Total Termination; will shelby conquer SVT's cobra?

[KCMO-GT500]

I'm kinda surprised no one has mentioned this one yet. I just got my latest copy of mm&ff in the mail yesterday, and found that it had an extensive article (7 pages) about the terminator vs the gt500. Contains a lot of factual discussion, and does not really end up taking a side, although they seem to feel that for now the terminator has the edge, but that the gt500 has a lot of potential, and may dethrone the terminator.

 

There are also 2 editorials on the gt500, both involving its price and/or its weight. They are not thrilled with either.

 

For those interested in the concept of tuning, this issue also has the first of 3 articles on Ford's electronic control unit. Looks like it will be a pretty technical set of articles.

[svttim]

I'm kinda surprised no one has mentioned this one yet. I just got my latest copy of mm&ff in the mail yesterday, and found that it had an extensive article (7 pages) about the terminator vs the gt500. Contains a lot of factual discussion, and does not really end up taking a side, although they seem to feel that for now the terminator has the edge, but that the gt500 has a lot of potential, and may dethrone the terminator.

 

There are also 2 editorials on the gt500, both involving its price and/or its weight. They are not thrilled with either.

 

For those interested in the concept of tuning, this issue also has the first of 3 articles on Ford's electronic control unit. Looks like it will be a pretty technical set of articles.

 

 

I read it too. From what I read, they concede the Shelby is faster stock but, and rightfully so, question if the Shelby will have the inpact on the street scene that the term did. My chrtsal ball says it will not but, sometimes it doesnt work so well

[Guest evilchris]

I read it too. From what I read, they concede the Shelby is faster stock but, and rightfully so, question if the Shelby will have the inpact on the street scene that the term did. My chrtsal ball says it will not but, sometimes it doesnt work so well

 

 

I think the GT500 could have impacted the scene, but since Ford stuck "Shelby" on the back too many old nostalgic guys bought the cars and will "baby" what was never meant to be babied. =)

[06ragtopGT]

I think traction is the biggest problem. More HP more traction issues.

 

I also think alot of people will add CAI and tune in time, its just too easy and makes such a difference and you can get keep your warranty (remove and reflash). Just me thinking again.

[TAHOE GT]

I think the GT500 could have impacted the scene, but since Ford stuck "Shelby" on the back too many old nostalgic guys bought the cars and will "baby" what was never meant to be babied. =)

 

 

Unfortunatly, at the current price point only the "nostalgic guys," and a few of us who have yet to grow-up, can afford the Shelby. I'd guess that 50% will baby them, 25% will drive them a fair bit of milage and maybe a 1/4 mile pass or two, 10% will drive them as intended, 5% will thrash them and 5% will time capsule them.

[SVTpower]

I just bought the issue today and read it..........no surprise, of course it is quicker and of course $$ is mentioned. Sure for the difference, you can mod the 03/04 cobra to be fast but others can also buy older foxes, go extreme with mods and be quicker than any year stang. Sure, most cars in a reasonable price range have gotton heavier with more safety features, more standard features etc.......Heck, the Challenger is rumoured to weigh 4100 lbs!!! Question is what do you really want?? Although we Canadians are paying more in Canadian pricing, most of us are not paying huge markups and that's the difference...................recently checked ebay and wow for those u.s. cars !!! Me, I'll be happy with mine, few mods and 500 rwhp when I'm done, slight lowering, and evenually nicer wheels. I will bet when Shelby does pass away, the Shelby name will be even more recognized ($$$) ..............vs a non-Shelby car though. Again, what do you really want??

[kaylan1521]

Unfortunatly, at the current price point only the "nostalgic guys," and a few of us who have yet to grow-up, can afford the Shelby. I'd guess that 50% will baby them, 25% will drive them a fair bit of milage and maybe a 1/4 mile pass or two, 10% will drive them as intended, 5% will thrash them and 5% will time capsule them.

 

Yeah. I'm in the 10%

[VNMOUS1]

I think the GT500 could have impacted the scene, but since Ford stuck "Shelby" on the back too many old nostalgic guys bought the cars and will "baby" what was never meant to be babied. =)

 

 

 

Careful there EC.. I'm a card carrying old fart and I drive the daylights outta mine.

