Trade-off wish list

[JETSOLVER]

So I get to wondering what REALISTICALLY we could ask Ford for and what we may have to give up due to production, cost, servicabilty. At this point I cannot see them offering anyhting other than a MOD onthe S-197 as it just wouldn't intergrate with current production. The Hurricane may be avail on a 2010 reengineered S-197 but I just can't see them starting a new series engine on a performance application without some "plebian" use(trucks) to confirm the design brief. Having said that, we have to wonder what is reasonable to add performance to either the 4.6, or the 5.4 existing engines. I don't think we will see a 5.4 Al block or they would have already done it, so I'm thinking something along the lines of the 01 4.6 COBRA engine with the 6060 6-speed to allow us to keep the smaller engine in the sweet spot. Now we can either trade factory high compression for slightly lower with an eye to forced induction, or ask for the good slugs and accept the same compromise that the LS-7 engine has. I'm going to estimate the 4.6 NA at about 200lbs lighter than the Shelby engine and say another 80-100 lbs of additional weight around cooling and fluids. That is a pretty good number at about 3650 (and we still haven't factored in other stuff like stereo's and leather, power, heated seats, etc. So give back another 50-80lb's there and it kinda looks doable and a better weight distribution as well(say 54/46 or 55/45 for discussion). So to me that looks like good use of existing hard parts and please, lets leave the styling to another discussion. That sort of thing can be done on a dime and does not really affect performance. Just had another thought, to get the 4 valve to work on the S-197 it will require another intake along the lines of the one that 68 Fastback posted a SEMA picture of . Is that a deal killer? Personally I don't want the current 4.6 iron 3-valve anywhere near this car. I don't think it has the kind of elegance we want to see in a new BOSS. (And I would prefer the charge motion plates and all that hardware were left on the counter to lower weight) So fire away!!

[MustangFanatic]

It is doubtful that Ford will offer anything other than a MOD engine (or derivative) in the current body style Mustang. For '08, I think we will see the return of the 5.0L for the Boss.

 

For the restyle in either '09 or '10, depending upon which rumor you choose to believe, we might see a Hurricane engine in the big dog replacement for the GT500 (Boss 351 maybe?)

 

For the Boss, I would expect a stroked version of the '99-'01 4.6 Alloy block with a set of deep breathing 4V heads, similar to the '03 Cobra/'00 Cobra R heads with some hi-compression slugs and forged rods. I don't believe developing a unique intake would be a deal killer, it wasn't for the Bullitt. I'd also prefer the good pieces, forged pistons, rods, etc. with an eye to durability and light weight. In keeping with the Boss theme, the engine should be hi-compression, free revving powerplant, no forced induction necessary.

 

For option, all the Boss really needs is A/C, PS, PB, PW and PDL. A standard single CD Stereo is all the Boss needs, the really music will be singing from the exhaust!! The front seats should be well-bolstered cloth and the rear seat isn't even required. The use of aluminum and composite materials should be used for the body panels.

[68fastback]

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I think we're all on the same page here regarding the Boss/S197.

 

Up to 450ft-lbs, I think Ford would stay with the T56 -- no need to bear the extra weight of the 6060, and the closer ratios available in T56 fit an NA road car better, I think. Also since forced-fed 'Vette will spec the 6060 and tat will be only the second car to use it, it probably make more sense all around (cost/weight/availablility) for the T56 in the Boss.

 

I agree a stroked 4.6 is most likely how Ford would get to 302 (spray-bore aside, since I have no windage on whether Ford has actually been pursuing production-level readiness for that). With forged goodies and h-beams, it should be able to see 6,800 factory-rpm without excessive risk/wear/pumping-losses.

 

The intake is farily key to me. To use the Ford-GT heads (essential to get beyond 350hp or so and run clean) with the '01 Cobra intake will require port work, but little more. It should also be abrasive-flowed like the '01 Cobra (and Ford-GT; and the GT500??). That combo at 5.0L, tuned right should yield 400HP, the magin number for the Camaro. At 3650lbs (maybe a bit less with the T56) that's a nice, manufactueable, min-investment pkg, I think.

 

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[JETSOLVER]

OK next question. Ford is obviously having supply isssues with all the Mustang manuals, where are we gonna get tranny's from? Adn as to weight, would we want to spring for spare delete, a factory trunk mounted battery(Chrysler did it with the 300/Magnum) and a less than high end hood? In other words would you give up the shaker for performance hard parts?

[MustangFanatic]

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I think we're all on the same page here regarding the Boss/S197.

 

Up to 450ft-lbs, I think Ford would stay with the T56 -- no need to bear the extra weight of the 6060, and the closer ratios available in T56 fit an NA road car better, I think. Also since forced-fed 'Vette will spec the 6060 and tat will be only the second car to use it, it probably make more sense all around (cost/weight/availablility) for the T56 in the Boss.

 

I agree a stroked 4.6 is most likely how Ford would get to 302 (spray-bore aside, since I have no windage on whether Ford has actually been pursuing production-level readiness for that). With forged goodies and h-beams, it should be able to see 6,800 factory-rpm without excessive risk/wear/pumping-losses.

