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The Future of All Things Ford / Mustang


Jesse_Bolt

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Mustang Faithful,

 

Get ready for a future of 5.8 and/or 6.2 liter Hurricane engines. (The "old" 4.6 and 5.4 liter modulars will soon be put out to pasture.) The expected [rock &] roll out date for the new V8, or V8s, is 2009. And if the competition's current V8 engine output is any indicator, I would say a 5.8 Hurricane should put out at least 400 and the 6.2-liter version well north of 450. And I don't think it's a fantasy to expect 450 and 500+ respectively.

 

That more than takes care of the GT and GT500 firepower, but what about our entry-level pony, you ask. Well, the current 6 will also exit. In its place, will come the new 263 horse, 3.5-liter V6. A new 6-speed automatic is being promised for the entire Ford line, so you can bet the Mustang will also sport one.

 

The next Mustang restyle date is now 2010. In the mean time, Ford has pledged to offer special versions each model year. The next one in the pipeline, supposedly, is a new Boss 302. Are there any Mercury or Lincoln Mustangs being considered? Yes, Lincoln has worked on a coupe using the Mustang platform, and planners have considered a Mercury version, but production plans either are unclear at this time. My guess: You can bet on at least one of them to get green-lighted for production.

 

Ford is rumoured to be eyeing a RWD sedan. (With DC's 300, Magnum and Charger being runaway hits, go figure.) Two options exist for the platform: A variant of the Mustang or from a all-new platform being developed in Australia. Recently, the case for the Australian version has strengthened. Product chief Kuzak said the next-generation Falcon platform is available as an option that Ford's U.S. product planners could tap. But outside of the Mustang, the emphasis of car development in this [uS] market is on front-wheel-drive platforms with awd capability, he said. I say, anyone have a big boot to kick Kuzak in the ass for that thinking?

 

And that's it for your Mustang news...

 

JB

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Sounds good to me. Is this conjecture or based on some inside knowledge?? Enquiring minds want to know!

 

 

The dude whom posted it is a Ford enthusiast. As for the accuracy, I cannot vouch for that. I wouldn't have shared it if I thought it could be way out of line. To err on the side of safety, I call it rumor.

 

JB

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Mustang Faithful,

 

Get ready for a future of 5.8 and/or 6.2 liter Hurricane engines. (The "old" 4.6 and 5.4 liter modulars will soon be put out to pasture.) The expected [rock &] roll out date for the new V8, or V8s, is 2009. And if the competition's current V8 engine output is any indicator, I would say a 5.8 Hurricane should put out at least 400 and the 6.2-liter version well north of 450. And I don't think it's a fantasy to expect 450 and 500+ respectively.

 

That more than takes care of the GT and GT500 firepower, but what about our entry-level pony, you ask. Well, the current 6 will also exit. In its place, will come the new 263 horse, 3.5-liter V6. A new 6-speed automatic is being promised for the entire Ford line, so you can bet the Mustang will also sport one.

 

The next Mustang restyle date is now 2010. In the mean time, Ford has pledged to offer special versions each model year. The next one in the pipeline, supposedly, is a new Boss 302. Are there any Mercury or Lincoln Mustangs being considered? Yes, Lincoln has worked on a coupe using the Mustang platform, and planners have considered a Mercury version, but production plans either are unclear at this time. My guess: You can bet on at least one of them to get green-lighted for production.

 

Ford is rumoured to be eyeing a RWD sedan. (With DC's 300, Magnum and Charger being runaway hits, go figure.) Two options exist for the platform: A variant of the Mustang or from a all-new platform being developed in Australia. Recently, the case for the Australian version has strengthened. Product chief Kuzak said the next-generation Falcon platform is available as an option that Ford's U.S. product planners could tap. But outside of the Mustang, the emphasis of car development in this [uS] market is on front-wheel-drive platforms with awd capability, he said. I say, anyone have a big boot to kick Kuzak in the ass for that thinking?

 

And that's it for your Mustang news...

 

JB

 

 

the 265hp 3.5 engine is already a done deal in the new 2007 edge in about 2 months

 

engine will be going into a bunch of other cars too

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the 265hp 3.5 engine is already a done deal in the new 2007 edge in about 2 months

 

engine will be going into a bunch of other cars too

 

 

You are correct, and Ford has stated it will eventually be shipping in over 40% of Ford products. It's slick, for a V6.

 

I think the (blue) post is correct that the hurricane is coming back, but wrong that it will replace the modular family. The motivation is supposedly a bigger cube engine for the trucks and a perfect starting point for hi-po goodies to go against the Hemis and LS7/9 Camaro. I sure hope it's the 4-bolt main side-oiler, though the FRP 460 (same block) at 514cid is race-certified to 1,500HP and it's a 2-bolt! Shelby is also making (through his CA engine builder/developer) a 427 4-bolt side-oiler with siamise-sleeved cylinders just like the racing 427s of the 60s. It's to satisfy folks who want an authentic CS 427 Cobra, but certainly all the race goodies would apply :) Sure hope they do an S/DOHC version of the Hurrcane. If GM releases the 8.3L 900HP from development (the've already registered the name LS-X this past week) we'll need it!