 

 

bj

[Three Cobras]

Evil -

I've seen thirty-five year olds who are affected with (infected with?) creeping fartism. I've seen eighty year olds who act twenty. I'm with BJ, it's the attitude not the age that counts. I'm 57 and I ain't slowing down anytime soon. To anyone who tells me I an old fart, I just say " Remember, I've already lived to be my age, there's no guarantee you will." It beats the alternative. The ONLY way I'd go back to my twenties would be if I could do it knowing what I know now. 'Course then again, maybe I wouldn't make it to 57 if I did. Hmmmmm . . . My license plate says it all: YLD TANG.

[svttim]

I think the GT500 could have impacted the scene, but since Ford stuck "Shelby" on the back too many old nostalgic guys bought the cars and will "baby" what was never meant to be babied. =)

 

 

 

Damn, I agree Chris! And old is not an age thing, old is an attitude.

[GT500RagTop]

I think the GT500 could have impacted the scene, but since Ford stuck "Shelby" on the back too many old nostalgic guys bought the cars and will "baby" what was never meant to be babied. =)

 

 

I am in my mid 60's & have had my Shelby up to nearly 170mph. I would like to have been pulling your baby stoller behind me so you would reason to talk SHIx you must have been a rare baby case and had to wear diapers on your face

[BoneDoc]

I think the GT500 could have impacted the scene, but since Ford stuck "Shelby" on the back too many old nostalgic guys bought the cars and will "baby" what was never meant to be babied. =)

 

 

once again.... a post by EC is completely politically incorrect.... but probably true!

 

many buyers will be babyboomers... more conservative than young whippersnappers and less likely to flex the muscles on the street (with the exception of guys like, GT500Ragtop, who I would argue are the exception)

[iceman]

I thought it was a good article and even came close to buying an 03 the other day after reading it. I just don't care for the looks as much of the terminator so I am now wrestling with the cost/looks/availablity issues. There ate terminators out there to be had in the 20-30K range with very few miles so by the time you invest a litle in after market you are killing a new Shelby that cost a lot more. I know all of the buts for the Shelby...and it is what I want if I could get it as MSRP I would not have an issue but the current environment is actually turningme off of the Shelby - not fromFord, not from Mustangs, not even from dealers because I can't fault them too much for geting what people will pay.....but I dofeelI was lied to by a few dealrs and can't believe that the car sits on a showroom floor rather than sells for 12K over MSRP because they want 20K over.

 

Is a 26K Terminator with 10-15K miles a better buy than a 40-50K Shelby - probably but i like the Shelby more. Is it a better buy than the same Shelby with a 10-20K ADM - No doubt...but I still like he Shelby thus the difficulty in waitingout the prce drop....PSDS still going

[PhantomAce]

You know, all of these "The termie modded would kill the GT500" threads are driving me crazy!

I'm going to get on my soapbox, deal with it, or don't read it!

(You thought my other posts were long-winded? Grab lunch and a cup of coffee, you're going to need it!)

 

Sitting next to my house, RIGHT NOW, I have not 1, but 2 matching 1961 Falcon Ranchero's. (One I drove in HS, the other I bought running for $500 for a parts car.)

For those that don't know their Ford history, the 1960-1963 Falcon was actually the parent to the original Mustang, so this qualifies as a relative and comparable car for this discussion. (The original Mustang "Mule" was actually a 1963 Falcon 2-door. Only major difference other than body-lines is 1/2" in wheelbase. Where do you think the "eye-brow" dash and those lines down the side came from, eh?)

Now, I can damn well assure you that neither of these cars in their current condition is worth a penny more than $500 on Extreme-Bay.

 

But...

At a grand total of 2,338 lbs when built (yes, that's a 2 in front) they are very light.

These cars will take a small block (221, 260, 289, 302 or 351-W) very easily, as Ford offered a 260 in 1963 (same body style) so the stock mounts for engine and C-4 or 4-speed trans are readily available. Additionally, it is SOOOOO easy to put an AOD or T-5 or whatever you want in one that it is not even funny.