 

The intake is farily key to me. To use the Ford-GT heads (essential to get beyond 350hp or so and run clean) with the '01 Cobra intake will require port work, but little more. It should also be abrasive-flowed like the '01 Cobra (and Ford-GT; and the GT500??). That combo at 5.0L, tuned right should yield 400HP, the magin number for the Camaro. At 3650lbs (maybe a bit less with the T56) that's a nice, manufactueable, min-investment pkg, I think.

 

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OK next question. Ford is obviously having supply isssues with all the Mustang manuals, where are we gonna get tranny's from? Adn as to weight, would we want to spring for spare delete, a factory trunk mounted battery(Chrysler did it with the 300/Magnum) and a less than high end hood? In other words would you give up the shaker for performance hard parts?

 

 

I agree with your logic regarding the transmission choice, I hadn't thought through all of the logistics but the T56 is certainly the most reasonsable choice. However, as Jetsolver pointed out, transmission supply is an currently an issue. Richmond Gear might be an alternative but I don't their manufacturing capacity, they are likely too small to be an OEM supplier.

 

http://www.richmondgear.com/01sixspeed.html

 

ZF Transmission has supplied transmission to Chevrolet before for the Corvette so that could be a potential (albeit costly) option.

 

http://www.zf-group.com/am/pc/pt/ampcpt05.phtml#manual

 

Regarding the intake, Ford could certainly use the '01 Cobra Intake as a starting point but I would prefer a clean sheet approach. Developing a new intake would not consume an excessive amount of R&D dollars to complete.

 

My preference would be for Ford to use their limited R&D budget to develop high quality hard performance parts (like good pistons, rods and the aforementioned intake) and leave products like the Shaker hood to the aftermarket. The emphasis for the Boss should be on performance.

 

Non-performance parts I would sacrifice for hi-po engine and suspension hardware would include:

• Shaker Hood

• Rear Window Slats

• Stripes (make them Optional)

• Leather Interior

• Mega-watt Stereo Systems

• Power Seats

• Cruise Control

• No spare (or at least a lightweight spare)

• Interior Appearance Packages

• Side Airbags

 

[68fastback]

<edit:>

 

see a couple posts down -- this one didn't post right...

 

V

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[MustangFanatic]

+1!!!! I'd love to see the Cammer intake and induction!!

[68fastback]

+1, fanatic.... I'd giveup all that gladly. The Boss needs to be lean and mean.

 

I don't think there's any supply prob with the T56, just the 6060, and the T56 is well proven.

 

The '01 Cobra intake is different than the previous ones (the '99 'fiasco' and prior) in that it was a revised design and the first Mustang mod intake to get the abrasive-flow polished-ports. Opening the ports and runners to match the FordGT heads should work well, though it would be nice to have the longest runners the hood height will accept.

 

 

I figure if they start with this in mind:

 

And work off this stylig exercise:

 

 

Use the HD 356-T6-alloy block with billet steel 4-bolt mains like this:

 

 

With forged steel crank like this:

 

 

With these hypereutectic forged pistons (but @ 10.5-11.0:1) with the Manley SVT H-beams like these:

 

 

With a cast alloy full windage tray for the twisties like this Ford GT part:

 

 

These heads from the Ford-GT:

 

 

It could look something like this:

 

 

Wrapped in a package that looks like this (my photoshop skills aren't perfect, but...):

 

 

That'd make me happy for MY'08.

 

<edit:>

 

Of course for MY '10 (just dreaming now) it would need to look more like this big block 10.0L 855HP NA Boss in an SN95:

 

So that when out kids get them they'll make hot-rods with engines (557cid 995HP NA, and 600cid 1200HP NA) like these [are you smiling yet?]:

 

 

Or this legendary ol' SOHC 427 big-block will also just bolt up to the same mounts (takes a few secs to load):

Ford_427_SOHC_in_32_roadster.bmp

 

 

 

-Dan

Ford_427_SOHC_in_32_roadster.bmp

[JETSOLVER]

 

Talk about dreaming in technicolour....You guys have it BAD. Now for the

[68fastback]

Talk about dreaming in technicolour....You guys have it BAD. Now for the

 

 

Yeah, got it bad for sure

 

Btw, those are all Ford GT/mod parts (the upper set of 6 or 7).

 

However, the bottom ones do create some emissions problems. ;-)

 

 

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[MustangFanatic]

Talk about dreaming in technicolour....You guys have it BAD. Now for the

 

 

You have NO idea!!!

 

Yeah, got it bad for sure

 

Btw, those are all Ford GT/mod parts (the upper set of 6 or 7).

 

However, the bottom ones do create some emissions problems. ;-)

 

 

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Emissions?!?!? The only emissions I'm hearing is the sweet harmony of Ford V8 power!!!!

[68fastback]

You have NO idea!!!

Emissions?!?!? The only emissions I'm hearing is the sweet harmony of Ford V8 power!!!!

 

 

 

yeah, I had to toss in a couple of 'non-ULEV compliant' 1000HP NA big-blocks just to keep you happy, Fanatic

 

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[MustangFanatic]

 

yeah, I had to toss in a couple of 'non-ULEV compliant' 1000HP NA big-blocks just to keep you happy, Fanatic

 

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Thanks for feeding my addiction, Dan!!! You