LuckySnake Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 I am sorry to hear this. You have had more than your share of problems. My 2000 Explorer was over a year old and on it's second engine and had over 30,000 miles when Ford replaced it with my choice of a new 2001 Escape. If you have an extended Ford warranty, Ford doesn't want to keep you in something that's costing them money. You should talk about a new one at your dealership. Replacing Rob's GT500 for the problems it has had would be a waste of money and a great machine. I would not even consider this as an option at this point. You can blame a good deal of this problem on the fact the original transmissions input shaft was not lubricated when the car was assembled. There was nothing wrong with the transmission or clutch. This problem was totally avoidable on Fords part, they simply dropped the ball. Big difference between an Explorer and a GT500. A GT500 is a keeper car, not throw away car. Rob's GT500 is not his daily driver, he can have it fixed without any hardship. I believe this will all be behind him shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of GT Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Good question Enis. I take no offense either. I do not keep my foot on the clutch after shifts. I make a effort to set my foot aside. The first Concentric Slave Cylinder bearing was defective the next day. I drove it 12 miles home and the next day I went to drive it and it sounded just like my video clip. The second bearing has 75 freeway miles on it and 20 in town miles on it. Here is a sound clip from the first bad CSC bearing in early March with 12 miles on it. Son of GT, I was thinking about your riding the clutch question some more and I wanted to point out that my original tranny never ever made that noise for the 3557 miles that I used it. It's just these 2 new CSC bearings that are giving me head aches. Understood. Just trying to cover all possibilties, and it's clear that you have been provided defective components multiple times. Having said that, may I recommend that you have your dealer's service manager contact the regional and/or area engineer to help them resolve this matter for you once and for all? Clearly, the CSC bearing supplier needs to be taken to task, and even though your multiple defects will eventually get back to the engineering group, it will speed that process up if an engineer is notifed and brought in early. The other benefit is that the engineer has the authority to pull a CSC bearing from the assembly line rather than taking another one from the regional distribution center that might indeed be part of a defective batch sitting on their shelves; who knows? The other thing that I would recommend doing would be to contact Tremec directly and get their POV of the problem. Yes, I know that FoMoCo supplies the CSC bearings to Tremec, but that wouldn't prevent a Tremec engineer from offering his or her opinion of how good the supplied component is. They might even be able to offer you advice on what FoMoCo should be doing to fix the problem PROPERLY. You would be surprised how candid people can be when they are trying to help someone resolve a problem that they knew was going to happen in the first place, and Tremec knew that these issues were going to appear sooner or later, and they told that to FoMoCo. I'm not mistaken, I believe you posted that the CSC bearing is the same bearing that's used in all Mustang manual transmission powertrains, and if that's true, how can FoMoCo expect it with withstand the additional pressures that the GT500 pressure plate would excert on it compared to the pressure plate on a V6? That would be one question that I would pose to the regional engineer. Really sorry to hear that you have to keep dealing with these issues, and I really hope that you get everything resolved to your satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500FLYBOY Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 It's not the car's fault the dealership was dealt a bad bearing. The replacement transmission was built on a holiday evening, that didn't help you any, again not the cars fault. A cracking stripe is by no means cause for long term concern. I would not be talking about getting rid of your GT500 because of a little bad luck, that will bring more bad luck IMO. I would drop it off, let the tech do his job without distraction and your car will be fine. Nothing worthwhile is easy, you already know that. Don't like to see a fellow enthusiast discouraged over easily solved problems. It's all about good karma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Rob, keep the faith, this will get resolved (again) the only reason you feel pain is becasue you love your car too much like many of us here & you know you can't trust anyone else to SAFELY work on it without your supervison. I'm the same way, just too many folks who don't appreiate what the car is, stands for or represents. QUESTION(s): Are these Factory New, Rebuilt or Refurbished CSC Bearings? Can they be disassembled down to the smallest part level & detail or are they sealed? Is there something farther up the stream in the line system or hook up procedure that can cause it to not function properly if something else fails or is defective? (i.e. check valve, metering block, cable hook up, electrical connection, air in the system, etc..