Now, rip out the stock I-6 engine, trans and rear, and throw in a 351-W with aluminum heads, T-5 and a narrowed 9" and you can have 500-600RWHP all day in a package that TOPS is maybe 2,800 lbs at most.

You would be in the drive train a MAXIMUM of $12-15k, even IF you had someone else do all the work.

with another $15-k you can do a top-line exhaust, discs all around, full-frame if you want, interior and paint.

We're talking less than $30-k out the door, and absolutely KILL any Mustang that cost more than that when built as stock.

Does that mean a GT500 is a bad value? NO F in' way!!!

I have the car, I've owned it since High School (when dinosaurs walked the Earth) and I am giving it up to buy this car.

Why you ask? (You did ask, and if not, too bad, I'm telling you anyway).

This is a BRAND NEW top-notch 500HP Mustang with a great interior, and with a full factory warranty!

Add on top of that the fact that it had ANY involvement from Shelby and SVT (pick your favorite) and it's a winner.

If I build the crap out of the car I have, at the end of the day it is still worth about 8-12k no matter what.

If you do the same with a termie, see what they'll give you for it when it gets totalled or it's time to trade it in. I'm guessing $15-20k, deal with it.

New Mustang GT? Go ahead and pour $10-15k into one to beat a GT500, it's still a "used Mustang GT" and will be worth the same.

And, you know what? At that weight, power, and suspension my little Falc' would kick the crap out of any car you guys keep trying to compare to the GT500. We're talking 1/4-mile and roadie coarses. (Remember the only "good thing" out of an M-II was the front suspension? well, they're a grand total of $1,800 for an old Falcon).

 

ANY car can be built to beat another car.

Start looking at the entire package and the value it represents, as well as future depreciation, or move along.

If you agree or disagree with my opinion that's your own choice.

But in any case, this is a GT500 board. we don't go to the termie boards and start rattling cages, let's see some of the same respect here, PLEASE!

 

So sorry if I've offended anyone, but the bottom line is that this is the STOCK car we have opted to buy. Quit comparing it to every "modded" piece of steel on four wheels on earth. The envy is getting old.

 

Mike.

[Guest evilchris]

30,000 mile 04 Cobra private party value KBB:

 

 

 

 

More Photos Condition Value

 

Excellent

$28,710

(Selected)

 

Good

$27,125

 

Fair

$25,110

 

 

FAR CRY from "15-20k tops". Insurance pays private party. You think you'll get a lot trading a GT500 in? Someone here already asked and was offered THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND. lol! Only $10k more than an 04 Cobra yet cost $8k more and is BRAND NEW! The GT500 will depreciate just as fast as any other generation SVT Cobra.

[PhantomAce]

30,000 mile 04 Cobra private party value KBB:

 

 

 

 

More Photos Condition Value

 

Excellent

$28,710

(Selected)

 

Good

$27,125

 

Fair

$25,110

FAR CRY from "15-20k tops". Insurance pays private party. You think you'll get a lot trading a GT500 in? Someone here already asked and was offered THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND. lol! Only $10k more than an 04 Cobra yet cost $8k more and is BRAND NEW! The GT500 will depreciate just as fast as any other generation SVT Cobra.

 

 

EC,

You know what I'm saying here.

Twist it all you want, but the bottom line is that you CAN'T really expect to compare a modified car to a brand new stock car.

Compare stock for stock, or mod for mod.

Anything else is just not fair, and you know it.

Otherwise, like i said, a 45 year old car could kick both their asses dollar for dollar.

Hell, for that matter, a skateboard could too...

 

Bottom line: will a stock termie beat a stock GT500?

If not, then the discussion should end.

Now, forgive me, I'm going to get a glass of vino. Burp:

 

Mike.

[68fastback]

You know, all of these "The termie modded would kill the GT500" threads are driving me crazy!

I'm going to get on my soapbox, deal with it, or don't read it!

(You thought my other posts were long-winded? Grab lunch and a cup of coffee, you're going to need it!)

