Dealership Experiences

[Dad's72Mach]

Town and Country Ford in Bessemer Alabama, great people real Mustang enthusiasts, straight deal.

Also Golden Circle Ford in Jackson TN. They still have a 08 Black Vert they offered me for sticker, just had too many options I didn't want. Also great experience.

I would highly recommend either one of these dealers.

[Dave-Washington]

Glad to hear of your good experience;

How about some more detail. What car did you buy????????

 

Color- Options- Price-Details please???????????

 

 

DDT,

 

I'm a proud member of the GT500 Black Vert Mafia. The car had the Nav system, as opposed to the Shaker 1000, which was fine by me. The dealer had already picked up the 'official' car cover, so I got that as well. Most the usual options. I paid MSRP. The dealers in Washington are still asking 15k ADM's for some reason. One of them asked how much I paid and was sure I was lying to him when I told him. Ah well, they'll get with it someday.

 

The car was in terrific shape. It had picked up a couple of extra miles from the original pictures, but that was because they ran it down to the service station to fill the tank; they don't keep premium on the lot.

[DDT]

DDT,

 

I'm a proud member of the GT500 Black Vert Mafia. The car had the Nav system, as opposed to the Shaker 1000, which was fine by me. The dealer had already picked up the 'official' car cover, so I got that as well. Most the usual options. I paid MSRP. The dealers in Washington are still asking 15k ADM's for some reason. One of them asked how much I paid and was sure I was lying to him when I told him. Ah well, they'll get with it someday.

 

The car was in terrific shape. It had picked up a couple of extra miles from the original pictures, but that was because they ran it down to the service station to fill the tank; they don't keep premium on the lot.

 

When car salesman call customers "LIARS".................

 

Your happy with the car and got a graet deal............ :happy feet:

 

But remember that RED is faster???????????

[sdt]

I got my 2008 vapor/black stripe coupe from Tom Jones Ford In Buckeye, Arizona for MSRP. They were an absolute pleasure to deal with. The car was delivered to Alaska last week as promised. I would recommend them without reservation. My local Ford stealerships still want 10 to 15 thousand ADM for Shelby Mustangs. Even after $2300 in shipping cost, buying the car in Arizona worked to be a much better deal.

[DDT]

I got my 2008 vapor/black stripe coupe from Tom Jones Ford In Buckeye, Arizona for MSRP. They were an absolute pleasure to deal with. The car was delivered to Alaska last week as promised. I would recommend them without reservation. My local Ford stealerships still want 10 to 15 thousand ADM for Shelby Mustangs. Even after $2300 in shipping cost, buying the car in Arizona worked to be a much better deal.

 

Great deal;

I think yours will be one of the fewer cars in that color with the black stripes........

 

I only saw one GT500 Coupe at the Duarte Dealer and really stands out in the sunlight.........

 

Enjoy the ride..........

[hotrodric]

For me it is just to much energy waisted to continue dwell on the prices of these cars. SD is right that we (the buyers) set the market, dealers only add ADM because we are willing to pay it. It is the same with most anything we purchase, cars, houses, or whatever supply-demand, you know, economics 101. Anyway, like any hobby, we pay to participate. If it is your daily means of transportation, that is different and to me that is where most of us have the problem separating the cost of our hobby vs the cost of transportation. I purchased this car for the fun it brings, and for the social opportunities owning it creates via car shows and events with like minded people. Nothing more or nothing less. If it is transportation you need, buy a Prius, after all the mileage is much better. But if you want to have fun with a car and with others who feel the same, price should not be your primary concern. For those of you on the fence and still waiting, each event or opportunity to meet and interface with others is forever lost and can never be replaced. Summer is here and the shows and events are almost in full swing. Don't let a few dollars in ADM stop you from having fun this summer.

 

Just my opinion.

 

RM

 

edit; spelling

[CRQuarto]

I bought my '08 Vapor/Black on April 25th at Galpin Ford in San Fernando. When I first started looking at mustangs, I originally thought that the GT500 was out of my reach due to the ADM, so I was focusing on the Roush 427 or 428. Then, my roommate informed me that he had heard that the ADM's on the GT500's were coming off finally at some dealerships. I decided that if I could in fact find one for said price, I would jump on it.

 

And so the search began.