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Rob, keep the faith, this will get resolved (again) the only reason you feel pain is becasue you love your car too much like many of us here & you know you can't trust anyone else to SAFELY work on it without your supervison. I'm the same way, just too many folks who don't appreiate what the car is, stands for or represents. QUESTION(s): Are these Factory New, Rebuilt or Refurbished CSC Bearings? Can they be disassembled down to the smallest part level & detail or are they sealed? Is there something farther up the stream in the line system or hook up procedure that can cause it to not function properly if something else fails or is defective? (i.e. check valve, metering block, cable hook up, electrical connection, air in the system, etc..) Both have been factory new parts from what I have been told. The part is a sealed unit. I asked if it could be the hydrolic line to it and engineering told me NO. I did another sound clip this morning, and pushed the clutch in a couple times during the noise period, and a couple revs. Thursday 4/17 sound clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trichie Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Well, This one lasted about 95 miles and now it's screaming like a stuck pig. The first one that came with my new tranny screamed at me the next day. This is also happening to another member here on this site. ffr1229 has a 2008 GT500 and his bearing went out a couple weeks ago with under 100 miles on the car. His screamed at him for 45 seconds at start up. He just had the tranny pulled and a new release bearing installed, and now it only screams at him for 15 seconds. It's starting to look like Ford's release bearing vendor has some bad product out there. At least these 4 are bad that I know of. I wonder how many more are bad ??? My 3rd release bearing was ordered today. It will arrive tomorrow and be installed Friday morning 4/18/08. This will be the 3rd time I have seen my tranny out of my car. I just took this sound clip a few minutes ago to show you the lovely metal to metal sound that a sticky release bearing makes. This one does it for 20 seconds at start up. and then when I rev the car up a little it will do it a few more times. Screaming GT500 sound clip Rob, I don't believe the sound you are hearing is actually the Release bearing but rather the sound of the face of the bearing slipping on the clutch fingers. Now, before you jump to conclusions, hear me out, I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic like Blayne. The cause for the bearing to rub on the clutch fingers is due to insufficient clearance between the bearing and the clutch, in other words, the release mechanism is not allowing enough clearance. This I believe is due to air in the clutch hydraulic mechanism. Air is compressible while hydraulic fluid is not (pardon me if I'm stating the obvious). So, if you have air in the line, it will compress and act like a spring pressing on the bearing and driving it against the clutch fingers causing it to rub and make noise. When you start to depress the clutch, enough pressure is exerted to cause the coefficient of friction between the face of the bearing and the clutch fingers to become greater than the bearing internal friction and the bearing then does what it is supposed to do, it rotates internally. Since the bearing is not designed to rotate all the time as it would quickly wear out, it should not rotate when the clutch is released nor should it rub on the clutch fingers. If the bearing were "bad" it would make the most noise when the clutch was fully depressed not when it was released. I hope this helps and let me know if I'm right. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharabi Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 ....but it's Orange silly. Orange lemon................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Rob, I don't believe the sound you are hearing is actually the Release bearing but rather the sound of the face of the bearing slipping on the clutch fingers. Now, before you jump to conclusions, hear me out, I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic like Blayne. The cause for the bearing to rub on the clutch fingers is due to insufficient clearance between the bearing and the clutch, in other words, the release mechanism is not allowing enough clearance. This I believe is due to air in the clutch hydraulic mechanism. Air is compressible while hydraulic fluid is not (pardon me if I'm stating the obvious). So, if you have air in the line, it will compress and act like a spring pressing on the bearing and driving it against the clutch fingers causing it to rub and make noise. When you start to depress the clutch, enough pressure is exerted to cause the coefficient of friction between the face of the bearing and the clutch fingers to become greater than the bearing internal friction and the bearing then does what it is supposed to do, it rotates internally. Since the bearing is not designed to rotate all the time as it would quickly wear out, it should not rotate when the clutch is released nor should it rub on the clutch fingers. If the bearing were "bad" it would make the most noise when the clutch was fully depressed not when it was released. I hope this helps and let me know if I'm right. Ted Ted, Thanks for the suggestion. I am checking into this with my dealer and engineering. I will let you know. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tispco Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Rob -- I think Ted's observation here is really worth looking into. As you stated earlier, one bearing came from Tremec and the other was from Ford's Oregon distribution center. This part has also been around since 2005. If you add in that we have not heard any stories of these bearings going bad on this forum or others, the odds of getting two bad bearings in a row are slim. You really don't want to keep having that transmission pulled out, IMO that will just lead to other problems. Also, with regards to air in the system, do any of these parts require a bench bleed before installation? If that was not done, even with the vacuum bleeder, there could still be a bit of air in the system. One other idea I have is it is my understanding you have one of the first, if not the first customer installed version of this transmission and some of the other parts that go with it. Could there be some unknown issue there causing this problem? I am not in engineering, but I work in computer operations and spend a lot of time troubleshooting. Typically with computer issues, the problem either has to do with being the first or recent work someone on the staff has done. Tim Rob, I don't believe the sound you are hearing is actually the Release bearing but rather the sound of the face of the bearing slipping on the clutch fingers. Now, before you jump to conclusions, hear me out, I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic like Blayne. The cause for the bearing to rub on the clutch fingers is due to insufficient clearance between the bearing and the clutch, in other words, the release mechanism is not allowing enough clearance. This I believe is due to air in the clutch hydraulic mechanism. Air is compressible while hydraulic fluid is not (pardon me if I'm stating the obvious). So, if you have air in the line, it will compress and act like a spring pressing on the bearing and driving it against the clutch fingers causing it to rub and make noise. When you start to depress the clutch, enough pressure is exerted to cause the coefficient of friction between the face of the bearing and the clutch fingers to become greater than the bearing internal friction and the bearing then does what it is supposed to do, it rotates internally. Since the bearing is not designed to rotate all the time as it would quickly wear out, it should not rotate when the clutch is released nor should it rub on the clutch fingers. If the bearing were "bad" it would make the most noise when the clutch was fully depressed not when it was released. I hope this helps and let me know if I'm right. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharabi Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Rob, I don't believe the sound you are hearing is actually the Release bearing but rather the sound of the face of the bearing slipping on the clutch fingers. Now, before you jump to conclusions, hear me out, I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic like Blayne. The cause for the bearing to rub on the clutch fingers is due to insufficient clearance between the bearing and the clutch, in other words, the release mechanism is not allowing enough clearance. This I believe is due to air in the clutch hydraulic mechanism. Air is compressible while hydraulic fluid is not (pardon me if I'm stating the obvious). So, if you have air in the line, it will compress and act like a spring pressing on the bearing and driving it against the clutch fingers causing it to rub and make noise. When you start to depress the clutch, enough pressure is exerted to cause the coefficient of friction between the face of the bearing and the clutch fingers to become greater than the bearing internal friction and the bearing then does what it is supposed to do, it rotates internally. Since the bearing is not designed to rotate all the time as it would quickly wear out, it should not rotate when the clutch is released nor should it rub on the clutch fingers. If the bearing were "bad" it would make the most noise when the clutch was fully depressed not when it was released. I hope this helps and let me know if I'm right. Ted +1 Am quoting this from an old TSB but the principle should apply: Clutch whirring/rattle noise occurs when clutch pedal is depressed .............Worn, damaged or misaligned clutch release bearing........ Page 54 from the PDF http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/t...iles/991101.