 

Sitting next to my house, RIGHT NOW, I have not 1, but 2 matching 1961 Falcon Ranchero's. (One I drove in HS, the other I bought running for $500 for a parts car.)

For those that don't know their Ford history, the 1960-1963 Falcon was actually the parent to the original Mustang, so this qualifies as a relative and comparable car for this discussion. (The original Mustang "Mule" was actually a 1963 Falcon 2-door. Only major difference other than body-lines is 1/2" in wheelbase. Where do you think the "eye-brow" dash and those lines down the side came from, eh?)

Now, I can damn well assure you that neither of these cars in their current condition is worth a penny more than $500 on Extreme-Bay.

 

But...

At a grand total of 2,338 lbs when built (yes, that's a 2 in front) they are very light.

These cars will take a small block (221, 260, 289, 302 or 351-W) very easily, as Ford offered a 260 in 1963 (same body style) so the stock mounts for engine and C-4 or 4-speed trans are readily available. Additionally, it is SOOOOO easy to put an AOD or T-5 or whatever you want in one that it is not even funny.

Now, rip out the stock I-6 engine, trans and rear, and throw in a 351-W with aluminum heads, T-5 and a narrowed 9" and you can have 500-600RWHP all day in a package that TOPS is maybe 2,800 lbs at most.

You would be in the drive train a MAXIMUM of $12-15k, even IF you had someone else do all the work.

with another $15-k you can do a top-line exhaust, discs all around, full-frame if you want, interior and paint.

We're talking less than $30-k out the door, and absolutely KILL any Mustang that cost more than that when built as stock.

Does that mean a GT500 is a bad value? NO F in' way!!!

I have the car, I've owned it since High School (when dinosaurs walked the Earth) and I am giving it up to buy this car.

Why you ask? (You did ask, and if not, too bad, I'm telling you anyway).

This is a BRAND NEW top-notch 500HP Mustang with a great interior, and with a full factory warranty!

Add on top of that the fact that it had ANY involvement from Shelby and SVT (pick your favorite) and it's a winner.

If I build the crap out of the car I have, at the end of the day it is still worth about 8-12k no matter what.

If you do the same with a termie, see what they'll give you for it when it gets totalled or it's time to trade it in. I'm guessing $15-20k, deal with it.

New Mustang GT? Go ahead and pour $10-15k into one to beat a GT500, it's still a "used Mustang GT" and will be worth the same.

And, you know what? At that weight, power, and suspension my little Falc' would kick the crap out of any car you guys keep trying to compare to the GT500. We're talking 1/4-mile and roadie coarses. (Remember the only "good thing" out of an M-II was the front suspension? well, they're a grand total of $1,800 for an old Falcon).

 

ANY car can be built to beat another car.

Start looking at the entire package and the value it represents, as well as future depreciation, or move along.

If you agree or disagree with my opinion that's your own choice.

But in any case, this is a GT500 board. we don't go to the termie boards and start rattling cages, let's see some of the same respect here, PLEASE!

 

So sorry if I've offended anyone, but the bottom line is that this is the STOCK car we have opted to buy. Quit comparing it to every "modded" piece of steel on four wheels on earth. The envy is getting old.

 

Mike.

 

 

Well said, Mike... some will never "get it." You clearly do

 

.

[PhantomAce]

Well said, Mike... some will never "get it." You clearly do

 

.

 

Point I'm trying to make here is let's stop all the crap of "modded vs stock" when comparing TOTALLY different cars.

The only thing that the termies and the S197 share is the "Mustang" and/or "Cobra" name and badges.

No STOCK termie will hand the STOCK GT500 it's bags, period, and probably vice-versa.

To argue stock against mods, well, why don't we just drag up some old dragsters, eh?

 

Mike.

[Joe G]

Now, forgive me, I'm going to get a glass of vino. Burp:

 

Mike.

 

Good stuff Mike. I'll drink to that.

 

Oh - what if my wine only comes in twist off bottles - can I still drink with you??

[PhantomAce]

Good stuff Mike. I'll drink to that.

 

Oh - what if my wine only comes in twist off bottles - can I still drink with you??