 

Hot rumor is that Ford will soon be announcing BOSS as their Hi-Po engine 'brand.' So maybe we'll see a GT350 with a "BOSS-nnn" motor in it (just me speculating).

 

I think the new Mustang will have other rear-wheel derivatives (CV/GM/LC-panther replacements if not from the D30), and the '10 mustang will most likely get the slick Dana IRS presently used in the Aussie Falcon GT-P (to rave reviews) IMO -- as standard!. It's a world-class IRS developed by Dana Australia and built right at the Ford plant site in an adjacent building. Dana and Ford have a decades-long relationship so cloning that approach here should be a no-brainer, as long a Ford commits the volumes and a new IRS-standard mustang is long overdue IMHO, and the Camaro will have IRS. From what I've heard Dana is anxious to do it here too -- it's a win-win, I think, and the existing Aussie has proven robust.

 

I don't think you'll see actual product lifted in total from Australia (ala the Holden/GTO), but I do think you'll see direct sharing at a total-systems engineering level with Ford Australia, Jaguar and Volvo in the next few years -- some slick state-of-the-art parts/systems like variable-vane turbo (Ford Au), all-in-one Torsen transaxle-IRS (Jag) and an industrial strength smart-AWD system (Volvo)

 

Btw, that slick new V6 is a beautifylly made engine (saw it on a stand at NYIAS in April) 265HP out of the box and I was told there's plenty of over-design strength for a variable-vane turbo or s/c, though I haven't heard any specific (or rumored) plans in that vein. It's made in England and huge new plant capacity was recently committed for the US (at the English facility).

 

Ford is already shipping the 6-speed auto (only US mfgr who has one) for a year now. It's bee well accepted and I've heard Ford will dump the CVT at the end of this year and go 6-spd auto instead (presently there's a choice in the 500 but must be CVT to get AWD -- was dumb move... gets fixed on '07), since mileage difference is negligable and the 6-spd is stronger.

 

----------------------

 

Want DOHC Hurricane NOW! :sos:

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Hot rumor is that Ford will soon be announcing BOSS as their Hi-Po engine 'brand.' So maybe we'll see a GT350 with a "BOSS-nnn" motor in it (just me speculating).

 

Want DOHC Hurricane NOW! :sos:

 

I agree that this is the "branding exercise" due to be released soon. Ford in Australia has rated the Boss series of engine based on power output(in Metric though) for some time. Makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint. Its cheap and loud. I just pray however that some of the SE's are more than marketing exercises, otherwise they could quite easily kill another good idea with no substance to back it up. The only reason that Boss has any currancy left is they had the good grace to kill it after slathering it all over the 71 fastbacks. They are known for taking the easy way out some times. Anyone recall the 83 "Cobra"(just threw up in my mouth a little) with its weird spiderweb sticker? Took them 10 years to recover from that little gem....I sometimes wonder how close they came to blowing the MACH name by using it on the stereo in the SN's. Bet it took some screaming to make a reintroduced MACH 1 into a real good car. :victory:

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I agree that this is the "branding exercise" due to be released soon. Ford in Australia has rated the Boss series of engine based on power output(in Metric though) for some time. Makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint. Its cheap and loud. I just pray however that some of the SE's are more than marketing exercises, otherwise they could quite easily kill another good idea with no substance to back it up. The only reason that Boss has any currancy left is they had the good grace to kill it after slathering it all over the 71 fastbacks. They are known for taking the easy way out some times. Anyone recall the 83 "Cobra"(just threw up in my mouth a little) with its weird spiderweb sticker? Took them 10 years to recover from that little gem....I sometimes wonder how close they came to blowing the MACH name by using it on the stereo in the SN's. Bet it took some screaming to make a reintroduced MACH 1 into a real good car. :victory:

 

 

+1 and chuckling -- glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way. So a 'GT350' as a striping option on the Fusion would not cut it with you, JET? :hysterical2:

 

Re '83 "cobra" ...carefull, I made a negative comment on the '74-78 mustang-II a while back and got a PM-love-letter from the Mustang-II Exhaust-pipe Masturbaters Association of Notrh America. It was embarassing! What could I say? I still have to stiffle a chuckle over that but I've come to better appreciate some of the, ahem, inner beauty of the '76-78 Cobra-II enemic-V8-and-giant-decal-option approach (not! ...they made me say that! please, no PMs! Back, back! <holding my silver cross and oak stake high>)

:ninja:

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I still have to stiffle a chuckle over that but I've come to better appreciate some of the, ahem, inner beauty of the '76-78 Cobra-II enemic-V8-and-giant-decal-option approach (not! ...they made me say that! please, no PMs! Back, back! <holding my silver cross and oak stake high>)

:ninja:

 

Priceless! Now all we need is a "Smilie" of a vampire hunter with his silver cross/oak stake and we'd have everything we'll ever need.

