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Turbo's and TT's


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I have a lot of respect for turbocharging. IMHO, it's free power, with low maintenence. By that, I mean to say that turbocharging does not cause any parasitic drag on the engine. It's exhaust driven, no serpentine belt required, no drag to overcome to build boost.

 

Adjustable wastegate from behind the wheel allows you to dial in your boost on the fly, rather than change out a pulley in the pits. It's also less taxing on a stock engine.

 

Some will say that being dependent on exhaust gases has a drawback of "turbo lag", meaning it takes time to spool up initial boost. But, (and again) IMHO this has been grossly exaggerated in favor of other styles of power adders. IMHO, all that counts is who crosses the finish line first.

 

1/8 mile drag racing, I wouldn't bet on a turbo car. Just not enough distance to get into all the power on tap. However, 1/4, 1/2 and full mile drag racing, a turbo car will eat other power adders alive. Autocrossing and road racing as well, once you're in your power band, you stay there and there is no "turbo lag" to deal with once it spools up.

 

Looking at it from a manfacturer's POV, there are more turbocharged production cars on the pavement today than supercharged, and this is something to reflect on. Consider the offerings from Chrysler? I owned a 2005 Dodge Neon SRT-4 and it was a very quick car. I was waiting on the Caliber SRT-4 to roll out when I found LuLu. Moreover, most of the big time racing pros in my neck of the woods favor turbocharging, the second largest camp is centrifugal supercharging.

 

Fixed displacement superchargers are growing more popular simply due to OEM offerings. Even here at TS, the Whipple and the Kenne Bell are popular choices, but IMHO, a lot of this popularity stems from wanting compliance with SAI/FMC warranty and SGT registery, as well as a sense of camaraderie among the TS group. This is not a bad thing, but it skews fact from fiction.

 

Turbocharging is good stuff, but I may end up adding a ProCharger P1SC to LuLu, I haven't made up my mind.

 

Just my .02C, gents. Flame away...

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Mac, Thanks for the information. Is there a big difference between the ProCharger and the Paxton? Will you be doing any internal upgrades or just go stock? Are the certrifugal SC's and turbo's as prone to heat soak as the fixed displacement SC's?

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Mac, Thanks for the information. Is there a big difference between the ProCharger and the Paxton? Will you be doing any internal upgrades or just go stock? Are the certrifugal SC's and turbo's as prone to heat soak as the fixed displacement SC's?

Big performance difference? No. Very similar designs and power production, some would suggest they are identical, but they are not.

 

When you go through the blower maps (available at both websites) of which blower produces what power at what boost, Vortech (who owns Paxton-Novi) and ProCharger seem to leap-frog over one another. Between the two, the Vortech V2-S Trim is within a few hundred CFMs of the P1SC at total blow, and the Vortech V2 T trim is very close to the ProCharger D1SC at total blow. It can be a hard choice at times, but this allows you to tailor blower output to your needs, and fine tune power production with pulley selection of choice. I do not find such adjustable flexibility in a "fixed displacement" (FD) blower.

 

Yup...They look identical at first glance, "hair dryers", all of them. The difference lies in the internals, impeller design, drive gear set, source of lubrication, and so on. Very minor differences, and IMHO, picking one over the other is like finding a new dentist. You have to make a decision to sit in the seat from other clues, because you can't really see what he's doing in your mouth. The end result should be a bright and pain free smile, but you won't know exactly how he got you there.

 

I've used Vortech in the past with very positive results and I trust the engineering. I considering the ProCharger this time around simply because of cost. I'm getting an offer I should not refuse from my tuner, Simpson Performance.

 

If I do supercharge, I'll keep the power modest on my stock engine. Under 8 PSI, in the neighborhood of 425 RWHP/400 RWTQ. This is a delightful power range providing a lot of fun, with minimal threat. No one needs to run on the ragged edge to have fun, and I just have to ask...Where in Hell can you drive 500 RWHP today? No where around me, this is for sure.

 

I "zipped up" years ago, dyno numbers don't do not impress me anymore. I've seen many race cars with lower dyno numbers kick the shit out of the higher dyno number cars at the track. Today, I could care less about RWHP. It's torque that gets you to the finish line first, and turbos rule, given enough distance.

 

Heat soak...Well, anytime you hammer on the stock engine, you will eventually suffer heat soak, this is a given, a principle of running your car like a race horse. Eventually, it will break a sweat and you will need some cool down time, or, lose performance. Thus, IMHO, having a blower mounted in the engine valley accelerates this syndrome. FD blowers are known to generate more heat than centrifugals and turbos, and in the worst place (engine valley) to allow that as well. Oh, don't get me wrong, centrifugals and turbos generate heat too, but outside the engine and away from other critical structures.

 

Moreover, a FD blower sits on top of a "fixed displacement" intercooler, yes? At drag strips local to me, sometimes the turn-around time doesn't allow for adequate cool down. When running back-to-back passes, centrifugals and turbos will last longer and out perform FD blowers before the power drops off. Likewise with autocross and road racing, it's a matter of how many laps you can get in before the power gets lazy.

 

One other thing...When I post "fixed displacement" inside quotes, I'm not poking at Dan. He coined the phrase here, and it serves us all well by encapsulating the variety in the FD market into two words. I'm now calling it FD, and thank you, Dan.

 

Just my .02C, carry on, gents.

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Big performance difference? No. Very similar designs and power production, some would suggest they are identical, but they are not.