 

Whatever floats your boat is fine by me, and that's coming from a Republican!

I actually HATE wine. But, unfortunately, my cardiologist has convinced my wife that if I have to drink, it better be red wine. Would rather have a Heiniken, or St Pauli, or a Bacardi & Coke.

However, ever seen a 5'-0" NY Italian get her knickers in a knot?

You would shut up and deal with the red wine too, guaranteed!

So, if I have to have red wine, at least I buy the good stuff..

 

Mike.

[VNMOUS1]

30,000 mile 04 Cobra private party value KBB:

 

 

 

 

More Photos Condition Value

 

Excellent

$28,710

(Selected)

 

Good

$27,125

 

Fair

$25,110

FAR CRY from "15-20k tops". Insurance pays private party. You think you'll get a lot trading a GT500 in? Someone here already asked and was offered THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND. lol! Only $10k more than an 04 Cobra yet cost $8k more and is BRAND NEW! The GT500 will depreciate just as fast as any other generation SVT Cobra.

 

 

EC, the figures you're quoting have ZERO bearing on the worth of the car. There are TWO street values of cars:

 

The most important one is what they're going for at the auction. THAT'S what they're really worth...and that, by the way, is what the car you're speaking of (the 35k GT500) is based upon. You're comparing that with the stats you pulled up on Kelly. Private Party on KBB is no factor for anything. Nobody will ever give you that on a trade. In fact, KBB value is genrally overstated by at least 10%. Black Book is the standard for auctions, dealers and banks. Go try to get a loan at the numbers you've quoted. You won't.

 

So, you're comparing apples to oranges on value....just as those that compare a modded Termy to a stock GT500. You can't.

 

I stated the "block" prices for Termies above. Those are real ones.

 

If you want to start quoting Kelly, quote the new pricing for a GT500 and go apples to apples:

 

 

MSRP

$42,975.00

Invoice

$39,063.00

New Car Blue

Book Value

What consumers are really paying for this vehicle

$60,165.00

 

 

Just as a dealer is offering less than invoice for a GT500 (as they should since they can buy a new one at invoice), the used Termy won't come close to bringing "excellent" anywhere on a bid. Take "average" and deduct at least 10% from "Trade In" value....not "Private Party". That figure is so you have a starting point for the sign you put in your window and park your car at the mall.

 

 

 

bj

[subguns]

You know, all of these "The termie modded would kill the GT500" threads are driving me crazy!

I'm going to get on my soapbox, deal with it, or don't read it!

(You thought my other posts were long-winded? Grab lunch and a cup of coffee, you're going to need it!)

 

Sitting next to my house, RIGHT NOW, I have not 1, but 2 matching 1961 Falcon Ranchero's. (One I drove in HS, the other I bought running for $500 for a parts car.)

For those that don't know their Ford history, the 1960-1963 Falcon was actually the parent to the original Mustang, so this qualifies as a relative and comparable car for this discussion. (The original Mustang "Mule" was actually a 1963 Falcon 2-door. Only major difference other than body-lines is 1/2" in wheelbase. Where do you think the "eye-brow" dash and those lines down the side came from, eh?)

Now, I can damn well assure you that neither of these cars in their current condition is worth a penny more than $500 on Extreme-Bay.

 

But...

At a grand total of 2,338 lbs when built (yes, that's a 2 in front) they are very light.

These cars will take a small block (221, 260, 289, 302 or 351-W) very easily, as Ford offered a 260 in 1963 (same body style) so the stock mounts for engine and C-4 or 4-speed trans are readily available. Additionally, it is SOOOOO easy to put an AOD or T-5 or whatever you want in one that it is not even funny.

Now, rip out the stock I-6 engine, trans and rear, and throw in a 351-W with aluminum heads, T-5 and a narrowed 9" and you can have 500-600RWHP all day in a package that TOPS is maybe 2,800 lbs at most.

You would be in the drive train a MAXIMUM of $12-15k, even IF you had someone else do all the work.

with another $15-k you can do a top-line exhaust, discs all around, full-frame if you want, interior and paint.

We're talking less than $30-k out the door, and absolutely KILL any Mustang that cost more than that when built as stock.