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+1 and chuckling -- glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way. So a 'GT350' as a striping option on the Fusion would not cut it with you, JET? :hysterical2:

 

Re '83 "cobra" ...carefull, I made a negative comment on the '74-78 mustang-II a while back and got a PM-love-letter from the Mustang-II Exhaust-pipe Masturbaters Association of Notrh America. It was embarassing! What could I say? I still have to stiffle a chuckle over that but I've come to better appreciate some of the, ahem, inner beauty of the '76-78 Cobra-II enemic-V8-and-giant-decal-option approach (not! ...they made me say that! please, no PMs! Back, back! <holding my silver cross and oak stake high>)

:ninja:

 

Now, be careful 68...

Remember the '72 Maverick I was telling you guys about that my brother and I built way back?

Well, that brother has in his garage, RIGHT NOW, a '78 M-II that he is building.

Although, it is only M-II in body (full cage, street slicks, stroker). He just might get "upset" with your words. :fan:

Mind you, I'm 6'-4" and 220, and he still scares me a little...

 

All in good fun!

 

But trust me, it will be wicked when he finishes it. We keep threatening to race each other for Pinks once his M-II and my 'chero are done, but we're brothers, never happen. Maybe race for a case though.

 

Mike.

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Now, be careful 68...

Remember the '72 Maverick I was telling you guys about that my brother and I built way back?

Well, that brother has in his garage, RIGHT NOW, a '78 M-II that he is building.

Although, it is only M-II in body (full cage, street slicks, stroker). He just might get "upset" with your words. :fan:

Mind you, I'm 6'-4" and 220, and he still scares me a little...

 

All in good fun!

 

But trust me, it will be wicked when he finishes it. We keep threatening to race each other for Pinks once his M-II and my 'chero are done, but we're brothers, never happen. Maybe race for a case though.

 

Mike.

 

 

lol... you mean the cross and stake doesn;t work! :doh:

 

And that short wheelbase really transfers, I bet :)

 

I had to chuckle at JETSOLVER's "just threw up in my mouth a little" ...I'm still chuckling...

 

..your bro sounds like someone not to mess with :baby:

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I agree that this is the "branding exercise" due to be released soon. Ford in Australia has rated the Boss series of engine based on power output(in Metric though) for some time. Makes perfect sense from a marketing standpoint. Its cheap and loud. I just pray however that some of the SE's are more than marketing exercises, otherwise they could quite easily kill another good idea with no substance to back it up. The only reason that Boss has any currancy left is they had the good grace to kill it after slathering it all over the 71 fastbacks. They are known for taking the easy way out some times. Anyone recall the 83 "Cobra"(just threw up in my mouth a little) with its weird spiderweb sticker? Took them 10 years to recover from that little gem....I sometimes wonder how close they came to blowing the MACH name by using it on the stereo in the SN's. Bet it took some screaming to make a reintroduced MACH 1 into a real good car. :victory:

 

 

 

+2...the Boss nameplate is one of the few remaining that Ford hasn't sold out to an image only exercise without any real performance content. Personally, I'd like to see Ford brand the Hurricane engine family with the Cobra Jet moniker and reserve the Boss for a legitimate Hi-Po Mustang. As a group of enthusiasts we must continue to rant if necessary to be sure Ford gets the message - create a legitimate Boss Mustang with major under hood muscle and a serious suspension and braking package to back it up. Please Ford, don't cheapen the Boss nameplate with a marketing only creation.

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+2...the Boss nameplate is one of the few remaining that Ford hasn't sold out to an image only exercise without any real performance content. Please Ford, don't cheapen the Boss nameplate with a marketing only creation.

 