 

Well, needless to say, dealerships were quick to say over the phone that they could let one go for sticker. However, upon arriving at the dealership, they would then claim they had never said they would do sticker, but that they would work on the ADM a little. Nice, jerk me around a little, after all I just look like a young kid to them that isn't really serious about buying one of these things. Sunset Ford and Ken Grody were the worst to deal with. Both salesmen simply laughed at me when I said I wanted it for sticker, and then walked off when I said I was serious. Needless to say, I will NEVER go back to either, other than to drive through with the beast and wave at them. So, after calling around to numerous dealerships and visiting them, it appeared that my search was a futile one and I was not going to find one for sticker, or even a little over it. Then, at work, someone mentioned that they had heard that Galpin Ford gave special consideration to law enforcement and fire fighters. So, I of course give Galpin a call. I talked to Oscar Granados, and he informed me that yes Galpin does have a large selection of GT500s, and yes they give consideration to law enforcement, and to come on down. So, I head on over to Galpin.

 

On arriving, I was met by Oscar and another salesman, Rueben Correra, both who treated not only myself but my roommate and girlfriend with almost VIP like status. Hungry? They brought us something from the restaurant attached to the dealership. Thirsty? Again, it appeared.

 

After we sat down and worked out what I could afford payment wise, they realized I was asking for a GT500 at sticker...or lower. At first it did not seem doable simply because I would have to do not only a down payment, but also get a lot more for my trade than any other dealership had offered. So, they brought in the sales manager to see what could be done. After haggling with the credit to get my APR in a good range, he then also went and asked the owner of all of Galpin, Bert Boeckman, what could be done. Mr. Boeckman then told the sales manager, "Get him the car, do whatever it takes." So, I ended up getting $1,500 more for my trade than anyone else would offer, an APR I wanted, the car I wanted, for less than sticker. $44,956 out the door, with a signed visor promised to me from Carroll Shelby as well. I was then taken to GAS across the street and we were given a tour of the entire shop, met all the guys over there and checked out their personal rides (including one bad ass red BOSS 302...you might have seen it ), and the personal car collection of Mr. Boeckman, which included everything from Aston Martins to GT350s, GT500s, GT500KRs, GT-Hs, and a TON of classics in perfect condition. Amazing.

 

BUT, before I got the APR I wanted, it took a lot of work to get a bank to finance for me, because of my age and the amount of the loan. While they waited for me to nail down the loan, they gave me free of charge a rental car so I didn't have to drive my trade in, for an entire week, as well as held the GT500 I had picked out for me. VERY nice of them.

 

I still get a phone call every week since I bought the car from Oscar, asking if the car is working out, and if there is anything I need, and how I am doing. He also found out somehow about my blown out knee, and called to ask if I needed anything. I also got an email from Mr. Boeckman as well asking if everything was ok with the car, and if I was satisfied with the level of service I got, and then informed me he had my visor on his desk, and could I come in this Friday and meet with him to talk, and to get the visor. He said he had some interesting things to tell me and that he had some other things to give me, and some events coming up he wanted me to go to.

 

All in all, I am so blown away by the experience. I had had NOTHING but headaches and heartaches trying to get into this car, until I went over to Galpin. I will send anyone that asks about buying a car in their direction, and I fully intend to buy another car from them someday.

[owenkelley]

Great story! Sounds like the type of treatment you expect from a small town dealer, not a big name like Galpin. Their follow-up sounds amazing! That is the kind of service that gets you lots of referrals, and word of mouth is the best (or worst ) advertising you can get.

[Boston Mike]

With regards to my purchasing my '08 triple black vert GT500, it was as simple a process as possible. Called the dealer who had it listed, asked what sticker was (52,800 with all the options, etc) and told them I'd be willing to do 55,000 (on hindsight, I should have gone lower, but was willing to pay that). They agreed, despite the ADM of 25,000. Gave them a CC for a deposit overnight, drove out there the next am (about 30miles away) signed and drove off the lot. Very easy. Now, dealing with my trade and getting my cash out for that was a different story. They lost the title I signed over to them and it took 3 weeks to get a replacement title to complete the trade in. Just got my plates (now 8 weeks post purchase). But loving this car.........just took in for her first mods (FRPP SGT axle backs, JLT CAI kit and custom dyno tunes............one for summer driving......482 rwhp.......... and one for the rest of the year.....497 rwhp). Now sounds like the racecar it is.