Does that mean a GT500 is a bad value? NO F in' way!!!

I have the car, I've owned it since High School (when dinosaurs walked the Earth) and I am giving it up to buy this car.

Why you ask? (You did ask, and if not, too bad, I'm telling you anyway).

This is a BRAND NEW top-notch 500HP Mustang with a great interior, and with a full factory warranty!

Add on top of that the fact that it had ANY involvement from Shelby and SVT (pick your favorite) and it's a winner.

If I build the crap out of the car I have, at the end of the day it is still worth about 8-12k no matter what.

If you do the same with a termie, see what they'll give you for it when it gets totalled or it's time to trade it in. I'm guessing $15-20k, deal with it.

New Mustang GT? Go ahead and pour $10-15k into one to beat a GT500, it's still a "used Mustang GT" and will be worth the same.

And, you know what? At that weight, power, and suspension my little Falc' would kick the crap out of any car you guys keep trying to compare to the GT500. We're talking 1/4-mile and roadie coarses. (Remember the only "good thing" out of an M-II was the front suspension? well, they're a grand total of $1,800 for an old Falcon).

 

ANY car can be built to beat another car.

Start looking at the entire package and the value it represents, as well as future depreciation, or move along.

If you agree or disagree with my opinion that's your own choice.

But in any case, this is a GT500 board. we don't go to the termie boards and start rattling cages, let's see some of the same respect here, PLEASE!

 

So sorry if I've offended anyone, but the bottom line is that this is the STOCK car we have opted to buy. Quit comparing it to every "modded" piece of steel on four wheels on earth. The envy is getting old.

 

Mike.

 

 

+1 on the above.

 

I know this for a fact... I am going to do my best to buy every ragged out, wrecked Shelby GT500 I can find over the next few years. You figure it out.

 

By the way, if anyone wants to sell any of their removed parts from their Shelby mods, send me a PM. I need wheels now.

[90GT]

Terms and the GT500 are light years apart. The new platform is 100 times better than the old platform the Term is based off of.

[68fastback]

Whatever floats your boat is fine by me, and that's coming from a Republican!

I actually HATE wine. But, unfortunately, my cardiologist has convinced my wife that if I have to drink, it better be red wine. Would rather have a Heiniken, or St Pauli, or a Bacardi & Coke.

However, ever seen a 5'-0" NY Italian get her knickers in a knot?

You would shut up and deal with the red wine too, guaranteed!

So, if I have to have red wine, at least I buy the good stuff..

 

Mike.

 

 

Mike,

 

...undoubtedly a great woman but I'm biased! <Italian, here>

 

What part of the country are you in, Phantom -- you know, it's hard to get a good NY Italian women to stray too far from the big apple

 

Upstate NY here -- Catskill mountains.

 

-Dan

[PhantomAce]

Mike,

 

...undoubtedly a great woman but I'm biased! <Italian, here>

 

What part of the country are you in, Phantom -- you know, it's hard to get a good NY Italian women to stray too far from the big apple

 

Upstate NY here -- Catskill mountains.

 

-Dan

 

Actually way west of you.

I'm in Las Vegas, NV.

She is from Queens, but moved out here after HS with her family.

She's been here longer than NY now, but still can't get that accent out of her voice, especially when she's PO'd!

I've only ever been to NY 1 time myself. Was about 4 years ago, went through NY city up to White Plains on business. Pretty country outside the city there.

 

Mike.

[68fastback]

Actually way west of you.

I'm in Las Vegas, NV.

She is from Queens, but moved out here after HS with her family.

She's been here longer than NY now, but still can't get that accent out of her voice, especially when she's PO'd!

I've only ever been to NY 1 time myself. Was about 4 years ago, went through NY city up to White Plains on business. Pretty country outside the city there.

 

Mike.

 

 

Yeah, upstate is even nicer! (and way up in the Adirondacks it's stunningly gorgeous) Not that the desert SW isn't gorgeous too!

 

I grew up in Queens too -- Astoria! She'll know where that is.

 

PS -- my daughter & family are in Henderson -- small world

 

.