Ford didn't but Shinoda did. I get a smile out of the fact that the biggest part of the deal for him(B4 he passed on to early) was the fact that he put cupholders in the HUGE rear spoiler. "I always wanted one like that for sitting around in parking lots and talking cars", he said. A none to subtle stab at a certain type of car enthusiast I think. :hysterical: After the latest anouncments I fear we are going to see a whole bunch of stickers in our future. Did you check the post from Amy the Shelby pres. on how legit the scoop on the GT-whatever is? To paraphrase (breathlessly)....its got a genuine molded copy of the aluminum COBRA scoop with the rivets' bumps and all. :censored::sos: I've had a couple of looks at the stang airbox and I feel pretty comfortable in guessing that not only is it not functional, its not even gonna be a hole. Not that there is appparently much room for real class leading engineering anymore. Especially now that there IS finally a class again :banghead: I know that gasoline is the enemy right now, but is there NOBODY at Ford left who is a flat out car enthusiast who can carry our case for pure unadulterated PERFORMANCE to the muckity-mucks? I swear the coolest new idea for the BOSS might be to have ABSOLUTELY NO VINYL on it. How about that for a BOLD new idea? Just spend the $ on performance and sell the stickers in the service dept. next to the branded coffee mugs and the espresso machine.
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I swear the coolest new idea for the BOSS might be to have ABSOLUTELY NO VINYL on it. How about that for a BOLD new idea? Just spend the $ on performance and sell the stickers in the service dept. next to the branded coffee mugs and the espresso machine.

 

 

Amen to that!!! :roses: Provide a true high performance pony car to those of us who desire and appreciate one and leave the vinyl to the posers. Save a vinyl tree, no more stripes!! :hysterical:

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I swear the coolest new idea for the BOSS might be to have ABSOLUTELY NO VINYL on it. How about that for a BOLD new idea? Just spend the $ on performance and sell the stickers in the service dept. next to the branded coffee mugs and the espresso machine.

 

 

+2

 

--------------

 

I think it's ironic that the new Shinoda Boss styling exercise got the fewest votes here int he SU poll -- too 'ricer' looking. And even though I thought the original Boss was, well, BOSSlooking, I'd de-opt all stripes on my ride -- but that's just me. <edit: I take that back.. not just me!!>

 

Ford, let the SVT engineering team make it a real Boss and Shinoda's family can license the vinyl as aftermarket BS.

 

Hell, then Shelby can apply them and the dealers can empty our pockets with $10K ADMs gain: call it a Shelby Boss GT (ugh!)

 

If it's really successful, it'll convert a few ricers who can then add 3' chin spoilers and 'superbird-esque' wings with spoiler-bak exhaust systems up through the holes :hysterical:

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+2

 

--------------

 

I think it's ironic that the new Shinoda Boss styling exercise got the fewest votes here int he SU poll -- too 'ricer' looking. And even though I thought the original Boss was, well, BOSSlooking, I'd de-opt all stripes on my ride -- but that's just me. <edit: I take that back.. not just me!!>

 

Ford, let the SVT engineering team make it a real Boss and Shinoda's family can license the vinyl as aftermarket BS.

 

Hell, then Shelby can apply them and the dealers can empty our pockets with $10K ADMs gain: call it a Shelby Boss GT (ugh!)

 

If it's really successful, it'll convert a few ricers who can then add 3' chin spoilers and 'superbird-esque' wings with spoiler-bak exhaust systems up through the holes :hysterical:

 

 

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

 

Maybe they could just called it the Shinodooda Mustang... :eek5:

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:o Guys, lets not leave those thoughts up there on a thread about the future of Mustangs :eek5: Just in case somebody is looking. As further cud to masticate, what is to happen to the GT platform now? I have seen rumours that Ford might be looking at a V-10 modular similar to both the one in the BOSS 351 stang of a few years ago, and the one in the COBRA concept roadster, to take up the capacity lost to the end of the GT run. Is it time for a COBRA? (it might kill off our dreams for a KR, but could sure compete very short term to the Z06, yes) :yup: ? And it might be easier that trying to extend the Mustang line even further up the $ scale when I think its pretty obvious it has pretty much reached its line of price resistance.

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:o Guys, lets not leave those thoughts up there on a thread about the future of Mustangs :eek5: Just in case somebody is looking. As further cud to masticate, what is to happen to the GT platform now? I have seen rumours that Ford might be looking at a V-10 modular similar to both the one in the BOSS 351 stang of a few years ago, and the one in the COBRA concept roadster, to take up the capacity lost to the end of the GT run. Is it time for a COBRA? (it might kill off our dreams for a KR, but could sure compete very short term to the Z06, yes) :yup: ? And it might be easier that trying to extend the Mustang line even further up the $ scale when I think its pretty obvious it has pretty much reached its line of price resistance.

 

 

yes, Ford needs to build an end all be all Z06 / Viper/ Challenger and now Camaro "killer" in terms of performance and price.

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yes, Ford needs to build an end all be all Z06 / Viper/ Challenger and now Camaro "killer" in terms of performance and price.

 

 

I agree Ford has to compete against those models, however, there shouldn't be a single entry from Ford to compete against such a wide a variety of competition from other manufacturers.

 

An SVT Mustang offering should be slotted to compete against the Challenger and Camaro, with either modular or Hurricane motivation. Ford's current strategy to develop (even in partnership with Shelby) S/E Mustangs will enable Ford to provide alternatives to the competition from DC and GM.

