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Who is going with the 725hp option?


LSR

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IMHO The only thing I will say is back when (late 2006) ROUSH helped develope the new FRPP TVS, he advertised 605 hp with a warranty & another option for over 700 HP w/o. Ford made him remove the ad from his wesite within a week or two. I knew then it was something to consider & I'm glad I waited. Nothing against the KB folks, but the FRPP is a way better engineered Ford approved part w/o any short cuts taken like added booster pumps.

 

here's the orignal link to the story

 

http://forum.teamshelby.com/forums/index.p...40&hl=roush

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LSR makes a good point. I started this thread back in Dec 07 just before Evo came out with the TVS stage 1-4. The TVS is a great blower that would solve the strut brace and fuel upgrades with the KB. A catch can, upgraded heat exchanger,UCA/LCA and bumpsteer would be a must for these kind of hp upgrades.

 

http://forum.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13558

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Look what Justin @ VMP has done with the TVS on stock exhaust. On the 605hp you could use the stock blower add the CAI, pulley and tune, save the owners some $$$.

 

Ford Racing TVS Supercharger, VMP Dyno-Tune, VMP 2.6" Upper, VMP 115MM MAF, TB, IW 10% OD balancer

697RWHP/702RWTQ SAE @ 19psi on 116 - highest power TVS through stock exhaust

666RWHP/674RWTQ SAE @ 19psi on 93 pump gas

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IMHO The only thing I will say is back when (late 2006) ROUSH helped develope the new FRPP TVS, he advertised 605 hp with a warranty & another option for over 700 HP w/o. Ford made him remove the ad from his wesite within a week or two. I knew then it was something to consider & I'm glad I waited. Nothing against the KB folks, but the FRPP is a way better engineered Ford approved part w/o any short cuts taken like added booster pumps.

 

here's the orignal link to the story

 

http://forum.teamshelby.com/forums/index.p...40&hl=roush

 

 

 

I do recall.

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Another high point of the Evolution Stage 4 for the TVS that makes 850hp, the car only exhaust mods were Corsa Ultimate Touring Mufflers, no headers or 3 inch exhaust which is just impressive. What if the car tested had headers w 3 inch exhaust, and race fuel? Close to 900hp easy if not 900hp.

 

I know some are not interested in making huge hp numbers and no I am not going to turn my GT500 into a drag racer, but a 850+hp street car, and a Shelby GT500 for that matter, would be too cool. I am not posting all this info. to try and change SAI mind, but just a bit of info. for those who want it.

 

LSR,

 

I think you hit the nail on the head though. I too am waiting to be called for me SS to be done (08SS0067) and I am going to go with the TVS due to all of the reasons you have listed above.

 

The R&D into tuning on the TVS has made this an easy decision for me between the 2 packages.

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I just had my car out for a bit between snow storms. I bought the stage 1 TVS kit from Evo. I put the Ford tune in today and drove it. It pulls HARD and smooth just like the stock blower only MUCH more so. The Evolution tune, just the tune brings immediate throttle and boost and an amazing SOTP increase. How does it get better than this......Cruise to the track on stock tune, 5 min flash to stage 1. RACE. Man I love these cars! :happy feet: :headspin: And the TVS looks stock only better IMO.

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850 HP is not attainable with a TVS. Anything over 700 rwhp is pushing Boost to above a Streetable 93 Octane level (18lb +) and the blower is basically out of efficiency at around 19lbs. A Kenne Bell 2.8HO is a fair superior blower to the TVS...period. And from reading your post I think you are mis-informed and mis-interpurting the power potential of the TVS. Is the TVS a good alternative up to the 700 rwhp mark sure. But to make that power # it has to produce 3lb more boost than KB 2.8. You will need Race Fuel or Torco Octane additive to safely creast the 700 rwhp mark. You are asking for motor issues if you don't !

 

And as a sidenote...You are clueless to what the realiablity of a Boost -a -Pump is. Have there been a few failures, I am sure there have been but based on the amount of BAPs in public use -vs- known failures isnce 2001, it is very low margin for failure. You also have to understand how the unit works before you speak in circles about its performance. The GT 500s Stock Fuel system is near maximum at 700 rwhp and much tweeking in the returnless fuel system parameters needs to be done to get it to sustain that level. The only option is to increase injector size which has been tested with good results. But even with larger injectors more fuel volume is needed to lower the Pump Duty Cycle to a safe margin.

 

Jon L

 

 

Another high point of the Evolution Stage 4 for the TVS that makes 850hp, the car only exhaust mods were Corsa Ultimate Touring Mufflers, no headers or 3 inch exhaust which is just impressive. What if the car tested had headers w 3 inch exhaust, and race fuel? Close to 900hp easy if not 900hp.

 

I know some are not interested in making huge hp numbers and no I am not going to turn my GT500 into a drag racer, but a 850+hp street car, and a Shelby GT500 for that matter, would be too cool. I am not posting all this info. to try and change SAI mind, but just a bit of info. for those who want it.

