svtkeith Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I called today about mods for my GT500 at a reliable and well known shop in New Jersey, they told me the bottom end of the GT 500's 5.4 is no where near as strong as the 04 terms 4.6 bottom end. With all the good news about how well the GT500 is responding to mods, the big question is how much HP will it handle before it gives us problems. Has anybody else heard anything about a possible weak bottom end on the GT500. I would like to do the same mods to my GT500 as I did to my 04 Term. Here's a list of the mods I did to my 04 Term: SCT Tuner and Tune(for 91 Octane Fuel) 2.8 Pulley CAI Catback (MagnaFlow) Dyno'd at: 440 RWHP 463 lb-ft TQ svtkeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest evilchris Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 What part of the bottom end? Rods, pistons, block itself, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted August 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 What part of the bottom end? Rods, pistons, block itself, what? Sorry. I should have went into detail. Apparently, the connecting rods are the weak link in the chain. svtkeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest evilchris Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Sorry. I should have went into detail. Apparently, the connecting rods are the weak link in the chain. svtkeith Terms had the Manley H-beam rods, awesome. I read what the 500 has but it's escaping me atm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 Terms had the Manley H-beam rods, awesome. I read what the 500 has but it's escaping me atm... I thought they were called cracked forged I beam rods. don't think we know yet for sure who the manufacturer was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted August 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I thought they were called cracked forged I beam rods. don't think we know yet for sure who the manufacturer was I also heard they were cracked forged made by Mahle. svtkeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETSOLVER Posted August 21, 2006 Report Share Posted August 21, 2006 I also heard they were cracked forged made by Mahle. svtkeith Yup We got caught a little by the decontenting here. The GT engine has Manley 4340 H beam rods good for 700 +. The word is you can go to around 650 crank with a VERY good tune up, but becuase you can doesn't mean you should. I'll add this if you want the actual link PM me please as I got this from another source.... "One small correction I found as I looked into this a little deeper... The GT500 does use a Mahle rod. It is a forged rod with a cracked cap and the design parameters aren't much different than the piston. Again, these are factory specs, so I would assume they tend to be on the conservative side. Its the same 169.1mm (6.657") length as the GT rod. Regards, MAHLE Motorsports, Inc. Application Engineering 270 Rutledge Road Unit B, Fletcher, NC 28732 Telephone: 828-650-5180, Fax: 828-650-0819" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
614HSO Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Yup We got caught a little by the decontenting here. The GT engine has Manley 4340 H beam rods good for 700 +. The word is you can go to around 650 crank with a VERY good tune up, but becuase you can doesn't mean you should. I'll add this if you want the actual link PM me please as I got this from another source.... "One small correction I found as I looked into this a little deeper... The GT500 does use a Mahle rod. It is a forged rod with a cracked cap and the design parameters aren't much different than the piston. Again, these are factory specs, so I would assume they tend to be on the conservative side. Its the same 169.1mm (6.657") length as the GT rod. Regards, MAHLE Motorsports, Inc. Application Engineering 270 Rutledge Road Unit B, Fletcher, NC 28732 Telephone: 828-650-5180, Fax: 828-650-0819" Learn something new everyday! What is the manufacturing process for these "cracked caps", and under what conditions would their weakness become apparent or be an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07 Shelby Cobra Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Ford Modular Engine Guru, Fourcam330 from SVTPerformance.com, is quoted as saying that the Rods are the Weak Link in the Shelby 5.4L engine. That being said, all Engines have a Weak Link somewhere. He also says the Rods will be Good for 650 RWHP. That's Good Enough for Me! I won't be going there!! :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shel-b001 Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Yup We got caught a little by the decontenting here. The GT engine has Manley 4340 H beam rods good for 700 +. The word is you can go to around 650 crank with a VERY good tune up, but becuase you can doesn't mean you should. I'll add this if you want the actual link PM me please as I got this from another source.... "One small correction I found as I looked into this a little deeper... The GT500 does use a Mahle rod. It is a forged rod with a cracked cap and the design parameters aren't much different than the piston. Again, these are factory specs, so I would assume they tend to be on the conservative side. Its the same 169.1mm (6.657") length as the GT rod. Regards, MAHLE Motorsports, Inc. Application Engineering 270 Rutledge Road Unit B, Fletcher, NC 28732 Telephone: 828-650-5180, Fax: 828-650-0819" What other parts of the G.T 500 are similar to the G.T. -40? If you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted August 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Engine Guru, Fourcam330 from SVTPerformance.com, is quoted as saying that the Rods are the Weak Link