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Rob -- I think Ted's observation here is really worth looking into. As you stated earlier, one bearing came from Tremec and the other was from Ford's Oregon distribution center. This part has also been around since 2005. If you add in that we have not heard any stories of these bearings going bad on this forum or others, the odds of getting two bad bearings in a row are slim. You really don't want to keep having that transmission pulled out, IMO that will just lead to other problems. Also, with regards to air in the system, do any of these parts require a bench bleed before installation? If that was not done, even with the vacuum bleeder, there could still be a bit of air in the system. One other idea I have is it is my understanding you have one of the first, if not the first customer installed version of this transmission and some of the other parts that go with it. Could there be some unknown issue there causing this problem? I am not in engineering, but I work in computer operations and spend a lot of time troubleshooting. Typically with computer issues, the problem either has to do with being the first or recent work someone on the staff has done. Tim Look at post #1, there is another forum member going thru this same thing righ now. I talked to him on the phone yesterday at length. I am not the first one with this new tranny. I do have one of the only known nickle plated clutch hubs however. I am working on checking into the air in the system question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tispco Posted April 17, 2008 Report Share Posted April 17, 2008 Look at post #1, there is another forum member going thru this same thing righ now. I talked to him on the phone yesterday at length. I am not the first one with this new tranny. I do have one of the only known nickle plated clutch hubs however. I am working on checking into the air in the system question. Sorry about that I forgot about that in the first post!! I really hope you can get this resolved PERMANENTLY this time!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 Rob, I don't believe the sound you are hearing is actually the Release bearing but rather the sound of the face of the bearing slipping on the clutch fingers. Now, before you jump to conclusions, hear me out, I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic like Blayne. The cause for the bearing to rub on the clutch fingers is due to insufficient clearance between the bearing and the clutch, in other words, the release mechanism is not allowing enough clearance. This I believe is due to air in the clutch hydraulic mechanism. Air is compressible while hydraulic fluid is not (pardon me if I'm stating the obvious). So, if you have air in the line, it will compress and act like a spring pressing on the bearing and driving it against the clutch fingers causing it to rub and make noise. When you start to depress the clutch, enough pressure is exerted to cause the coefficient of friction between the face of the bearing and the clutch fingers to become greater than the bearing internal friction and the bearing then does what it is supposed to do, it rotates internally. Since the bearing is not designed to rotate all the time as it would quickly wear out, it should not rotate when the clutch is released nor should it rub on the clutch fingers. If the bearing were "bad" it would make the most noise when the clutch was fully depressed not when it was released. I hope this helps and let me know if I'm right. Ted Ted, I recieved no info from Ford today on your suggestion. However, I think you are onto something. I am not sure if everyone knows this but the master cylinder for the brake system is the same system that is tied into the hydrolic clutch system. When they use the suction pump to suck the air out of the system, it is done thru the brake resevoir on the drivers side. It's a duel purpose system. Anyways since Ted thought I might have some air trapped in the system I did this test after work today. Test: 1. Get in car and pump the brake pedal several times untill the pedal feels hard. 2. Start the car and leave it in nuetral and leave the clutch out after it is started. 3. I noticed the whine noise right away. 4. I then immediately pumped the brake pedal. 5. The whine went away immediately after 2 pumps. I then drove down to the dealership hoping to have my system vacuum pump suction blead, but my master tech had gone home. <_< I am not going to let them pull my tranny untill untill they do a real good suction pump bleed on my system. I really appreciate everyones ideas in helping me trouble shoot this problem. Especially you Ted. It's looking like you might of solved my problem. I am going to do this same test in the morning and then have the system suction pumped to try to get any air out of it that might be trapped. Maybe when I start the car in the morning the noise will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 rob, I talked about this with my guys and they said they are going with a power pumping process from the bottom of the system. They say it works better than a vacuum pump, since it essentially forces all air bubbles out from the bottom. I know cr*p about this stuff, so I will let them give it a try. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsfdiver Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 Just a thought Rob... I took my car to the dealer twice for oil change. First time: the guy treated it like a fleet van as far as putting it on the lift. when I went to Stang Hi Performance they put it on a lift for 3" exhaust I noticed oil all over the filter. At first I thought maybe a leak or not tight but it turns out the guy was just sloppy. Second time: (Stripe repair) I talked to the shop foreman expressing my thoughts on taking care of my car and having only good mechanics working on it. He agreed and I went ahead and had the oil changed again. I was about due and the stripe that came in was the wrong ones. A few days after the oil change I was showing off the motor to a friend and noticed the oil cap was cross threaded on a 1/4 turn only.... I will be changing my own oil from now on. When I start my car after it has sat awhile (cold) I hear what sounds like the throwout bearing whether the clutch is engaged or not. Once warm no throwout bearing sounding noise. I don't know what that means but I am almost certainly going to have trouble getting the dealer to touch it without messing something up. I will definitely interview all their mechanics till I find the one I know is really a master mechanic and hope for the best... The point I am trying to make is that I haven't but on a few occasions had a dealer mechanic do a good job. Once I took my Ranger in because it was overheating. The dealer called and told me I had a cracked head gasket. I asked how much $ He replied that I was better off getting a new engine. I picked up the truck drove it home. Went to the local watering hole and while talking to a new drinking buddy he suggested I change the water pump. Duh. I went to Autozone bought the pump installed it and no more overheating... Long story short: the dealer may be the problem (after the spline lube issue was resolved). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckySnake Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 rob, I talked about this with my guys and they said they are going with a power pumping process from the bottom of the system. They say it works better than a vacuum pump, since it essentially forces all air bubbles out from the bottom. I know cr*p about this stuff, so I will let them give it a try. John I don't think the bleeding technique is as important as just have it bleed completely, either you have air in the system or you don't. My GT500 had some air in the system after the clutch change, but it worked it's self out by actuating the pedal several times. A worn or dry throw out bearing bearing will rattle and make noise, when pressure is applied it will be quiet for awhile, after more time passes, the bearing will seize up and or come apart. Who else is using the nickel clutch hub? I wonder if the specifications are wrong and causing Robs problem? If this was an air in the system problem, why didn't mine have it? What are the chances of two bad bearings, I would have to say about 10,000 to 1. When I have a mechanical failure and a technician changes a part twice, and the problem come back, Big Red Flags start flying because more than likely something else is causing the failure. Good time to follow the advise of the people that designed and built the transmission and bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 rob, I talked about this with my guys and they said they are going with a power pumping process from the bottom of the system. They say it works better than a vacuum pump, since it essentially forces all air bubbles out from the bottom. I know cr*p about this stuff, so I will let them give it a try. John John, When you say bottom of the system, where do they hook up to it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 I don't think the bleeding technique is as important as just have it bleed completely, either you have air in the system or you don't. My GT500 had some air in the system after the clutch change, but it worked it's self out by actuating the pedal several times. A worn or dry throw out bearing bearing will rattle and make noise, when pressure is applied it will be quiet for awhile, after more time passes, the bearing will seize up and or come apart. Who else is using the nickel clutch hub? I wonder if the specifications are wrong and causing Robs problem? If this was an air in the system problem, why didn't mine have it? What are the chances of two bad bearings, I would have to say about 10,000 to 1. When I have a mechanical failure and a technician changes a part twice, and the problem come back, Big Red Flags start flying because more than likely something else is causing the failure. Good time to follow the advise of the people that designed and built the transmission and bearing. Blayne, Which pedal where they pumping on. Brake or clutch ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCMO-GT500 Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 rob, I'm kinda fuzzy on the hook up point, but I believe he was saying there was a bleed point near the clutch/tranny, kinda like on a brake line. they just hook a small pump system there and fill from the bottom to force air bubbles up and out. Pulling a vacuum from the top is seemingly no where near as effective if a bubble is trapped at an awkward location in the line. For a top vacuum to work on a trapped bubble, you would almost have to suck up all of the system, liquid and all, and then re introduce liquid into the vacuum. For bubbles in a pretty open set of lines, I suppose a lot of pumping accompanied by the vacuum would work ok. I am guessing that the effectiveness of any method of bleeding is dependent on the efforts of the mechanic. I think Blayne has a good handle on that part of the issue. oh, and good morning my friend. I felt my first earthquake this am, no shaking, but some popping of rafters etc. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500HP GT Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 Well, This one lasted about 95 miles and now it's screaming like a stuck pig. The first one that came with my new tranny screamed at me the next day. This is also happening to another member here on this site. ffr1229 has a 2008 GT500 and his bearing went out a couple weeks ago with under 100 miles on the car. His screamed at him for 45 seconds at start up. He just had the tranny pulled and a new release bearing installed, and now it only screams at him for 15 seconds. It's starting to look like Ford's release bearing vendor has some bad product out there. At least these 4 are bad that I know of. I wonder how many more are bad ??? My 3rd release bearing was ordered today. It will arrive tomorrow and be installed Friday morning 4/18/08. This will be the 3rd time I have seen my tranny out of my car. I just took this sound clip a few minutes ago to show you the lovely metal to metal sound that a sticky release bearing makes. This one does it for 20 seconds at start up. and then when I rev the car up a little it will do it a few more times. Screaming GT500 sound clip Ok, this is really not funny any more. I think someone owes Grabber a Super Snake package for all his troubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
06ragtopGT Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 These are the problems I have had with my car: 1. Rail dust rust on drivers quarter panel at delivery. Buff job required by a professional. 2. Bad drivers seat leather. Seat replaced. 3. Bad passenger window rubber guide. Replaced. 4. Tranny, clutch, flywheel replaced at 3587 miles. 5. Rear stripes cracked last month at both stripe overlap seams. Replaced. 6. Tranny pulled again for defective CSC bearing replacement (Release bearing). 7. Tranny pulled again for another bad CSC bearing. Wow Rob! I feel very lucky with my 14K+ miles (probably 40 passes at the strip) on my car to have not had any problems. My only issue is my passenger door handle has become loose from my kids jerking on it with the car is locked. As far as my tranny I guess mine is OK................? Now that its warmer my notchyness has gone away. Hate you are having so many issues. Hang in there bud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trichie Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 I don't think the bleeding technique is as important as just have it bleed completely, either you have air in the system or you don't. My GT500 had some air in the system after the clutch change, but it worked it's self out by actuating the pedal several times. A worn or dry throw out bearing bearing will rattle and make noise, when pressure is applied it will be quiet for awhile, after more time passes, the bearing will seize up and or come apart. Who else is using the nickel clutch hub? I wonder if the specifications are wrong and causing Robs problem? If this was an air in the system problem, why didn't mine have it? What are the chances of two bad bearings, I would have to say about 10,000 to 1. When I have a mechanical failure and a technician changes a part twice, and the problem come back, Big Red Flags start flying because more than likely something else is causing the failure. Good time to follow the advise of the people that designed and built the transmission and bearing. Blayne, It didn't sound like a rattling noise or dry bearing to me. I had this happen to me one time on a Toyota truck that I had just replaced the throw-out bearing on. The noise went away after some usage and never returned. I wrote it off to a tight bearing that was slipping on the clutch fingers. I'm not saying for sure it is air in the system, that is just a theory, but I do believe it is slipping on the clutch fingers. It may be that the bearing is too tight, too high of viscosity grease was used or the tolerance between the release mechanism and the clutch fingers too tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 I have been advised that the test I did with the brake pedal pumping is an interesting test, but they think the diagnosis is incorrect. I have been told that the release bearing is in constant contact with the clutch fingers (there is bearing, hence the name, inside the release cylinder which accommodates the differential in clutch vs input shaft speed during engagement).If anything, air in the system inhibits release NOT engagement.The brake hydraulic system (by necessity for redundant safety reasons) functions separately from the clutch system and shares only a reservoir. There is no mechanism to have the clutch hydraulic status affect brake system and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 As I posted yesterday my car only whined at start up for a few seconds. I just started it after it has sat for over 16-1/2 hours and the only thing I did different was that I pumped the clutch and brake pedal 2 times. The car only whined for 1-2 seconds at start up and then it immediately went away. I could not make it whine when I increased the RPM's too. I think the bearing is loosening up or gettin broke in. Ford