[DDT]

I bought my '08 Vapor/Black on April 25th at Galpin Ford in San Fernando.

 

All in all, I am so blown away by the experience. I had had NOTHING but headaches and heartaches trying to get into this car, until I went over to Galpin. I will send anyone that asks about buying a car in their direction, and I fully intend to buy another car from them someday.

 

Great Story;

Glad you got a great deal and Galpin is treating you like a CELEBRITY.........

 

However my experience with Galpin was 180 the other way..............

 

I was told by Darren that I could "NEVER" purchase the GT500 for MSRP and they were getting 25k+ADM

on all their GT500s. Basically they treated me like a MUSHROOM.................

 

Guess I should have told them I was in Law Enforcement??????????????

[CRQuarto]

Great Story;

Glad you got a great deal and Galpin is treating you like a CELEBRITY.........

 

However my experience with Galpin was 180 the other way..............

 

I was told by Darren that I could "NEVER" purchase the GT500 for MSRP and they were getting 25k+ADM

on all their GT500s. Basically they treated me like a MUSHROOM.................

 

Guess I should have told them I was in Law Enforcement??????????????

 

 

Honestly, I would have to say I believe it was the people I dealt with. Even before I mentioned I am a Deputy I was treated with the upmost respect.

 

Then again, the first three times I went to Ken Grody when I was looking at the Roush, they treated me great, then when I went back a couple times to look at the GT500 they treated me like crap. Who knows.....

[DDT]

Honestly, I would have to say I believe it was the people I dealt with. Even before I mentioned I am a Deputy I was treated with the upmost respect.

 

Then again, the first three times I went to Ken Grody when I was looking at the Roush, they treated me great, then when I went back a couple times to look at the GT500 they treated me like crap. Who knows.....

 

 

Ya it is a much better feeling and we can laugh talking about it now that we have our cars.

 

Saturday mornings is a good time to meet enthusiests and their cars at "CARS AND COFFEE"

in IRVINE at the Corperate Ford Building next to the Irvine Spectrum 5FRWY exit Alten PK Way.

 

Think I will be there in the morning..........Usually 6AM to around 9 or 9:30AM...............

[Boss Doctor]

Last October, I took my wife into Crown Ford in Nashville to buy her an Edge even though her Freestyle was less than 2 years old. This was to be the 4th new car purchased from this dealership less than 3 years, (05 Focus, 06 Freestyle, 06 GT bought before). They had a silver GT500 with black stripes on the floor, and I was admiring it when the salesman asked me why I wasn't buying it. I told him there was no way in hell I'd pay mark-up on ANY car. He told me I could pay MSRP, to which I responded that he was lying. He assured me that he wasn't because the owner thought th e time for getting mark-up on these vehicles had passed. I asked if they'd take a deposit and hold the car for two weeks for me to get a small insurance settlement, and the sales manager refused. Two weeks later I came back to be told by the other sales manager that some guy came off the street and gave them $500 to hold the car for two weeks while he got an insurance settlement. Needless to say I was livid that they wouldn't do that for me when I'd purchased 4 new cars from them in less than 3 years! Long story short, they allowed me to order my 2008 GT500 as I wanted it for MSRP, but they told me I'd have my car within 6-8 weeks.

 

After waiting 17 weeks, my car finally arrived: however, Ford Motor Credit raised the interest rate on me by 6% because of too many inquiries on my credit bureau. The thing is, the inquiries were from the dealership shopping me around for my wife's car 4 months prior. WTF!!?? No other finance company would carry the $7,000 balance from the car that I traded, (06 GT), on top of the GT500, so I was stuck with FMC. The dealership made up for it by giving me the car for $2,000 under MSRP.

 

Dealership: Ok I guess

Ford Motor Credit: SUCKS!!