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850 HP is not attainable with a TVS. Anything over 700 rwhp is pushing Boost to above a Streetable 93 Octane level (18lb +) and the blower is basically out of efficiency at around 19lbs. A Kenne Bell 2.8HO is a fair superior blower to the TVS...period. And from reading your post I think you are mis-informed and mis-interpurting the power potential of the TVS. Is the TVS a good alternative up to the 700 rwhp mark sure. But to make that power # it has to produce 3lb more boost than KB 2.8. You will need Race Fuel or Torco Octane additive to safely creast the 700 rwhp mark. You are asking for motor issues if you don't !

 

And as a sidenote...You are clueless to what the realiablity of a Boost -a -Pump is. Have there been a few failures, I am sure there have been but based on the amount of BAPs in public use -vs- known failures isnce 2001, it is very low margin for failure. You also have to understand how the unit works before you speak in circles about its performance. The GT 500s Stock Fuel system is near maximum at 700 rwhp and much tweeking in the returnless fuel system parameters needs to be done to get it to sustain that level. The only option is to increase injector size which has been tested with good results. But even with larger injectors more fuel volume is needed to lower the Pump Duty Cycle to a safe margin.

 

Jon L

 

 

 

Big-time mis-informed, which causes mis-interpurtations, so what is posted on Evolutions website, stating that the TVS Stage 4 makes 850hp isn't true? :redcard:

 

http://www.evoperform.com/shop/index.php?m...products_id=332

 

 

Thanks for coming and giving your take which is well taken and informative, becuase I know if anyone would know, would be you. All post edited, and I was all excited too, darn.

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Lamonte,

 

To give Evolution benefit of the doubt..... View the post Dyno Graphs 679 corrected and 712 uncorrected.

 

If you use a generic 15% driveline loss. 679RWHP*1.15=780 Flywheel HP, 712RWHP*1.15=818 Flywheel HP. If you take the average of those It would be accurate to say 800 Flywheel Horsepower is possible. If you really turned up the wick on the TVS Stage 4 with Race Fuel and Max Boost it is mathmatically possible to maybe attain 825-830 Flywheel Horsepower using a 15% loss rule. It could be more or slightly less depending on other mods, miles on the Motor ...etc. So that being said I am sure the 850 HP potential was literally aiming towards the Motor itslef. But HP & TQ numbers these days are centered around what is made on a Dyno so that is why its better to just use the Graphs and take them for what the kit will provide.

 

Thanks,

 

Jon L

 

 

 

Big-time mis-informed, which causes mis-interpurtations, so what is posted on Evolutions website, stating that the TVS Stage 4 makes 850hp isn't true? :redcard:

 

http://www.evoperform.com/shop/index.php?m...products_id=332

 

 

Thanks for coming and giving your take which is well taken and informative, becuase I know if anyone would know, would be you. All post edited, and I was all excited too, darn.

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The horsepower is at the crank just like the Ford Racing TVS Kit Advertises (605HP) and the 605HP & 725HP Supersnake.

 

The reason we used that method of marketing was for the "Green" people that were getting confused with the Roush/Ford/and Shelby Marketing.

 

The dyno sheets showing RWHP and RWTQ numbers are posted.

 

Fred

Evolution Performance, Inc.

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Lamonte,

 

To give Evolution benefit of the doubt..... View the post Dyno Graphs 679 corrected and 712 uncorrected.

 

If you use a generic 15% driveline loss. 679RWHP*1.15=780 Flywheel HP, 712RWHP*1.15=818 Flywheel HP. If you take the average of those It would be accurate to say 800 Flywheel Horsepower is possible. If you really turned up the wick on the TVS Stage 4 with Race Fuel and Max Boost it is mathmatically possible to maybe attain 825-830 Flywheel Horsepower using a 15% loss rule. It could be more or slightly less depending on other mods, miles on the Motor ...etc. So that being said I am sure the 850 HP potential was literally aiming towards the Motor itslef. But HP & TQ numbers these days are centered around what is made on a Dyno so that is why its better to just use the Graphs and take them for what the kit will provide.

 

Thanks,

 

Jon L

 

Thanks Jon, well said.

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YOU GUYS ARE WAY OVER MY HEAD ON MOST OF THIS STUFF BUT I HAVE A SLIGHTLY RELATED QUESTION.

 

WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT THE HP AND TORQUE NUMBERS TO BE ON MY 08 WHEN IT COMES BACK AS A SUPER SNAKE? WHAT YOU YOU EXPECT AT THE FLY WHEELAND AT THE REAR WHEELS?

 

BOBH

Bob, as a rule of thumb you can use a 15% driveline loss. Therefore, multiply the 605 HP or 725 HP x .85 to get an approximate RWHP. As far as at the flywheel, it should be as posted by SAI (605 or 725).

 

Dave

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Jon brings up a lot of good points. If you want to make around 670-720ish RWHP the TVS is great, if you want alot more than that, you'll need KB or whipple.

