

 

This leaves 4 hours left on the clock according to the Ford TSB to rebuild the tranny. I will know how long it takes to rebuild the tranny next week because my Sr. Master tech is doing BadTony's on Tuesday. Then after he does BadTony's, he's going to rebuild my original core tranny that came out of my car.

 

I will let you know how much time that takes.

[Son of GT]

I have the 8175 in my car and my dealer rebuilt it with the TSB components. They booked 7.4 total hours for all the work, but did not break down the labor hours just for the transmission work.

 

Based on Rob's numbers, we can assume that it takes 4.0 hours to rebuild the trans.

[Grabber]

I do know that they told BadTony that they would need his car for 2 days.

[Son of GT]

Yup; two days it is.

[Grabber]

....another cost that will not be covered if you do this work out of warranty is a rental car.

 

My dealer has been nice enough to provide me with rental cars if the work is warranty work and it takes all day.

[Son of GT]

Yup, me too.

[frydguy79]

....another cost that will not be covered if you do this work out of warranty is a rental car.

 

My dealer has been nice enough to provide me with rental cars if the work is warranty work and it takes all day.

 

 

I cheat i'm the dealer

[ShelbyDude]

I'm pretty sure Ford pays a lower rate per hour than what the dealers may charge normally. Then they go by the book on how much time the particular job may take and that is what they pay.

 

For example, say they pay $50 hour for warranty work. They say the job should take 3 hours. So they will pay $150 for labor. If the job takes the mechanic 6 hours they only get paid for the 3 hours. If the mechanic does the job in one hour, they still get paid for the 3 hours.

 

The way the mechanics make money here is by being able to get the job done sooner than what the book shows for how long it takes. If a customer needs a repair that the book says it will take 4 hours they charge 4 hours labor. If the mechanic finishes in 3 hours he picks up an extra hour pay on that job. If he takes longer he gets paid less based on an hourly rate. The more jobs they get done within their 40 hour work week the more they make.

 

Some dealers may just pay an hourly rate regardless of how fast they do a job, but if they do that the mechanic has no incentive to get the job done quicker and tends to just coast along to get their 40 hours in.

[Joker45]

I was told 2 days to get mine done as well.

 

SD,

 

That was the way it worked also for motorcycles when I worked at a dealership back in the day. If you were decent you could almost always beat the book time on labor.

[sprint200]

Update:

 

After 100 miles (92 of them on the track :happy feet: )

 

Clutch action is still smooth, no chatter, no grinding. It's a heck of a lot easier to load on the trailer this way

 

I'm having to get used to where the clutch engages on the pedal stroke. I missed a couple of 2nd to 3rd shifts because I was not getting the pedal low enough for the new setup. I moved my seat forward just a tick and problem solved.

[shelby111]

I'm pretty sure Ford pays a lower rate per hour than what the dealers may charge normally. Then they go by the book on how much time the particular job may take and that is what they pay.

 

For example, say they pay $50 hour for warranty work. They say the job should take 3 hours. So they will pay $150 for labor. If the job takes the mechanic 6 hours they only get paid for the 3 hours. If the mechanic does the job in one hour, they still get paid for the 3 hours.

 

The way the mechanics make money here is by being able to get the job done sooner than what the book shows for how long it takes. If a customer needs a repair that the book says it will take 4 hours they charge 4 hours labor. If the mechanic finishes in 3 hours he picks up an extra hour pay on that job. If he takes longer he gets paid less based on an hourly rate. The more jobs they get done within their 40 hour work week the more they make.

 

Some dealers may just pay an hourly rate regardless of how fast they do a job, but if they do that the mechanic has no incentive to get the job done quicker and tends to just coast along to get their 40 hours in.

 

Based on what I'm reading so far from the dealers, it seems like the TSB work is profitable enough for them to want to do the work? Is that fair to say?

[Grabber]

Based on what I'm reading so far from the dealers, it seems like the TSB work is profitable enough for them to want to do the work? Is that fair to say?

I will reserve to comment on this until after I find out how much time it takes the Sr. Master Tech at my dealership to re-build BadTony's Tranny and my core next week.

[GT500FLYBOY]

Based on what I'm reading so far from the dealers, it seems like the TSB work is profitable enough for them to want to do the work? Is that fair to say?