[ShelbyDude]

Last October, I took my wife into Crown Ford in Nashville to buy her an Edge even though her Freestyle was less than 2 years old. This was to be the 4th new car purchased from this dealership less than 3 years, (05 Focus, 06 Freestyle, 06 GT bought before). They had a silver GT500 with black stripes on the floor, and I was admiring it when the salesman asked me why I wasn't buying it. I told him there was no way in hell I'd pay mark-up on ANY car. He told me I could pay MSRP, to which I responded that he was lying. He assured me that he wasn't because the owner thought th e time for getting mark-up on these vehicles had passed. I asked if they'd take a deposit and hold the car for two weeks for me to get a small insurance settlement, and the sales manager refused. Two weeks later I came back to be told by the other sales manager that some guy came off the street and gave them $500 to hold the car for two weeks while he got an insurance settlement. Needless to say I was livid that they wouldn't do that for me when I'd purchased 4 new cars from them in less than 3 years! Long story short, they allowed me to order my 2008 GT500 as I wanted it for MSRP, but they told me I'd have my car within 6-8 weeks.

 

After waiting 17 weeks, my car finally arrived: however, Ford Motor Credit raised the interest rate on me by 6% because of too many inquiries on my credit bureau. The thing is, the inquiries were from the dealership shopping me around for my wife's car 4 months prior. WTF!!?? No other finance company would carry the $7,000 balance from the car that I traded, (06 GT), on top of the GT500, so I was stuck with FMC. The dealership made up for it by giving me the car for $2,000 under MSRP.

 

Dealership: Ok I guess

Ford Motor Credit: SUCKS!!

 

 

 

What was the rate?

 

Those 6 inquiries should only count as ONE if they were all within 30 days and inquiries pertaining to a car loan. Car loans and mortgage inquiries count as ONE inquiry when they are within a certain time period. So you should not have had to pay a higher rate because of it.

 

Also, this is not suppose to affect your FICO score. Do you know what your score was before the inquiries and what it was after? If it dropped because of the inquiries you need to dispute that with the credit bureaus.

 

If anything, the reason for getting a higher rate would be because of the over advance from the negative equity. That will cause a higher rate.

 

I can not believe no other bank would buy that. Most banks will finance 120% - 130% of invoice on a new car. A few will go 140%.

 

With a invoice cost of $42k a 130% would allow a loan of $54,600

 

Also, do you know what the buy rate was VS the retail rate? Ford Credit allows you to bump the rate by 3%. More than what most lenders allow.

 

I would try to refinance it now that you have it. Try local credit unions. They usually offer the best rates and they treat used 08 as a new car loan which allows you to get the new car rates.

 

Right now the local credit unions here are offering 4.24% on 2008 and newer. Anyone can become a member by just opening a savings account with $25.

[Boss Doctor]

What was the rate?

 

Those 6 inquiries should only count as ONE if they were all within 30 days and inquiries pertaining to a car loan. Car loans and mortgage inquiries count as ONE inquiry when they are within a certain time period. So you should not have had to pay a higher rate because of it.

 

Also, this is not suppose to affect your FICO score. Do you know what your score was before the inquiries and what it was after? If it dropped because of the inquiries you need to dispute that with the credit bureaus.

 

If anything, the reason for getting a higher rate would be because of the over advance from the negative equity. That will cause a higher rate.

 

I can not believe no other bank would buy that. Most banks will finance 120% - 130% of invoice on a new car. A few will go 140%.

 

With a invoice cost of $42k a 130% would allow a loan of $54,600

 

Also, do you know what the buy rate was VS the retail rate? Ford Credit allows you to bump the rate by 3%. More than what most lenders allow.

 

I would try to refinance it now that you have it. Try local credit unions. They usually offer the best rates and they treat used 08 as a new car loan which allows you to get the new car rates.

 

Right now the local credit unions here are offering 4.24% on 2008 and newer. Anyone can become a member by just opening a savings account with $25.

 

It jumped from 10% to 16%. They claimed that I was right at a breaking point between tiers although I was at "tier 2" when I bought my wife's car, (which I got at 3.99%), and at "Tier 5" when I got my GT500. WTF!? Apparently, tiers vary according to the car model being purchased as well as your credit score. I heard the owner arguing with someone high up at FMC about the whole thing. The sales manager said FMC was going to charge 20%, but the owner of the dealership argued them down to 16%. It pisses me off that I've had all those cars financed through FMC, (although I refinanced two of them later at HSBC), and I have always been ahead on my payments. I consoled myself with the fact that everywhere else in town was still charging $10,000 to $20,000 over MSRP for their cars.