Engineering assistance has been great and is concerned at getting my car fixed. I have been told that the bearing noise may go away on it's own with some use. In regards to having air in the system, since I don't have more that 1/4 inch of a soft spot in the top of the clutch stroke on the pedal, there is most likely no air in the system. Pumping the pedal will get the air worked out, if there is any in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 Jim, What's your car doing ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ffr1229 Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 Hi Rob, Early this morning I was going to try the brake pump test again but screwed up by not remembering to pump it before starting, so I shut it off and started it again. Long story short is that in doing all that I really have no definitive results other than I did have the whine at startup. Later today I will try the clutch pumping. I just checked my clutch pedal and have no more than about a quarter inch of free play. It is 42 degrees now with a high of 48 predicted, with showers possible but plan on at least 1 short trip today. Thanks for asking. You are doing all the detective work while I can stand back and observe. Thanks again. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trichie Posted April 18, 2008 Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 As I posted yesterday my car only whined at start up for a few seconds. I just started it after it has sat for over 16-1/2 hours and the only thing I did different was that I pumped the clutch and brake pedal 2 times. The car only whined for 1-2 seconds at start up and then it immediately went away. I could not make it whine when I increased the RPM's too. I think the bearing is loosening up or gettin broke in. Ford Engineering assistance has been great and is concerned at getting my car fixed. I have been told that the bearing noise may go away on it's own with some use. In regards to having air in the system, since I don't have more that 1/4 inch of a soft spot in the top of the clutch stroke on the pedal, there is most likely no air in the system. Pumping the pedal will get the air worked out too. Rob, I suspect you are right, the noise will probably go away. I still stick with my original diagnosis of the bearing slipping/rubbing on the clutch diaphragm fingers. It may be that as the bearing gets used, the grease will loosen up a bit and allow the bearing to rotate internally instead of slipping on the clutch fingers. The air in the line was just a theory but plausible. Anyway, I hope it all works out for you, god knows, you've had a string of bad luck with your car. I hope I don't have to go through what you have had to. By the way, I'm thinking of shipping my car to the lower 48 to take it to a road course track. We don't have any here in Alaska and I'd like to drive it on one. Perhaps after it arrives in Seattle, I can drop in and visit. It won't be for probably a year or two. I want to take some high speed driving classes first. Take care and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 rob, I'm kinda fuzzy on the hook up point, but I believe he was saying there was a bleed point near the clutch/tranny, kinda like on a brake line. they just hook a small pump system there and fill from the bottom to force air bubbles up and out. Pulling a vacuum from the top is seemingly no where near as effective if a bubble is trapped at an awkward location in the line. For a top vacuum to work on a trapped bubble, you would almost have to suck up all of the system, liquid and all, and then re introduce liquid into the vacuum. For bubbles in a pretty open set of lines, I suppose a lot of pumping accompanied by the vacuum would work ok. I am guessing that the effectiveness of any method of bleeding is dependent on the efforts of the mechanic. I think Blayne has a good handle on that part of the issue. oh, and good morning my friend. I felt my first earthquake this am, no shaking, but some popping of rafters etc. John John, This is how our friend reccomends it be done: Pumping the pedal is the proscribed method to purge the air from the system. Applying a vacuum (take a hand pump, evacuate reservoir to 15 inHg) and then pumping the pedal is the best way. Take an old cap, drill a hole in it, epoxy a metal vacuum coupler into it, and then use that as the tool. After this is done, you should feel no more than a 1/4" or so of "soft" pedal at the top of the clutch stroke, then there is most likely no air in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted April 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2008 It has been 9 hours since I started my car. Since Ford engineering told me that pumping the clutch pedal is a way of working air out of the system, I thought I would pump the pedal several times prior to starting it. I am pretty happy with the Start....to say the least. Take a listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingram4868 Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 I assume that if you didn't pump the pedal before starting the car that the noise would return? Is there a more permanent fix that they are working on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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