 

I will say though, pound for pound of boost, in my experience, the TVS runs with the KB up until 6000rpm, beyond that the KB starts to take off. However, below that the TVS makes a flatter boost curve and more TQ at 3000rpm (due to more boost).

 

I expect my car to break 700RWHP SAE tomorrow when I try some new exhaust parts.

 

The TVS dyno numbers in my signature are SAE corrected, depending on conditions uncorrected can be much much higher but I don't consider them valid.

 

I will also say, that in the real world, things can be much different. I dynoed about 13 GT500s on sunday at the meet down here in Florida. We had a supersnake with a KB make 596 hot then 619 with a short cooldown, and another stage 3 KB car make low 600s then 637RWHP with a short cooldown. The cooldown consisted of a 2000CFM fan on the lower rad, intercooler pump jumper, and another 2000CFM fan blowing on the engine bay, for about 10 minutes. In the shop I have a little more time to cool them off and more fans. The weather in Florida also tends to be warmer and more humid than what some of the guys up north get. Unless you are carefully controlling conditions, it can be hard to get a really really good number from these cars.

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I opted for the 725 option but had a hard time justifying the cost difference since the Shelby catalog price difference between the TVS and KB blowers is under $1,000. I know the driveshaft doesn't cost 3k.When I inquired at Shelby I got an email response that mentioned labor on the blower install, but having done these before, whether its TVS or KB the labor factor is essentially the same. Have you guys heard anything on what the xtra 4k is for?? Not complaining...just like to know how my money is getting applied.My guess is that down the road the 725HP version may be more rare- whether that will matter only time will tell.

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LSR,

 

I think you hit the nail on the head though. I too am waiting to be called for me SS to be done (08SS0067) and I am going to go with the TVS due to all of the reasons you have listed above.

 

The R&D into tuning on the TVS has made this an easy decision for me between the 2 packages.

 

DOES SAI OFFER OPTIONS LIKE THIS WITHIN THE PACKAGE?

 

BOBH

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DOES SAI OFFER OPTIONS LIKE THIS WITHIN THE PACKAGE?

 

BOBH

 

BOB,

 

I READ IN A POST RECENTLY THAT EVOLUTION AND SAI ARE WORKING ON SOME STUFF NOW. NOT SURE IF IT'S RELATED TO TUNES OR DIFFERENT PACKAGES THAT THEY MAY HAVE AVALIBLE AT SOME TIME.

 

EVO HAS SOME REALLY GOOD STUFF FOR THE TVS AS WELL AS JUSTIN FROM VMP TUNING.

 

SO I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM IF DOWN THE ROAD YOU WANT A LITTLE MORE FROM THE TVS OF DOING A PULLEY AND TUNE SWAP AND GETTING ANOTHER 50-100 RWHP OUT OF IT WITH NO ISSUES THAT I CAN SEE AT THIS POINT.

 

HOPE THAT HELPS.

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BOB,

 

I READ IN A POST RECENTLY THAT EVOLUTION AND SAI ARE WORKING ON SOME STUFF NOW. NOT SURE IF IT'S RELATED TO TUNES OR DIFFERENT PACKAGES THAT THEY MAY HAVE AVALIBLE AT SOME TIME.

 

EVO HAS SOME REALLY GOOD STUFF FOR THE TVS AS WELL AS JUSTIN FROM VMP TUNING.

 

SO I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM IF DOWN THE ROAD YOU WANT A LITTLE MORE FROM THE TVS OF DOING A PULLEY AND TUNE SWAP AND GETTING ANOTHER 50-100 RWHP OUT OF IT WITH NO ISSUES THAT I CAN SEE AT THIS POINT.

 

HOPE THAT HELPS.

You are correct we have been working on some stuff, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it yet.

 

Fred

Evolution Performance, Inc.

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I opted for the 725 option but had a hard time justifying the cost difference since the Shelby catalog price difference between the TVS and KB blowers is under $1,000. I know the driveshaft doesn't cost 3k.When I inquired at Shelby I got an email response that mentioned labor on the blower install, but having done these before, whether its TVS or KB the labor factor is essentially the same. Have you guys heard anything on what the xtra 4k is for?? Not complaining...just like to know how my money is getting applied.My guess is that down the road the 725HP version may be more rare- whether that will matter only time will tell.

 

I still don't know how the 4k price difference is arrived at on the 725HP version when the SAI catalog price difference between blowers is only $870. The driveshaft has to cost something to develop and install but not that much more. Am I missing something??

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I still don't know how the 4k price difference is arrived at on the 725HP version when the SAI catalog price difference between blowers is only $870. The driveshaft has to cost something to develop and install but not that much more. Am I missing something??

And I'm not quite sure on timing, but the exhaust was cut back from full JBA to the Borla's. It' one thing to bump prices up when adding something, but they should be adjusted down when something's been removed. Or replace the now-missing item with something else. Panhard's been added since, anything else? Some documentation, maybe. Now the satin or polish finish on the KB's been added as an option, but again for more. I don't mind paying what I think is reasonable, everyone's got to make a living, but keep it working both ways.

 

Please and thank you.

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