in the Shelby 5.4L engine. That being said, all Engines have a Weak Link somewhere. He also says the Rods will be Good for 650 RWHP. That's Good Enough for Me! I won't be going there!! :o That's good enough for me too, 07. You mentioned you won't be going there, does that mean no performance mods at all? I'm going with minor mods, tune, catback, CAI, and possibly pulley. I can only obtain 91 Octane here in Nova Scotia. Looking for 500 to 550 RWHP, will be happy with that. Actually at this point, I'll be happy just to get the car. It has been on rails since August 14, should be getting it soon. svtkeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07 Shelby Cobra Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 That's good enough for me too, 07. You mentioned you won't be going there, does that mean no performance mods at all? I'm going with minor mods, tune, catback, CAI, and possibly pulley. I can only obtain 91 Octane here in Nova Scotia. Looking for 500 to 550 RWHP, will be happy with that. Actually at this point, I'll be happy just to get the car. It has been on rails since August 14, should be getting it soon. svtkeith Hey Keith, I'm going to aim for 500 RWHP which should be a breeze. I've been in contact with Steeda Canada and Paul Meister their Tuner. He was trained by the same Tuner who trained Lidio. Still might go with Joe DaSilva. Hard decision. Good luck on the Delivery. Mine was made on the 28th of June and didn't arrive until July 27th. Long 300 mile haul down the 401 from Detroit! LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgussin1 Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 in the shelby the rods are good for 600rwhp @ 6250 rpm, the pistons are good for over 700 + rwhp @ 6250 + rpm. in the terminator the rods are good for 700 + rwhp @ 7000 rpm, the pistons are good for 550rwhp @ 7000 rpm. Now, this doesn't mean that these parts wont last at much higher numbers, it just means when you exceed these limits you are on borrowed time. A proper tune and good fuel are a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETSOLVER Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 What other parts of the G.T 500 are similar to the G.T. -40? If you please. The main shared componant is the cyl. head. And a very good piece to share. Here is an excellant article on the GT engine itself. Makes for good background on things. HOT ROD/GT engine in the shelby the rods are good for 600rwhp @ 6250 rpm, the pistons are good for over 700 + rwhp @ 6250 + rpm. in the terminator the rods are good for 700 + rwhp @ 7000 rpm, the pistons are good for 550rwhp @ 7000 rpm. Now, this doesn't mean that these parts wont last at much higher numbers, it just means when you exceed these limits you are on borrowed time. A proper tune and good fuel are a must. I will take this as definitive. Conservative is the best course on a relatively new powerplant. Let somebody else blow it up the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sssss Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 I called today about mods for my GT500 at a reliable and well known shop in New Jersey, they told me the bottom end of the GT 500's 5.4 is no where near as strong as the 04 terms 4.6 bottom end. With all the good news about how well the GT500 is responding to mods, the big question is how much HP will it handle before it gives us problems. Has anybody else heard anything about a possible weak bottom end on the GT500. I would like to do the same mods to my GT500 as I did to my 04 Term. svtkeith Bunch of BS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest evilchris Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Bunch of BS!! It's not a bunch of BS. Sorry, but the GT500 engine cannot handle 5,000 HP like a Top Fuel engine like some of you think. The shop is correct in that the rods used are weaker than those used on terms. However, it has stronger pistons. Regardless, 600RWHP is where you want to start watching it, just like the 450RWHP on the 3V 4.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 It's not a bunch of BS. Sorry, but the GT500 engine cannot handle 5,000 HP like a Top Fuel engine like some of you think. The shop is correct in that the rods used are weaker than those used on terms. However, it has stronger pistons. Regardless, 600RWHP is where you want to start watching it, just like the 450RWHP on the 3V 4.6. since most of the new shelbies are on the dyno at 420-440 rwhp max, this is still looking at 150 hp more anyway. I cannot imagine this car with over 600 rwhp on the street without major traction issues. Plenty of excitment to be had at that level anyway, without getting into rebuilding the bottom end. For those of you who are a bit deeper into it, why are the rods rated at hp instead of rpms? It seems to me that the stress from additional hp is immediately after ignition in the cylinder, which puts a compression stress on the rod. Usually materials handle compression stress much better than any other. I would have thought that the danger to rods would be on the exhaust cycle, based on the mass of the piston and its velocity (rpm based). What am I missing about engine dynamics here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest evilchris Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 since most of the new shelbies are on the dyno at 420-440 rwhp max, this is still looking at 150 hp more anyway. I cannot imagine this car with over 600 rwhp on the street without major traction issues. Plenty of excitment to be had at that level anyway, without getting into rebuilding the bottom end. Oh I'm not bitching, they're VERY strong and impressive. Just don't want people thinking it's BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Oh