 

However, an SVT Mustang cannot compete against the likes of the Viper and the Z06 without creating serious compromises. The Mustang is a Pony car, that seats 4 and provides sporty, affordable performance. The Viper and Z06 are purpose-built, 2 seat exotic sports cars. To compete against that genre, a Shelby GT or GR-1 should be introduced with at least 600 hp. Personally, the GR-1 is gorgeous and I would love to see Ford offer one as a production model. Engine choice could be either a V10 or possibly a variant of the Hurricane.

 

As a final thought, it has occurred to me that the recent partnership with Shelby may usher in a new era for Ford. Since it is a well documented fact that Ford is having trouble producing limited edition, limited production Mustangs like the GT500 at Flat Rock, could Ford be looking at other partnerships to produce special edition Mustangs? Consider this: Saleen has essentially produced a Boss Mustang with the PJ Saleen. Could we be looking at a potential partnership between Saleen and Ford to produce the Boss? Given the GT debacle, the relationship between the two is certainly in jeopardy but given the recent developments, it might be a realistic assumption. I'm not certain of Saleen's production capabilities for their own models plus additional work from Ford. Thoughts?

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I was under the impression (but not sure) that Shinoda's family actually has some rights to the Boss moniker since Larry is the creator of the original Boss design, yes? I'm wondering if Ford might not be trying to work out some arrangement with the family for a new Boss -- just speculation on my part, but Ford is loyal to its friends and they appreciate what that original design work has meant to Ford's cars and possibly bottom line. But I digress ;-)

 

I've thought the V10 mod was the logical next step in the mustang for a long time now. Even the DOHC V10 roadster engine would seen a good physical fit with the present mustang engine bay. In alloy it would be lighter than the GT500 motor and strokes to 427 (for symbolic reasons) though at 3.55 bore with the 5.4's stroke you wind up at about 412cid, plenty adequate. Also with the nice-revving slightly oversquare 4.6's stroke, it comes in at precisely 351 (ding! ding!). Even being conservtive on emissions nums, I think that would easily yield 400-425HP n.a. -- very nice Boss 351. Though 90-degree V10s are often notorious for odd crank harmonics, the mod V10's I've seen in trucks are very smooth -- mentioning this only because that might be more important at 7,000 rpm in a Boss than a 4,800 in a truck, dunno

 

I was jumping on the big-block rumors (Cleveland plant did get a 385-series casting order in March, according to several sources) even though ostensibly just for the trucks, because when to work was let out on the Hurricane, the Ford exec that was questioned (can't remember who) quipped, to the effect: 'we'd never make a motor for just one platform.' I don't believe that was an innocent comment (tho it could have been).

 

Both paths offer a lot of potential, even for a low-vol KR as well as more nich-vehicle Bosses and Machs, but if Ford ever plans on re-entering NHRA pro-stock, it has to be the Hurricane (or something completely new -- +/- zero chance of that, I think) and Bob Glidden is now free his contract with Don Schumacher ;-)

 

Well, this is just the logic of an old strategist and even if my logic taps sound options, it doesn't mean Ford goes either of these routes for the hi-po r.w.d segment (my arbitrary segmentation) but large corporations, like Ford, develop distinct personalities that make them somewhat more predictable -- like it does an old friend. You noted, jetsolver, in an earlier post how Ford has been know to take the easy way out and you are so correct. Now this is where I get bogged down: which is easier/cheaper betw V10 and big-block and which offers the best PR bang overall to FoMoCo?

 

Unfortunately I see some conflicts that I don't have enough hard facts to even apply strategy toward (thinking out loud):

 

-The base SOHC 6.8L V10-3V would make a nice future GT base-motor -- emissions and power you can do in quantity, but not an inexpenive motor.

 

-The V10 DOHC exists as a solid enginering prototype (they didn't show the press power-brake burnouts with the [Cobra-II] roadster for nothing -- that was telegraphing a degree of engineering work, I think

 

-There's at least some serious engineering work done on the blown V10 DOHC tri-fuel with s/c-on-demand controls (clutched blower, etc), though the tri-fuel aspects are seemingly moot here for now.

 

-Much of the mod family's parts are interchangeable at an internals level -- a V10 hi-po program is somewhat a parts-bin build. Plenty of FRPP/aftermarket parts to draw on too -- important if you want the aftermarket to embrace it quickly.