 

When you go through the blower maps (available at both websites) of which blower produces what power at what boost, Vortech (who owns Paxton-Novi) and ProCharger seem to leap-frog over one another. Between the two, the Vortech V2-S Trim is within a few hundred CFMs of the P1SC at total blow, and the Vortech V2 T trim is very close to the ProCharger D1SC at total blow. It can be a hard choice at times, but this allows you to tailor blower output to your needs, and fine tune power production with pulley selection of choice. I do not find such adjustable flexibility in a "fixed displacement" (FD) blower.

 

Yup...They look identical at first glance, "hair dryers", all of them. The difference lies in the internals, impeller design, drive gear set, source of lubrication, and so on. Very minor differences, and IMHO, picking one over the other is like finding a new dentist. You have to make a decision to sit in the seat from other clues, because you can't really see what he's doing in your mouth. The end result should be a bright and pain free smile, but you won't know exactly how he got you there.

 

I've used Vortech in the past with very positive results and I trust the engineering. I considering the ProCharger this time around simply because of cost. I'm getting an offer I should not refuse from my tuner, Simpson Performance.

 

If I do supercharge, I'll keep the power modest on my stock engine. Under 8 PSI, in the neighborhood of 425 RWHP/400 RWTQ. This is a delightful power range providing a lot of fun, with minimal threat. No one needs to run on the ragged edge to have fun, and I just have to ask...Where in Hell can you drive 500 RWHP today? No where around me, this is for sure.

 

I "zipped up" years ago, dyno numbers don't do not impress me anymore. I've seen many race cars with lower dyno numbers kick the shit out of the higher dyno number cars at the track. Today, I could care less about RWHP. It's torque that gets you to the finish line first, and turbos rule, given enough distance.

 

Heat soak...Well, anytime you hammer on the stock engine, you will eventually suffer heat soak, this is a given, a principle of running your car like a race horse. Eventually, it will break a sweat and you will need some cool down time, or, lose performance. Thus, IMHO, having a blower mounted in the engine valley accelerates this syndrome. FD blowers are known to generate more heat than centrifugals and turbos, and in the worst place (engine valley) to allow that as well. Oh, don't get me wrong, centrifugals and turbos generate heat too, but outside the engine and away from other critical structures.

 

Moreover, a FD blower sits on top of a "fixed displacement" intercooler, yes? At drag strips local to me, sometimes the turn-around time doesn't allow for adequate cool down. When running back-to-back passes, centrifugals and turbos will last longer and out perform FD blowers before the power drops off. Likewise with autocross and road racing, it's a matter of how many laps you can get in before the power gets lazy.

 

One other thing...When I post "fixed displacement" inside quotes, I'm not poking at Dan. He coined the phrase here, and it serves us all well by encapsulating the variety in the FD market into two words. I'm now calling it FD, and thank you, Dan.

 

Just my .02C, carry on, gents.

 

thanks again LuLu

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I came across this article which may interest some of you...

 

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/even...tout/index.html

Excellent contribution, sir, thank you. I hope others read the whole article.

 

The 60' times are telling. I believe the discussion of which blower produces more power in the low RPMs, is over.

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Water cooling for a turbo...Interesting.

 

I think turbocharging is maturing into a very competitive power adder.

 

 

From what we hear Ford things so too. We'll see what pops up next year and if the suspected TT GT350, or what ever it will be called, shows up on dealer lots in 2010.

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  • 1 year later...

I have a lot of respect for turbocharging. IMHO, it's free power, with low maintenence. By that, I mean to say that turbocharging does not cause any parasitic drag on the engine. It's exhaust driven, no serpentine belt required, no drag to overcome to build boost.

 

Adjustable wastegate from behind the wheel allows you to dial in your boost on the fly, rather than change out a pulley in the pits. It's also less taxing on a stock engine.

 

Some will say that being dependent on exhaust gases has a drawback of "turbo lag", meaning it takes time to spool up initial boost. But, (and again) IMHO this has been grossly exaggerated in favor of other styles of power adders. IMHO, all that counts is who crosses the finish line first.

 

1/8 mile drag racing, I wouldn't bet on a turbo car. Just not enough distance to get into all the power on tap. However, 1/4, 1/2 and full mile drag racing, a turbo car will eat other power adders alive. Autocrossing and road racing as well, once you're in your power band, you stay there and there is no "turbo lag" to deal with once it spools up.

 

Looking at it from a manfacturer's POV, there are more turbocharged production cars on the pavement today than supercharged, and this is something to reflect on. Consider the offerings from Chrysler? I owned a 2005 Dodge Neon SRT-4 and it was a very quick car. I was waiting on the Caliber SRT-4 to roll out when I found LuLu. Moreover, most of the big time racing pros in my neck of the woods favor turbocharging, the second largest camp is centrifugal supercharging.

 

Fixed displacement superchargers are growing more popular simply due to OEM offerings. Even here at TS, the Whipple and the Kenne Bell are popular choices, but IMHO, a lot of this popularity stems from wanting compliance with SAI/FMC warranty and SGT registery, as well as a sense of camaraderie among the TS group. This is not a bad thing, but it skews fact from fiction.

 

Turbocharging is good stuff, but I may end up adding a ProCharger P1SC to LuLu, I haven't made up my mind.

 

Just my .02C, gents. Flame away...

 

 

so did you add the ProCharger P1SC to LuLu?

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