I'm not bitching, they're VERY strong and impressive. Just don't want people thinking it's BS. You might make 800 hp with this engine, except it likely will go kaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 Oh I'm not bitching, they're VERY strong and impressive. Just don't want people thinking it's BS. I agree, and also didn't mean to imply anything negative on your part. I think people need to know what the limits of this engine are. ....although, maybe we could use some of them as guinea pigs..... It is unrealistic to think that the engine will not break at some point. I just wonder what that point is going to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpretzel Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 It is unrealistic to think that the engine will not break at some point. I just wonder what that point is going to be. OK, one of the folks who got their Shelby needs to step up and take one for the team. Modify the out of the engine until it blows up. Then we'll all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest evilchris Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 OK, one of the folks who got their Shelby needs to step up and take one for the team. Modify the out of the engine until it blows up. Then we'll all know. I think Evolution's will blow 1st..... Not saying they don't know what they are doing, but they seem to be going no holds barred on theirs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted August 23, 2006 Report Share Posted August 23, 2006 I think Evolution's will blow 1st..... Not saying they don't know what they are doing, but they seem to be going no holds barred on theirs... ....works for me, I know they paid a pretty good adm on their shelby, so I'm guessing that they have a better race car budget than most of us........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sssss Posted August 23, 2006 Report Share Posted August 23, 2006 It's not a bunch of BS. Sorry, but the GT500 engine cannot handle 5,000 HP like a Top Fuel engine like some of you think. The shop is correct in that the rods used are weaker than those used on terms. However, it has stronger pistons. Regardless, 600RWHP is where you want to start watching it, just like the 450RWHP on the 3V 4.6. Here's a breakdown from "someone who's Really in the know"!!! "Pistons: 03/04 Zollners have weak skirts and the teflon coating tends to wear off quickly. Longterm they should be limited to ~550rw under a PD blower. From what's been seen so far the GT500 slugs are almost identical to (if not the same as) Ford GT pistons. They are a quality 2618 forged aluminum piston, and are easily stronger/better than what's found in Terminators. Rods: The 4340 forged Hs in the 03/04s are extremely strong. In fact I've never known of one that's failed on its own accord. They could use 7/16" rod bolts but most Terms don't spin that high anyway. The cracked forged I beams (Mahle) are definitely not as strong as the Hs found in the Terms. They are the weak link of this motor so to speak. Crank: Both Terms and GT500s have forged cranks, the only real difference besides stroke is that steel 5.4 cranks don't have a center counterweight. Al spins his 5.4 to 8400rpm regularly with a large diameter ATI dampner. Stock 4.6 forged cranks see 9200rpm in NMRA PS trim. Both parts are essentially equal as you'll never spin either motor that high with a synchronized trans. Block: Same, with regard to strength. 1400HP+." Thanks Andy! :beerchug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest evilchris Posted August 23, 2006 Report Share Posted August 23, 2006 Wow exactly what i said. Stronger pistons, weaker rods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted August 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2006 Here's a breakdown from "someone who's Really in the know"!!! "Pistons: 03/04 Zollners have weak skirts and the teflon coating tends to wear off quickly. Longterm they should be limited to ~550rw under a PD blower. From what's been seen so far the GT500 slugs are almost identical to (if not the same as) Ford GT pistons. They are a quality 2618 forged aluminum piston, and are easily stronger/better than what's found in Terminators. Rods: The 4340 forged Hs in the 03/04s are extremely strong. In fact I've never known of one that's failed on its own accord. They could use 7/16" rod bolts but most Terms don't spin that high anyway. The cracked forged I beams (Mahle) are definitely not as strong as the Hs found in the Terms. They are the weak link of this motor so to speak. Crank: Both Terms and GT500s have forged cranks, the only real difference besides stroke is that steel 5.4 cranks don't have a center counterweight. Al spins his 5.4 to 8400rpm regularly with a large diameter ATI dampner. Stock 4.6 forged cranks see 9200rpm in NMRA PS trim. Both parts are essentially equal as you'll never spin either motor that high with a synchronized trans. Block: Same, with regard to strength. 1400HP+." Thanks Andy! :beerchug: Hey SSSS Am I to understand by your post that this engine will safely produce 1400HP? if so, WOW. svtkeith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted August 23, 2006 Report Share Posted August 23, 2006 Hey SSSS Am I to understand by your post that this engine will safely produce 1400HP? if so, WOW. svtkeith I think that he means the block only....other components would certainly require upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
06ragtopGT Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 Are'nt the rods what breaks on the 5.4 Lightning engines when you go all out nuts on em. Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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