 

BUT:

 

-V10-DOHC is not nearly an adequate base for a [Ford-backed] Pro-stock showcase (Ford's absence has irked many for a long time -- out- and inside Ford!) -- even the V10 can't stroke with sane rod angles and oil-ring designs to the 500cid NHRA Pro-S limit given the mod series deck height, but the 385-series/hurricane does (especially with the 10.3" deck-height variant). Then again, maybe Ford has permanently written off NHRA pro-stock, convincing themselves that there's not adequate brandspace (so wrong! it's the brandspace posterchild of NHRA!) If so that's sad, because it's the only NHRA pro class that gets top ESPN billing 20+ times a year and mandates manufacturer blocks -- it's the ultimate brand arena, more so than even NASCAR who, while mandating homologated motors, plays brand down so the manufacturers can't hold them hostage and gate-sales arent affected as much if one brand dominates (remember the SOHC 427 debacle of the 60s -- NASCAR won that pissing contest but Ford was miffed to say the least [your engine is too fast, so you can't run it!]). This path (big-block) seems more expensive, but poses the opportunity for much richer PR, branding and sales rewards if Ford is serious about hi-po r.w.d/mustang racing and a serious presence in NHRA pro-stock.

 

-I guess the venerable old thin-wall-cast series 302/351 deserves mention, but I can't see business merit in the rumors because they're pushrod motors AND don't give all that much more displacement potential over the mods. Yes, with 4.0" bores the 351C's tall deck strokes to the magic 427, but rod angles start getting to the point that I can't see Ford releasing a 427 on that base as a production engine -- even though many aftermarket engine builders do from World and the Engine Factory to Rousch and FRPP -- and some of GM's Vette motors are pushing those limits, but using very expensive components to do it (justifiable at the Z06 Vette's price points, not our mustang's). And if you're not going to the magic 427 at some point, why bother with pushrods when the mods are better motors, IMHO, especially given emissions considerations. Even if Ford brings the 385-series back, I think it's got to be at least an SOHC design like the base V10.

 

 

In the context of a revised MY'10 mustang (w/ Dana IRS?) I think the same engine considerations apply except more accutely since the muscle-car wars will be gatting to full bloom by then. Can the V10 cover that ground? With a blower I think so. Is it the best choice for us and Ford? I'm not smart enough to know with any certainty but my gut says it will be more attractive to Ford if it costs less.

 

I'm betting Ford will just keep both the V10 and big-block options open in that order -- ever conservative to not spend a dollar if it's not abolutely necessary. Maybe therein lies the S/DOHC-big-block rub.

 

.

 

 

 

To compete against that genre, a Shelby GT or GR-1 should be introduced with at least 600 hp. Personally, the GR-1 is gorgeous and I would love to see Ford offer one as a production model. Engine choice could be either a V10 or possibly a variant of the Hurricane.

 

 

+1 There's a real market for the GR-1, I think. And at its pricepoints I don;t think it steps on any mustang toes. It's also, IMO, an awesome and potentially less costly, follow-on to the Ford GT. Getting reflex muscle twitches just drooling on it! ;-)

 

.

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Shinoda owns the rights to Shinoda Boss, but not to the Boss name, therefore it appears Ford has the rights to use it as they so choose. See the article link below:

 

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/index.php?c...p2_articleid=58

 

I would say from a historical perspective, it would be nice to see the Shinoda family involved. However, their recent renditions do not give me a great deal of comfort that they could produce a car reminiscent of the original without being seriously over-wrought.

 

Dan, I understand your logic and desire behind Ford's return to Pro Stock racing, however, Ford has long since given up on that form of motorsports, instead choosing to engage primarily in oval track racing. Even back in the Glidden days, he was many times running without factory support, being the sole supporter for the Ford brand in that arena. I have always been a huge Glidden fan but I owe much of his success to his desire and talent and less to Ford's involvement. Certainly the NHRA has a strong following but ProStock doesn't rival the appeal of NASCAR. That said, it is sad that Ford has chosen to not participate the door slammer class leaving it to those Brand X marques.

 

The V10 concept certainly has merit but I don't see Ford going that direction IF they introduce the Hurricane engine. I also don't think a V10 would be capable of the rev range desired in a Mustang do to the crank harmonics you mentioned. I would also agree that the Hurricane would likely only be offered in a SOHC variety.