 

I found out after the fact that there was an erroneous "judgement" entered on my credit bureau that has since been corrected, (I do need to follow up on that to make sure), but the damage was already done. Still, you'd think I would have been treated better by FMC considering my record with them, the house, and all the other lines of credit that have with a perfect payment history.

 

I would refinance, but I'd lose GAP Insurance - which is pretty important when carrying $7,000 of negative equity on a car that I'm sure numerous people would love to steal. I work at Dell Inc. in Nashville, and our parking lot is a prime target for thieves. Am I wrong in that thinking? Or do you know of a place that offers GAP Insurance too?

[ShelbyDude]

It jumped from 10% to 16%. They claimed that I was right at a breaking point between tiers although I was at "tier 2" when I bought my wife's car, (which I got at 3.99%), and at "Tier 5" when I got my GT500. WTF!? Apparently, tiers vary according to the car model being purchased as well as your credit score. I heard the owner arguing with someone high up at FMC about the whole thing. The sales manager said FMC was going to charge 20%, but the owner of the dealership argued them down to 16%. It pisses me off that I've had all those cars financed through FMC, (although I refinanced two of them later at HSBC), and I have always been ahead on my payments. I consoled myself with the fact that everywhere else in town was still charging $10,000 to $20,000 over MSRP for their cars.

 

I found out after the fact that there was an erroneous "judgement" entered on my credit bureau that has since been corrected, (I do need to follow up on that to make sure), but the damage was already done. Still, you'd think I would have been treated better by FMC considering my record with them, the house, and all the other lines of credit that have with a perfect payment history.

 

I would refinance, but I'd lose GAP Insurance - which is pretty important when carrying $7,000 of negative equity on a car that I'm sure numerous people would love to steal. I work at Dell Inc. in Nashville, and our parking lot is a prime target for thieves. Am I wrong in that thinking? Or do you know of a place that offers GAP Insurance too?

 

 

I'm pretty sure most lenders can offer gap and if not your insurance company can and probably for less.

 

I went through some of the same BS with Ford Credit years ago. Long before ever being in this business. Ever since I first started buying cars. I would go from a special 4.8% rate on one loan only to have them charge 16% on the next! And I never had any negative equity rolling over. Of course that was also back in the day when Ford Credit did not cap the dealers on how much they could bump the rates. At one time they were allowed to charge anything over the buy rate they wanted (from what I was told anyway). Now they cap the dealer at 3% max. For example, if their buy rate is 7% the dealer could charge you 10% and they make that 3% spread as additional profit.

 

But ever since then after having Ford Credit pull that crap with me I refuse to ever let them have a loan. I take all my business elsewhere and I work for a dealer!

 

I don't understand the logic they come up with to justify their decision making. I don't know if this due to policy based on certain criteria or coming from dumb asses working at Ford Credit or a combination of both or what. I do know they use their own internal scoring system which based on how you score determines what tier you fall into. Tier 0 is the best. They have Tier 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Tier 5 is typically an automatic denial. Tier 4 requires calling in to get final approval and make sure any stipulations are meet.

 

Check with your insurance company on the gap. Also, you shouldn't lose any gap you have just by refinancing. You PAID for that gap which was added into the amount you financed. So the gap is already paid for. You are merely refinancing the balance owed. The company that sold the gap was paid in full for that when you got your loan.

 

If you were to buy gap again from another company then you should get a credit for the gap you paid for when you bought that at the time of buying the car. They may pro-rate the cost and you will at least get a partial refund.

 

How much did they charge you for the gap? It should be listed as a seperate charge on your bill of sale.

[Boss Doctor]

I'm pretty sure most lenders can offer gap and if not your insurance company can and probably for less.

 

I went through some of the same BS with Ford Credit years ago. Long before ever being in this business. Ever since I first started buying cars. I would go from a special 4.8% rate on one loan only to have them charge 16% on the next! And I never had any negative equity rolling over. Of course that was also back in the day when Ford Credit did not cap the dealers on how much they could bump the rates. At one time they were allowed to charge anything over the buy rate they wanted (from what I was told anyway). Now they cap the dealer at 3% max. For example, if their buy rate is 7% the dealer could charge you 10% and they make that 3% spread as additional profit.

 

But ever since then after having Ford Credit pull that crap with me I refuse to ever let them have a loan. I take all my business elsewhere and I work for a dealer!