 

My guy said he could do it in one day. The problem - he has been waiting for parts since last Tuesday. Each day something else shows up. First the flywheel, then the clutch, yesterday the tranny gears. He's now waiting for the slave cylinder - I think - or throw out bearing? He thought it would be a good idea to replace that as well - even though not listed in the TSB.

 

I did ask both the tech and the Ford FE if it would be better to skip the tranny rebuild since it is only a couple months old. They both agreed the tranny probably had all the correct pieces - though they were not certain, and there was concern over whether Ford would honor the service coverage for the dealer if they didn't do the TSB completely.

[Willie]

I think my experience is unique.

 

From day one, the clutch has chattered. Isn't this EVERYONE's experience? With around 6k miles, grinding into second gear at 6, rpms under WOT started. Then I ran the car at the track three times. Run #1: Everything seemed normal. Run #2: After staging the car, it started creeping forward even to the point where the pre-stage light went off. I had no idea what was going on at that time. I missed second gear on that pass. Undoubtedly because this gear became even harder to shift into and I could not do this quickly enough. Run #3: Creeping again.... had to put my foot on the brake, ruining my launch / reaction time. The next morning, the clutch felt "different".

 

A couple of months ago, I reported this problem to the dealership, just prior to hitting 12k miles. During this discussion, I was told the 12 / 12 phase of the warranty has nothing to do with this problem, that it's covered for 3 / 36....

 

Two nights ago, Friday 8/29/08, I ran the car again. Run #1: Missed second gear (again). Once back in the pits, the smell of clutch material was very obvious. Run #2: After a cool-down of 45 minutes, I ran the car again making sure not to miss second gear (I yanked on the shifter as hard as I could, not worrying about trying to shift quickly). In the pits again after the pass, I did not notice any smell. Run #3: Starting the car in the pits to make this pass, I tried to engage first gear. I could not get it into gear. I tried second. Same. I could not get it into any gear! I shut the engine off, then put the tranny into second gear, then restarted the engine. The car crept forward even with the clutch fully engaged. It was enough to drive the car home (I am very good at shifting without the clutch). Saturday morning I had the car towed to the dealership. I made the service writer get into my running car and asked him to try to shift it into any gear. He tried first gear with no luck. Hopefully I'll hear some news after Labor Day....

[SPRSNK]

SPR SNK

2008 Vert

Chatter and Grinding

Standard TSB items were installed. Car has 2k miles on it. First time in for anything.

Just got the car back. It's chatter and transmission noise is worse than before. Time for round 2 at the dealership.

 

2008 Coupe

Grinding and chatter

Standard TSB items were installed. Car has 3900 miles on it. First time in for the transmission.

100 miles: Alright so far. Transmission/clutch are getting rebuilt this winter after engine is put up to 800hp.

[1AZGT500]

What? That's the first I've heard of the TSB not solving all the world's problems. Are there anymore of us out there that the TSB didn't work for?

[RIRENTERGT500]

Full TSB Completed 8/28/2008. Well I am a bit dissapointed. At idle the clutch chatters more than before. The engagement of the clutch is almost at the top. While sitting on a hill waiting for the traffic light, I am having to give it more gas just to get it moving. I get chatter in first and second gear up to 1800 rpms. Not sure what the problem is. Any Ideas? My pedal as well was very very loose when i got the car back from the dealer, but it has slowely gotten harder.

[Grabber]

Full TSB Completed 8/28/2008. Well I am a bit dissapointed. At idle the clutch chatters more than before. The engagement of the clutch is almost at the top. While sitting on a hill waiting for the traffic light, I am having to give it more gas just to get it moving. I get chatter in first and second gear up to 1800 rpms. Not sure what the problem is. Any Ideas? My pedal as well was very very loose when i got the car back from the dealer, but it has slowely gotten harder.

 

It could be that the clutch hydrolics were not completely blead all the way. Next time you use your car try this. Before you start the car, pump the clutch pedal 20 times. Do this prior to starting the car for the next week and see if it works the air out.

[RIRENTERGT500]

It could be that the clutch hydrolics were not completely blead all the way. Next time you use your car try this. Before you start the car, pump the clutch pedal 20 times. Do this prior to starting the car for the next week and see if it works the air out.

 

I will give that a try. I went ahead and made an appointment with the service manager. Is there anyway they could have installed it incorrectly? How easy is it to mess this up?