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Great stuff! I wonder if we should be charging Ford a consulting fee(equivelant to a dealer ADM on a GT500 perhaps :lol: )for all the heavy thinking you guys are doing. A couple of things jump out. First we have to remember a Mustang, as Fanatic said, has to be FUNDEMENTALY cheap. That means a V-8 for historic, marketing and engineering reasons. Not to preclude a V-10 SE, however it would have to fit in a platform optimised for a V-8. And they only use those in trucks. So unless they can quickly cast one in Aluminum I wouldn't want it for the same reasons I will never be happy with the iron block 5.4. Weight and balance. A V-10's length would have to come from forward of the axle as the firewall is fixed and I doubt they are going to move that even in the redesign/update of the S-197.(I think rather, that they are getting ready to find other uses for that platform. So a reskin/detail tweak yes, a reengineering, I doubt it(but would LOVE ot be proven wrong. :cheerleader: ) We know so little about basic Hurricane design bullets that I have a hard time trying to envision anything BUT a mod at this point. I think we can all agree that the Mod is plenty good, has room for growth(the 3 valves are a legit 350 horse engine with little tweaking) and we already have multiple variations. And it has been produced in volume with aluminium blocks. I would think Ford has more than amortized its costs for the hard parts on the MOD(is it still one of the worlds best engines :shrug: ) and might be inclined to push it a little further(I think they may have the Electronics about ready to handle that option as well) Dan I hear your cry for the lima(385) series, but without further knowledge of the hurricane(H), I wonder if it could be brought far enough into the future to use it in all the trucks, especially with truck sales dropping, and future emissions legislation, let alone the marketing(how green is Ford going to want to be?) And that leads me to another thought. Is Ford having to anticipate European style pedestrian safety regs. with all that that implies for hood height etc.? that may have an effect on a tall deck engine.(not to mention CG issues.) All in all, I still see a 5.4 mod using the best head available as the cheapest option. And I'll be back later with a bit of an interesting take on that IRS thing Dan :woohoo: (got some interesting stuff about that Aussie platform for us.)

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Hey Jetsolver, I love that idea!! Have Ford make a direct deposit into my account...my consulting fee has an ADM of $20K!! :hysterical:

 

I think your assessment of the possibility of a V10 in the Mustang is accurate. Unless Ford retools in the entire engine in aluminum, it would add even more weight to an already portly Mustang plus create any even further front weight bias issue. As Dan alluded to, a V10 would not be inexpensive which would push the price of the Mustang even further out of reach for the average enthusiast. Additionally, I would think there would be considerable outcry from the Mustang faithful if their beloved Pony car had anything other than a rip-snorting V8 under the hood of the high performance models.

 

As I've stated repeatedly, I would prefer a 5.0L all-aluminum engine making approximately 400 hp under the hood of my Boss. I'd certainly love to see Ford offer two Boss models, a road race inspired Boss 302 and a street bruiser Boss 351 (or something similar) with either a naturally aspirated 5.4L or Hurricane engine derivative.

 

While a re-engineered 385 series would certainly be welcomed by everyone (including myself) I don't see Ford having the R&D dollars or the guts to follow that idea through to fruition. I'd love to be wrong, so Ford go head, prove me wrong!! :)

 

I'll eagerly anticpate a further discussion on the Dana IRS!!

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Let me just say what a joy it is to interact with you guys on this. Such great insights and genuinely reasoned points, not to mention good humor ;-)

 

Fanatic, your points on Glidden are well-taken as he was rightly bitter toward Ford toward the end for their increasing lack of support (amazing guy -- I think he still holds the honors for the most NHRA pro class season championships at 14 or so, most of them on his own!). Of course, money and a contract could cure all that, but I too fear Ford has given up on NHRA Pro-stock <sigh!> I was just trying to explore what paths might be viable and their realtive merits in the [less than likely] event Ford might want to renovate their NHRA posture. On a scale of 1-10 likelihood, I fear it's only a 2 or 3?

 

Thanks for the pointer to the Boss Shinoda article -- I hand't seen that. I had in the back of my mind something to the effect that Ford didn't (doesn't?) own Boss name outright. Maybe that's in the "reached an agreement.. [on] ..ownership of the BOSS Shinoda trademark ... details of the agreement are confidential" part of the Ford-Shinoda agreement. Those type of words often mean someone paid for stepping on someone's 'toe' or agreed to the boundaries of the once-offended 'toe' in the future. So maybe that's it.

 

I also agree with JETSOLVER that Ford would like to only reskin for MY '10, but I can't see that holding up against an IRS Camaro with similar price points and engine mix: V6 - V8 - hi-poV8, dunno. But I don't think an alloy 385-series requires much reinvention -- they were produced by Ford in all-alloy siamesed-cylinder race-trim going back to the 60s even though most were iron (the 385 series engine must hold some record for displacement/block/head variations, including 352, 390, 406, several 427s, a couple of 428s, a few 429s, 460 [not to mention the plethora of truck and Linc/Merc cid variations] plus 2-bolt, 4-bolt, 4+2-bolt, side-oiler, conventional, wedges, SOHC, crescent/hemi, wet sleeved, dry-siamese sleeved, unsleeved, iron, pig-iron, alloy <yikes!>) But the one I'm ogling is the the 427 4-bolt or 4+2bolt, dry-siamesed, alloy, side-oiler with the SOHC heads. The simpler wet-sleeved longer stroke version is fine too, since no need for ultra-high revs. Unfortunately, still might be a considerable amount of engineering, because anything from the 60s probably exists only as hardcopy drawings and would have to be re-created in the computer. Still, very well-understood designs do exist that remain compatible with the aftermarket work that still continues where Ford left off.