 

I don't understand the logic they come up with to justify their decision making. I don't know if this due to policy based on certain criteria or coming from dumb asses working at Ford Credit or a combination of both or what. I do know they use their own internal scoring system which based on how you score determines what tier you fall into. Tier 0 is the best. They have Tier 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Tier 5 is typically an automatic denial. Tier 4 requires calling in to get final approval and make sure any stipulations are meet.

 

Check with your insurance company on the gap. Also, you shouldn't lose any gap you have just by refinancing. You PAID for that gap which was added into the amount you financed. So the gap is already paid for. You are merely refinancing the balance owed. The company that sold the gap was paid in full for that when you got your loan.

 

If you were to buy gap again from another company then you should get a credit for the gap you paid for when you bought that at the time of buying the car. They may pro-rate the cost and you will at least get a partial refund.

 

How much did they charge you for the gap? It should be listed as a seperate charge on your bill of sale.

 

My insurance company doesn't offer GAP. They said that is something the financing company offers, and normally only when the vehicle is first purchased. I shopped insurance companies at the same time, and they all said the same thing. When I refinanced the other two vehicles I checked with the finance companies about it. They all said GAP is typically done my companies such as FMC on initial purchases of new cars, and not on used or refi's.

 

GAP Insurance added about $6 per month on the car payment. When I refinanced the other cars, FMC refunded the prorate difference to me directly.

[NCStangFanatic]

I almost financed my car through my insurance company (State Farm) and they ofered GAP insurance as well. I ended up going with a bank because I got a slightly better interest rate.

[ShelbyDude]

I almost financed my car through my insurance company (State Farm) and they ofered GAP insurance as well. I ended up going with a bank because I got a slightly better interest rate.

 

 

Was that State Farm Bank or Credit Union?

 

State Farm Credit Union here is 3.9% or 4.9%. Their bank is higher.

[ShelbyDude]

My insurance company doesn't offer GAP. They said that is something the financing company offers, and normally only when the vehicle is first purchased. I shopped insurance companies at the same time, and they all said the same thing. When I refinanced the other two vehicles I checked with the finance companies about it. They all said GAP is typically done my companies such as FMC on initial purchases of new cars, and not on used or refi's.

 

GAP Insurance added about $6 per month on the car payment. When I refinanced the other cars, FMC refunded the prorate difference to me directly.

 

 

GAP is available on ALL cars. New or used.

 

Every insurance company I talked to around here said they offer it.

 

About Gap Auto Insurance Coverage

This type of coverage is a must have for any new car purchase, as the car’s value drops significantly as soon as it is driven off the car lot. Gap auto insurance is not required when you buy a new car, but in the case of an accident, this type of coverage can protect your investment. More and more auto insurance companies are starting to offer gap insurance, including AIG, Progressive, and Allstate. In fact, many states now require that all companies who sell auto insurance also offer this additional coverage. If your current company does not offer gap auto insurance, you can often purchase it from a company as an independent policy.

 

 

Do a google search for gap insurance. If your bank or insurance company does not offer it you can buy it yourself.

[NCStangFanatic]

Was that State Farm Bank or Credit Union?

 

State Farm Credit Union here is 3.9% or 4.9%. Their bank is higher.

 

State Farm Bank.

[Boss Doctor]

GAP is available on ALL cars. New or used.

 

Every insurance company I talked to around here said they offer it.

 

About Gap Auto Insurance Coverage

This type of coverage is a must have for any new car purchase, as the car’s value drops significantly as soon as it is driven off the car lot. Gap auto insurance is not required when you buy a new car, but in the case of an accident, this type of coverage can protect your investment. More and more auto insurance companies are starting to offer gap insurance, including AIG, Progressive, and Allstate. In fact, many states now require that all companies who sell auto insurance also offer this additional coverage. If your current company does not offer gap auto insurance, you can often purchase it from a company as an independent policy.

 

 

Do a google search for gap insurance. If your bank or insurance company does not offer it you can buy it yourself.

 

Wow! Allstate was one of the ones who told me they didn't offer it. Do you think it could vary from state to state?

[ShelbyDude]

Wow! Allstate was one of the ones who told me they didn't offer it. Do you think it could vary from state to state?

 

 

Don't know, but with a company like Allstate you would think something like this is uniform across the country.

 

Maybe you just got someone that didn't know and rather find out they just assumed no?