 

Do you guys feel the mod family can show well against the LS7? I think that's the minimum hi-water mark around MY '10. And if GM really does have an 8.3L 900HP monster motor in development, what could they put it in that Ford couldn't put a big block in (the tall-deck 460 strokes to 10liters). Without a big-block, Ford is hamstrung at about 5.6 for the mod V8, and about 7.0 for the V10, and if you want good revs at those displacements add about $4k for titanium rods (like the 'vette). I don't know. Either the mustang goes big-block OR can't compete <did I say that?> OR Ford goes modular in another lighter-weight RWD car. Am I missing something? Not that a 450HP NA Boss V8 wouldn't be fun but, with my Ford hat on, that's not vaguely competitive in MY '10 IMO.

 

Here's a link on the Dana IRS Dana IRS. The application specific unit in the Aussie GT-P uses stout leading torque-arms not shown on the Dana site but this link shows that better and adds some insightful commentaryDana IRS - in GT-P And this is an Aussie review of the Falcon GT-P (not much on the IRS) Aussie GT-P

 

Fyi, Ford Australia also have a "FPV Super Pursuit" answer to the SVT Lightning that's gotta be a kick! FPV Super Pursuit

 

<edit:>

Jetsolver, I missed your point on the 385-series as a truck motor.... yeah, I had heard that the motivation to bring back the big-block is the F-series vis-a-vis sales losses to Ram/Hemi. So, if I was SVT, I'd like that the trucks will pay for all the basic reengineering and then I can tweak on that to a hi-po Mustang motor :) Also fits with the 'we'd never do new motor for a single platform' thinking too.

 

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Here's an update from SA on some of the questions I posed over at SA Forums recently. Some encouraging insights, I think, especially the bottommost paragraph (her words are in blue -- light blue is my emphasis):

 

-----------------------------------------

 

QUOTE(68fastback @ Aug 12 2006, 07:33 PM)

 

Amy, concerning making the Shelby GT in LV, can you give a rough idea of production volumes anticipated on the Shelby GT (realizing it can change of course based on a variety of things)?

 

I believe we stated publically, or mark fields did, it will be under 10K, we are still finalizing.Aside from gear ratios, what do you plan to install in LasVegas? FRPP power packs (CAI/exhaust)? It would seem all of that can be done more cost effectively in Flat Rock. Or are you getting a special group option build from Ford and then doing some final fit-up in Las Vegas? It would seem crazy to be swapping rear axles again out in Las Vegas, yes? Appreciate your thoughts on this because I'm confused right now -- are these Shelby-serialed cars?

>> I think the main point to understand is that it is very hard for ford to make small runs on the line in less then a year turnaround. We are their "hit the ground running" partner. They give us advice, help with certification and are a true partner, we give them speed. we have the suspension kit, x pipe. The axels are not currently a line item, so hence we have to do it. It works ok.

 

I'm assuming they'll be sold through Ford dealers, or is the widespread talk that Shelby Autos cannot sell Shelbys directly under the contract with Ford inaccurate? Appreciate if you can clarify these points now that the car is anounced.

 

The partnership with Ford is that we will do everything with and thru them. That is why it is important to conform and comply to the regulations and systems.

Thanks Amy

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Amy, thanks so much for your quick and thoughtful response.

 

Makes much more sense in that context and leaves the door open for some special SA work in the future -- nice win-win, I think. Hope you can convince Ford to be a little less conservative than they traditionally are. With Camaro and Challenger coming Ford will need an quick-response build team to complement Hau Tai-Tang and SVT/FRPP folks for sure. Let's hope we don't need the ADM police on these cars so some working folks can afford them.

 

Thanks again... -Dan

 

PS - with the Hurricane/385-series motor looking like it may be coming back into production, I would think SA's 427 side-oiler goodies (thru Venice CA shop) might be a real Godsend. If Ford were to serve you up a big-block MY '10 revised mustang, kicking it up into a KR or offering the parts as a kit might be a nice venture. Good luck and success to all involved as this renewed relationship with Ford finds its sea legs -- I know everyone I talk with is excited by the possibilities.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Dan, I appreciate all the support here and elsewhere

 

Everything that is said on the boards is the samething we thought about here, but cost, epa, etc, all made us wonder if we should get out a car that is completely customizable and fun. We do have other cars in the works, that might be more popular with the HP crowd....lol

 

As an FYI, we talk to Ford, SVT and FRP all the time, so some of the things you mentioned are absoluetly a possibility. We know more soon.

 

thanks again and if I can ever answer anything don't hesitate to write.

 

Amy

 

PS- these are shelby serialized cars in the registry, and we are currently capable of manufacturing about 100+a week right now. I think you asked me this somewhere, but I might not have answered in all the posts.

 

<edited to remove unintentional smiley sunglasses which happended from the "B" in "Amy B" followed by a parenthesis, like this B) >

 

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